Elves.

[Lugg24]

I'm planing on soon creating an Elf to rp with. I've read many posts about how to rp an Elf and I see that it could be difficult at some times (e.g: They're the oldest race in Middle Earth, tend to keep to themselves, most of the time they don't let their emotions show...) So to get my rp right I want to research on it first.

I've found the following site quite helpful:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...42#post6448142

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Elves

http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Elves (this one is very basic but still helped :P)

So what I ask you fellow RPers is if you have any information or any other sources you might recommend to please let me know. Also tips and hints are greatly appreciated

Finally (this is the most important point) I was thinking of making him a Rune-Keeper... I've read many posts that this class contradicts the lore and is not appropriate in Middle Earth... I don't see why not lol I would appreciate some feedback and recommendations on how to rp that class

Thank you

[Jewl_of_the_lake]

It also depends on what type of elf you want to play. There is a big difference in rping a Silvan or Sindar then a Noldor. As for the RK i think the only problem with that class is the need of rune stones. Elves know how to evoke power into their words.

[Ahuhan]

I hope you have fun! I have one elf I RP, and it's really pretty cool pretending to be an old Eldar!

As for the RK class, you've probly seen some flame wars about it, heh. The thing is that in Tolkien, "magic" per se is not what it is in most fantasy! There's no mana, no mystic chaotic energies to harness...rather, "magic" in Tolkien seems nothing more than a deep understanding of the true nature of things. Galadriel would rather not call her craft magic, since it's just a deeper understanding of the true nature of the world. Even her "magic" mirror, her phial, her seemingly intelligent rope, all are the result of craftsmanship that made use of understanding of the deeper nature of things. Even the Rings of Power seem to have been crafted by some understanding of the nature of living beings and their latent power; they don't use "magic" in the classic sense. Gandalf creates a jet of green fire out of his staff, but explains that he "must have something to work on. I cannot burn snow." Saruman's voice seems to have power over the very mind and heart, the Mouth of Sauron is referred to as a great sorcerer who had become "enamored of evil knowledge," and the Witch-king was called the *witch*-king, a sorcerer of terrible power. So ya, there is "magic" in Tolkien, a ton of it, but not in the classic mystic mana-based form.

And yet, neither are RKs mana-users. In their class description, in their quests, and in the descriptions of all their skills they follow this pattern of "a deep understanding of the true nature of things." Like the runes carved into Anduril or the Black Speech incantation on the One Ring, and like the powerful language of Feanor, and the runes that served to open the Doors of Durin outside Moria, words in Tolkien can carry great power *if* they are used with an understanding of the true nature of the world. The great battering ram Grond carried on it "spells of ruin," and when it attacked the gates, the Witch-king "rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone."

When Merry and Pippin meet Treebeard, Merry asks, "What's your real name?" Treebeard takes Merry's meaning literally, replying, "Hoo! Now that would be telling! Not so hasty!...You should not go telling just anybody. You'll be letting out your own right names if you're not careful...Hm, but you are a hasty folk, I see. I am honoured by your confidence; but you should not be too free all at once...For I am not going to tell you my name, not yet at any rate...Real names tell you the story of the things they belong to." Treebeard is talking about Entish, another ancient language that apparently still has great yet hidden power.

So that's one perspective on the lore of Rune-keepers. They generate lightning and fire and frost by the power of true names and words, not by mystic mana. It's all brought about by the RK's understanding of the true nature of storm and frost and fire, and foretellings and powerful allusions. It's words, the power of words. That sounds like pure Tolkien to me, when words can induce real lightning! So play it how you want, and see what the class quests have to say about how RKs do their "magic." It sounds like a lot of fun to RP an ancient elf who's schooled in the power of runes!

[Lugg24]

Thank you both!

Waw Ahuhan I think I'll have to copy and paste your post in all the threads about the Rune Keeper being lore appropriate or not lol!

It helped me a lot and yes I do think I will go forth with the Rune Keeper

And Jewl, I'll probably go with role playing a Noldor Elf. I understand that they are one of the oldest clan of elves to still live in Middle Earth... I'm also choosing them because "The most distinctive thing about Noldorin culture was their fondness for the crafts. This ranged from jewelry to embroidery to the craft of language" (http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Noldor) and therefore I have a set cultural background to be into the study of real names and words.
But I still dont quite cease how i will rp one... Being very old, will I have to be very knowledgeable? must I know the Quenya language? What would I be doing in Middle Earth if most of the Noldor people have gone west already?

Once again, any tips would be greatly appreciated

[Nosdracir]

What would I be doing in Middle Earth if most of the Noldor people have gone west already?

I'm not a roleplayer, but a bit of a Tolkien buff...

Vengeance! Celebrimbor, who crafted the three Elven rings, was a grandson of Feanor. He was captured and tortured by Sauron in an attempt to find the locations/owners of the three. The Noldorim originally returned to Middle Earth from Valinor as a result of Morgoth stealing the Silmarils, so it's perfectly plausible for a Noldor elf to want to avenge the death of Celebrimbor by remaining in Middle Earth and opposing Sauron.

You could be driven to aid in the defeat of Sauron in order to avenge the death of Celebrimbor.

[maxjenius]

Finally (this is the most important point) I was thinking of making him a Rune-Keeper... I've read many posts that this class contradicts the lore and is not appropriate in Middle Earth... I don't see why not lol I would appreciate some feedback and recommendations on how to rp that class

Class is entirely an OOC phenomenon, so don't let anyone get in your face about playing a Rune-keeper.

[fusei]

If you want to find motivation for a Noldorin Elf to remain in Middle Earth you can for one try to explore the motivation of other Elves of Noldorin decent in LotR like Galadriel who was born in Valinor and came with the Noldorin host to Beleriand, Elrond who was born near the end of the First Age, Glorfindel who fell in the battle of Gondolin and returned from Valinor or Gildor.
A second approach would be picking one or more themes in the history of the Noldor that may have influenced your character like for the First Age the battle against Morgoth and the destruction of Beleriand, the disunion of the Elves (most drastically symbolized by the kinslayings) or their friendship with the Edain, for the Second Age the deception of the smiths of Ergeion by Sauron and the forging of the Rings, the destruction of Eregion and the death of Celebrimbor, the deception of the Numenorian by Sauron, their estragement with the Elves and the Fall of Numenor or the Last Alliance and the fall of Gil-Galad, for the Third Age the best you get is probably the rise and defeat of Angmar and threat of Dol Guldur and Barad Dur.

[Daeross]

---And Jewl, I'll probably go with role playing a Noldor Elf. I understand that they are one of the oldest clan of elves to still live in Middle Earth... I'm also choosing them because "The most distinctive thing about Noldorin culture was their fondness for the crafts. This ranged from jewelry to embroidery to the craft of language" (http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Noldor) and therefore I have a set cultural background to be into the study of real names and words.
But I still dont quite cease how i will rp one... Being very old, will I have to be very knowledgeable? must I know the Quenya language?---

Just throwing my 2 coppers in... And probably going off tangent.

A comment on terms: Noldor is plural, Noldo singular, Noldorin adjective. Same goes for Sindar/Sinda/Sindarin, etc...
I don't see a single reason why you couldn't be half-Noldo, half-other Elven bloodline, and still identify as a Noldo. All of the children of Indis the Vanya were counted among Noldor, after all, and so were their children. Granted, their father/grandfather was the First High King of Noldor...

If you choose to play as an old elf...we need to think about what would be considered an old elf. The eldest named are apparently Cirdan and Galadriel, Celeborn. Even Arwen is during the War of the Ring already creeping closer to being 2800 years old. If you'd been born around the time the establishment of the Noldorin settlement in Eregion (Ost-in-Edhil in canon, Mirobel in-game), you'd be around 5700 years old during the War of the Ring.

Your age together with the level of your education would dictate whether you know Quenya or not. Based on what you've said, I'd definitely go with yes. Just be aware that according to Tolkien*, in Third Age elves didn't converse in Quenya.

One idea might be that you've remained safe and sound since the chaos in Eregion or even before (left when Galadriel and Celeborn did?), and only now are venturing out. That you've read about the things in the world, or heard of them, but have yet to experience them yourself. Book-learned, as it was.

Or maybe you want to go out in blaze of glory, fighting the Shadow to the bitter end? The Noldor were, after all, known as prideful, even at their best.

* Appendices, 'Of the Elves':
"(Qyenya) was no longer a birth-tongue, but had become, as it were, an 'Elven-Latin', still used for ceremony, and for high matters of lore and song, by the (Exiles)
----
The Exiles, dwelling among the more numerous Grey-elves, had adopted the Sindarin for daily use---"

[Radhruin_EU]

And yet, neither are RKs mana-users.

That's not the problem. The real problem is all the elemental-styled nonsense, and running around with no real weapon to defend themselves (and no, a rock doesn't count). Turbine didn't make all the skill descriptions fit with how it supposedly works, either, and as a result it's a mess lore-wise. In truth, it's something Turbine simply invented to keep mage fans happy.

In their class description, in their quests, and in the descriptions of all their skills they follow this pattern of "a deep understanding of the true nature of things." Like the runes carved into Anduril or the Black Speech incantation on the One Ring, and like the powerful language of Feanor, and the runes that served to open the Doors of Durin outside Moria, words in Tolkien can carry great power *if* they are used with an understanding of the true nature of the world. The great battering ram Grond carried on it "spells of ruin," and when it attacked the gates, the Witch-king "rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone."

There were no runes on the Doors of Durin; the Tengwar wasn't even runic. Pretending that the writing on the doors is what opens them is just something people have made up. (If there actually were runes on it somewhere out of sight then maybe, just maybe, they might have been what Narvi empowered to do the door-opening bit but runes weren't the be-all and end-all).

When Merry and Pippin meet Treebeard, Merry asks, "What's your real name?" Treebeard takes Merry's meaning literally, replying, "Hoo! Now that would be telling! Not so hasty!...You should not go telling just anybody. You'll be letting out your own right names if you're not careful...Hm, but you are a hasty folk, I see. I am honoured by your confidence; but you should not be too free all at once...For I am not going to tell you my name, not yet at any rate...Real names tell you the story of the things they belong to." Treebeard is talking about Entish, another ancient language that apparently still has great yet hidden power.

Total non sequitur. Treebeard is simply telling them that his real name would reveal more about him than he would wish to share with strangers (as the hobbits were at that point). Note the 'not yet at any rate', he isn't telling them he won't ever tell them, he's saying it's too soon.

So that's one perspective on the lore of Rune-keepers. They generate lightning and fire and frost by the power of true names and words, not by mystic mana. It's all brought about by the RK's understanding of the true nature of storm and frost and fire, and foretellings and powerful allusions. It's words, the power of words. That sounds like pure Tolkien to me, when words can induce real lightning! So play it how you want, and see what the class quests have to say about how RKs do their "magic." It sounds like a lot of fun to RP an ancient elf who's schooled in the power of runes!

And it's therefore entirely wrong for the setting, because only Maiar (not Elves and absolutely not Dwarves!) should be up to calling lightning and they'd not be flinging it from their fingertips, even then. Don't try to pretend stuff like that is 'pure Tolkien' when it never, ever happens in the books.

The 'true name' thing is bogus, too. Wrong fantasy. It wasn't that words had that sort of power, it's that people who had innate power could use it to empower their words. That, for instance, is why there was power in the inscription on the One Ring (as shown by what happened when Gandalf did no more than read the words out loud) - it's not that the words in themselves were magical (in themselves, they were just common words in the Black Speech), it was who had said them and the intent he'd used them to frame, while putting so much of his power into them.

[maxjenius]

And it's therefore entirely wrong for the setting, because only Maiar (not Elves and absolutely not Dwarves!) should be up to calling lightning and they'd not be flinging it from their fingertips, even then. Don't try to pretend stuff like that is 'pure Tolkien' when it never, ever happens in the books.

How conveniently your rationalizations work. You'll bend over backwards to justify bog lurkers but go ballistic over Rune-keepers.

[Radhruin_EU]

How conveniently your rationalizations work. You'll bend over backwards to justify bog lurkers but go ballistic over Rune-keepers.

You've got bog lurkers on the brain. The idea behind them really isn't all that bad, it's just the artwork that looks a bit off. It's not like they go around firing lightning out of their backsides

[maxjenius]

You've got bog lurkers on the brain. The idea behind them really isn't all that bad, it's just the artwork that looks a bit off. It's not like they go around firing lightning out of their backsides

So your beef with Rune-keepers is that they shoot lightning. So can we assume you have a similar problem with Lore-masters hurling fireballs or causing the ground to crack under their enemies' feet? Or Minstrels calling down shafts of light?

[Radhruin_EU]

So your beef with Rune-keepers is that they shoot lightning. So can we assume you have a similar problem with Lore-masters hurling fireballs or causing the ground to crack under their enemies' feet? Or Minstrels calling down shafts of light?

My beef with RKs is that they're basically an 'elemental' I-need-no-weapon-but-magic sort of mage that's been shoehorned into the game, and I think that RPing them literally is a bad idea because of the way they're styled. The whole lightning-from-the-fingertips thing, in particular. The same goes for anything else that's particularly showy and that by description would have to be 'really' happening (e.g. the RK's lightning would have to be 'real' because of Call to Storm) or which would defy description in narrative (e.g. what is the Burglar supposed to be 'really' doing when using HiPS?).

[MightyKOko]

Elven Sith!
Yoda will pwn u all!

[Laire]

My beef with RKs is that they're basically an 'elemental' I-need-no-weapon-but-magic sort of mage that's been shoehorned into the game, and I think that RPing them literally is a bad idea because of the way they're styled. The whole lightning-from-the-fingertips thing, in particular. The same goes for anything else that's particularly showy and that by description would have to be 'really' happening (e.g. the RK's lightning would have to be 'real' because of Call to Storm) or which would defy description in narrative (e.g. what is the Burglar supposed to be 'really' doing when using HiPS?).

Agreed completely.

Only RK I've seen RPed really well was a really ancient Elf who did not use rune-stones in combat, but... I am probably doing her injustice with this description, but they were used to get in better touch with the Song that runs throughout all of Arda, thus giving her a better ability to perceive some things about her. Nothing ridiculously specific, like 'this guy is at this coordination', but more along things that are elemental...

Yea, I'm probably explaining it terribly. But it was well done. No flashiness, nothing overdone, but unique and believable of an ancient Elf.

[Daeross]

--- I think that RPing them literally is a bad idea because of the way they're styled.---

(emphasis mine)

One's free to think whatever one wants; applies to everyone here.
But one's not free to tell others the way they want to enjoy/experience the game as intended by Turbine is faulty.
One's not free to 'harsh others' mellow', to use a phrase.

"1. While participating in the Game or on the Game Website you must respect the rights of others to play and enjoy the Game world as intended by Turbine."

That includes Rune-keepers. That includes RPing as an RK. That includes the orbital ion cannons of Minstrels. That includes female dwarves fighting in Moria, and having been part of Balin's expedition.

One's free to state one's opinions, but one's not free to state them as facts, or as rules on how to play/enjoy the game.

[Radhruin_EU]

But one's not free to tell others the way they want to enjoy/experience the game as intended by Turbine is faulty.

If anyone makes a habit of trying to 'RP' Turbine's clunky (overly abstracted) game-mechanics literally, though, then their RP will be every bit as clunky and there's nothing wrong with pointing out that it's inherently 'faulty' to do that. The game mechanics don't really treat hobbits as hobbits, for instance - there's essentially no downside to being only three-foot-six (roughly the size of a four-year old child) as far as the game mechanics are concerned, whereas there obviously would be. That sort of thing is actively at odds with RP, and are a direct consequence of how the game mechanics weren't designed with RP in mind. As for RKs, well, Turbine didn't even manage to make the idea behind the class internally consistent so RPing them literally could only perpetuate the same built-in fault it has (that despite what Turbine say, what's happening can't be metaphorical because some skill descriptions require it to be 'real').

[maxjenius]

My beef with RKs is that they're basically an 'elemental' I-need-no-weapon-but-magic sort of mage that's been shoehorned into the game, and I think that RPing them literally is a bad idea because of the way they're styled. The whole lightning-from-the-fingertips thing, in particular. The same goes for anything else that's particularly showy and that by description would have to be 'really' happening (e.g. the RK's lightning would have to be 'real' because of Call to Storm) or which would defy description in narrative (e.g. what is the Burglar supposed to be 'really' doing when using HiPS?).

Nice dodge on the Lore-master and Minstrel. Couldn't even be bothered to try to rationalize your way out of it, eh?

A good RPer will RP what he or she is presented with. Rune-keepers?

You: How do you shoot lighting from your hands that way?
RK: I doubt I could explain it to you.

Unless you're meta-gaming (which I suspect you do quite a lot of if you RP), you really have no IC response to gainsay the Rune-keeper.

[Daeross]

If anyone makes a habit of trying to 'RP' Turbine's clunky (overly abstracted) game-mechanics literally, though, then their RP will be every bit as clunky and there's nothing wrong with pointing out that it's inherently 'faulty' to do that.---

--- As for RKs, well, Turbine didn't even manage to make the idea behind the class internally consistent so RPing them literally could only perpetuate the same built-in fault it has (that despite what Turbine say, what's happening can't be metaphorical because some skill descriptions require it to be 'real').

That's your opinion, both about the game mechanics as well as RPing. Opinion <> fact.

Besides which... What does it matter to you how anyone RPs? What possible effect might it have on your gaming?
Not to even mention the highly subjective "quality of RPing"... all levels of which are allowed, if not outright encouraged by the game and the people behind it; for example, one can't report anyone for 'bad RPing'. Ignore, though, is easily implemented.

[Radhruin_EU]

That's your opinion, both about the game mechanics as well as RPing. Opinion <> fact.

Besides which... What does it matter to you how anyone RPs? What possible effect might it have on your gaming?
Not to even mention the highly subjective "quality of RPing"... all levels of which are allowed, if not outright encouraged by the game and the people behind it; for example, one can't report anyone for 'bad RPing'. Ignore, though, is easily implemented.

Oh, so you think that there's nothing odd about game mechanics that allow a hobbit to tank just as well as anybody else? Those are MMO-style mechanics, intended to keep Joe Gamer happy (with his apparent need to feel 'powerful' no matter what he's playing) but they're not made like that to be RP-friendly.

You can tell when game mechanics are overly abstracted when they routinely yield silly results (like being able to kill things just by shouting at them, for example). Your opinion seems to be ignoring the demonstrable fact that such odd results exist as artifacts of the 'morale' system. The game mechanics aren't internally consistent as Turbine have taken the 'morale' metaphor way past breaking point (e.g. War-speech and the desperate pretence that what Minstrels do isn't 'really' magic, when it's quite plainly a caster class in all but name), and so RPing along literally with that mess would end up being just as broken.

[Radhruin_EU]

A good RPer will RP what he or she is presented with. Rune-keepers?

What, including game-mechanical howlers like the way the RK can parry using their pet rock? The class isn't self-consistent. Aha! Turbine go. Here's your mage class, it's so powerfully magical it needs no weapons! Except it was probably getting shredded in melee in play-testing, so they fiddled it to allow it to parry.

As for this:

You: How do you shoot lighting from your hands that way?
RK: I doubt I could explain it to you.

That's the RP equivalent of a shrug and you'd find yourself doing that a lot. Obvious cop-out is obvious. The next one would be why the predominantly 'elemental' styling, when words could do so much more... again, shrugging it off would be the best you could do because there's no sensible internal explanation for it.

[sarlinspellweaver]

I don't mean to be rude, but what you're describing is basically not an MMO - a MUD perhaps, or better yet social roleplay over the table. I love all these things (especially The One Ring RPG), but I also know that an MMO requires suspension of certain rules.

What you're getting with Turbine is a fantastic MMO interpretation of Middle Earth. The fact that there are some excellent roleplay communities in Landroval and Laurelin makes the game even better. But in many ways, it's not exactly designed for hardcore RPing first and foremost.

I have a runekeeper who I enjoy playing - and I make no apologies for that. I RP him almost exclusively without combat, and so don't RP being a "runekeeper". When I have RPd combat with him, it's always been as a healer. Now, if I and my kinsmen approached that with a literalist mindset, we'd have to say - why is standing there and glowing green making us "heal"? I RP as someone with poultices and bandages, running this way and that, patching up the warriors as they fight like a field medic. That requires imagination - but no more or less imagination than pretending that my horse doesn't disappear when I dismount, or pretending that what I'm typing in the emote channel is actually happening.

It's imagination. If you're stuck on the way things appear on screen, then play a MUD, or better yet The One Ring, and you'll be much happier.

[Daeross]

sarlinspellweaver:
/agreed, with abandon.

Radhruin_EU:
Tit for tat.

Answer my questions, I'll answer yours.

[Radhruin_EU]

Radhruin_EU:
Tit for tat.

Answer my questions, I'll answer yours.

What sort of answer do you want? It should be obvious how people's actions can affect other players on an RP server. There's a limit to how much you can ignore.

The core game mechanics (leaving aside 'fluff' like emotes, music and outfits) do nothing to encourage RP because they make characters of a given class so little different from one another. It makes no essential difference to be a hobbit rather than a Man. NPCs don't really care who or what you are. And this idea of 'you are the hero' is very much there to suit your typical MMO player, not RPers since there's very little mileage in RPing the uber hero, especially when we can't all be 'the' hero of the piece at once. We have to use our imaginations to escape the straitjacket that the game mechanics impose, as best we can - by contrast, a literalist reading of the core game mechanics in RP is just plain dire because those very game mechanics are anti-RP in spirit. They're designed to make Joe Gamer feel that his character is 'uber', which is why they're so over the top. They're not designed to be immersive, or even consistent. Some of them (like HiPS, as I mentioned earlier) are metagaming, skills that defy explanation. So go on, tell me how game mechanics that are essentially anti-RP can possibly encourage RP 'at all levels'. The best RP appears to me to happen when everyone ignores the core game mechanics entirely.

[maxjenius]

What, including game-mechanical howlers like the way the RK can parry using their pet rock? The class isn't self-consistent. Aha! Turbine go. Here's your mage class, it's so powerfully magical it needs no weapons! Except it was probably getting shredded in melee in play-testing, so they fiddled it to allow it to parry.

Do you see Rune-keepers parrying with their rune-stones? No. All combat is just one big abstraction.

That's the RP equivalent of a shrug and you'd find yourself doing that a lot.

And so?

Obvious cop-out is obvious.

"Obvious 'X' is obvious" is even worse. You're saying it's obvious simply because you think it's obvious. "Obvious" is often what people say in an argument when they have nothing substantive to say. A weak, transparent rhetorical device.

The next one would be why the predominantly 'elemental' styling, when words could do so much more... again, shrugging it off would be the best you could do because there's no sensible internal explanation for it.

No explanation needed. And I see you're still evading the Lore-master and Minstrel issues. That's the problem you have. Simply for matters of personal preference, which you couch in "lore," you accept some lore-breaking nonsense and reject others. I don't find Rune-keepers terribly lore-friendly, but if we're gonna have the game topped off with loads of other lore-breaking nonsense, the better course is to simply go with the flow and accept that LotRO is Turbine's Middle-earth, not Tolkien's. That's the way I deal with lurkers without mentally giggling every time I see one.

So again, it's really not your positions on X and Y and how lore-friendly or lore-breaking they are I take issue with, it's your cherry-picking rationalizations.