Fire DPS Parses

[cwrons]

I have no idea what the OP was looking at, but I am doing more damage as a Fire Traited RK than ever. I am not level 75 and I don't even have Mystifying Flame traited and I am doing tons of damage! I'm running around and watching stuff burn up and die before I even get to 90% health against elites. I especially love that in my fire rotation by the time I get to my 7th spell I get a nice little heal with WoF or a big heal with WoH. Love the new updates to help us survive and the damage INCREASE! OP is just angry because things are just a little bit different and I guess some people can't deal with change even for the better

[Bradegor]

DPS is more or less the same than before Update 6, which is good. Once attunement is up, we have comparable burst, maybe just a little less.

Threat, on the other part, needs some tweaks.

[PerfectApproach]

OP is just angry because things are just a little bit different and I guess some people can't deal with change even for the better

1) Nice that you can just determine my emotional state and the reasoning behind it arbitrarily. Are you Vulcan?

2) I have "dealt with change" since the class was released. I'm not scared of admitting some of the changes have been for the better. But I'm also not scared to tell when they're for the worse.

3) I have seen a lot of "This feels better" posts, but I've not actually seen any parses from before/after the update. Except mine. Which I confess, could be flawed/skewed against the burst DPS that characterized fire before U6. However, I'm still waiting to see the parses for fights longer than a minute pre and post U6.

I know for a fact that I parsed right at 1000 dps against Erebun in the Rescue at Nurz Ghashu skirmish before U6. He has pretty good fire mitigation. I'm gonna parse that fight tonight. I think that will be a better test than the test dummies.

[Therubor]

1) Nice that you can just determine my emotional state and the reasoning behind it arbitrarily. Are you Vulcan?

Well, I am, and rather proud of it.

2) I have "dealt with change" since the class was released. I'm not scared of admitting some of the changes have been for the better. But I'm also not scared to tell when they're for the worse.

3) I have seen a lot of "This feels better" posts, but I've not actually seen any parses from before/after the update. Except mine. Which I confess, could be flawed/skewed against the burst DPS that characterized fire before U6. However, I'm still waiting to see the parses for fights longer than a minute pre and post U6.

I know for a fact that I parsed right at 1000 dps against Erebun in the Rescue at Nurz Ghashu skirmish before U6. He has pretty good fire mitigation. I'm gonna parse that fight tonight. I think that will be a better test than the test dummies.

Fire does in fact seem a lot smoother than before. Are you using Frost skills? It'd appear that they can add a bit to your DPS, what with the new trait bonuses and such.

[Bradegor]

Fire does in fact seem a lot smoother than before. Are you using Frost skills? It'd appear that they can add a bit to your DPS, what with the new trait bonuses and such.

Frost add utilty, but tbh if you´re Fire traited and want to do DPS, stick on Fire skills. They deal more DPS.

[cwrons]

Frost add utilty, but tbh if you´re Fire traited and want to do DPS, stick on Fire skills. They deal more DPS.

Frost actually helps DPS with the new 5 trait bonuses, and also some of the utility it adds in the rotation adds up to the DPS. Especially in real combat and writ of cold increasing attack duration which helps you cast your fire skills faster by not getting knocked back as much. I don't really base my damage on what I can hit a dummy for, I base it on damage in the field.

[Chris91]

Frost actually helps DPS with the new 5 trait bonuses, and also some of the utility it adds in the rotation adds up to the DPS. Especially in real combat and writ of cold increasing attack duration which helps you cast your fire skills faster by not getting knocked back as much. I don't really base my damage on what I can hit a dummy for, I base it on damage in the field.

We are not talking about landscape mobs, even with 1/4 of our DPS we would still be fine on landscape

While Raiding your inductions won´t get knocked back, that´s what this topic is about

[PerfectApproach]

So the final tally is in. Let me be very clear.

==========
Although I still have not yet achieved the same DPS numbers I was able to achieve against Erebun,
I WAS RIGHT ABOUT A NERF.
Edit 04 Jul 2012: Nevermind. Just took a look at the Champ Forums. They're parsing nearly 2k, unbuffed, and COMPLAINING about it. I'm still not breaking 1200.
==========

I DO believe that because of the dramatic changes to the way RK's do fire damage, it's HARDER to reach the same DPS numbers as before. I was able to reach 900 DPS against Erebun. The thing is, I think it's a little TOO hard to reach the same DPS numbers as before.

Before the update, it was easy to reach peak DPS and stay there for a long time. Now, it takes FOREVER to reach peak DPS. I'll have a new post on my rotation later.

Edit 04 Jul 2012: Just read some of the Champ forums. 900 DPS is paltry, and it hasn't improved much for RK's since. I hereby reinstate my claim of NERRRRRRRRFFFFF!!!

[Raven-EU]

Frost add utilty, but tbh if you´re Fire traited and want to do DPS, stick on Fire skills. They deal more DPS.

Yes, but refreshing WoF before it's due is simply waisting power without contributing to DPS. Using the free writs to cast WoC will give a noticeable DPS boost while at the same time providing nice utility. And yes, this will continue to be true even if the 5-set bonus from the ToO fire set is working (because the extra ~500 damage is less than the ~1000 damage that WoC does).

[Raven-EU]

I DO believe that because of the dramatic changes to the way RK's do fire damage, it's HARDER to reach the same DPS numbers as before. I was able to reach 900 DPS against Erebun. The thing is, I think it's a little TOO hard to reach the same DPS numbers as before.

Before the update, it was easy to reach peak DPS and stay there for a long time. Now, it takes FOREVER to reach peak DPS. I'll have a new post on my rotation later.

Yes, the iEoF burst made sure your DPS reach the long-term DPS plateu value faster. One thing I'd really like to add to Combat Analysis is a "rolling average" over the last, say, 20-30 seconds.

Another thing you can muse a bit over is this: How does the 3-set bonus from the ToO fire set affect how your DPS develops as you start making your rotations more complex?

[PerfectApproach]

Yes, the iEoF burst made sure your DPS reach the long-term DPS plateu value faster. One thing I'd really like to add to Combat Analysis is a "rolling average" over the last, say, 20-30 seconds.

Another thing you can muse a bit over is this: How does the 3-set bonus from the ToO fire set affect how your DPS develops as you start making your rotations more complex?

It's not just the IEoF change. Fall to our Wrath no longer does 1000 damage up front. Calming Verse no longer adds that extra 10% of damage up front. IIRC, Fall to Flame doesn't do any damage anymore (does it?) I think it's just a mitigation debuff now. So add all those factors up, and it's a VERY slow wind-up.

TBH, WRT the 3 set Puignor bonus, I had that before U6. The bonus is DEFINITELY a boost to long-term DPS, but it was also a boost before U6, so it washes out when comparing parses pre/post U6. Before I had it, i was parsing ~800 dps on Erebun T2. After, I was hitting 1000 on him regularly. Last night, I parsed 3 in a row (using 3 different rotations), an did 780, 800, and 880 DPS sequentially. The last fight, I actually peaked over 900, but I think it fell again before I hit F11. At one point, I think I got betweeen 1000 and 1100, but it was over in a flash. Could have been a big crit, which would have made it an outlier AFA the statistics are concerned.

Work calls! I'll lay some rotation details out later. No, I don't really use WoC, but it's something I'll think about. Free Writs ARE kinda nice. I usually find myself using WoH though. Between the aggro issues in groups and soloing, I usually need the morale.

FYI, Calming Verse is junk now, as far as aggro reduction is concerned. Total Nerf, all around. Distracting Winds is more useful.

[Therubor]

Work calls! I'll lay some rotation details out later. No, I don't really use WoC, but it's something I'll think about. Free Writs ARE kinda nice. I usually find myself using WoH though. Between the aggro issues in groups and soloing, I usually need the morale.

FYI, Calming Verse is junk now, as far as aggro reduction is concerned. Total Nerf, all around. Distracting Winds is more useful.

Use the MoC version of WoC or WoF instead of WoH. Might help you get to max attunement faster while still giving you a bit more health.

And yes, I agree that CV sucks. DW is quite a bit better.

[cwrons]

I DO believe that because of the dramatic changes to the way RK's do fire damage, it's HARDER to reach the same DPS numbers as before. I was able to reach 900 DPS against Erebun. The thing is, I think it's a little TOO hard to reach the same DPS numbers as before.

Being harder to reach max DPS is not a bad thing, It will make the class a little bit more interesting to play. If nothing else it will show the difference between a GOOD RK and a GREAT RK. I think making a class hard enough to show the difference between 2 types of players (good and great) is a step in the right direction. We don't need more "Click n' Kill" classes imo

[ifreborn1]

The hard fact is the RK is now doing 30-40% less damage than hunters champs in a group setting.

those dials?




Maybe a class that can heal and buff like a mini now should not have the DPS of a hunter or champ. Just be honest with us about it.

PS>> we all know the game needs more tanks healers and captains anyway.

[Bradegor]

The hard fact is the RK is now doing 30-40% less damage than hunters champs in a group setting.

those dials?




Maybe a class that can heal and buff like a mini now should not have the DPS of a hunter or champ. Just be honest with us about it.

Are you serious, or just got bored and wanted to have fun? :P

[Telcharan]

It's not just the IEoF change. Fall to our Wrath no longer does 1000 damage up front. Calming Verse no longer adds that extra 10% of damage up front. IIRC, Fall to Flame doesn't do any damage anymore (does it?) I think it's just a mitigation debuff now. So add all those factors up, and it's a VERY slow wind-up.

Fall to Flame still does damage, in fact I think it does more damage than it used to. Around 700 from what I remember; I can't check as Arkenstone is in the middle of a restart. The loss of CV is a non-factor; we get the +10% back via +5% on the capstone and +1% on each of the traits, so if you go with a full 7 you're netting 2% more than with CV. Pretty much all of the loss of upfront is due to the IEoF change. I do like fire better than it was before the update, but it definitely takes more time to ramp up now. It's still much better than it was prior to ROI though.

FYI, Calming Verse is junk now, as far as aggro reduction is concerned. Total Nerf, all around. Distracting Winds is more useful.

Well, it's not designed for aggro reduction. It's designed to get a mob off of you and back onto the tank, and in my experience it does that very well. At the moment I'm making a practice of using DW every time it's up on the boss to try and avoid getting threat at all, and saving CV for when I actually pull aggro. DW is useful for dropping threat, but CV is better at getting a mob off of you in a hurry, especially later in a fight.

[nikosi]

after servers will be reuped i will craft my first age fire stone and compare it to my first age lightening stone.
till now, my second age fire stone does the same damage a first age lightening stone does... i think damage in raid will be slightly higher than lightening damage.

whats wrong with the 5 set orthanc bonus?

[PerfectApproach]

Use the MoC version of WoC or WoF instead of WoH. Might help you get to max attunement faster while still giving you a bit more health.

And yes, I agree that CV sucks. DW is quite a bit better.

Ok, so here's the rotations I tested:

==
1) FR, IEoF, insta-FR, MF, FR...

...and here's where it gets weird. At this point, I'm at 5 attunement, I have 3 FR's, a T3 WoF, and MF all ticking, and I have a free Writ waiting. WoH and Prelude (and maybe Self-Mot) at this point will help if I'm taking a bunch of damage. I'd use these normally while soloing, or if I was trying to hero-solo something and DPS didn't matter. However, not only do these soak up time (reducing my DPS), but they also detune me. Using just the 2 heal skills only sets me back to 3, but the Self-Mot on top puts me back to 1 or 0. DEFINITELY not good for a raw DPS test, but VERY GOOD to have the option in case I get in over my head...

...insta-WoF (yeah, it's a waste of power, but I need it for quick attunement)...
...MF, Essence, FR, SmW.

At the end of the SmW channel, I'm hitting Erebun for around 700-800 DPS. Underwhelming.
==
2) IEoF, insta-FR, FR, MF, FR, insta-WoF (for attunement), Essence, FR, MF (again, attunement), SmW.

Gross waste of power. It's extremely inelegant to use the WoF and the MF and not actually need to refresh them. There has GOT to be a better way! DPS on Erebun was meh. 800-ish. (This was the Aha! moment though... when I realized I'd be able to get back to where I was pre-U6.) It was also reminiscent of the "spamming FR" days between RoI and U6. Bleh.
==
3) WoF, FR, WoF, MF, FR, insta-WoF, Essence, FR, FR, SmW.

That's more like it! 900-ish DPS. MUCH closer to where I wanted to be. No wasted power, I was up to 9 attunement in a reasonably short amount of time, and DPS was in the ballpark. (An infield single, we'll call it.) Feels strange not to use IEoF though.
==
4) FR, WoF, FR, MF, WoF, FR, IEoF, insta-Essence, FR, SmW.

Firstly, the IEoF is a gross waste of power because T2 WoF is already ticking. Secondly, the induction of IEoF is roughly the same as Essence anyway. Might as well use the third WoF. It also felt weird using WoF as a 5th skill... right BEFORE the T5 MoC buff. Roughly the same DPS numbers at #3, but less power-efficient and more weird.
==
At any time during these rotations, I could have substituted MF for FR for the faster attunement. This killed my DPS though. MF doesn't stack, doesn't do any initial damage, uses more power, and is only really useful as an attunement bump in a couple of spots anyway. That said, I LOVE the fact that it doesn't do any initial damage. Being instant was very weird for me though. I'd almost rather have higher damage/greater threat reduction per tick in exchange for some kind of WoF-sized induction. I don't expect anyone else will agree with me on that point though.

All said, the 3rd rotation seemed the most "elegant." Not using IEoF is just too weird though, and this is the whole point I've been trying to make to Zombie the whole time: Wrath of Flame used to have a great feel. Timings were perfect. Fiery Ridicule fit EXACTLY into a WoF cooldown. Now, there's an awkward half-second where you feel like you wish you could do something, but everything else either not available yet, already ticking (i.e. wasting power), or takes TOO long (i.e. WoF will be off cooldown and waiting). Also Essence of Flame used to have an 8-second duration, and Smouldering Wrath used to have an 8-second induction. Using Essence right before Smouldering was "elegant." It fit like a puzzle piece. Further still, the duration of a tier of WoF used to last the exact cooldown time of Essence of Flame. As such, Essence could be used as an effective tier-timer. If Essence was coming off cooldown, it was time to refresh WoF.

These nice, neat timings that fit together like puzzle pieces don't exist anymore. It feels disjointed now. It feels like the Leap Year of fire rotations.

If were to squeeze WoC in there anywhere, it would be at the late-rotation after Essence. FR's there are just attunement-builders, although the extra DoT stacks don't hurt. I haven't parsed anything like that yet, although at some point I will. The reasons I wouldn't stick them in beforehand:
1) Only fire skills contribute to the T5 MoC buff, which is important for that 1 instant skill. Slipping WoC into the early rotation in place of, say, a FR would mean that I'd have to wait until my 6th skill for a MoC instant fire skill. It would throw off my attunement/MoC buff balance.
2) Using the MoC buff on WoC would mean I'd only reach T2 WoF before I was able to use Essence. One of the staples of my rotation is that Essence is used as soon as it is available. Because of how much damage Essence does, any delay in its use means a reduction in DPS. (MAKING ESSENCE A DOT AGAIN WOULD MITIGATE THIS REDUCTION, FYI.) I'd be forced to either use Essence before WoF was tiered up (reducing its damage) or waiting for another WoF induction, delaying it. The damage from the use of WoC would probably not make up for the loss of DPS from Essence. Someone should test it!

[ifreborn1]

after servers will be reuped i will craft my first age fire stone and compare it to my first age lightening stone.
till now, my second age fire stone does the same damage a first age lightening stone does... i think damage in raid will be slightly higher than lightening damage.

whats wrong with the 5 set orthanc bonus?

you will do 5-10% more damage with fire than lightning and around 30%+ less damage than a champ or hunter.

My tests. The loss of the dragon set and the huge pulse of damage every 30 seconds is huge.

Did i mention lighting is epic solo and in the moors? Best overall solo class in the game by far now and pair me with a captian in the moors and I can make a army of creeps QQ.

Healing is also almost at mini level. I guess we have our group roll picked for us.

[Fasin]

30%+ less damage than a champ or hunter.

You're funny.

[PerfectApproach]

you will do ... around 30%+ less damage than a champ or hunter.

My tests.

Parses or it didn't happen. Specifically, I'd like to see a screenie of a champ or hunter taking down Erebun Tier 2 (Rift Skirmish) at 1300+ dps with NO skirmish trait buffs. Use a healer soldier, and unslot all the yellow skirmish traits that buff anything offensive.

[PerfectApproach]

Well, it's not designed for aggro reduction. It's designed to get a mob off of you and back onto the tank

Doesn't "getting a mob off of you and back onto the tank" = aggro reduction?

What you basically said was:
"Well, it's not designed to be an elephant. It's designed to be an elephant."

[Telcharan]

Doesn't "getting a mob off of you and back onto the tank" = aggro reduction?

Perhaps if you don't understand how perceived threat works. The new CV does not reduce the amount of aggro you have or are generating one bit; what it does do is reduce the amount of aggro the mob perceives you as having. Say it's deep in a fight and you have 300,000 aggro on a mob when it decides to jump off the tank and onto you. You pop DW and it might take you down to 290,000 or so (this is a rather generous estimate; I haven't seen anyone with actual numbers for the new DW yet). Maybe it will send the mob back to the tank, maybe not, it depends on circumstances. You pop CV though, and the amount of aggro you have stays at 300,000, but what the mob perceives is 225,000. If that doesn't send it back to the tank, nothing will. Of course, the amount of actual aggro you have stays the same, but it gives the tank 10 seconds to reestablish threat where the mob is beating on him instead of you. If the tank is competent and you reduce DPS a bit to give him time to catch up, that should be enough time.

What you basically said was:
"Well, it's not designed to be an elephant. It's designed to be an elephant."

A more apt analogue for what I said would be "Well, it's not designed to be an elephant. It's designed to make you think it's an elephant, temporarily."

[Raven-EU]

Also Essence of Flame used to have an 8-second duration, and Smouldering Wrath used to have an 8-second induction. Using Essence right before Smouldering was "elegant."

(MAKING ESSENCE A DOT AGAIN WOULD MITIGATE THIS REDUCTION, FYI.)

I think you can stop flogging the dead horse already. The horse is not only dead and skinned, it has been burried and eaten by worms. There is nothing left to flog!

Some things I noticed from the short time I got to parse on BR. On longer fights:

*) FR is the main contributor to fire damage. (about 1.5x-2x the #2 contributor)
*) MF is the second highest contributor to fire damage.
*) Re-applying WoF before it's due does not help in any way (except to build attunement and burn power). 5-set bonus might help a little.
*) Not using WoC in the instant slot does not increase DPS.
*) iEoF have gone from highly active to very situational. (would love to see a threat nullifying effect added: iEoF - the next skill have no induction and generates no threat).
*) SmW is freaking awesome once it gets going
*) Including Essence of Winter in my rotations have never resulted in higher DPS (long term).

I didn't think of how the instant MF could be used to swap power for attunement. Tricky that one! If I have 15+ cooldown reduction from the legacy I can hit MF 3 times to get to attunement 6, i.e. FR-iEoF-FR-MF-MF-MF-Essence. Sure it won't do any damage at all and will cost a bucket-load of power but there's no faster way (disregarding consumables) to take me from 3->6. In fact, in an AoE situation I might very well go something like: FR-iEoF-FR-MF-TAB-MF-TAB-MF-[select 1st mob again]-Essence-SR-WoC-FR-... just to get threat reduction on the "side trash".

On a side note. I didn't remember last night if you used to to Tier-1 or Tier-2 of the Rift skirmish so I tried out t1. The fight was so short it was ridiculous! I didn't even get to SmW before he died. Need to test on Tier-2

[PerfectApproach]

Perhaps if you don't understand how perceived threat works. The new CV does not reduce the amount of aggro you have or are generating one bit; what it does do is reduce the amount of aggro the mob perceives you as having. Say it's deep in a fight and you have 300,000 aggro on a mob when it decides to jump off the tank and onto you. You pop DW and it might take you down to 290,000 or so (this is a rather generous estimate; I haven't seen anyone with actual numbers for the new DW yet). Maybe it will send the mob back to the tank, maybe not, it depends on circumstances. You pop CV though, and the amount of aggro you have stays at 300,000, but what the mob perceives is 225,000. If that doesn't send it back to the tank, nothing will. Of course, the amount of actual aggro you have stays the same, but it gives the tank 10 seconds to reestablish threat where the mob is beating on him instead of you. If the tank is competent and you reduce DPS a bit to give him time to catch up, that should be enough time.



A more apt analogue for what I said would be "Well, it's not designed to be an elephant. It's designed to make you think it's an elephant, temporarily."

I fully undertand how threat/perceived threat work. What I'm saying is that it's not effective enough. Calming Verse pre-U6 used to be enough to ensure RK's rarely ever drew aggro. Now, we are drawing aggro like crazy. Calming Verse DOES NOT cause the mob to move back to the tank.

Either CV should reduce ACTUAL aggro (ie, a permanent aggro reduction), or CV should remove a drastically higher amount of perceived aggro for its duration (something like 75%).

The problem I am seeing is that once I pop CV (and inevitably DW, when CV doesn't do what I need it to do), the mob breaks off for .5 seconds, and then runs right back to me. DoT's are already ticking. I can't un-apply any DoT's, so even if I stop hitting the mob, it still comes right back. And this is with a fairly good tank.

The new CV appears to be doing what it is designed to do. It's just not enough. The Old CV was better at reducing threat PROBLEMS, regardless of how much actual threat/perceived threat was generated.

Anyway... this is a Fire DPS thread. *Looks at self* Malf, stop derailing your own threads!