Warden Threat Update 6

[Shintagh]

Why not let everyone know what 'x' really is? Put it in the character screen along side all the other stats.

I always thought 'x' was the auto attack damage.

[il_Fibonacci]

Why not let everyone know what 'x' really is? Put it in the character screen along side all the other stats.

X=42

Moar werds

[Lazlo_Hollyfeld]

Does anybody know if the "Fist Gambit Critical Rating" legacy will increase the chance of a threat crit? Could this be a stealth threat up legacy?

[Graalx2]

Thanks Graal.
Did I miss something apart from Fi-Sp Threat up or does he mean TV trait​?

It appears that almost all of the old +Threat Legacies have been re-purposed. So err, yes, I meant the Fi-Sp Threat up legacy.

[Graalx2]

Does anybody know if the "Fist Gambit Critical Rating" legacy will increase the chance of a threat crit? Could this be a stealth threat up legacy?

No it doesn't increase the chance of a threat crit. Warden threat effects only accept percentage based modifiers to crit chance. It sounds like a decent idea for a new legacy though.

[Lazlo_Hollyfeld]

No it doesn't increase the chance of a threat crit. Warden threat effects only accept percentage based modifiers to crit chance. It sounds like a decent idea for a new legacy though.

[JLotro]

It appears that almost all of the old +Threat Legacies have been re-purposed. So err, yes, I meant the Fi-Sp Threat up legacy.

Is it *possible* then that our base-line threat was set lower with
the expectation that we would be increasing it with several legacies,
but as it turns out that there is only ONE (which I have) and that is
why it feels a bit on the low to some of us?

[forceofnone]

Is it *possible* then that our base-line threat was set lower with
the expectation that we would be increasing it with several legacies,
but as it turns out that there is only ONE (which I have) and that is
why it feels a bit on the low to some of us?

Seems a little more likely that Graal was helpfully trying to explain the connection back to a post from long ago when he was in charge of warden development and got the same sort of warden culture shock we've all experienced with Orion's Massively Multi-Gambit Warden Revamp. If Orion had said something like this, maybe you'd be on to something....


More generally, can we try to be clearer about what we are comparing our threat perceptions to? I have a sense that when some people say threat post-update seems lower and others say it seems higher the difference would make a lot more sense if we knew what rotation pre- and post-update each of them was comparing. As it is, I can't make heads or tails of the experiences being reported in these discussions. They are almost as vague about threat as the in-game information.

[horus418]

More generally, can we try to be clearer about what we are comparing our threat perceptions to? I have a sense that when some people say threat post-update seems lower and others say it seems higher the difference would make a lot more sense if we knew what rotation pre- and post-update each of them was comparing. As it is, I can't make heads or tails of the experiences being reported in these discussions. They are almost as vague about threat as the in-game information.

It is actually very easy to test out threat, just go hit a Limlight mob with (insert threat skill here), don't auto-attack and have DPS open up at the right time and see when the mob turns. Take that info and apply it to group play and you'll get a very good idea of what you have to do to get a good threat lead on the group you run with. Threat has gone down for sure but my testing shows that EoB with TV trait and threat legacy is roughly 30,000 worth of damage. 30,000 worth of damage per skill execution is huge, not even counting the threat you'll be building/leaching just from putting self buffs up.

Armed with that information, I still can't see needing any more threat. How is it that people are losing aggro when you can get such a large lead from only EoB alone?

HAVING SAID THAT... MAKE SURE TO READ BELOW...

There have been a couple of times recently where my threat has been in the toilet. I was losing many mobs when even spamming EoB, and kept thinking ###... I made sure I was in the proper stance, and still things were peeling from one Raging Blade a few seconds after the fight started. The last 2 times this happened, I re-logged my warden and the issue was fixed immediately. The next time this happens I'll make sure to bug it.

[Graalx2]

Is it *possible* then that our base-line threat was set lower with
the expectation that we would be increasing it with several legacies,
but as it turns out that there is only ONE (which I have) and that is
why it feels a bit on the low to some of us?

Base line threat balancing does not use the presence or absence of any particular +threat legacies. Legacies are intended to be bonuses not requirements.

[JuanD]

There have been a couple of times recently where my threat has been in the toilet. I was losing many mobs when even spamming EoB, and kept thinking ###... I made sure I was in the proper stance, and still things were peeling from one Raging Blade a few seconds after the fight started. The last 2 times this happened, I re-logged my warden and the issue was fixed immediately. The next time this happens I'll make sure to bug it.

That sounds extremely weird to say the least, but is good to have the info, thanks.

Is someone else experiencing this? Maybe this at least one of the reasons why the opinios about threat are so different. Anyway, this need to be looked at by the devs ASAP to verify what is going on

[JLotro]

It is actually very easy to test out threat, just go hit a Limlight mob with (insert threat skill here), don't auto-attack and have DPS open up at the right time and see when the mob turns. Take that info and apply it to group play and you'll get a very good idea of what you have to do to get a good threat lead on the group you run with. Threat has gone down for sure but my testing shows that EoB with TV trait and threat legacy is roughly 30,000 worth of damage. 30,000 worth of damage per skill execution is huge, not even counting the threat you'll be building/leaching just from putting self buffs up.

Armed with that information, I still can't see needing any more threat. How is it that people are losing aggro when you can get such a large lead from only EoB alone?

HAVING SAID THAT... MAKE SURE TO READ BELOW...

There have been a couple of times recently where my threat has been in the toilet. I was losing many mobs when even spamming EoB, and kept thinking ###... I made sure I was in the proper stance, and still things were peeling from one Raging Blade a few seconds after the fight started. The last 2 times this happened, I re-logged my warden and the issue was fixed immediately. The next time this happens I'll make sure to bug it.

Horus, I am glad to see that you have finally seen the problem!

Yes, 30K from EOB should be enough, but it must not always be
working that way. I have experienced it more than a couple
times and have wondered if my toon was uniquely bugged.

[JLotro]

Seems a little more likely that Graal was helpfully trying to explain the connection back to a post from long ago when he was in charge of warden development and got the same sort of warden culture shock we've all experienced with Orion's Massively Multi-Gambit Warden Revamp. If Orion had said something like this, maybe you'd be on to something....


More generally, can we try to be clearer about what we are comparing our threat perceptions to? I have a sense that when some people say threat post-update seems lower and others say it seems higher the difference would make a lot more sense if we knew what rotation pre- and post-update each of them was comparing. As it is, I can't make heads or tails of the experiences being reported in these discussions. They are almost as vague about threat as the in-game information.

Re #1
Well I figure Graal is "in the know" a lot more than any regular
member of the forum, so it seemed worth asking.

Re #2
Often when threat problems are mentioned I see replies about
adjusting rotations. By the time I am mentioning a problem
I have already tried various permutations without solving the
problem. I am not comparing rotation X before and after the
update. I am comparing threat - the best I can achieve with
any combination.

[Shintagh]

Threat has gone down for sure but my testing shows that EoB with TV trait and threat legacy is roughly 30,000 worth of damage. 30,000 worth of damage per skill execution is huge, not even counting the threat you'll be building/leaching just from putting self buffs up.

Are you sure its 30k? I saw in other threads that it was 14k. May be they measured without TV + Legacy. I never bothered to test it myself because I've had 0 problems with threat. If it is 30k as you over 16 sec that means almost 2k tps which means 2 eob every 16sec should make sure nothing is ever pulled off of you, no matter how may burgs you have. That's what I do now and nothing is ever pulled off of me but I was working under the 14k per eob threat so I also hit 2xagression every rotation. But if it is as you say then 2xaggression in every rotation is redundant and walaa! i have more time for buffs/heals.

So just to confirm you say that eob+tv+legacy will give us 30k or at least 25k(if we get unlucky with threat crits) threat in 16 sec?

[horus418]

Are you sure its 30k? I saw in other threads that it was 14k. May be they measured without TV + Legacy. I never bothered to test it myself because I've had 0 problems with threat. If it is 30k as you over 16 sec that means almost 2k tps which means 2 eob every 16sec should make sure nothing is ever pulled off of you, no matter how may burgs you have. That's what I do now and nothing is ever pulled off of me but I was working under the 14k per eob threat so I also hit 2xagression every rotation. But if it is as you say then 2xaggression in every rotation is redundant and walaa! i have more time for buffs/heals.

So just to confirm you say that eob+tv+legacy will give us 30k or at least 25k(if we get unlucky with threat crits) threat in 16 sec?

Yes, EoB + TV + Legacy = at least 25,000 damage worth of threat. I'd hit the mob with EoB, wait for the full threat to tick off and tell my wife (LM/Hunter), to go to town. Sometimes she'd pull at 28k, sometimes at 31, so I figured saying roughly 30k is fine.

Also, I'd have her initiate combat sometimes with one skill to see how SoV will pull the mob back. While on her LM, if she'd start out with Burning Embers or LotrD, one single SoV would pull the mob to me, IF IT HIT. I didn't get too specific with that test, I just wanted a rough idea of what would happens if somebody accidentally popped off a skill first, so these were hits at and under 2k damage that I was pulling off. Ents or a Remorseless auto-crit type hit, I'm sure would be a different story.

[transpec]

I lost an instance twice in a row the other day due to not being able to pull threat off a NPC no matter what I did, logged out and came back later and I didn't even have to try to generate threat that time. The first couple times the game was laggy but the last try I had no lag at all.

Various Wardens claiming very different viewpoints on threat honestly makes sense to me, I mean, some Wardens can't log in at all, some have to trick the system to log in, every time I log in I get a tool tip informing me I have items, the lag issues, mounts stalling out, etc. I'm guessing all of these issues are connected in some strange befuddling way.

[danno8]

Yes, EoB + TV + Legacy = at least 25,000 damage worth of threat. I'd hit the mob with EoB, wait for the full threat to tick off and tell my wife (LM/Hunter), to go to town. Sometimes she'd pull at 28k, sometimes at 31, so I figured saying roughly 30k is fine.

Also, I'd have her initiate combat sometimes with one skill to see how SoV will pull the mob back. While on her LM, if she'd start out with Burning Embers or LotrD, one single SoV would pull the mob to me, IF IT HIT. I didn't get too specific with that test, I just wanted a rough idea of what would happens if somebody accidentally popped off a skill first, so these were hits at and under 2k damage that I was pulling off. Ents or a Remorseless auto-crit type hit, I'm sure would be a different story.

A little while back in another thread I noted that threat for EoB + TV was well over 20k for me also, while others in the thread had pegged it at aroung 15k. We basically attributed it to critting threat, but as threat is invisible and you don't get to see big floaty crit text for threat it would be tough to show imperically.

I really hope this is not another wierd issue where those who have equipped a certain piece of gear are somehow getting bigger threat crits/base threat than others. Although it would go a long way to explaining different experiences in instances.

Threat for me has been very easy. I did Foundry for the 1st time last night (T2 no less) and never lost threat at all during the instance. I was expecting to struggle with buffs/threat balance but did not have any. And I do not consider myself to be a Waden as I tend to mess up my rotations when things get frantic.

[horus418]

A little while back in another thread I noted that threat for EoB + TV was well over 20k for me also, while others in the thread had pegged it at aroung 15k. We basically attributed it to critting threat, but as threat is invisible and you don't get to see big floaty crit text for threat it would be tough to show imperically.

IIRC, the other info I read the posters never mentioned also using the legacy along with TV. We tested this out quite a bit, I find it hard to believe that I crit threat every single time, especially being that my crit rating is garbage for my tank build. If I get time, I'll go try it without the legacy.

[danno8]

IIRC, the other info I read the posters never mentioned also using the legacy along with TV. We tested this out quite a bit, I find it hard to believe that I crit threat every single time, especially being that my crit rating is garbage for my tank build. If I get time, I'll go try it without the legacy.

The op in this thread never did come back and say it was with TV you are right. It was others who speculated that part.

In which case does TV make that huge a difference? I use both TV and the fi-sp legacy maxed out.

[JLotro]

I lost an instance twice in a row the other day due to not being able to pull threat off a NPC no matter what I did, logged out and came back later and I didn't even have to try to generate threat that time. The first couple times the game was laggy but the last try I had no lag at all.

Various Wardens claiming very different viewpoints on threat honestly makes sense to me, I mean, some Wardens can't log in at all, some have to trick the system to log in, every time I log in I get a tool tip informing me I have items, the lag issues, mounts stalling out, etc. I'm guessing all of these issues are connected in some strange befuddling way.

Funny you mention logging in. I have a very fast machine and good
net connection and still my login can take a few minutes. It used
to be faster. I have found that I can speed it up by clicking off the
game to any other window while it is loading and then clicking back
on the game a couple seconds later. Often after I do this the game
will load within 10 seconds.

[danno8]

Funny you mention logging in. I have a very fast machine and good
net connection and still my login can take a few minutes. It used
to be faster. I have found that I can speed it up by clicking off the
game to any other window while it is loading and then clicking back
on the game a couple seconds later. Often after I do this the game
will load within 10 seconds.

BR just came up (actually it is up but broken/ giving errors at the login screen) so let's see if any of this nonsense has been fixed. Nothing in the release notes about it though.

[Snoman73]

wow, U7 already? man turbine must be gettin on the ball! i read the patch notes for BR, seems a few good things in there, now we just gotta look for stealth changes!

[Leighf]

That description is on an item from pre update 6, maybe even pre-Moria, and, frankly, is something you will stop using when you get your legendary items going into Moria. So... probably the size is pretty small now, but was big for its time, pre-legendary item release..

Yeah, I've had my legendaries for a long time, but I still swap it in sometimes for range pulling(AoE javelin especially) and it does seem to make a difference. It's easy enough to switch back to my legendary after the pull so I have never gotten rid of it. I was only asking since I have never seen another item with "Sizable" listed and wanted an idea where it fell in the ranges that are being discussed here.

Maybe it's just one of those one off things.

Thanks,

Leighf

[Anteatrz]

ok not sure if this was addressed in another thread (license to slap me if it has been answered), is there a difference in threat generated from a legendary jav versus a non-legendary jav? For example, http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Weapon:War-Ender

[Nydorewyth]

ok not sure if this was addressed in another thread (license to slap me if it has been answered), is there a difference in threat generated from a legendary jav versus a non-legendary jav? For example, http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Weapon:War-Ender

The level 75 version of that would give you a threat boost during ranged combat. But you would lose your relics, your legacies, and potentially have lower DPS which also contributes to ranged threat. Ultimately it would probably not be worthwhile since we don't really have threat problems currently.

I guess if you're with hunters and RKs who don't wait for you to get close enough for EoB, it might be helpful to swap to this, hit JoDF for big damage and the threat boost, then swap back while you close to melee range. Bit of a hassle though for dubious benefit.