JWBarry's comment, from Massively article

[Haunt123]

You have to try very hard to take umbrage from that quote ...

Let me try ...

JWBarry insulted players who don't play 10 hours a day, calling them 'casual' !!

Buuuuuuurn !!!

Ugh. Alright, I guess it was just me who got offended by that statement (NOT paragraph, just the bolded statement). I just felt the tone was rather negative. But okay, that's just me.

[Edelith]

This same quote from the article was being already discussed on a different thread.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ughts-opinions

[RJFerret]

Why finding insult I think is the real question?

Is someone ashamed they like to get improved gear and have successes, IE, "wins"?

I'm a bit baffled at that being perceived as insulting. *shrugs

I do find it funny that they have created content that casual once-a-week players can't effectively get rewarded for, but only hardcore daily grinders. Meanwhile it's useless to raiders, as they already have comparable gear.

It reminds me of the daily Galtrev quests to collect wood, which I did only one one character, it was boring and repetitive.

I imagine the real purpose is to try to get more casual players (since they keep touting that term) to increase their play time. Meanwhile, this "casual raider" will be looking forward to new group instances.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

[Valerian_Moonfire]

For those people seeing no insult in the quote: You are right partly, no direct insult is stated. You have to look carefully at the tone of the statement. I don't know about you, but I can clearly see the insult in the way there are quotation marks around win ("win" the game"), for example.

I am one of those that does not like the way OD and ToO were designed by JWBarry and the rest of the instance team. However I too fail to see any insult at all.

[Mysterion]

Ultimately isn't the largest insult from JWBarry that instances aren't available with the expansion. Skraids and the scalable instances as end game for several months seems way more insulting than anything I read in the article. This game is going to be boring real quick after I hit 85, finish the challenge deeds for ToO and then start the daily grinding for Tokenville (or whatever the place is called).

[Ceremony]

I'm sorry, but where exactly did he insult raiders?

That was what I was thinking about.

[Solien]

Sorry, but I've reread it several times and I don't see it.

Ayr, I think the (implied) insult is that "raiders" don't care about anything other than Tier 2 Challenge raids, teal and orange loot, and having the biggest DPS parses.

That's certainly true for some people in the game. I've known several people who feel that all of the following are a complete waste of time: leveling, lore, festivals, role-playing, solo quests, and alternate gear paths; that's all I can think of off the top of my head, but I think you get my point. I think the OP's point is that either Jdub's words were misrepresented or he really did make that claim (the wording of the quoted text makes me think it's the former), and that some people who raid but don't fall into this group might be insulted.

It seems we always have this discussion just before a new expansion comes out - people want to get into the whole "raider vs. casual" debate in the hopes that the next expansion will "fix the problems". IMO, the easiest way to "fix the problem" is to look in the mirror and ask oneself: have I labeled myself as a "raider" or a "soloer" or a "roleplayer" (or any other group one might determine)? It seems the minute we label ourselves, we become part of an "us" and we naturally look for a "them" to stand in opposition against.

It's also important to be aware that most people who identify with a particular play style follow a "live and let live" philosophy. They don't put others down, don't post angrily on the forums, and don't expect the devs to center the game on their wishes. Unfortunately, what we see are the minority of vocal people who do all of the above. To me, those are the people who most need to look in the mirror and, basically, confront their own insecurities.

[myfreezr2]

To all the people saying raiders are a minority: if they're such a minority, why is endgame being developed for them at all? Clearly, if they're such a small proportion of the playerbase, and instances are such wasted amounts of money and dev time, no one could expect Turbine to give them anything, could they?

And if so, why did Turbine do a complete 180 after saying that the instances would not be included with ROR? If raiders are such a (vocal) minority, Turbine would have nothing to lose by simply keeping the ROR packages as they were originally. So why did they change it?

[Kongas]

To all the people saying raiders are a minority: if they're such a minority, why is endgame being developed for them at all? Clearly, if they're such a small proportion of the playerbase, and instances are such wasted amounts of money and dev time, no one could expect Turbine to give them anything, could they?

And if so, why did Turbine do a complete 180 after saying that the instances would not be included with ROR? If raiders are such a (vocal) minority, Turbine would have nothing to lose by simply keeping the ROR packages as they were originally. So why did they change it?

You do know that this is about 99 flavours of false logic that only works with your own unstated assumptions embedded in your questions, right?

Being a minority in no way implies there is not a commercial gain in developing content.
Non-raider gameplay benefits from raid content in terms of items in the AH, high level capable kin members etc etc.
Non-raiders do raid.
Some Non-raiders aspire to raid.
Vocal minorities can generate negative publicity that degrades the commercial value of the IP etc etc.

A moment's thought can generate a host of reasons.

Just because something does not make sense to you does not mean it does not make sense. It means you do not have all the facts Turbine do. Or you do not share the values that drive their development. Or you do not know their long term strategy. You have not the facts or the context to make any kind of judgement of what Turbine or WB thought they might 'lose'. So the answer to your questiona are:

'Because they know more about their business than you do and these are the decisions they made.'

Hard core raiders are a minority. They are the tip of the gamer pyramid. And now - to justify the huge cost of this expansion to the broader play base they are making rewards normally gated behind T2 raids available to a wider playstyle range. And quite right too. Our money being as good as any we all should have a way of working hard towards rewards. Otherwise, as turbine realise, we'll stop paying large amounts for an expansion and go somewhere else.

Besides - when Turbine do 180 turns it's usually because not making the turn will damage their commercial interests. They turn when enough people scream and shout that they start worrying about the game image.

Turbine are constantly testing the boundaries of how little they can deliver for as large a price as they can get. And part of that process is rowing back whne they've got caught out going too far.

[Tarmas_Eldar]

Worth remembering that the Hytbold solo-endgame is not a replacement for an Instance/Raid cluster, it's additional. The Instance cluster will follow in a subsequent update, just as it did with RoI. I don't see evidence of Turbine turning away from providing for the raid/instance running portion of players, just that they are adding something comparable for players who don't run instances.

On that comparability point, by the way, be prepared for the howls of indignation when players looking forward to the "casual friendly" Hytbold discover that acquisition of the lovely new armour set requires running 5 quests, every day, for SEVEN WEEKS.

[myfreezr2]

--snip--

Being a minority in no way implies there is not a commercial gain in developing content.

--/snip--

That was kind of my point, actually. Simply saying that raiders are a minority is a pretty broad statement to make. It could be as small as 5%, for all I know (and you too). It could also be as high as 20, 30, even 40% and still be a minority.

[Southpa]

It's not offensive so much as divisive IMO. There already tends to be a wedge between those who hold tightly to their preferred "side" of the coin. JWB simply gave it a few whacks with a mallet.

There's really no need to state the obvious, yet he felt the need to do so. Why not just describe the Hytbold experience for what it is rather than basically say, "Raiders, you are the minority and this expac and its end-game content are not for you."

[Omen_Kaizer]

While reading the aside "(that sure sounds familiar)" it's easy to imagine a rolling of eyes from the writer. Which is worth a sneer right back. That jumped out at me more than the stupid "win" generalization.

Whoever said it, distilling the motivation of the hardcore down to " 'win' the game" isn't trying too hard to win friends (nor is it appreciated by me), but I've certainly read worse.

EDIT: Seems to me like it's about equivalent whenever I say "horsie" or "faceroll" in regards to the xpac. Guess I oughta cut back on that for fairness's sake.

[Laerien]

I don't see any insults to the raiding community in general.

"He emphasized that the people who play hardcore in instances and raids are not the majority of LotRO players"

"Joe pointed to those players who simply want to be in Middle-earth, not necessarily grind out uber gear and "win" the game (that sure sounds familiar)."

He is pointing to such type of players that cannot distinguish between an elf and a pokemon and are here (or in other mmos) just to win the game. Not all people who do group content are like that, most play LotRO because the story and because is Middle Earth. At least that is my perception and what I've read from most forum users in other threads.

Devs know this and even if some part of these "hardcore players" are money spenders (in p2w games they spend huge amounts of cash), they already noticed that the majority of the player base is not willing to continue paying for an inferior endgame.

The new challenge for devs then is to make everyone "win" the game, and the market is already solving this issue providing new mmorpgs and expansions like RoR that point towards to an endgame that is casual and solo friendly. (casual and solo are not the same but they are related).

Would the new instance cluster break this logic? I have no idea, but devs must know that it wont be easy to take away the new winning status from soloers and casuals.

[Chris91]

"Raiders, you are the minority and this expac and its end-game content are not for you."

Which is completly untrue..

~80% of the people I see in Galtrev, Stangard, glff, in the Moors or in various instances are running ToO T1, even the Draigoch Set has gotten rare, almost everybody uses ToO Set

I literally see noone in quest equip or 3rd ages, most people use 2nd ages even as class items

[vertigo07]

Though I see no insult towards raiders in his comments, I would have to say that in my experience a large percentage of hardcore raids are in fact here to get the best gear possible and one they've done that they hardly play. Moving on to other games with end game content to crack. I don't see that as an insult to those raiders who do have a strong connection to the lore etc, but from what i have witnessed, a lot of people who do raids do it for the activity of raiding itself. It is my opinion that many people would be perfectly happy raiding in a completely lore breaking raid to get their gear and do the content that's challenging.

[Jeffor]

I love raiding myself but I also know that I am not the only person that plays LOTRO in the world. I am not one bit insulted as a raider though.

[musicman2000]

I see a bit where the OP is coming from -- it's not that the raiders were *insulted* per say it's just the separation of playstyles.

*raiders are about getting uber gear and *winning* the game*

wait..what?

Lots of us are about story -- ALL of us solo, craft, quest. Many raiders enjoy rping as well. Many raiders enjoy the in game music system immensely. Raiding is a part of the game we enjoy. But to make such an all inclusive statement isn't necessarily *insulting* per say but it is at best inaccurate -- at worst divisive and actually inflammatory since these sorts of discussions get very heated.

Also one of the posters mentioned that the gear grind and raiding structure in games has always failed -- yet I'm curious what games they mean. Take games that have lasted longer than 10 years -- Everquest one still launched expansions through 2011 after having been released in 1999. Now I don't know where the game went after I left, but gear grind and grouping and raiding were a HUGE part of that game. World of Warcraft -- arguably the most successful MMO in history still around -- released in the earlier part of last decade -- not sure if it's 8, 9 or 10 years old at this point -- but it's entire structure is gear grind and instance grinding.

I definitely agree there has to be more to character progression than gear grind and stat boosts, but to say it's not been a successful game model is totally inaccurate.

The sad thing is these kinds of statements -- misrepresented, misquoted, or intentional -- inflame threads like this one where the community goes back and forth about who's playstyle is *better* or more *profitable* or who deserves more *rewards* because they have the playstyle of the *majority*. It's all ridiculous and takes away from the fact that this game is about to drop an expansion many of us (myself included) are very very excited about. With or without traditional end game instances -- I can't wait to hit level 85, and journey through the story that takes us in to Rohan - mounted combat, etc.

Let's not let a silly statement divide the community that supports this game. But I do see again where the OP is coming from -- raiders, especially in LOTRO -- are not all about the gear grind and *winning* the game as a rule. Sure you'll find some *epeeners* but really does that define an entire segment of the community? Hardly.

[Southpa]

Take RoI for example - RoR's predecessor.

It offered no instance cluster at launch, yet I can't recall a quote from a dev either justifying this or willfully placing the LotRO populace into mutually exclusive niches.

As Tarmas already said, the trend toward making the overwhelming majority of the game solo-friendly is impossible to ignore. There just wasn't any need to state the obvious. It does nothing to bring those with differential play-style preferences together. It brings "us and them" to light, if anything. To not even insinuate that "raider-types" can also find pleasure in this new style of endgame. That wasn't even suggested.

But to be fair, the writer is a self-admitted "casual player", so the evident bias should be taken into account. Although she does make a fairly lofty assumption that raiders are out to "win" the game. Winning an MMO... gosh, that never occurred to me. I think she's a bit ignorant - and I don't mean that as an insult. She just lacks knowledge. There also may be a bit of "complex" tarnishing her choices of words. The overall feel of the article is a titch "gloaty"...

[Anavalar]

As I said in that other thread you started Haunt- there are no quotes from Joe Barry as such. There is a paraphrase with the author's emphasis/interpretation ('you raider types') implying a division that doesn't exist for most players. People play many styles. Some on the same day.

^ This

Players with a long term interest in the game are the reason why this game is still here after all these years. Most vets I talk to or hang out with do some raiding, small grouping, solo quests, role play and social activity. PvMP and music are often on that option list as well.

If you look at the priorities of most Kins listed on the 1 to 5 scale all the above usually are 2 or more not zero. Even those who have spoken strongly in this thread for one side or another often start with "I'm not really a hard core raider/soloer but..."

To me the war bands are a whole new invitation to soloers to try group play. If this is met with mass approval then I bet 12 and 24 player group mounted activity isn't far away. The eventual Pelennor Fields expansion suggests possibilities for new standards in group play.

[Sapience]

I think there is a reason why it is called 'taking offense'. We can choose to find offense in anything, even if none is offered or intended. I think there is some of that going on here.

I also think the age old (and LOTRO has never been immune to this) debate of 'hard core' vs 'casual' can go under many many names, but always ends up being the same discussion. Ultimately the facts are that raiders have always been a portion of our playerbase and will continue to be. Casual players and PvMP players also make up out player base.

While we have always created opportunities for those with a mind to raid to do so, and recieve appropriate rewards, we've rarely given those who aren't in that group the opportunity to acquire similar rewards through a game play menchanic that was challenging to those who opted not to participate in that kind of content. This time, we are. We're still commited to releasing instances post Rohan, and we've already made significant changes to the Ettenmoors for launch.

If anything, Rohan is the first expansion that will ultimately offer some type of content for all players, regardless of how they choose to play. Whatever your stance of "raider vs non-raider" or "casual vs hardcore" I think we can all agree that more options for everyone is always a positive thing.

[nolins12]

I think there is a reason why it is called 'taking offense'. We can choose to find offense in anything, even if none is offered or intended. I think there is some of that going on here.

I also think the age old (and LOTRO has never been immune to this) debate of 'hard core' vs 'casual' can go under many many names, but always ends up being the same discussion. Ultimately the facts are that raiders have always been a portion of our playerbase and will continue to be. Casual players and PvMP players also make up out player base.

While we have always created opportunities for those with a mind to raid to do so, and recieve appropriate rewards, we've rarely given those who aren't in that group the opportunity to acquire similar rewards through a game play menchanic that was challenging to those who opted not to participate in that kind of content. This time, we are. We're still commited to releasing instances post Rohan, and we've already made significant changes to the Ettenmoors for launch.

If anything, Rohan is the first expansion that will ultimately offer some type of content for all players, regardless of how they choose to play. Whatever your stance of "raider vs non-raider" or "casual vs hardcore" I think we can all agree that more options for everyone is always a positive thing.

Except that there will NOT be any raiding content with the expansion....all we have is a shady promise that there will be "something later on." We have absolutely no information about it, which unfortunately leads us to believe that when we do get the cluster we will be very underwhelmed.

[Solien]

While we have always created opportunities for those with a mind to raid to do so, and recieve appropriate rewards, we've rarely given those who aren't in that group the opportunity to acquire similar rewards through a game play mechanic that was challenging to those who opted not to participate in that kind of content. This time, we are.

Great decision - reminds me of SoA days when you could have viable and equivalent endgame gear through crafting, fellowship instance play, or raid play. There will, of course, be those who are upset by this decision, since they are invested in a clearly-delineated social ladder of haves and have-nots. They will accuse you of "dumbing down" the game and tell you you're invalidating all of their "hard work". Don't buy it - you guys are doing the right thing.

EDIT: But on the flip side, I'm with my kinmate above me in regards to the promised raid - as someone who enjoys raiding, my hope is that the cluster released later this year is solid. Personally, a 7 week gear grind and war steed play just doesn't appeal to me as endgame, so I'm putting some faith in the instance cluster.

[musicman2000]

Except that there will NOT be any raiding content with the expansion....all we have is a shady promise that there will be "something later on." We have absolutely no information about it, which unfortunately leads us to believe that when we do get the cluster we will be very underwhelmed.

This is emphatically NOT true. This very statement is quoted in the OP's original quote:

*ll you raider types will have your day, however -- just not today. Joe promised, "A classic MMO endgame is coming, but that's not now."*

A -- classic MMO endgame is coming. It's also been stated numerous times that an instance cluster -- terminology that has existed for years now in LOTRO -- is coming with update 9. The first update after Rohan's release. It's clear that they are following RoI"s release model.

The only thing unclear is how much TP the instance cluster will cost those who choose to buy the expansion via TP instead of traditional means. Not to open up a can of worms -- THAT's the debate. Not whether or not there will be any raiding content. We are in exactly the same boat we were going in to RoI's release.

[TaSwavo4God]

I literally see noone in quest equip or 3rd ages, most people use 2nd ages even as class items

I think you'll find EVERY person who does the Epic quests gets a Worn Symbol.
In addition they can be bought for skirmish Marks.
In addition they are not bound to account or character and most people are in kinships where some people do lots of instances that drop such items (as far as I'm aware it's not a "raid only" drop).

So the fact that most (and I doubt you on that as I'd say most have one or none) people use second age items is completely unconnected to anything related to raids.

I know plenty of people that do raids like draigoch as often as they can
I'd say there is a much higher percentage of "looking to get game-win items" in that group - but for a clear reason - it's an effect, not a cause. An example...
The best cloaks come from Draigoch.
To have the best cloak you are not likely to get the items given to you... they're not so common after all.
So people do it who want the cloak.
People can survive WITHOUT the cloak (there are plenty of folks who do all raids and instances without it - including the Draigoch raid). But people do it to get the best.

Will the best NOW be the best in 1 month's time? close at least.
Will it be the best in a year's time? probably not.

Things move on and those at the end-game (which is ever moving) will always spend their time going for the NEW BEST wearing their CURRENT BEST.
It's the way of MMO games after all...