What justifies calling this an "expansion"?

[CGDrakken]

An expansion is when the level cap goes up. An update is when the level cap doesn't go up. That's the only consistent difference.

That used to be the case. The thing to remember is that Turbine no longer sells expansions for the game, they sell quest packs. Turbine needs to change their marketing for RoR and any other additions to the game. What they are selling is not an expansion, it is a quest pack. Why is that you may ask? All players will have access to the level 85 cap, the landmass and war steeds with one skill without buying RoR but no quests in the region with exception of the epic quest line. The Mines of Moria was an expansion that you purchased. What makes MoM different that RoR? For MoM there was a physical block that you couldn't get past unless you had purchased the expansion. I understand Turbine's new ways they are trying to increase profits, but they need to change the terms that they sell under to avoid this confusion and provide better information.

[dragerslayer]

instances are part of expansion preorder cost, there will be solo repeatable instances at luanch and full ones near end of year

[Vandervahn]

^They´re not included in the price. This was a mistake in one of the FAQs and has been denied by both Sapience and Celestrata now.

[Lyzau]

Ah, Moria came wirh 30 days of subscribtion time, when it first came out.

In Europe the 1 free month was NOT included.
Playing one month of Moria in Europe cost you $40 for the expansion + $15 for a month of subscription. Most people played Moria for longer than that, raising the total cost of playing Moria to over $100 and even $200 if you played it for a year.

[SalionOfBrothers]

In Europe the 1 free month was NOT included.
Playing one month of Moria in Europe cost you $40 for the expansion + $15 for a month of subscription. Most people played Moria for longer than that, raising the total cost of playing Moria to over $100 and even $200 if you played it for a year.

Well then I stand corrected, for the EU at least. Hmm, would this then make Codemasters more evil than Turbine in this one case????

[Jeffor]

Turbine's definition of "expansion" is now we have increased the landmass, if you require anything else, ie: quests, instances, etc., please see the LOTRO store for all your needs.

I guess the new stuff they said they are trying in the Massively interview is everything that used to be part of an "expansion" is now being sold piece meal at top dollar. It's really quite a shame, I was hoping that this one would be the return to glory for Turbine after RoI. Guess not.

You won't need the store for instances if you have a sub. I do feel for F2P players if they are being nickeled and dimed but if you have a sub nothing has really changed. SoA launched with no raid and people were angry about that but we ended up having Helegrod and the Rift which was well worth waiting 6 months on.

[CGDrakken]

You won't need the store for instances if you have a sub.

Where do you see that? Because it looks like going foward they are going to be a separate purchase from this post http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...04#post6219804. Given they don't say anything about if you have a sub but given what has been going on lately I don't think it will matter, but we will see in time. Turbine should be planning a FAQ update with new information.

[Celebrawn]

Sorry if someone said this already, but....this again? What WOULD constitute an expansion for some people?

[Lohi]

If we have to pay for it after, then it's clearly not part of the expansion at all.

We're not actually sure yet if we have to pay for instances. Premium players will most likely since they've chosen an ala-carte model. But I suspecting that VIPs won't have to. So far since F2P all new content has been either open to all VIPs or required an expansion, and I haven't seen signs that this is changing. It might happen of course, this is only the second expansion since F2P so Turbine could still be working out how the hybrid model works with expansions.

Why they don't have instances at launch? Same old problem: someone in marketing demands expansions by a due date once a year. MMOs are not allowed to just finish content before releasing it, the players won't let them. We have two groups of players who complain about content: those complaining that they don't release fast enough and those who complain that they release before things are ready.

[Lohi]

Sorry if someone said this already, but....this again? What WOULD constitute an expansion for some people?

The problem is that expansions don't mesh in well with a free-to-play/subscriber hybrid model; especially now that Turbine has essentially made a firm decision that level cap is the same for all players and that all players can enter any zone even wo purchasing expansions.

In one sense this is a great move. It doesn't discriminate against players who didn't buy the expansion and lets them poke around. More flexibility. There really aren't that many players who seriously demand that these freebies stop being free.

So what's left in an expansion in this model is pretty small. Quest packs and instances and maybe other extras if they ever add new classes or races (probably never on races, very unlikely with classes). And with the model this means _everything_ in the expansion will be available with Turbine points.

If someone really doesn't like it being only a quest pack then isn't the solution obvious? Don't buy the expansion and instead wait until release and then purchase it with TP...

It's not necessarily the model I like though. I'd rather see something where VIPs get everything as part of subscription, even expansion content; but purchasing expansion gives you 2 to 6 months access to it before it's opened up to everyone as well as giving you actual quest packs (in case you drop down to premium).

[monteeburns]

So what's left in an expansion in this model is pretty small.

Then it should be priced accordingly. A pretty small expansion in your own words, a pretty high price tag. See the problem there?

[UnlikelyBeing]

Sorry if someone said this already, but....this again? What WOULD constitute an expansion for some people?

I am interpretting your comment as an expansion in terms of what the paid product contains. I will use Mines of Moria as a comparison example as no one doubted its legitimacy as an expansion. I will leave out the Lothlorien content that was introduced later to avoid arguments about whether it was expansion related or free content update since even without including Lothlorien Moria was a good sized expansion in its own right.

Instances & Groups
By the time Moria was released the devs had moved away from landscape questing that required 6 man groups. Three man content had only recently been introduced in limited form prior to the release of MoM and so MoM continued to take us down that path. There was also the introduction of 3-man and solo daily repeatables.

There were a few landscape areas in the Mines with quests based on 3-man groups and I got the impression this went down well at the time. The 6-man instances in Moria were not just level cap, they started from level 54 (Forgotten Treasury) and had a whole load of quests attached to completing them. This was well thought out on devs part as it provided a partial levelling option for those who prefer group play to solo.

Character Development: Legendary Items
The infamous legendary system was introduced with Moria and without buying Moria it was not possible to access it or get a legendary item. Whether we like, love or hate the legendary item system, it has without a doubt had a huge impact on how classes can be played and has become a core part of our character development for both end-game content and normal landscape questing.

Character Development: Introduction of Trait Lines*
Moria also included full class revamps to work in the new trait system. This included introducing the trait lines, opening three new class trait slots and an additional legendary slot, adding new traits to the game (including capstone / legendary), replacing some traits for some classes and giving everyone three capstone traits to work towards (one gained by completing the epic, one from completing their class quest and one from getting kindred with rep faction).

Prior to Moria there were no trait lines, no cap stones and less traits. The introduction of these trait lines and capstones has made a big impact on the versatility and personalisation of how each class can be played.

Major Development: New Classes
I am not suggesting for one moment that new classes are a requirement for an expansion but the introduction of the Rune-Keeper and Warden were a major development in the game which is why I am including it here. Expansion introduce major developments in the game.

Other Stuff
Wow I could go on and on but I won't. Stuff not discussed above (that I can think of now) includes level cap increase, new region, two new class slots, a whole new crafting tier including introduction of the crafting guilds, new epic... no doubt some stuff I can't remember too. All of this was exclusive to those who purchased the expansion.

I would also like to note that at the same time as Moria's release Eregion was released as a free content update for subscribers which included some interesting daily instances and the 3-mans that have since been made classics as well as additional storage space (in game not store) and a complete revamp of the combat mechanics. If I remember correctly there were also changes to inventory introduced at this point to help us with bag space.

Moria wasn't all good and I am not speaking here with rose tinted glasses. Players quickly found ways to exploit the instances, there were complaints that Moria was too DPS-centric, the combat mechanics took a while to get right and there were some pretty major class balance issues. MoM wasn't perfect but what it contained was substantial and there was no way anyone could turn around and say 'but all we are paying for is a quest pack'.

I think the point of an expansion is that it is a large content release, exclusive to those who purchase it, where there is something for everyone. There needs to be lots of diverse quests for those who just like questing and to solo, there needs to be group content (even if there isn't an instance cluster) for those who enjoy grouping on their travels (3-man landscape content or instances), there needs to be crafting development for the crafters etc. In addition there needs to be new innovation introduced to the game whether free or not.

The fact is that Turbine gives so much away for free players that it is struggling for content to justify the price of the expansion. As an expansion ROI was light on quests and characters have to take the same linear route through the region. This really lessened RoI's replayability so I hope RoR will be different in this respect.

The only decent thing for Turbine to do at this stage is to give the quest pack to VIPs for free on the same basis as SoA content (so if VIP drops to Premium they still have to buy). They may call it a big quest pack but this does not justify sticking the label 'expansion' on it just so they can charge VIPs. I think VIPs are still happy to buy actual expansions in addition to their subscriptions - but it needs to be an expansion and not a glorified quest pack. How much 'real money' Turbine can charge for the quest pack is a different issue entirely but not relevant to your question.

*While the trait system was implemented (by necessity) across the game irrespective of whether the player had the Moria expansion I am still including it as part of the paid for product since players could not access the capstone traits or open up more than five trait slots without buying the expansion - so what they had access without purchasing was still very limited.

[Tailborn]

An expansion: the act or process of expanding.

2. The state or quality of being expanded.

3. The amount or degree of expanding.

4. An expanded, dilated, or enlarged portion or form of a thing (In this case, LotRO)

Number 4 would be the best choice to describe a game expansion. An addition to the world, an extension to the franchise in that it extends the story and the world. So YES in simple terms it is an expansion.

-Tails-

[UnlikelyBeing]

Number 4 would be the best choice to describe a game expansion. An addition to the world, an extension to the franchise in that it extends the story and the world. So YES in simple terms it is an expansion.

As far as I am aware the question wasn't asked in 'simple' terms but in 'mmo' terms. By your definition every content update is an expansion.

[Tarmas_Eldar]

4. An expanded, dilated, or enlarged portion or form of a thing (In this case, LotRO)

Number 4 would be the best choice to describe a game expansion. An addition to the world, an extension to the franchise in that it extends the story and the world. So YES in simple terms it is an expansion.

That definition also perfectly describes Great River, or indeed Enedwaith, both of which were new areas with new epic books, yet were free* to subscribers and described as updates rather than expansions.

I stand by my previous comment that the only thing currently differentiating an 'expansion' (which you have to pay for) from an 'update' (free to subscribers) is that in an expansion the level cap goes up. We've had game mechanics changes, new features and new areas - all things previously reserved for expansions - as free updates. All that's left is the level cap.

I also, by the way, concur with the observation above that the paid-expansion approach doesn't really work with the hybrid F2P model we now have. Either non-purchasers are denied access entirely (as was initially the case with Moria and Mirkwood), or expansion purchasers effectively end up buying a quest pack (as is the case with Rohan).


* Yes yes I know it's not 'free' in the sense that we pay subscriptions, but you know what I mean.

[Khafar]

This sums it up really. I haven't been on the forums for the past months, but coming back I am really shocked at how many players who stood by Turbine with ROI are now expressing their own dissatisfaction. This is something Turbine really needs to take note of - they are losing an increasing number of supporters and advocates.

I agree, but they may be putting more emphasis on extracting $$ out of short-term customers since the volume of those is much higher. I think that would be a mistake, but there was quite a lot of last year's development effort that wen't toward stuff they sell in the Store. Yes, subscribers buy stuff in the Store, sometimes above and beyond their stipend. But at least in DDO, only 1 in 5 subscribers spent extra $$ for TP... the vast majority of Store revenue must be coming from Premium players.

Anyway, I paid $50 for the RoI expansion, and my extra $20 basically got me some cloaks and mounts that I don't use a whole lot. This time, I won't be paying anything at all - just using up some of the major piles of TP I have sitting around. Getting the expansion and the 6th bag will cost me maybe 40% of my remaining stockpile of TP, so here at least are some Store items I'll actually get .

Turbine will learn lessons here, based on what players do (not so much what they say). I expect that the next expansion will cost less in $$, and more in TP.

Khafar

[Radhruin_EU]

An expansion: the act or process of expanding.

2. The state or quality of being expanded.

3. The amount or degree of expanding.

4. An expanded, dilated, or enlarged portion or form of a thing (In this case, LotRO)

Number 4 would be the best choice to describe a game expansion. An addition to the world, an extension to the franchise in that it extends the story and the world. So YES in simple terms it is an expansion.

Here are some more simple terms

Overpriced, adj. priced too highly

Limited, adj. confined within limits; lacking breadth

Lacking, adv. having a deficiency or need (of something desirable or necessary)

[t-town-colt]

Here are some more simple terms

Overpriced, adj. priced too highly

Limited, adj. confined within limits; lacking breadth

Lacking, adv. having a deficiency or need (of something desirable or necessary)

Nice + rep

[Lohi]

By the time Moria was released the devs had moved away from landscape questing that required 6 man groups.

This happened after Moria. This didn't really take off until the Lone Lands revamp. The landscape quests for the most part did not vanish unless the zone was revamped, except for some few cases. Dol Dinen is still a fellowship area today.

I can't think of any explicit three man content from before Moria. Parts of Goblin Town were doable in a small fellowship as well as some other areas depending on your skill, but you weren't limited to three people max. The first 3 person instances were in Eregion which was released simultaneously with Moria.

Prior to Moria there were no trait lines, no cap stones and less traits.

We actually had trait lines before Moria except that most players ignored them. Ie, there'd be something called "line bonus" as I recall. The bonuses were very weak and not very well described, so people chose traits based on the traits themselves and not whether it got them a set bonus. So there was a bit more variety with builds than you saw after Moria. After moria running with a 2/2/1 build or even 3/2 would get you labeled a noob.

Also note that much of the stuff you describe was available to all players even if they did not buy the expansion. All players had to use the new trait system. All players would start to lose access to landscape group quests. All players got access to Eregion and three person instances.

With free to play as well as change to the game style though this is all irrelevant. All players get their level cap raised, all players get access to all zones, all players get access to the epic quest line in all zones, all players get legendary items, all players get all new game systems. So what "expansion" means in this new model has changed quite a lot since nothing is gated behind expansions anymore.

Ie, if you want a 6th bag then everyone can by it separately and it is not a part of the expansion. Everyone gets access to mounted combat from what I can tell, it is not gated behind the expansion (because you'll need it in the epic quest line which is not gated). There's nothing left for an expansion to be except a quest/instance pack. Even then $40 is still not a bad price considering the size as described. People are perfectly free to wait a few months after release until the quest pack is on sale if they want.

[Lohi]

That definition also perfectly describes Great River, or indeed Enedwaith, both of which were new areas with new epic books, yet were free* to subscribers and described as updates rather than expansions.

It also applies to Forochel and Evendim and Eregion, both zones added without requiring additional purchases; additionally Angmar and Misty Mountains and Trollshaws were expanded without requiring purchase of an expansion.

I really wish level cap had nothing to do with expansions, because we've had too many level cap increases and it messes up the game world badly (I'm soloing Carn Dum now, three people taking out the Balrog, etc). Some people love the ding when a level but it's not necessary to game play and we shouldn't all have to suffer just so people can keep score.

[Tarmas_Eldar]

I think it is also reasonable to consider the "expansion" to be everything which comes (at no additional cost) between it's launch date and the next expansion.

Thus, I consider the RoI 'expansion' to include Great River and the Orthanc instance cluster, neither of which were present at launch. Similarly the RoR 'expansion' includes everything I get between Sep 5 2012 and the next paid-for expansion around the same time in 2013.

I don't mind paying $70 for that, though I recognise that this is an eye-watering price for many. My personal concern is that the $70 is *not*, in fact, going to cover everything between Sep 5th 2012 and Sep 5 2013. If I am asked to pay once more for additional content - the instance cluster - then I honestly don't know if I'll stay with the game. It's not the cost - the money itself is trivial to me - but the breach of trust would be such as to make me consider whether this was a company I wanted to do business with anymore.

[semjaza]

I think it is also reasonable to consider the "expansion" to be everything which comes (at no additional cost) between it's launch date and the next expansion.

Thus, I consider the RoI 'expansion' to include Great River and the Orthanc instance cluster, neither of which were present at launch. Similarly the RoR 'expansion' includes everything I get between Sep 5 2012 and the next paid-for expansion around the same time in 2013.

I assume you're more referring to the perspective of a VIP player... and in that sense, I would have to hope that access for VIPs to these later-released instances would simply be included. It seems like a similar situation to what was done with those Enedwaith-related "In Their Absence" instances, I suppose.

From the perspective of a premium player, like myself...Well, those areas are arguably associated with that expansion in the sense that they're release timeframe is close, but really that's it.

VIPs got access to Great River and all of that, but it's not technically part of the expansion for anyone. If you stopped being a VIP, you'd still have access to ROI if you bought it and would have to buy Great River separately. Unlike Great River, I got the Orthanc instances for free as a premium player because I bought the full expansion.

On some level I get this as I'm a premium player, but I find it hard to correlate the two areas as part of the same expansion given that.

So really, it's more a question as to whether or not these instances will be free to VIPs... which I guess could be inferred, but no one knows yet. Even though I'm not a VIP, I would hope they were at the very least included for VIP subscribers. It only seems fair.

[Tarmas_Eldar]

I assume you're more referring to the perspective of a VIP player...

I am. In fact, as a lifetimer since 2009. So yes, my perspective is dictated by that. From my point of view I pay once a year - a lump sum for the expansion - and that covers all the content I get for the next year. So $70 doesn't seem so much. I can blow that easily on a night out, never mind a year of gaming. That's why the prospect of paying extra for the instances doesn't dismay me from a financial perspective, it dismays me because it makes me feel as if I'm being taken for a ride.

[Littlebit]

I am. In fact, as a lifetimer since 2009. So yes, my perspective is dictated by that. From my point of view I pay once a year - a lump sum for the expansion - and that covers all the content I get for the next year. So $70 doesn't seem so much. I can blow that easily on a night out, never mind a year of gaming. That's why the prospect of paying extra for the instances doesn't dismay me from a financial perspective, it dismays me because it makes me feel as if I'm being taken for a ride.

Well said! Sums up how I feel.

[semjaza]

I am. In fact, as a lifetimer since 2009. So yes, my perspective is dictated by that. From my point of view I pay once a year - a lump sum for the expansion - and that covers all the content I get for the next year. So $70 doesn't seem so much. I can blow that easily on a night out, never mind a year of gaming. That's why the prospect of paying extra for the instances doesn't dismay me from a financial perspective, it dismays me because it makes me feel as if I'm being taken for a ride.

At the same time, couldn't you argue that $10 to $15 a month you pay for VIP covers that? Unless you're Lifetime in which case I'm just jealous lol