Questions Over Lore

[silverblade5445]

I very much doubt that even all the 9 Nazgul together would be stronger than Gandalf...especially Gandalf the White...since he is a Maia (despite being in the mortal frame) AND he has Narya that Cirdan gave him....

The Nazgul were only wraiths and Glorfindel nor any of the high elves were afraid of them because as Legolas himself said, those who had lived in the Blessed Realm dint fear them (wraiths) and they had great power over both the Seen and the Unseen.....Gandalf would definitely count under more than just "lived" in the Blessed Realm.....The Nazgul's power is just so feared because its stems from Sauron himself....

But since no such standoff actually takes place in any of the books, there will never be conclusive evidence of the fact...although considering he fought off five Nazgul alone at night when they are strongest, when he was just Gandalf the Grey would atleast give some measure of his strength.....


Also about Ungoliant yeah.....she was exceptionally powerful....someone who can bring down the most powerful Vala like Melkor to the level of screaming for help, thats wickedly powerful....

He doesn't lose. They kill each other, so it's a tie.
And if by the elven king you mean Feänor, he didn't cut them down, he just fought them for a while, and was in fact killed by them in the end.

I think the OP meant Fingolfin who apparently did fight balrogs since he had sieged Angband and even wounded Morgoth seven times in a duel....even Morgoth feared him....

[Gui_Incognito]

Glorfindel himself slew 3 Balrogs in the First Age. Chris Tolkien said that the Balrogs were in a pretty weak stage then, and Durin's Bane was a particularly strong Balrog by the Third Age.

Glorfindel battled one Balrog during the escape from Gondolin and they both fell from the peak and died. As far as I know this was the only instance of an elf killing a Balrog.

[Haunt123]

Glorfindel battled one Balrog during the escape from Gondolin and they both fell from the peak and died. As far as I know this was the only instance of an elf killing a Balrog.

My bad, you're right.
But that's not the only instance: remember Ecthelion vs Gothmog.
Another question: Is Gandalf the Grey's power comparable to that of Fingon, Ecthelion, Finglofin etc.? Fingon and Ecthelion fought Gothmog, the mightiest of Balrogs. Fingolfin gave even Morgoth a good fight. Gandalf nearly died fighting one Balrog

[Gui_Incognito]

My bad, you're right.
But that's not the only instance: remember Ecthelion vs Gothmog.
Another question: Is Gandalf the Grey's power comparable to that of Fingon, Ecthelion, Finglofin etc.? Fingon and Ecthelion fought Gothmog, the mightiest of Balrogs. Fingolfin gave even Morgoth a good fight. Gandalf nearly died fighting one Balrog

You're right. Also interesting to note is that both Balrogs who died in fights with Elves died of falls and not due to any wounds they sustained.

[Haunt123]

I very much doubt that even all the 9 Nazgul together would be stronger than Gandalf...especially Gandalf the White...since he is a Maia (despite being in the mortal frame) AND he has Narya that Cirdan gave him....

The Nazgul were only wraiths and Glorfindel nor any of the high elves were afraid of them because as Legolas himself said, those who had lived in the Blessed Realm dint fear them (wraiths) and they had great power over both the Seen and the Unseen.....Gandalf would definitely count under more than just "lived" in the Blessed Realm.....The Nazgul's power is just so feared because its stems from Sauron himself....

But since no such standoff actually takes place in any of the books, there will never be conclusive evidence of the fact...although considering he fought off five Nazgul alone at night when they are strongest, when he was just Gandalf the Grey would atleast give some measure of his strength.....

The Nine could definitely not beat Gandalf, no matter what advantage they had. But Gandalf could have never been able to beat the Nine, like he beat the Balrog. I think that's what Berephon meant.

Also, we're looking at a limited number of Elven superheroes who didn't fear the Nazgul: Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel and Cirdan are all that come to mind. The thing is, they didn't fear the Nine, but by no means could they have beat the Nine.

The Witch-King of Angmar is not just any other Ringwraith, he brought down the North kingdom and ended the line of Kings of the South. Of course, he didn't do this by brute strength, but by cunning. Remember how Ar-pharazon and his army made Sauron's flee, and though Sauron had the Ring, he couldn't stand a chance? He utilized the greatest power the Ring gave him: Dominance over lesser minds. Combined with cunning.

1v1, Gandalf would have certainly beat the Witch-King. But in a realistic fight, who knows? The Nazgul led the armies of Mordor to destroy the greatest powers in Middle-Earth, you really can't underestimate his power.

[silverblade5445]

The Nine could definitely not beat Gandalf, no matter what advantage they had. But Gandalf could have never been able to beat the Nine, like he beat the Balrog. I think that's what Berephon meant.

Also, we're looking at a limited number of Elven superheroes who didn't fear the Nazgul: Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel and Cirdan are all that come to mind. The thing is, they didn't fear the Nine, but by no means could they have beat the Nine.

The Witch-King of Angmar is not just any other Ringwraith, he brought down the North kingdom and ended the line of Kings of the South. Of course, he didn't do this by brute strength, but by cunning. Remember how Ar-pharazon and his army made Sauron's flee, and though Sauron had the Ring, he couldn't stand a chance? He utilized the greatest power the Ring gave him: Dominance over lesser minds. Combined with cunning.

1v1, Gandalf would have certainly beat the Witch-King. But in a realistic fight, who knows? The Nazgul led the armies of Mordor to destroy the greatest powers in Middle-Earth, you really can't underestimate his power.

Yep definitely agreed there....some of the most powerful people in Middle Earth were also some of the most wise/cunning ones.....there'd be no saying what would happen in a true showdown...

Although since you mentioned the North kingdom, the North Kingdom lost to Angmar and the Witch King more because of its internal conflicts, carelessness and false sense of being impregnable than anything else....the Witch King very strategically used their weaknesses and brought down the great Kingdom of Arnor with some really brilliant tactics.... Plus an extremely potent sorceror he was even when he was alive.....not someone to underestimate for sure

[AllySanders]

Plus an extremely potent sorceror he was even when he was alive.....not someone to underestimate for sure

Though technically, he was already a ring wraith by then --if I remember correctly, the ring wraiths first appeared in the second age--and even took part in the battle of the last alliance. They went into hiding when Sauron was defeated.

[Mithfindel]

Whoa, whoa, whoa...

It's good to remember that beyond what was published within the Professor's lifetime, little is really set in stone. JRRT's notes have been published, but if using them as a source, it is needed to anchor a specific time frame which to use, as he tended to revise the world. (On the online age, you might compare this to some playing LotRO on 2007 version of SoA and others on current - some things change, some things stay the same. Using lore based on the Book of Lost Tales would be about on the lines of finding Sierra design documents and hacking together Middle-earth Online.)

As for Balrogs, in very early versions of Fall of Gondolin the principal heroes do indeed kill lots. In the published Silmarillion the notes were rewritten by CJRT (with the assistance of Guy Gavriel Kay) from existing fragments, and in this version we do know for certain that two Balrogs die: Gothmog (taking Echtelion with it) and an unnamed Balrog (taking Glorfindel with it). Fëanor fought many Balrogs (as may have happened when Maedhros was captured), but casualties are only recorded on the Elven side. Fingolfin is not recorded fighting Balrogs, I believe - on his ride to duel Morgoth, everyone is reported to flee him, and even Morgoth came reluctantly to face him. (It is notable that Morgoth is, indeed, a coward, as he is the only of the Ainur that can be wounded permanently, if we trust apocryphal material - for others, the bodies are disposable.) Of the other First Age duels of note, we do know that Finrod dueled Sauron and was defeated, and that later Luthien managed to defeat Sauron together with Huan (who may be of the Maiar itself). Fingon managed to defend himself against a Balrog in Nirnaeth, but died when surrounded.

Of the Wizards: They were originally sent to Middle-earth as agents (as in actual secret agents, not as in James Bond movies), each for their own skills. Gandalf's main task would be rallying people, not to fight in person. Saruman, however, turned his skills into dominating others, and may have been otherwise greater in power (however that is measured) than Gandalf. It is notable that Gandalf's defeat is not complete: He lost his staff, but Saruman still failed to find out that Gandalf wore Narya. This may be oversight on the Professor's part - though my understanding, coloured by an old Finnish TV series, is that the confrontation between Gandalf the Grey and Saruman was more alike to a contest of wills, with Gandalf giving in, rather than a D&D style wizard duel. Alternatively, Saruman may still have wished to convert Gandalf to his cause, and thought that removing his staff from him would suffice to keep him imprisoned.

Naturally, for the specific case of LotRO, we do have Word-of-God also from the developers. (Berephon: No pressure.) Also possible future movie spoilers?

On the nature of magic in Middle-earth: Some old (homebrew) ruleset for Middle-earth magic had an explanation that I could subscribe to, but it likely doesn't have that much actual lore background. IIRC in those rules, 'power' from the Ainur was innately more powerful than Elvish 'power', which yet was more powerful than the Dead. The magicians in those rules 'borrowed' from one of these sources - with black magic being specific of gathering the essense Morgoth spread to the world. This wasn't strict ruleset, a spell cast with 'weaker' magic could be as powerful as one cast with 'stronger' type of magical pool, but required more effort. However, a ringless Wraith would, in these rules, be innately 'less powerful' than a High Elf of similar standing. This all is, as mentioned, most likely homebrew and also borrowed a lot from the Finnish mythology's concept of 'väki', roughly translated to 'folk' of different things (such as water, the dead, etc.) that could be bargained with to help with different things.

[amien]

Thanks for the Wiki link! Its ALMOST as big of a timesink as Wookiepedia for me now. :P

Also on reading about Gandalf's ring:

"It is described as having the power to inspire others to resist tyranny, domination and despair"
What could the other rings do? I was told that elrond's "ring of Wind" is what caused the river to rise when the Nazgul tried to enter Imladris.


Also it's kind of ironic at what the Ring of Fire does, seeing as it's real purpose was for Sauron to take control of the bearer of it. :P

Also, what was Glorfindel (Or who ever the RK class was supposedly based off, he's near the last homely house in game, if you walk straight past the house and near the water fall.) The huge amount of hope he gives in-game tells me he's extremely old.

[silverblade5445]

Thanks for the Wiki link! Its ALMOST as big of a timesink as Wookiepedia for me now. :P

Also on reading about Gandalf's ring:

"It is described as having the power to inspire others to resist tyranny, domination and despair"
What could the other rings do? I was told that elrond's "ring of Wind" is what caused the river to rise when the Nazgul tried to enter Imladris.


Also it's kind of ironic at what the Ring of Fire does, seeing as it's real purpose was for Sauron to take control of the bearer of it. :P

Where is it said that Narya's real purpose was for Sauron to take control of the bearer of it? 0.o Actually Elrond says at the Council in Rivendell that none of the rings were made to be gear of war....their powers were only that of healing and preserving and resisting the evil powers.....

Narya was the Ring of Fire, given by the elven smith Celebrimbor to Gil Galad when he was going to fight Sauron with the Last Alliance, so that he could resist Sauron's power and dominance when he fought him......Gil Galad gave it to Cirdan though and kept Vilya with himself until he died in the final battle with Sauron on Mount Doom....then it was given to Elrond, who was Gil Galad's herald and one of the only 2 people present with him of his army (second was Cirdan).....Cirdan later gave Narya to Gandalf when he arrived to Middle Earth....hence he could resist the Balrog's power as well as the temptation of the One Ring.....its a kind of boost to willpower.....

Vilya, the ring of Air, is possessed by Elrond....its supposed to be the mightiest of the 3 elven rings and although its power is not clearly defined anywhere, its supposedly a ring with powers of Restoration and Healing and Preservation.....hence Elrond has such great healing powers and Rivendell is preserved as is mentioned in the books - "the memory of all the Ages gone seems to be preserved there"....although its not clear if the ring was associated with the flood of Bruinen......its only said that the river of that valley is under the control of Elrond (as is everything in that valley) and it will listen to his commands.....if he uses the ring to do that or simply has that kind of power himself, cant say.....though it does make sense that the ring might aid him in doing that....

Nenya, the ring of Water, is possessed by Galadriel and its the Ring of Adamant as Galadriel tells Frodo....its powers are obviously those of maintenance, some sort of adamant of will power and protection....hence Lothlorien is so magical because the ring has a power to even affect time and people as the fellowship feel when they live there....its as if living in the past....in an unstained, perfect harmonious time.....

Also, what was Glorfindel (Or who ever the RK class was supposedly based off, he's near the last homely house in game, if you walk straight past the house and near the water fall.) The huge amount of hope he gives in-game tells me he's extremely old.

The RK class is not based on Glorfindel...its based on Celebrimbor.....the celebrated elven smith of Eregion.....one who crafted the 3 rings Vilya, Nenya and Narya....

Glorfindel on the other hand is one of the High Elves....he was old indeed....there is a mention of another elf named Glorfindel in the earlier Ages, in Silmarillion, at Gondolin and its fall, although its unclear whether this is the same Glorfindel that we see in the Lord of the Rings.....both of them are said to be one of the mighty Firstborn though......who have lived in Aman and possess great strength and power......And you'll see that all those characters that are known to have lived in the Blessed Realm at some point in the lore, give off exceptional hope in the game (+10 hope).....be it Glorfindel, Galadriel, Celeborn, etc.....

[Haunt123]

Also it's kind of ironic at what the Ring of Fire does, seeing as it's real purpose was for Sauron to take control of the bearer of it. :P

Also, what was Glorfindel (Or who ever the RK class was supposedly based off, he's near the last homely house in game, if you walk straight past the house and near the water fall.) The huge amount of hope he gives in-game tells me he's extremely old.

The Elf-rings don't have power like the One Ring (Troll-strength, etc.) Narya gave hope to anyone who was near, or who thought of, Gandalf. It gave people the will to resist Tyranny, and made Gandalf an even more efficient leader It's like the hope buff heroes give you in game, except that it's +20 hope or whatever.

However, you are right. The Elf-lords themselves said that it would have been better if the Elf Rings were never crafted, for Sauron could now know a lot about the Elf settlements using the One Ring.

The RK class is inspired by Celebrimbor, not Glorfindel. Glorfindel was an Elf lord in Gondolin, a very important hidden fortress of the First Age. It housed Turgon, Lord of the Noldor Elves (High Elves). It fell when a certain Dark Elf betrayed its locaion to Morgoth.
Glorfindel protected a group of important people escaping the ruin, however he had to fight a Balrog. He and the Balrog were both killed. Later, in the Third Age I think, the Valar sent him back to aid in fighting Sauron.

So you can guess that his might is comparable to Elrond's. In fact, he is much older than Elrond. Seeing him should give you a + infinity hope buff, because each servant of Sauron, including Sauron himself, fears Glorfindel.

EDIT: Silverblade beat me to it. Damn all of you lore-junkies :P

[amien]

Why is Elrond a High-elf? Or if he isn't, what in particular makes him so famous among the elves. I know that he's half man half elf, but he isn't anywhere as old as Galadriel or Glorfindel

Also, who exactly is Celeborn (Galadriel's husband?)? In the movies and the game itself, everyone kind of ignores the poor guy. Is he a light elf, or has he never seen Aman?

Also, what is to prevent men from sailing to Aman?

[Haunt123]

Why is Elrond a High-elf? Or if he isn't, what in particular makes him so famous among the elves. I know that he's half man half elf, but he isn't anywhere as old as Galadriel or Glorfindel

Also, who exactly is Celeborn (Galadriel's husband?)? In the movies and the game itself, everyone kind of ignores the poor guy. Is he a light elf, or has he never seen Aman?

Also, what is to prevent men from sailing to Aman?

Elrond has descended from many High Elven kings; he is a Noldor Elf. His is of "noble blood", to say. That pretty much qualifies him as a High Elf, though he had never lived in Eldamar.
He is famous because

1. He is the son of the person who triggered the fall of Morgoth
2. He was the Herald of Gil-Galad, king of the High Elves
3. His was the only refuge for High Elves in Middle-Earth (Rivendell)
4. He has Vilya, the greatest of the Three Rings (I think)
5. He is more learned in lore than anyone, even Gandalf.
6. He is a very important member of the White Council.
7. He is the eldest of the Edain (though he is not a man himself), and was thus respected by all the Dunedain Kings.
8. He was the brother of the first King of Numenor.
9. He is descended from nearly ALL the houses of Elves and Men, and he is part Maiar too.
10. He, Cirdan, Gil Galad, Isildur and Elendil were the only ones who confronted Sauron

And many more reasons...

Celeborn was an Elf lord in Doriath, a great kingdom of Sindar Elves in the First Age. Galadriel sort of overshadows his role, as she plays a much mre important role than him. I think he is a Sindar Elf, so he's not a light Elf.

The Race of Man does not belong in the "Undying" Lands, Aman. They could, however, set sail to the place, like Earendil did. But after the First Age, the Men of Numenor (The remnants of the Men of Beleriand) were forbidden to set sail to the West. The last king of the Numenor tried to break this ban, and he did set foot on Aman, but then Numenor was destroyed and the Undying Lands were removed from the Circles of the World.

Thus, now, only Elves could reach Aman, and races *other than Men* can only reach Aman if guided by Elves. Men, however, are now free to go wherever they want, as can be seen from the discoveries of many new lands, such as the Americas. (LOTR is a fictional history of the Earth).

(Right now, the Sixth Age is going on. The Dwarves have shut themselves from the world and are in their subterranean homes. The Elves who remained in Middle-Earth have "faded" and become invisible to Men. IDK about Hobbits.)

[Nymphonic]

I just wanted to thank all of you lore junkies for all this information. /deepbow

[Haunt123]

If you're really into the lore, these are my thoughts on the Americas:

Once the Undying Lands were removed from the World, the land itself (the bare land (not exactly bare, but you get the point)) was left on Arda. These lands were the Americas, as they are directly west of Europe, where Middle Earth was. In fact, Numenor was in the Atlantic Ocean (a counterpart to Atlantis).

Some Equivalents...

Scandinavia = Forochel. The shape is somewhat similar, if you observe.
(You can make out the rest of Europe if this is true)
Africa = Harad. There was an excellent map of Arda which showed this.
The Americas = Undying Lands
Atlantis = Numenor

I COULD BE VERY WRONG WITH THESE, though.

[silverblade5445]

Why is Elrond a High-elf? Or if he isn't, what in particular makes him so famous among the elves. I know that he's half man half elf, but he isn't anywhere as old as Galadriel or Glorfindel

Elrond is the son of Earendil, the seafarer who is the only mortal to have ever crossed the Enchanted Isles to the Undying Lands, using the flying ship he built with the help of Cirdan, to ask aid of the Valar in defeating Morgoth....in which he succeeded and hence the Valar came and defeated Morgoth....he is called Halfelven because he was half elven from his mother's side....his mother Elwing was the daughter of Dior who is the son of Beren (who was a mortal man) and Luthien (who was an elven princess).....when Earendil gained the favor of the Valar, his sons Elrond and Elros were offered the choice of being an immortal elf or a mortal man....Elrond chose to be elven, while Elros chose mortality....He was the son of the legendary Earendil, he was the herald of Gil Galad and later the wielder of Vilya and Lord of Rivendell and also main ally of Arnor, the north kingdom of the Dunadan during its glory.....hence his fame.....

And even though he doesnt seem to be as old as Galadriel, he is almost so....Elrond was born in the late First Age and is roughly 6000+ years old during the events of the Lord of the Rings....Galadriel is older because she was born during the earlier part of the First Age....

Also, who exactly is Celeborn (Galadriel's husband?)? In the movies and the game itself, everyone kind of ignores the poor guy. Is he a light elf, or has he never seen Aman?

The origin of Celeborn is not clear but being the Lord of Lothlorien alongwith Galadriel obviously meant he was of High House of elves.....its mentioned that he was kinsman of Thingol, Lord of Beleriand and King of Doriath....Also almost all the older High Elves have seen Aman....Also since it was Celeborn who first called the White Council, its definite that he's been to Aman....

Also, what is to prevent men from sailing to Aman?

It wasnt always so....when Numenor was made for the Men to dwell at, the Men were only forbidden to sail West out of sight of the island of Numenor.....Men were given the gift of being mortal, to die of old age when they grew weary of life.....and the Valar feared that Men would not see it as a gift and would want to attain immortality by coming to Aman.....which was quite right because in the Second Age, Sauron used his trickery and cunning to befriend himself with the Men of Westernesse and soon became the advisor of the then King, Ar-Pharazon.....Numenor was very powerful then and at the height of its glory.....Sauron slowly lured the King to the temptation of immortality and hence under Sauron's influence, Ar-Phazaron ignored the Valar's order of not sailing West and journeyed to Aman with an army to capture Aman.....when he came there, since the Valar were not allowed to directly attack Men, they called upon Eru (The main God entity of the lore) for help .... He removed the Blessed Realm forever from the reach of Men and destroyed the island of Numenor killing everyone who was there.....only Elendil who had forseen this danger when Ar-Phazaron set sail to attack Aman, had travelled to Middle Earth before Numenor was destroyed, with all the people that followed him, and hence they survived.....


Edit - Haunt beat me to it this time hehe

[oldbadgerbrock]

How come Gandalf loses to the Balrog in Moria? The elven king in the Silmarillion cuts down many of them in his rampage into Angband, and Gandalf is a Miar(Spelling)!

In my estimation, Gandalf's fight with Durin's Bane that culminated at the peak of Zirakzigil ended in a tie: they were both slain. Gandalf achieved the ultimate victory, however, when Ilúvatar gave him a new body so that he may complete the task for which he had been sent.

The Balrogs that fought the Noldor were either weaker than Durin's Bane or the Noldor more powerful warriors than Gandalf. Take your pick. Seriously, 'The Fall of Gondolin' and other stories that appear in The Silmarillion were written long before The Lord of the Rings was ever conceived. There are some obvious inconsistencies that Professor Tolkien was unable to rectify before his passing. His son Christopher compiled The Silmarillion from the copious amount of material that his father had written over a span of many years.

Also, it seems like in LOTR, the older you are, the more powerful you are. Hence the Wizards/Sauron/ Galadriel being beacons of hope/dread. Is this an adequate way of looking at things?

No, age is not necessarily a factor in the amount of power that one possesses. For example, Círdan the Shipwright is definitely older than Elrond and thought to be older than Galadriel, yet he is not nearly so powerful as they. (Círdan once possessed Narya, the Ring of Fire, but gave it to Gandalf upon the latter's arrival in Middle-earth. Even with the ring he likely was not more powerful than Elrond or Galadriel.)

BUT I have heard that Gandalf was just as powerful as Sauron, he just didn't really have the confidence to do it.... What do you guys think?

I suggest you read Unfinished Tales, particularly the chapter entitled 'The Istari'.

Why is Saruman more powerful than Gandalf in FotR? I don't know who Saruman's Valar is, but I know Gandalf's is Manwe (The leader of the Valar). Is it because Gandalf has physically lived on Middle-Earth for less time than the other wizards?

Same answer as previous.

How come Sauruman's orcs are digging the Uruk-hai like Lurtz out of the Mud? I thought that Uruk-hai were corrupted men, and orcs corrupted elves.

I can't answer the mud question because that was a creation of the filmmakers.

Uruk-hai simply means 'Orc-people' in the Black Speech, the language devised by Sauron. The term Uruk-hai, often shortened to Uruk, is used in The Lord of the Rings to refer to the large sun-resistant Orcs who served as soldiers for both Sauron and Saruman. It is not precisely known how Orcs came into being or how they were bred, although it is said that they had offspring in the manner of Men. The Elves believed that Morgoth brought Orcs into being by torturing and twisting Elves that he had captured. This was just a theory, however, that they were never able to verify. It is evident that Saruman bred Orcs with Men to produce creatures like the so-called Squint-eyed Southerner observed in Bree. Merry and Pippin report seeing others like him in Isengard.

[oldbadgerbrock]

Why is Elrond a High-elf? Or if he isn't, what in particular makes him so famous among the elves. I know that he's half man half elf, but he isn't anywhere as old as Galadriel or Glorfindel

Elrond isn't an Elf at all, he's Halfelven, although he chose the Fate of the Elves. He is approximately 6,500 years old at the time of the War of the Ring. His brother, Elros, chose the Fate of Men and was the first king of Númenor. Elrond's ancestry is Noldor and Sindar from the Elves, and the Houses of Bëor and Hador from Men. His great-great-grandmother is Melian the Maia. His father is Eärendil, who sails the heavens in Vingilot with a Silmaril upon his brow. He is wed to Celebrían, the daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn. After the war his daughter, Arwen, weds Aragorn and becomes the queen of the reunited kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor.

Elrond is obviously very wise, has great knowledge of the events of the first Three Ages, and possesses the most powerful of the Three Elven Rings, Vilya, the Ring of Air. Elrond established Imladris (Rivendell), and served as Gil-galad's herald during the Last Alliance of Elves and Men. He is a member of the White Council that makes decisions on important affairs of the Free Peoples.

Also, who exactly is Celeborn (Galadriel's husband?)?...Is he a light elf, or has he never seen Aman?

That depends upon which version of his story you wish to believe, as there is one in The Silmarillion and several others in Unfinished Tales. According to the version in The Silmarillion he is a Sinda (Grey-elf), and a kinsman of Thingol. In that version he has not seen Aman and, obviously, is not a Light Elf. (Among the Elves of Middle-earth that distinction only applied only to the Noldor who defied the Valar and to Thingol.)

Also, what is to prevent men from sailing to Aman?

I suggest reading The Silmarillion to find the answer to that question, particularly the chapters entitled 'The Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath' and particularly 'Akallabêth'.

[Radhruin_EU]

I can't answer the mud question because that was a creation of the filmmakers.

In context, yes but it looks to me like they'd borrowed that from Tolkien's earliest notion of where the Orcs had come from, of Melko (as he was then) having made them from 'stone and slime'. So, not entirely un-Tolkienesque, albeit a long way removed from LOTR and from very old material, and it did make for an effective scene. The look on Saruman's face when he was admiring his newborn creation was well worth it, I thought

[AllySanders]

Also, what was Glorfindel (Or who ever the RK class was supposedly based off, he's near the last homely house in game, if you walk straight past the house and near the water fall.) The huge amount of hope he gives in-game tells me he's extremely old.

Another extremely useful site for information on all things Lord of the Rings is the encyclopedia of Arada http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp

There is an excellent note there on Glorfindel, concerning whether the Glorfindel of Gondollin and the Glorfindel of Rivendell were indeed the same elf, and its also a good commentary as a whole on how to handle the information found in the Lost Tales and Histories of Middle Earth:

The Problem of the Two Glorfindels

With the possible exception of Tom Bombadil's identity (and - of course - the wingedness or otherwise of Balrogs), there is no more hotly debated topic than the ultimate fate of Glorfindel. Were Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell the same person? The only real resource we have to answer this question is in The Peoples of Middle-earth (The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12): XIII Last Writings, Glorfindel. Christopher Tolkien dates the notes he gives here at 1972, the year before his father's death. These notes clear up one question immediately: at the time of the writing of The Lord of the Rings, Glorfindel of Rivendell was not conceived as the same character as Glorfindel of Gondolin. Tolkien says, 'Its use [i.e. the name 'Glorfindel'] in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends ... which escaped reconsideration in the final published form...'. Tolkien was far from happy with this state of affairs, however, and it seems that he intended to reconcile the problem by uniting the two strands of the story. In summary, the notes tell us that Glorfindel's spirit returned to the Halls of Waiting, but was after a time re-embodied by the Valar. He then returned to Middle-earth (either in the mid-Second Age, or as a companion of the Istari in the Third). For the full story of his return, refer to The Peoples of Middle-earth.

The question of Glorfindel's identity, then, brings us to a much wider, and highly relevant, question. Can we accept a writer's personal notes, whether written in preparation for a published work, or simply for personal satisfaction, as part of that writer's 'canon'? The importance of this question is highlighted by the essay entitled The Problem of Ros in the same volume of The History of Middle-earth. This is an extensive disposition on the origins and meaning of the syllable ros in names such as Elros. The details need not concern us here: what is relevant is the fact that, after its composition, Tolkien noticed a detail in the published Lord of the Rings that essentially negated the discussion. He dismissed the body of The Problem of Ros with four words; 'most of this fails'. But what if he had not noticed this inconvenient fact (that Cair Andros had already been interpreted, and disagreed with his conclusions)? What if he had noticed, but had failed to record the fact? Would The Problem of Ros now be considered part of the 'Tolkienian' canon in the way that many regard the notes on Glorfindel? Questions like this show that we cannot simply take such notes on immediate face value.

Despite this, the Glorfindel notes lead many to see his re-embodiment and return to Middle-earth as 'fact' (and not a few have e-mailed us to remind us of this!) The purpose of this rather lengthy aside, though, is to show that we cannot view these 'events' in such concrete terms. This is the reason that the 'two Glorfindels' have separate entries on this site. This is not because we do not believe that Tolkien saw them as different embodiments of the same character (as we have seen, there are strong indications that he did), but simply because there is no definitive, published, proof of this.

Glorfindel of Gondolin was, according to the Silmarillion and the recent Children of Hurin (both of which, remember, were compiled by Christopher Tolkien based on his father's notes, and thus falls into the realm of debate) a captain of the High King of the Noldor in Middle Earth, Turgon. It is said that he was of the house of the golden flower. Now a man named Tuor had been sent to Gondolin to warn the elves to leave before this all happened (in fact, Ulmo the Vala was the one who had shown Turgon the hidden valley where Gondolin was built, and he had told him then that when it was time to leave, he would send someone to them to warn them), but it is said that Turgon had fallen in love with Gondolin and he and his people refused to leave. He did allow Tuor to stay and treated him well, him being an emmissary of a Vala and all. Tuor fell in love with Turgon's daughter, Idril, and they married (which ticked off her cousin, a dark elf named Maeglin who was Turgon's sister's son by a apparently Sinda elf, because He was in love with Idril himself). They had a son named Earendil, who later married the granddaughter of Beren and Luthien and fathered Elrond and Elros. Now Idril & Tuor disagreed with Turgon's decision to remain in Gondolin, but respected their king's decision. So they began to prepare a secret way out of the city, knowing that an attack would come. In a few short years, it did. Maeglin, Turgon's nephew, snuck out of the city often, despite Turgon's decree that no one was to leave, and was captured by Morgoth. He betrayed the city's location and Morgoth sent his armies to destroy it. In the battle, Turgon's high captain, an elf named Ecthelion, battled the Balrog captain Gothmog and defeated him, but died in the process. Thanks to Idril and Tuor, however, some were able to escape the destruction and used their secret passage to flee into the mountains. However, at least one of Morgoth's creatures chased after them. As they were winding up mountains paths, a Balrog caught up with them. Glorfindel fought the balrog. in the battle, they both fell from the high mountain path into a deep gorge and died.

Of course, the source for all this comes from the Silmarillion and the others volumes compiled by Christopher Tolkien from his father's notes. So there is debate on whether any of this can truly be taken as canon or not. It really depends on what you accept as canon--pretty much everyone agrees that the published LOTR trilogy is canon; however, some include the Hobbit in that, others don't; some considered all the above and the Silmarillion as canon; others disagree; some considered everything in the histories to be canon but exclude the lost tales, others take it all as canon. However, there are a lot of inconsistencies throughout all these choices--things in the appendices of the Return of the King don't agree with things as published in the Silmarillion which don't agree with things published in the Histories. And even if we had the good professor here today we might not get a clear cut answer, either (look at some of the discussions in the Letters of Tolkien!). This was literally his life's work, and the world and its characters evolved over several decades. But because it was his life's work, Tolkien was constantly tweaking things and changing them, tinkering with them. He saw the inconsistencies in some of his lore and did try to fix them--for example, the origin of orcs. Early on, he declared them to have been twisted elves, but its said that later in his life, he could see the problems encountered by this origin and was actually considering changing that and making there origin to be men. That, of course, throws a monkey wrench into his lore, however, as orcs were seen in Middle Earth before the beginning of hte first age, while men were said to have not awakened until the first sun rose. Its even said that at the end of his life, he was considering a massive re-write of his creation story. As things are now, Arda, when first created, was flat, and was not made a globe until near the end of the second age when Numenor was destroyed and Valinor removed from the circles of the earth. Tolkien, since he considered his whole opus to be a mythological pre-history of our world, was, at the end of his life, considering revamping his storyline to fit with what we know of our world and universe--thus, he was playing around with the idea of making Arda a globe all along, claiming that it was only the perception of those on the earth who considered it to be flat (much like our ancestors did in the Middle Ages). He also was going to change the origins of the sun and moon, as they are obliviously not great jewels being guided through the sky by angel-like beings

Of course, being that he considered the whole entire thing to be a myth and legend, it really isn't a problem that the inconsistencies with reality existed; the thing was all fiction anyway. I mean, look at all the inconsistencies found in the Greek myths and fables!

So all that is said to just make the point that there is nothing, except perhaps the trilogy itself, that is solid when it comes to the lore of Middle Earth. Everything else is up for debate!

My personal preference is to blend them as best I can, taking the trilogy to be the first source, and then using what I know from the Silmarilion unless there are things that Christopher himself expressly indicates are mistakes on his part (such as Orodreth being Finrod's nephew, not his brother). Now I myself tend to lean more toward the Silmarillion, but that's only because I have read the Silmarillion and am familiar with it; I have not read lost tales or the histories and only know whats in them through online reference sources. I also often refer to the appendices in ROTK but acknowledge that Tolkien himself had intended to change those after they were published, and thus it may be better to take the histories over them in areas where they disagree.

But this is my personal framework; by no means does anyone else have to agree with me!

[Haunt123]

...

Mother of God... that was a pretty long post on Glorfindel!
+1 rep for info

[AllySanders]

And just because I have a big mouth and can't resist adding the rest of my eight and half cents

Why is Elrond a High-elf? Or if he isn't, what in particular makes him so famous among the elves. I know that he's half man half elf, but he isn't anywhere as old as Galadriel or Glorfindel

It depends on your definition of the term High Elf. The term could refer to the Noldor who returned from Aman or to those elves who had gone to Valinor and saw the light of the two trees. So, being that Elrond was descended from Turgon, one of the High kings of the Noldor in Middle Earth who had been born in Aman during the time of the trees, he could claim that title. Also, his great-grandfather Elwe, also known as Thingol, the king of the Sinda Elves (and I think considered king by the Silvan elves as well) had traveled to Aman as an emissary from the elves way back when they first awoke and had also seen the light of the trees, though he himself did not settle in Aman and chose to remain behind, and thus might, if you go with the second idea of high elves, also be considered a high elf. So it could be that the title passed to him simply due to his ancestry.

Also, looking at Elrond's ancestry and being that he was a descendent of the high king through Turgon's daughter, Elrond technicially had a very good claim to the title High King if he had wanted it. Gil-galad was a cousin of his. Also, since he was the oldest living descendent of Luthian, the only daughter of Thingol, he had a somewhat claim to the title king of the Sindar as well. Of course, all this is only theoretical, Elrond did not make those claims. But in any case, there are a lot of factors in Elrond's case that come into play when including him among the high elves of Middle Earth.

if you want to define High Elf to mean the wisest and most powerful of the elves in Middle Earth, again, Elrond meets that criteria because of his great wisdom, his wielding one of the three rings of power, and because of his descent from some of the most powerful elves in Middle Earth--AND being the only "elf" in middle earth left who had that strain of maia from Melian--because while Elrond is called the half-elven, which is itself, technically inconsistent, when you break the numbers down, since he chose to be numbered among the first born, it's not completely wrong to just refer to him as an elf.

Also, who exactly is Celeborn (Galadriel's husband?)? In the movies and the game itself, everyone kind of ignores the poor guy. Is he a light elf, or has he never seen Aman?

As mentioned before, there are a lot of problems with the story of Galadriel and by extension, Celeborn. Galadriel's importance to the story really only evolved over time in Tolkien's mind, and as she took a more prominent place in the story, he continually changed her history. Thus, there are a lot of different variations out there. The version published in the Silmarillion states that she came across the grinding ice to Beleriand with her brothers and uncle Fingolfin and met Celeborn in Doriath; thus Celeborn was a Sinda elf and a dark elf as he had never saw the light of the two trees (since the definition of dark elf was only that the elf had never been to Aman). I believe it said he was a kinsman of Thingol there.

But other variations are found in Tolkien's notes. One states that she met Celeborn in Aman and that they married there and crossed the ocean on their own, following after the Noldor. In this case, Celeborn would be a high elf from Aman.

A good essay on this can be found at the Encyclopedia of Arda website, the link to which I mentioned in my previous post:

Theme and Variations

Where The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings make mention of matters in the early history of Arda, they're usually referring to events that were already part of the Silmarillion cycle, and so already documented and understood by their author. For instance, when it's revealed that Glamdring belonged to the King of Gondolin, or Aragorn tells the story of Beren and Lúthien, these are references to stories and poems that really did already exist.

Galadriel, though, doesn't belong to this pattern. The story of The Lord of the Rings establishes that she's a High Elf of some importance, and so should appear somewhere in the stories of the First Age, but in fact her character only emerged during the writing of The Lord of the Rings, and no mention of her existed in the earlier traditions.

Tolkien looked at various different ways to adapt Galadriel into the Silmarillion stories, and the account given in this entry blends the most common themes to produce an account that matches all the published material. It's important to bear in mind, though, that Tolkien never truly finalised Galadriel's role in the earlier history of Middle-earth, or the story of her relationship to Celeborn. He attempted a number of experimental variations on the theme of her life, and the following is a selection of these variations, to give a flavour of some of alternative lives Galadriel might have lived in a parallel literary universe.

*Celeborn was not a Sinda of Doriath, but a Silvan Elf who was Lord of Lórien in his own right, so that Galadriel didn't meet him until she travelled there.
*Celeborn was not a Sinda of Doriath, but one of the Teleri, and Galadriel met him in Aman rather than Middle-earth. The two crossed the Great Sea together independently of Fëanor's journey into Middle-earth, but were trapped there when Fëanor brought about the Exile of the Noldor.
*Amroth was not merely the former King of Lórien, but actually the son of Galadriel and Celeborn. His parents took over the rule of their son's kingdom after he was lost.
*Galadriel didn't merely travel to Eregion, but actually founded that land, and ruled it herself for many years. According to this version, Celebrimbor consorted with Annatar in secret, and made the Rings of Power without Galadriel's knowledge or permission.

It can't be said for certain that Tolkien intended to reject all of these options. In fact, had he survived to complete the Silmarillion himself, some of these elements may plausibly have found their way into Galadriel's 'true' history.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...

It's good to remember that beyond what was published within the Professor's lifetime, little is really set in stone. JRRT's notes have been published, but if using them as a source, it is needed to anchor a specific time frame which to use, as he tended to revise the world. (On the online age, you might compare this to some playing LotRO on 2007 version of SoA and others on current - some things change, some things stay the same. Using lore based on the Book of Lost Tales would be about on the lines of finding Sierra design documents and hacking together Middle-earth Online.)

I completely agree with you on that one! But I won't reiterate my entire boring spiel on what can be considered canon from my previous post. I would say on things like this, which can be hotly debated, you should just see what options are out there and then decide which version fits with your own views of that world and go with it. In truth, there isn't really a "right" or "wrong" answer when picking from the various options.

So if I want to stick with the Silmarillion's version that says that Amrad was NOT accidentally burnt to death when Feanor burnt the ships at Losgar, I can, dang it!

[AllySanders]

Mother of God... that was a pretty long post on Glorfindel!
+1 rep for info

What can I say? I'm longwinded! At least, when it comes to the keyboard, anyway

[amien]

How large was Beleriand exactly? Does everything that takes place in the Silmarillion take place on Beleriand?

As for the House of Numenor, they came to acquire long life from being around elves and learning from them so much, So when Elindil fled Numenor taking some people with him, did the blood kind of, lose its potency as they bred with normal men and no longer had contact with the Elves?

I saw someone listed Aragorn and Arwen being lords over the reunited kingdoms of Anor and Gondor, what/where was Arnor? The mention I've seen of it was in the Northdowns in game.

Why do people argue so hottly over whether or not Balrogs have wings?


Big question here:

What exactly was Tom Bombadil?
reading on the Wiki about how lesser creatures would turn invisible with the One Ring, but greater people could become invincible. I know that Tom didn't turn invisible, so would it have made him more powerful than he already was?

[AllySanders]

How large was Beleriand exactly? Does everything that takes place in the Silmarillion take place on Beleriand?

As for the House of Numenor, they came to acquire long life from being around elves and learning from them so much, So when Elindil fled Numenor taking some people with him, did the blood kind of, lose its potency as they bred with normal men and no longer had contact with the Elves?

I saw someone listed Aragorn and Arwen being lords over the reunited kingdoms of Anor and Gondor, what/where was Arnor? The mention I've seen of it was in the Northdowns in game.

Why do people argue so hottly over whether or not have wings?


Big question here:

What exactly was Tom Bombadil?
reading on the Wiki about how lesser creatures would turn invisible with the One Ring, but greater people could become invincible. I know that Tom didn't turn invisible, so would it have made him more powerful than he already was?

I promise--I'll try to keep this one short.

I'm not sure the exact size of Beleriand, but would probably compare it in size to Eriador at the least. Yes, all the events in the Silmarillion that happened in the 1st Age happened in Beleriand, except, of course, for those events that happened in the Blessed Realm. Beleriand sunk after the War of Wrath and was no more, so then everything moved to Eriador and the lands south and east of the Misty Mountains.

Numenor wasn't a house or a single family; it was an island created by the Valar to reward those men who were faithful in fighting against Morgoth. Secondly, the people of Numenor did not receive their long lives from association with the elves; it was a special blessing granted to them by Eru and the Valar. Elves did not live on Numenor; they only visited it occassionally until the people there turned against them.

Yes, the long life was lost in part to their intermingling with lesser men in Middle Earth during the Third Age, but not just that either; it was also because they in effect were in exile in Middle Earth and the blessings of Numenor were slowly taken from them over the years. As Faramir said, the men of Gondor by the time of the war of the ring were no longer high men but truly now middle men with memory of higher things.

Arnor was the northern kingdom ruled by Elendil and later Isildur's heirs. It covered the entire region between the Blue Mountains and the Misty Mountains pretty much. The original capital was Annuminas (visit Evendim to see the ruins), later moved to Fornost (go to the North Downs to do its ruins). It was never as prosperous as Gondor nor as populated. It broke into 3 kingdoms later in its history and was slowly destroyed one by one by the Witchking and his kingdom of Angmar.

Argue hotly over whether what had wings? Balrogs? Taht's because Tolkien talks about the shadow behind it being like great wings but doesn't explicitly call them wings.

Tolkien never says who or what Tom Bombidil was and actually purposely, according to the Letters of JRR Tolkien, kept that to himself, though I'm not sure he himself ever explored that. Tom was definitely no human or elf, and its debated whether he was a maia or not. He tells Frodo he was in Middle Earth before the first acorn was planted, so he's obviously very old. Some wonder if he's not Eru in bodily form, but most discard that idea as not really making any sense.

Of course, a bigger question is, who is the river lady who was Goldberry's mother, and where did she come from?