Dev Diary Feedback: The Ettenmoors

[Ferthcott]

3. The 10% mastery bonus stacking buff is going to be too high.

Not sure about that - with stats being bloated like now (and probably even more in RoR) "+10%" is not what it seems to be. It will most likely depend on Turbine fiddling with those values on a global scale.

4. We NEED an area where these stacking buffs do not apply, as they pretty much predetermine who wins a 1v1/2v2 fight so that playstyle will be dramatically impacted. If you want to clear most of the NPCs out of the delving (and just leave the bosses), we could just have that be the solo/duo pvp area by default.

Or a spot near Plains OP, can't get more isolated than that now that even OP is gone and with it - the only reason to go there.


- Hunter Set bonuses have been already described with *just right* amount of facepalm.

- Actually, I don't mind high commendation costs on cosmetic skins - or at least most of them, they are the only thing that should provide incentive to use the Store and the more income from vanity items... actually there is no downside other than some aesthetic values. I'd rather have Turbine earning more money from this kind of product instead of P2W consumables.

[Lestache]

The changes look interesting - it should be fun to see them in practice.

I do wonder where the meta-gaming 1v1ers will go now that Candy Mountain will be a rez circle, though.

Oh, and as the above poster mentioned: please add axes to the Moors legendaries. Each class should have its primary weapon available, and since some classes' primary weapons tend to be racially-dependent, each racial weapon should be available as well (1- and 2-hand swords, 1- and 2-hand axes, and clubs).

Edit: Oh, and please reconsider keeping all the current armor set bonuses. At the very least, find something to replace the stacking Dev bonus on the Burg set - PvP armor should be gimped in PvE-land, not best-in-slot.

[Valanur]

Ok. I dont know how, but when i started to read the devdiary i was happy: no more quests for taking keeps,transforming them in a system to enchance a side, more comms for real pvp and not for pve...Seems very good.

Then i read the rest. And my happyness goes sadness.

Audacity. If i understand well-enough the devdiary, when ror comes to live means every creep gonna have their 7Aud if catched them all (apart from the Aud they could get questing in the 1st days of ror cos there wont be freeps there to stop them. And, if you have a freep with complete ettens armour (7audac) you only can barter every piece for a 10% value of the 85 one with 2 audacity. So that means, a freep can choose between enter ettens with a -10lvls underpowered armour or use the comms he could store as maximum (10000) and 2 pieces of 75 to get...how many? 2 85-pieces? , so 4 Audacity? Are you really serious? So, besides the clear disadvantage that is get new virtues,questlvling till 85, and get some medium (i dont said excellent) equipment, are you telling me we go to have another big one??? This is unfair and sad. I know the Aud in armour now is a problem, because you choose not dealing it to freeps as passive, like creeps (something devs could be done before,when system changed and they didnt), but this is not the manner to fix it.

Second. I really dont know where ppl are watching to talk about creeps understrength. I see everyday wargs appearing in middle of 20 freeps, kill one (ignoring b/p/e of course) and then hips and/or run barely unscathed; I see 12 freeps hunting a wl for 2 min; i see same 12 trying to kill a defiler form ec to tol and finally he go away; i see spiders burrowing in combat, 20 freeps around waiting and spider goes away webbing everybody and with a speed that outmatch everyone. Oh yes, i know some rks, some mincies and maybe some champs are op and that, ok, i see really ops chars between them, ok, low their damage in ettens to balance ettens, but dont say freeps are all op cos they dont. In this point, this is the perspective i have from freep, ofc, but i made myself warg and reav, to farm comms ofc as lots of ppl did since comms, and could saw the skills damage and so in creep side, so i think really, there are no such diffrences, the major example is the tons and tons of wargs created since U7, the lots of wls and the lots of bas.

Another one i dont like is the 2nd age weapons from ettens (ofc i suppose the creeps gonna like it less). I like pvp and enjoy half my time in ettens, but enjoy pve too. With this about 2nd ages for r10 freeps you are unbalancing a lot the pve. Of course ppl who isnt vip is at a great disadvantage here cos they cant go ettens, and between the ones who are vips, how many go to ettens? and between the ones who go ettens, how many have r10? You are mixing a great reward of the pve (the legendary weapons) with the PvM, something that i think you never should do; besides a thing i think you were trying to maintain apart or so you said when comms came live. I would like the idea IF those weapons could be only equipped in ettens (think you have the technology to do that), so not mixing pve with pvp and making things again more confusing.


Finally i miss some changes here. As somebody said the Restriction Clock to change between creep/freep/creep removal was a great great deception and still is. Yes, i see how the ppl change every 5-10 min to go with the winner side, in both, freeps and creeps you are rounded by pals and next time you open the eyes you are alone. Im not the only one who are angry about this, there are lots of posts and entries about, but seriously think about bring the clock back.

Thats my oppinion, Obviously ppl gonna have differences with it but, well

[Belnavar]

If you could, would you provide us a small section that is immune to keep buffs. We have a a weekly 1v1 event and we don't want the keeps to interfere with that. It's a largely attended 1v1 event so it would need to be somewhat sizable, about the size of a keep foot print would be nice.

^This.

If there's not already a little area for 1v1s, you should consider adding one before RoR, or at least shortly thereafter.

-Bel

[Cilladh]

There is nothing among these sets that would get a hunter out of the 2/2/2 arrangement they currently use. Bonuses related to CC are terrible. We don't need -25% cc duration on the Precision Set and we don't need to recover distracting shot or even having ROT costing zero focus... CC is all but dead in the ettenmoors. Audacity reduces duration by 50%, there are brands and insignias, there are stun and root pots, there are creep pots that give 1 minute of immunity if pre-potted. There is the super high resist rate for creeps against physical attacks (CC) and then there is Diminishing Returns. Do not give us set bonuses to enhance or defend against obsolete attacks!

as a blue traited hunter running in precision i would really love to wear the full precision set if i can get enough tactical mitigation from other gear, atm i'm using 2/2/2 too but with the big change to the 3 set bonus i would run 4 precision/2 entrapment (or as said full precision given enough tact mit, the cc reduction has been useful against wargs and spiders when i tried it)

If that is the case, why isn't the Heartseeker power cost on the predator set removed?

it should be, i think it's a typo due to a quick copy-past of previous set bonus, but there is a -30s which should be about the cooldown on hearthseeker that the red line hunters like much more than me ^^


the entrampment set is slightly better than before with the new 5set bonus, but, as u said, relying only on cc given full audacity won't be a good strat. Anyway i think the problem originates from the class itself and a not fully functional traitline on which this set should be based

EDIT:
something that would increase my happiness: 5set predator duration increased to 15-20 sec with a 50% incoming healing debuff as the skill is costly and on a 30 seconds cooldown, it has to provide a substantial debuff, 5set precision increased buff and something against slow

[Odysses]

I like your approach with the RoR expansion. Things are getting a nice shake up and I look forward to playing in the Moors again

[angrolas]

I really do like these changes, but there is one major problem that I see. And I think it could easily be fixed by putting back the freep/creep side lock.
Heres the problem: Since there is going to be new commendation buffs that are included when people capture a keep/outpost/delving of fror, most people will log on to the side, whether it be creep or freep, that has the most commendation buffs.
For example. If creeps have a +50% commendation earning buff, the freeps will just log onto their creep to max out commendation earnings.
Another thing I did not like: Reducing warg's sprint and hips to 3m. As of now, most wargs use these skills to run anytime they drop below half health. I really think the CDs should stay where they are at.

Other than that, I think the changes are going to make the Moors a better place.

[cnrsnl]

Like someone else mentioned above, please don't forget crit and crit multipler numbers for creeps, they are too low compared to freepside. And please don't overlook creepside DPS, you said warg and BA DPS is fine, but hunter/RK/burg DPS is doing 3-4x higher than them already. Defiler and WL healing needs more love also.

[E28TG]

Wow alot of changes, reserving final judgement till I actually see all of them but looks like a mostly good start,particually like the second entrance to keeps.

That said there are afew things that I'd really like to see changed:
1. Flip timers need to come back, even 30min is probably enough so that people doesn't just flip to creep cuz they have all the buffs up and roll over the 2 remaining freeps.

2. Flag mechanic for TR/Lug should stay, have had alot of good fights in those rooms and it would be a shame to get rid of that.

3. PvMP armour either should not be equipable outside of the moors or it should have a mirror PvE set from some instance or w/e with the same bonuses but no audacity and slightly higher stats. I like to pvp and all but I don't like to feel I HAVE to pvp to get the best(or one of the best) set for pve like the 5 piece command set for cappies.

[asearchforreason]

Love almost all of the changes. For the first time, I really wish I had beta access to try these out.

1. I think/hope that the changes to OPs, Keeps, and DG/OR will force people to defend keeps, break up the continuous camping at OC/EC, and generally get people to move around the map and think a bit more strategically. At the same time, by removing commendations from many of the keep taking mechanisms, there is no real incentive to flip or PvE for the sake of PvE. Really you just want to PvE enough that you have sufficient buffs to take on the other side. In fact, I'd like to think they got a couple of ideas from my post last month , although that would be a pretty quick reaction. Certainly the changes to the Delving sound oddly familiar....

2. Doubling of comm gains from PvP, big thumbs up.

3. Reduction in comm costs of essential creep items like skills, also big thumbs up.

4. I'm a bit concerned about the costs of audacity. As another poster pointed out, the freep sets would only bring them to rank 13 audacity as presented in this diary, so let's assume the cap is 13 for both sides. For a new freep to get rank 13 audacity from rank 1, it will cost 35k comms . For a new creep to get rank 13 audacity from rank 1, it will cost (1125*5 + 6000*7) = ~48k comms. That is a huge disparity when you also include the fact that creeps need to pay for their skills and traits with comms while freeps do not. Furthermore, for a current maxed out (rank 7) freep to get to rank 13, it will cost 31.5k comms but for a maxed out creep to get to rank 13, it will cost 35k comms. You should strongly consider a more graduated scale where the total comm costs are equal at the end, but even cheaper at the low ranks for creeps since they are spending most of their comms on skills when they are new. For example, why not the following? r2 = 500, r3 = 750, r4 = 1k, r5 = 1250, r6 = 1500, r7 = 1750, r8-13 = 5300. Now the total costs for new creeps is 38.6k and for maxed creeps is 31.8k, much closer to the freep costs, 35k and 31.5k.

5. Never seen the troll out. I had heard it was disabled...does this mean it will be back come RoR?

6. Glad to hear some buffs are incoming for creeps. Frankly I think reavers and warleaders need these the most. Wargs are already pretty OP and too prevalent as it is. Leave them the same strength if possible. The new reaver skill/trait relentless sounds pretty fun.

7. Sprint and disappear cooldowns should NOT be reduced. There is no reason to enable either side to run from fights more than they do. This is just frustrating for everyone.

All in all it sounds really interesting. I'm sure some mechanics won't work as intended but I'm looking forward to shaking things up and seeing what happens.

[Zaccarius]

I like this. We ask/beg/plead/cry for changes and they are making them.

My question is about the comms I have already spent. Will I be compensated accordingly by refunding the difference? Will I have my audacity adjusted up to compensate, and skills? Or will I be SOL on what I have already spent? Just asking as I am curious if I should keep buying audacity until September or hold off. (and uuuhhh...if It is refunded will I be able to go over the meager 10k limit, because I'm pretty sure the difference will be higher)

[Yelloweyedemon]

Overall it looks like very good changes for zergers and clubbers, and nothing for healers.

THIS^^

While the com. prices for creeps are finally reduced as it should be, and some of the new creep traits and skills are really nice, the system with keeps/op's/dof seems really bad. What about the players that like to play solo/GY camping/roaming the map for some nice 1v1 fights? This is probably the biggest hit to solo players ever... Also this system will involve hell of a lot more pve, to get the damage buffs etc... (sigh.. what we always wanted.. more PVE)

Also several issuess that are nowhere mentioned: Healing is not fixed? so a single RK will be able to out-heal a group of 8+ creeps? Mini in WS will still be godmode? A warden in shield traits will still be immortal when fighting melee creeps?

Freep ranks still mean nothing except new weapon appearance?

I dont wanna be negative to the changes from the beginning, but i have to say most of them dont impress me... I really hope im so wrong, and the whole system is very good! Guess we ll have to wait to see

[imrebroce]

How on earth could the outpost/keep changes be stupid? It makes it completely worthless to zerg the map over and over, since you get ZERO comms out of it. All it does is encourage you to ACTUALLY pvp...The only way to get comms now is killing the enemy.
This is terrible terrible news to people who like to spend hours flipping keeps and switching sides and flipping keeps again. There is no incentive to do that anymore, and thank god.

[Neen_Eldar]

There is no incentive to do that anymore, and thank god.

Until the opposition decides they want a DPS/infamy/renown/commendation bonus and flips them, swiflty followed by a raid leader saying 'Let's take them back' - it will be never ending..

If anything this systems encourages the flipping of Keeps & OPs, the point bonus for doing so should be kept.

[DDW]

Can't. Freaking. Wait. Not going to feel so guilty going VIP anymore xD

[Ferthcott]

Another one i dont like is the 2nd age weapons from ettens (ofc i suppose the creeps gonna like it less). I like pvp and enjoy half my time in ettens, but enjoy pve too. With this about 2nd ages for r10 freeps you are unbalancing a lot the pve.

I disagree, PvE is not exactly driven by competition, it's what people can add on their own. 2nd age weapons are a very nice gift for dedicated PvP players who *do not want* to grind for them in PvE and I am sure they will welcome the opportunity to jump back into Moors without "RoI hiccup". You, however, are still completely free to do so and enjoy new content. Without Instance Cluster we can't even speak about "competition" anyway.

Of course ppl who isnt vip is at a great disadvantage here cos they cant go ettens, and between the ones who are vips, how many go to ettens? and between the ones who go ettens, how many have r10?

Sounds just right to me. Incentive to become VIP? Check. Incentive to rank as a freep? Check (ask freeps how many of those they have now).

I would like the idea IF those weapons could be only equipped in ettens (think you have the technology to do that), so not mixing pve with pvp and making things again more confusing.

Eh, 2nd age is still 2nd age - something that is possible to acquire via many ways - doesn't really matter if small group of people will get them earlier; what are they going to imbalance with them - 85lv skirmishes? It's PvMP armour bonuses that were causing bad smell.


Hmm you actually gave me some new reasons to like this surprising Diary

[Jaggahl]

As part of these changes Distraction has been disabled in the Moors.

If you're interested in testing out and seeing the changes in action and you are in beta, everything in this diary is live on Bullroarer.

Great!
One or two question more... Have Warden class been disabled in the Moors? Will the cmm cap go out?

[mphunk]

For what it is worth, these changes will most likely earn a ROR purchase from me.

It would be nice to see the cooldown return, in any form.

Also, on Slode we have had issues with multiboxers "spying" thus giving one side a complete advantage in OOC chatter. With these proposed new changes, I can see some players exploiting this even more. Would love to see some form of punishment-like- Gandalf spawning and whipping the culprit in front of all to see. (joke)

[Cilladh]

Another thing I did not like: Reducing warg's sprint and hips to 3m. As of now, most wargs use these skills to run anytime they drop below half health. I really think the CDs should stay where they are at.

./signed
sprint+disappear combo and camping cds happens already too often now, and with the increased warg population we had since last update this would be dramatic

And please don't overlook creepside DPS, you said warg and BA DPS is fine, but hunter/RK/burg DPS is doing 3-4x higher than them already. Defiler and WL healing needs more love also.

speaking from a hunter perspective our damage is only around 2x higher than warg or ba, my penetrating shot crits for around 1600 while a warg claws crits for 800, and ba's punctured target for similar numbers (i run 37.5% tact mit and full audacity which should grant me higher mits than commonly found bas and shadow wargs)
of course on a ideal parse against a training dummy hunter dps can reach a better ratio vs creeps but this doesn't count all the problems we have in a real fight (bas with skirmisher stance and wargs don't face the same probs)


if u want to nerf a bit rks dps and burgs i would be fine with that, but this might be out of topic ^^

[asearchforreason]

What about the players that like to play solo/GY camping/roaming the map for some nice 1v1 fights? This is probably the biggest hit to solo players ever

Actually these changes should be good for players like you as well. On my server at least, fights devolve into an OC/EC camp until the strong side logs and then a huge zerg from the formerly weak side eventually flips the map and begins camping the other side again. It's really not conducive to solo play and consists mostly of standing around at OC/EC and ganking people coming from the rez.

Part of the idea behind making the keeps, OPs, etc worth something is to move the fighting around the map. If the fighting is moved around the map as a soloer/roamer you should be somewhat more likely to come across an enemy traveling from one place to another alone instead of hiding amongst their NPCs (or camping you at yours), or perhaps find a group of 3 trying to ninja an outpost where you can intervene and have a chance to kill a couple of them.

[Koroeth]

Interesting changes, thats true. But still: freeps get their skills for silver/gold and creeps for commendations. Pardon me but i don´t see how thats fair. In general creeps have to gather more commendations than freeps to get thier skills/traits/corruptions. Unless i missed something...
I´ve said this in one post already: leave the commendations for the audacity, better potions, tracking talismans etc. and give the rest of the stuff for silver for both sides.

[avengingbananaslug]

Pve in terms of flipping keeps might up, while PvE in terms of everything else will be reduced. Thats an overall win imo.

[CashCow]

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

1. Still no crit-multi for creeps.
2. No commendation scale for skins, lower level skills, though 50% more gain from kills is nice. Increase comm. cap?
3. Perhaps new animations for creep attacks?
4. I see a lot of PvE encouragement through keeps and outposts to gain best advantage. It can be A LOT of fun, as long as you have intelligent players on both sides. It might actually DEMORALIZE the opponent when there are 2+ raids vs a bunch of noobs + constant flipping to winning side.
5. A LOT OF WARGS to be present with new cooldowns on 3min sprint/disappear.
6. I like the class changes for creeps, but still nothing for higher ranks 10-15? Older players will get bored fast.
7. Just going to wait and see how these changes play out, words are words for now.

[DrHouse-EU]

If one side owns all the keeps/OP's/Relic then whats left of the other side is going to have a real hard time.

I would suggest it work in a different way. For example, owning a keep = +=20% comms and grants +4% mits to the other side.

Oh yes, if trolls are back to help with balance, please for the love of god make them immune to power drain.

[asearchforreason]

Also, on Slode we have had issues with multiboxers "spying" thus giving one side a complete advantage in OOC chatter. With these proposed new changes, I can see some players exploiting this even more. Would love to see some form of punishment-like- Gandalf spawning and whipping the culprit in front of all to see. (joke)

Yes we have the same issue on DD. However, I look at it as an opportunity to spread misinformation. For example, you might x up for AE OP in OOC and then once the group is formed, actually head to River OP. While I don't condone spying, it is a natural part of any competition and is not going to go away in LOTRO so use it to your advantage (and I don't mean by also spying yourself, I mean by confusing the spies).