The Death of group play? (Open tapping/contribution discussion)

[hucklebarry]

but if when in a Fellowship all parties must damage the target to get credit, what about the Minstrel or the healing RK, if a Fellowship takes on a large warband does this mean the Minstrel MUST damage the target to get credit for it.

No. They only need to heal those doing the damage and will get credit.

[Valinerya]

Actually Open-tapping just open the door for more group play.

by example, GW2 is all about open-tapping and I've seen no issue at all about group play, you don't tap, you don't get stuff, but if you tapp everything, you get it all..

True... but GW2 also auto-levels you down to whatever area you are playing in. LOTRO does not. GW2 also does not have slayer deeds that have the same implications as LOTRO does - meaning in LOTRO, slayer deeds count for something.

This makes a BIG difference when it comes to the slayer deeds. Many wait until they are well above level to take on the 450 or so worms needs for the Angmar virtue deed. Some classes can easily one-shot these critters, and being in a group killing some while your fellow kills some will no longer net you the same results. You get credit for what you tapped, they get credit for what they tapped... even in a group.

[WiltenRose]

From the CSTM Open Tapping Beta Video: http://casualstrolltomordor.com/2012...tapping-video/
Here, they clearly show how the mechanic worked both inside and outside of fellowship. So it is not a bug, but WAI.

We can, of course, argue about whether this change is a good thing or not. I think it presents some problems beyond what has already been addressed. My main is a hunter and my wife plays a minstrel, if we are deeding low-level creatures together, I may be one-shotting them before she has a chance to do anything to help me, so I'll get all the credit and she'll get none. Turbine should revise this rule so that all fellowship members share in the tapping of all targets.

[Cliford]

I cant believe how many ppl completely missed the OPs point, and assumed he was trying to "exploit the system". Kudos on not getting frustrated with all the Lotro fanboys that dont think before they post. Anyone whos played an mmo should know how pointless open tapping would make joining a fellowship to perform any role other than dps.

Same... And I am happy that there are ppl that see that something is wrong. This is seriouss issue.
I can't belive so many ppl missunderstood idea of group play.

[Erlessa]

What if I'm deeding with a hunter friend and he heartseekers our target to death? What if I happen to do the same with remorseless strike? Should we like 'hey lets both hit it with an autoattack first, just to be safe!'. There are mobs even on equal lvl that can be oneshotted, and grouping for deeds has been made impossible, grats!

[Lurkerinthemist]

From the CSTM Open Tapping Beta Video: http://casualstrolltomordor.com/2012...tapping-video/
Here, they clearly show how the mechanic worked both inside and outside of fellowship. So it is not a bug, but WAI.

We can, of course, argue about whether this change is a good thing or not. I think it presents some problems beyond what has already been addressed. My main is a hunter and my wife plays a minstrel, if we are deeding low-level creatures together, I may be one-shotting them before she has a chance to do anything to help me, so I'll get all the credit and she'll get none. Turbine should revise this rule so that all fellowship members share in the tapping of all targets.

I just watched the video (I hate game videos so I didn't watch it before.) She does all the testing outside of a fellowship. From her comments, I'm betting she was not aware that the tapping worked the same way inside a fellow. "Will make deeding so much easier," and "I love to group," are quotes from the video that I take as proof that they were not aware of fellowship changes.

IMHO - open-tapping is great, nice add. But taking away the group benefit was bad. Oddly, I knew this was coming in pvp but hadn't translated it over to a change in pve. If this remains it will finally put to death any freepside play for me.

[Thorgrum]

It should be noted that Turbine has, to my knowledge, never said anything about whether this is working correctly or not with formal groups, only that the open-tapping mechanic itself is meant to work this way (and it is, it seems). There is so far no indication that groups no longer getting group credit is a bug or a design choice.

I suspect its a design choice, per the diary.

Step 3:
We are making all the monsters in Rohan use the new open-tapping rules (aka tapping doesn’t exist). If you contribute to killing a monster in Rohan you will get full kill, deed, quest, and XP credit as if you killed the mob solo.

I have to think they tested this in a group setting and someone told them group members werent getting XP. Thats a major design shift for the fellow, Id be floored if they just left it out with an "oops" moment.

[DanteIL]

After going back to re-read the original Dev thread about open-tapping and the other information that I could find, I have been led to the conclusion that the original situation described in the OP -- i.e., not getting credit for in-fellowship kills -- must be WAI. It appears that I personally mis-interpreted the Dev's posting about this, on the assumption that they wouldn't change the in-fellowship mechanic (only the not-in-fellowship mechanic).

The saving grace is that this seems to be limited to Rohan so far: although the XP penalties have been removed for all areas, the must-damage-or-heal-to-get-credit requirement seems to be Rohan-specific. So this shouldn't affect grouping for lower-level slayer deeds, but it will definitely affect grouping up for quest kills and deeds in Rohan.

[Crell_1]

i certainly can't imagine not being able to share kills across groups as WAI.

The fact that contribute status is at the character and not group level was mentioned more than once over the beta. No solution was devised. Hopefully they'll 1. Decide its a problem 2. Get it fixed ASAP

(as opposed to other things that Turbine doesn't think is a problem, but the players do)

[RoseIvy]

Sounds like a two boxer just found out something that ruined his day.

Not sure why you said that or really even what you mean, but it didn't sound good. If what he is saying is true, that means that a healer in a group, as an example, is going to come up with zero experience. How is that good for grouping? It isn't. I hope what he's reporting is simply a bug, because if he's not, fellowships are a thing of the past, except in unique situations.

[Ceejay90]

Funny, but I posted elsewhere that it is the death for the solo specialist. I have soloed to 75 and am going to get royally annoyed with people tapping my kills. On the other hand my Hunter will just wander round, one quick shot to any nearly dead mob being killed by any group and sit and wait for the exp and reward. I should be able to get to 85 with very little effort. i KNOW I lose no exp if someone joins in but I DO NOT WANT THEM TO!!!! I want to kill the mob, me alone

Open Tappping...lol death of MM onrpg's

[HimToo]

Same... And I am happy that there are ppl that see that something is wrong. This is seriouss issue.
I can't belive so many ppl missunderstood idea of group play.

We'll see. I hope they bring back fellowships, though. I do not see a reason for them in Rohan.

[TaSwavo4God]

To make matters worse, as a Guardian every time I mount (my normal mount, not warsteed either), my stance gets deactivated... this might seem like a small matter, but now Protection also gets switched off because of that and every time we dismount to engage new enemies we have to activate it again... this gets annoying VERY quickly...

Thought I'd pick up on the other point made by the OP.
If this hasn't been fixed it's pretty poor - it was reported as a bug by AT LEAST 1 person during beta (I was a Champion that didn't like losing ardour because I got on a normal horse and off again).
I can possibly understand if they need to remove the stance if I get on a war-steed (as the game mechanics may involve incompatible information or settings) but to remove stance on any normal nag seems wrong.

Or are they suggesting that those of us that want to keep our stance should run?
Not sure if the OP meant just in Rohan area or even back in Bree, etc. I never tried much out-of-Rohan stuff in the last rounds of beta

[Pasoth]

No that's just how group play worked in the past, Rohan has changed that and it is not a big deal. It should only be a problem for people looking to exploit the system. The mobs still count towards quests and deeds right? Sounds like someone just wants to pick up a load of quests and go on follow while the other 'person' does the work.

In response to your point, you are playing with a guardian so AoE and tagging mobs should be a non-issue. If you were playing with a burg they could trait dust in the eyes for some AoE.

Dust is a debuff not an attack so no tap. The follow thing is irrelevant. Follow has to be consensual. You could kick someone from a fellow or get them stuck somewhere if you don't want them following.

Whoa, I can't believe people are this dense...

The Champ/Burg example illustrates it perfectly. The Champ raging blades everything to death while the Burg is plinking away at one mob. Champ gets credit for all the mobs he hit, Burg only gets credit for the one mob he was able to attack. Or maybe it's two people taking on two different mobs. Again, what is the point of grouping now?

A terrible oversight that has no justification.

Yup.

This is exactly why I said open tapping was a bad idea and totally antisocial for groups, but no-one would listen, they all thought it was the best thing ever!

Put simply, if 2-3 players group in a fellowship, let's say a Guardian, a Hunter and a healer spec Minstrel. The Guardian tanks and gets credit for tapping mobs, the Hunter does ranged DPS and gets credit for tapping mobs, the Healer keeps healing the Guardian and gets no credit for tapping mobs. So the Guardian and Hunter both get xp and loot while the Minstrel gets naff all and never will unless he quits being a healer, goes into Warspeach and taps mobs while letting the Guardian die if necessary! A totally antisocial approach to MMOs, a reason to never group up in fellowships and turns the game into a Solo only game with no need for healer classes in the future!

So basically if you are a healer, you're screwed, welcome to the future of Lotro!

Healing should be tapping. Damage or healing should be causing a tap, if it is not bug it.

AoE and Hots are a serious advantage to open tapping, everyone else got the shaft.

Yes I did post numerous posts in beta about this change.. This mechanic in my opinion is broken for fellowships, and is one of the major reasons I asked for round 7 beta!

[Mark_J]

Just file bug reports about it. I can't believe for a minute that Turbine intentionally removed sharing XP/Deeds/Kills within a fellowship unless damage is dealt.

Rally Cry isn't assisting in the kill? Really?

[HimToo]

Not sure why you said that or really even what you mean, but it didn't sound good. If what he is saying is true, that means that a healer in a group, as an example, is going to come up with zero experience. How is that good for grouping? It isn't. I hope what he's reporting is simply a bug, because if he's not, fellowships are a thing of the past, except in unique situations.

Healing someone doing Damage will contribute. Tanks, and any debuffs or CC are going to be pretty limited. Seems like all classes should use pure dps now. This should be fun to watch the tanks try to tap everything to make sure they get credit instead of watching the boss. <evil grin>

[RoseIvy]

I suspect its a design choice, per the diary.



I have to think they tested this in a group setting and someone told them group members werent getting XP. Thats a major design shift for the fellow, Id be floored if they just left it out with an "oops" moment.

So, if all that is true and the Devs know group members only get credit if they "tap" each target, then what happens to healers' experience? Are they now expected to heal AND run around tapping every mob? Couple of things will happen there. People are gonna die, Number One... And Fellowships are gonna die, Number Two.

Also, if Random Player A comes along and finds Random Player B fighting the named mob or quest mob HE needs and now can get all XP, quest credit, and whatever else for tapping a mob, what's going to prevent rampant kill-steals? I see that as a real possibility. Been there, done that, Tshirt in other games and I'll guarantee that dog won't hunt for long.

[Nymphonic]

Whoa, I can't believe people are this dense...

The Champ/Burg example illustrates it perfectly. The Champ raging blades everything to death while the Burg is plinking away at one mob. Champ gets credit for all the mobs he hit, Burg only gets credit for the one mob he was able to attack. Or maybe it's two people taking on two different mobs. Again, what is the point of grouping now?

A terrible oversight that has no justification.

Agreed 100%. If you are in a fellow, you should get credit for whatever for fellow player does. That's part of being, well...a fellow.

[Baahb3]

I have to agree here. This 'open tapping' should not occur within a fellowship.

Fellowship:
A guardian grabs 10 mobs, taunts, controls them, the LM then debuffs all of them allowing the champ to come in and AoE them all down in 2-3 hits. Champ 10, Guardian/LM 0. That sucks.

[Kril]

Oh please say this isn't so, or that it is going to be fixed... I play with my wife a fair bit, but more on my own, most of my characters are in raid gear, most of her characters are in quest/crafted gear... Needless to say, my DPS is a LOT better then hers (even my guard out dpses her champ most times). So if I'm on hunter or champ, and she's on a LM or warden, and I tear through a couple mobs quickly, she isn't going to get credit, come on!

[Lestache]

I have to agree here. This 'open tapping' should not occur within a fellowship.

Fellowship:
A guardian grabs 10 mobs, taunts, controls them, the LM then debuffs all of them allowing the champ to come in and AoE them all down in 2-3 hits. Champ 10, Guardian/LM 0. That sucks.

That would suck, but Guardian taunts tap mobs (or did pre-RoR, at least - hard to confirm that right now from the "Examine Game Data" portion of the launcher), and almost every LM debuff also taps a mob (save SoP:Command).

Perhaps 'tapping' has been redefined to only include damaging attacks and heals on those who do damage, however. I can't be sure, but those would be easy things to test.

[Nakiami]

I suspect its a design choice, per the diary.

Please, what part of the dev diary states that not getting kill credit when in a formal group and not hitting a mob is WAI?

Others have said this, but again: The section you keep quoting says that if you contribute to a kill you get full credit. It does not state that if you don't contribute to a kill that you won't get credit ever. That may sound silly, but remember how fellowshipping has worked for five years! It does not state that the mechanic of fellowship members getting credit if in range even if they don't hit a mob will be removed!

[podgie_bear]

All this was brought up on the forum weeks ago and anyone who dared say that there would be problems with open tapping was shouted down and told not to be selfish as this would be great for everyone. Well now players are starting to see what some of have been saying all this time and I guarantee that there is worse to come as some players become obsessed with tapping everything and getting in the way of/interfering with other players. This could make forced emotes a non-issue in comparison. I just pray that Turbine has their minds changed before they decide to implement it worldwide and not just in Rohan. Don't think that it won't happen, because it will if the players don't make them reconsider!

Unless this gets sorted and group/fellowship play is fixed, this is likely to become the most unsocial MMO on the web as it positively discourages group play and only rewards individual effort!

[Lestache]

All this was brought up on the forum weeks ago and anyone who dared say that there would be problems with open tapping was shouted down and told not to be selfish as this would be great for everyone. Well now players are starting to see what some of have been saying all this time and I guarantee that there is worse to come as some players become obsessed with tapping everything and getting in the way of/interfering with other players. This could make forced emotes a non-issue in comparison.

I just pray that Turbine has their minds changed before they decide to implement it worldwide and not just in Rohan. Don't think that it won't happen, because it will if the players don't make them reconsider!

Yeah...

What this thread is about - fellowship members not getting credit for kills - has nothing to do with the premature complaints that were raised weeks ago, most of which centered around, "I don't want people hitting my mobs."

I understand that you don't like open tapping and that it's a bit of a pet issue for you, but this thread isn't a complaint about what you want it to be a complaint about.

[uw1975]

While Open-Tapping might be a good idea, the fact that you have to deal damage to get a credit even in a group is not a good idea at all, as some classes will have clearly some disadvantages over the others.

As a Cappy, I won't be using that much my debuffs and I suspect Burgs and LMs won't either for fear of losing the kill.

One extreme case would be for instance two burgs questing in a fellow and targeting different mobs (that's the point of being in a fellow, right to maximise the time/kill ratios) and one hunter who isn't in the fellow and following from afar, throwing some AOE from time to time to get the credits. Burgs won't get each other's credits even if in the same fellow while the Hunter will get both even if he is not in the fellowship. Does not make any sense to me.

Please Turbine, consider getting back to the old system if players are in the same fellowship. Otherwise there is really no point in being in a fellowship.