Update 7: Developer Diary Feedback: Fornost

[Clover]

Fornost is next on our upgrade train as we march up through the instances of LOTRO. Read more in the latest Developer Diary from Joe 'jwbarry' Barry and post your comments here!

[Armaius]

Looks good. It'll be nice to have other 6-Mans to play besides Roots/Foundry.

[Harrold]

Sounds great and I'm really looking forward to it! I have one question regarding something stated in the diary.

"Our goal with these changes is to make Fornost the second set of 6-man spaces you encounter while leveling up."

With this stated intention, what becomes of Garth Agarwen? It was the first space to get the splitting up treatment but has never been revisted to get the scaled instance treatment. It traditionally was always the second instance players would get to while leveling. It sounds like the Fornost revamp will totally make GA irrelevant in the short term. I'd love to know if there's any plans to make it relevant again any time soon.

[Mourwen]

It will be great to see another 75 instance. However, why not seals? Medallions are easy to get.

[Dolenmir]

Sounds great and I'm really looking forward to it! I have one question regarding something stated in the diary.

"Our goal with these changes is to make Fornost the second set of 6-man spaces you encounter while leveling up."

With this stated intention, what becomes of Garth Agarwen? It was the first space to get the splitting up treatment but has never been revisted to get the scaled instance treatment. It traditionally was always the second instance players would get to while leveling. It sounds like the Fornost revamp will totally make GA irrelevant in the short term. I'd love to know if there's any plans to make it relevant again any time soon.

Because the lower level requirement is dropping to 30; GB at 25, Fornost 30 and then GA at 36.

[Fipiara]

I appreciate the amount of work that went into breaking up Fornost. From what I've seen, of all the instances broken up and scaled these seem to be very well done.

It will be great to see another 75 instance. However, why not seals? Medallions are easy to get.

I would think that the challenges will grant seals similar to other 6-man scaling instances. I think the reference to medallions vs. marks is specifically to the optional questions (i.e. Killing ## of a mob, burning/collect ## object). As these are available at all levels and you don't have to complete the instances for these, I doubt they'd ever grant seals.

Having them grant medallions instead of marks will hopefully make up the difference between the rewards for scaling instances and Isengard. Isengard will probably still benefit from a higher base reward amount and (probably just as important) a much smaller pool of instances to be picked via the IF.

Will this be only for Fornost or will this apply to all scaling instances? (Would especially love it if it were the latter )

[Malachi108]

It will be great to see another 75 instance. However, why not seals? Medallions are easy to get.

Challenge quests award Seals. Optional quests award medallions. Same as Annuminas and GB instances currently, except their optional quests award marks only.

what becomes of Garth Agarwen? It was the first space to get the splitting up treatment but has never been revisted to get the scaled instance treatment. It traditionally was always the second instance players would get to while leveling. It sounds like the Fornost revamp will totally make GA irrelevant in the short term. I'd love to know if there's any plans to make it relevant again any time soon.

I second that. With Fornost change it will become the lowest non-scaled instance, irrelevant for everyone past level 35. However, Garth Agarwen is SO ready to be scaled! It's already been split, already has challenge quests and optional quests - all you need to do is make it scalable, remove the trash loot, move chest loot and whatever you barter for Eglain tokens to Skirmish camp and add new currency and loot rewards. It should take much less man-hours than Fornost revamp, because it's already half-way to be scaled.

[stockboy]

Looks great, can't wait to start playing it. It looks like it will be a good way for lower level (and newer players) to get used to the variety of fight mechanics.

[MoonwalkIntoMordor]

I am against instance splitting, but I will give credit where it is due. I dislike uninspired, boring boss fights. Old Fornost had a lot of those. Pretty much all the fights except for the four Wraiths were awfully straightforward with little to no player awareness required. Glad to hear that the boss fights have been throughly revamped.

Looking forward to trying them out.

[gildhur]

Long overdue and looking forward to diving into it. I wish there were a way to proceed directly from instance to instance to maintain the immersion of the entire space instead of having to leave and join the next one from the landscape, but I understand the technical limitations.

Glad Sara Oakheart got to stick around to torment us.

[brunnhilda]

So sad, Let the dumbing down of content continue!! Huzzah!!

[gildhur]

So sad, Let the dumbing down of content continue!! Huzzah!!

Have you played it on Bullroarer?

[Wanderv]

Have you played it on Bullroarer?

Obviously no as it can't be called "dumbed down"

[Morosi]

I'm really pleased to read about these changes, looking forward to see how it all plays once implemented! I'm sure I'm not the only one who's never been able to experience the whole place because of group members dropping out due to it taking so long to play through.

Oh and I don't see this as 'dumbing down' content, I see it as a common sense change. If you read the dev diary, you would've read the part about Fornost flat-lining, meaning no-one or almost no-one was playing it. Therefore these changes should help breathe life into a dead instance, and help to make it relevant for a variety of level ranges; not just a handful of level 30s.

[Keirion]

Sounds great and I'm really looking forward to it! I have one question regarding something stated in the diary.

"Our goal with these changes is to make Fornost the second set of 6-man spaces you encounter while leveling up."

With this stated intention, what becomes of Garth Agarwen? It was the first space to get the splitting up treatment but has never been revisted to get the scaled instance treatment. It traditionally was always the second instance players would get to while leveling. It sounds like the Fornost revamp will totally make GA irrelevant in the short term. I'd love to know if there's any plans to make it relevant again any time soon.

Others have made great points about this, and I would also love to see, GA scaled.

But, also GA is not a set of 6-man instances. Even if it was available starting at level 25, it would still be 2 3-man instances and 1 6-man instance, not a set of 6-mans...

Also, GA Fortress still has the best music in the game.

[Ingaras]

More Medallions?? I run RoF and Foundry for its Seals and get plenty of Medallions in the process. If they're to be competitive, they've got to have a similar Seal/hr rate...

As for breaking it up and scaling it: So far I've found it a disappointment, but Fornost is the one instance that probably needed it most... but I just can't understand why does every single 6-man need to have the same 45-60 mins target time and have similar buildup with 2 or 3 bosses with comparable sets of 'special effects'? Can't we have one or two that do target players who like more extensive instances?

I've recently been solo-ing/duo-ing Urugarth and am still impressed by it: it's such a different atmosphere from any of the recent instances. Clear sky... you're able to look ahead. Non-linear paths through the instance. Areas that mean sudden death if you're walking in unprepared. Patrols that run off to call for help and pull half the instance upon you if you don't get them... instead of silly Orcs that just stand there and watch you slaughter their friends. Compared to that the newer instances feel much more scripted and rigid.

[LeppardUK]

I'm not really pro-splitting instances but this seems like a good idea. I've only ever started Fornost once and that ended quite fast as people realized it would take hooooours. It also gives me some incentive to buy the ND quest pack.

Even if Fornost is made a little easier, and there's no indication yet that this is the case, we're not losing anything. People barely played it anyway, so there's hardly a huge percentage of people who liked the level of hardness or whatever of the old Fornost. And giving us some new instances to do is great.

I have one big fear - I hope this doesn't mean other SoA instances will also be scaled/cut into pieces. If Urugarth or Carn Dum are touched, I shall come after the dev responsible with a big hammer.

[wikjif]

[...]I have one big fear - I hope this doesn't mean other SoA instances will also be scaled/cut into pieces. If Urugarth or Carn Dum are touched, I shall come after the dev responsible with a big hammer.

I have a feeling that Urugarth, CD, and Rift will probably be at the end of the SoA instance revamps and that Barad Guluran and GA will probably come first.

After SoA is done then the logical conclusion is that Moria instances are next.

[Lothirien]

I have one big fear - I hope this doesn't mean other SoA instances will also be scaled/cut into pieces. If Urugarth or Carn Dum are touched, I shall come after the dev responsible with a big hammer.

I (sort of) understand the dislike for splitting instances, but why would anyone be against scaling?

[Widoch]

I'm not really pro-splitting instances but this seems like a good idea. I've only ever started Fornost once and that ended quite fast as people realized it would take hooooours. It also gives me some incentive to buy the ND quest pack.

Even if Fornost is made a little easier, and there's no indication yet that this is the case, we're not losing anything. People barely played it anyway, so there's hardly a huge percentage of people who liked the level of hardness or whatever of the old Fornost. And giving us some new instances to do is great.

I have one big fear - I hope this doesn't mean other SoA instances will also be scaled/cut into pieces. If Urugarth or Carn Dum are touched, I shall come after the dev responsible with a big hammer.

I would be all in favor of Uru and CD getting scaled. Then they would be interesting again. Nearly every instance in this game needs to be playable from a certain minimum level to the cap. I honestly didn't even know Urugarth and CD existed until I was so far over level they weren't interesting to play. I would imagine a majority of players quest and level without ever joining in 6 man instances until much later in the game. I know I did. As a new player, I just didn't really understand the whole system and didn't know to look for a 6-man fellowship until later. I never ran GB until I was in my 50s. I didn't know what it was.

As far as chopping them up, I don't see what the problem is. If you like 4 hour runs, then play the sections back to back. The number of people who would do a 4 hour Fornost run from start to finish is a very small minority of the players. However, the number of people who would put 30 - 60 min into an instance are much bigger. So, it just makes sense to break them up for the majority rather than neglect the majority to please a small minority. The minority can run back-to-back if they really want.

[Lestache]

I (sort of) understand the dislike for splitting instances, but why would anyone be against scaling?

Personally, I'm against scaling because it's developer time spent redoing old content that could instead be spent producing new content.

[FromgalTheMinstrel]

Personally, I'm against scaling because it's developer time spent redoing old content that could instead be spent producing new content.

That's a falacy. Not because something is new it has to be necessarily better.
The old instances from SoA have more attention to detail on them, better planning and design, and often they are more original (funny enough, being older) than the latest ones. They attempted new ideas on those when the game was new and the developers were daring.
Most of the newer instances since Dar Narbugund have repeated the unoriginal pattern of Trash Section -> Choreography fight with boss -> Trash section -> Choreography fight with boss...
(Notable exceptions to this rule being "Inn of the Forsaken", the fumbled "Dungeons of Dol Guldur", and maybe a couple more).

I'm totally in for the scaling up of old instances. My only objection is when they remove the innovative or original mechanics out of them to make them fit more and more into the boring Trash->Choreography->Trash->Choreography mold that the devs seems to have been mentally trapped lately.
For example, Great Barrow used to be a maze. Solving a maze is also a gameplay feature that the original version used to have. It made this instance unique in that sense. After the scaling, the maze was basically removed.
Great Barrow and Fornost were quite open. You didn´t have to go to the towers in a specific order to complete the whole instance. You could skip the water wraith in Fornost and go directly up the slope and explore the whole city at your own pace. With the scaling, they have made the whole city totally linear.

If they ever scale Carn Dûm, I bet they will make it linear as hell. While right now you can explore it almost totally free. You can go to the slave pens first, or to the main courtyard. From the slave pens you can go to the sewage system and Helchgam or to Barashal platforms area. From the courtyard you can go to the Morroval area or to the castle, or to the angmarim quarters. It feels like a real place, not a linear themepark.
The same happens with Barad Gularan, Urugarth, Grand Stair, Skûmfil, and before being scaled up, with Fornost and Helegrod.

Please, cannot we have some scaling without making the instance so linear?

[Ferthcott]

I'm wondering about setting minimum lv to 30. Does that mean current questchains and/or nearby landscape are reworked too?

In other words: is there a point in preparing 30-ish characters via clearing out Dol Dinen or it's only going to result in various shifts and resets in their questlogs?

[Lestache]

That's a falacy. Not because something is new it has to be necessarily better.
The old instances from SoA have more attention to detail on them, better planning and design, and often they are more original (funny enough, being older) than the latest ones. They attempted new ideas on those when the game was new and the developers were daring.
Most of the newer instances since Dar Narbugund have repeated the unoriginal pattern of Trash Section -> Choreography fight with boss -> Trash section -> Choreography fight with boss...
(Notable exceptions to this rule being "Inn of the Forsaken", the fumbled "Dungeons of Dol Guldur", and maybe a couple more).

I'm totally in for the scaling up of old instances. My only objection is when they remove the innovative or original mechanics out of them to make them fit more and more into the boring Trash->Choreography->Trash->Choreography mold that the devs seems to have been mentally trapped lately.
For example, Great Barrow used to be a maze. Solving a maze is also a gameplay feature that the original version used to have. It made this instance unique in that sense. After the scaling, the maze was basically removed.
Great Barrow and Fornost were quite open. You didn´t have to go to the towers in a specific order to complete the whole instance. You could skip the water wraith in Fornost and go directly up the slope and explore the whole city at your own pace. With the scaling, they have made the whole city totally linear.

If they ever scale Carn Dûm, I bet they will make it linear as hell. While right now you can explore it almost totally free. You can go to the slave pens first, or to the main courtyard. From the slave pens you can go to the sewage system and Helchgam or to Barashal platforms area. From the courtyard you can go to the Morroval area or to the castle, or to the angmarim quarters. It feels like a real place, not a linear themepark.
The same happens with Barad Gularan, Urugarth, Grand Stair, Skûmfil, and before being scaled up, with Fornost and Helegrod.

Please, cannot we have some scaling without making the instance so linear?

No fallacy in my statement - just a simple declaration that I would prefer developer time be spent making new content rather than remaking old content. I never said (or even implied) that new content would necessarily be better content.

From my perspective as someone who is lucky enough to have done all the instances in the game on-level, revamping and scaling old instances doesn't add much to the game for me, so I'd prefer that brand new instances be developed as well. I'm only one person, and someone who has no power over the decisions that Turbine makes, so I understand that I'm not always going to get what I want. I also understand why other people - especially those who never experienced any of the older instances at their original levels - do like scaled instances.

I was simply replying to the question of "how could anybody be against scaling?"

[wikjif]

I'm wondering about setting minimum lv to 30. Does that mean current questchains and/or nearby landscape are reworked too?

In other words: is there a point in preparing 30-ish characters via clearing out Dol Dinen or it's only going to result in various shifts and resets in their questlogs?

I have a feeling that most of the quests at the end of quest chains that lead to fighting bosses in Fornost have probably been separated from their original quest chains so that they can be bestowed when you go into the instance.