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  1. #226
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like all they did was make it to where you have to inflict actual damage to an enemy so that you get credit for the kill.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kril View Post
    I don't think we'll be having open tapping in instances, however, think of group quests like in limlight gorge. Sure, trees get blown away by the entire fellowship, but what about the starter quests?

    Specifically the spiders. The little spiders were horribly anti-melee, but you needed to loot them. The ranged classes would tear them apart before they hit the group ideally. Now this wouldn't be possible as to be able to get credit and loot for them, you have to hit them???
    Limlight Gorge is not in RoR, so what does that have to do with open tapping?

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kril View Post
    I never said that, I'm using an example of old game-play that isn't feasible because of the new group tapping mechanics. Basically, we won't see any group world content like LLG, and if we do, it will be a subject of much woe... The new jewellery remains crafted, scaled instances, or Hytbold
    Yes I know, and due to open tapping only working in RoR, you can't really bring LL into this. If they added a new zone like LL in a patch, then we can talk. But what if scenarios are not a good argument. I can see the debuff argument people are talking about, but isn't gust of wind an AoE that debuffs and damages at the same time? Really, the only class that seems to be shafted from this is burgs. At least talking from an unmounted perspective. Haven't played my burg mounted yet (due to the fact I haven't even been able to login...)

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke1995 View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like all they did was make it to where you have to inflict actual damage to an enemy so that you get credit for the kill.
    ...or heal somebody being damaged by the mob.

    And that's the problem.
    The forums are not an accurate representation of the thoughts and feelings of the whole player base. Those who like a particular feature are in the game enjoying that feature. Those who don't like it log out to mention it on the forums. It is a relevant but biased source of feedback, and any claims of community desire should take this fact into account.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxjenius View Post
    Perhaps you can tell us which RoR instance you've experienced this in.

    You're fretting in a vacuum.
    Meet the Raid-sized warband Bugund!

    or some of the more annoying small fellowship ones! =P

    Same issue.
    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
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  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tailborn View Post
    Guys relax it's probably a bug. If not? Well get used to how grouping works now. You actually have to put some effort in rather then sitting there watching your fellows.

    Maybe hit an attack key once? Not hard..

    -TailyB
    Again, someone who clearly has no idea what's going on, so chooses to make bizarre accusations. This is like Invasion of the Body Snatchers or something.


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    [CENTER][COLOR="SeaGreen"][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=3573897#post3573897"][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="4"]From Balin's Tomb to the Bridge of Khazad-dum[/SIZE][/FONT][/URL][/COLOR][/CENTER]
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  7. #232
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    Solution?

    If
    player in group = True,
    then
    Open Tap = False
    else
    Open Tap = True

    and

    If
    player in group = True
    and
    player contributed = True
    then
    Get Loot = true
    else
    Get Loot = false


    I'm sure I missed a few states, but wouldn't a simple if/then statement be useful to help solve this? It would prevent multi-boxers from exploiting, at least. (I am a multi-boxer)
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0820700000017b961/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  8. Oct 16 2012, 03:42 PM

  9. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by podgie_bear View Post
    It is happening in game, or have you not tried fellowship in Rohan yet? My kin is complaining like hell about how fellowship play is now broken and some players who do a lot towards the groups success are getting naff all reward!
    This is correct. It isn't about what someone thinks is happening, but what we are now seeing is happening. Ironically, many of the posts in here are just some strange claims that someone either can't deal with the truth, read a dev diary, or accept reality. Such tripe has nothing to do with the issue.


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    [CENTER][COLOR="SeaGreen"][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=3573897#post3573897"][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="4"]From Balin's Tomb to the Bridge of Khazad-dum[/SIZE][/FONT][/URL][/COLOR][/CENTER]
    [center][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=264595"][FONT="Times New Roman"][SIZE="4"]All Along the River: The War of the Ring on the Water[/SIZE][/FONT][/URL][/center]

  10. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shrelana View Post

    This is teaching people how NOT to play their classes when they are grouping for instances and you will end up with even more folks in end game that don't know how to buff, debuff, support, etc, etc...
    Yep I agree with this statement, although I wouldn't have put it so nicely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke1995 View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like all they did was make it to where you have to inflict actual damage to an enemy so that you get credit for the kill.
    Yes, making it more efficient to solo than group. Reducing fellowships to unskillful mash fests, with a long pause to make sure everyone tappped! Try typing something while the fellow moves along, watch how many kills you miss out on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ailedra View Post
    ...or heal somebody doing damage to the mob.

    And that's the problem.
    Fixed

    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    Meet the Raid-sized warband Bugund!

    or some of the more annoying small fellowship ones! =P

    Same issue.
    Tab, attack, Tab, attack, Tab, attack, is not a sensible gameplay mechanic to introduce to fellowships.

    I wonder how much longer this thread will get when more people start to duo+ on horse back..

    Oh you hadn't tapped.. I'm sorry let's wait for a respawn..
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000005049e/01005/signature.png]Paso[/charsig]

  11. #235
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    This is bad for groups. If a loremaster mezzes/stuns multiple mobs and debuffs the rest while restoring power, he gets absolutely jack for contributing to the group?

    Another person already posted the problem of a mainly single-target character grouped with someone who likes tossing out AoE's, for instance a burglar and champion, the burglar's really not going to get anything from the group?

    Groups are formed because people *want* to play together, they want to work together, they want to share. Whenever I see someone out in the wild on a similar quest, i send them a /tell, "I'm killing X also, want to group up?" We usually always do then we might continue together or we might split up and go our separate ways. Trying to cut off group members that "don't contribute" isn't very fair -- they're in a group, they want it set up like that, if they didn't want to all be sharing whatever, then they wouldn't be in a group.
    As a level 1 burglar, Bilbo got a pony when he joined the Smaug The Dragon raid. Then he asked for leadership, looted the chest, assigned himself the 1st age Arkenstone and mailed it to an alt (Bilbo's a VIP so can mail from anywhere). They did some PvMP and an Epic Battle, then he apologized and gave the Arkenstone back because it wasn't BoA. He kept the pony.

  12. #236
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    As usual, a few complain on the forums, which to them means "most players" have a problem with something.

  13. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    Meet the Raid-sized warband Bugund! or some of the more annoying small fellowship ones! =P Same issue.
    Haven't quite made it that far. Still mucking around Langhold. In any event, someone mentioning Limlight Gorge and trying to extrapolate open tapping problems from it is not very compelling.

  14. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isharra View Post
    As for fellowships no longer sharing credit - I am not sure how I feel about that, but I am leaning toward being fine with it. There are probably game-balancing and coding issues with making everything work fairly/correctly, so if the solution is that everyone has to contribute in certain fashion to each kill, then so be it.

    My only hesitation, really, is that I hope debuffs are seen as contributing, and I haven't tried it so I do not know. This isn't a fellowship concern so much as a general gameplay one.

    Once again, because obviously some people here are just not getting it: Players in groups ARE contributing, using the various skills that their class uses, but they are NOT getting any xp or loot for having done so, unless they simply hit the mob. Obviously this raises issues for certain classes.

    If not a bug, then it's still a mystery as to why the devs apparently now think that mere damage to a mob (and damage only!) is the only legitimate form of contribution. Debuffs and CC (which some classes were designed to do) aren't contributions now? Melee and CC classes get no xp or loot if a hunter in their own group kills something from far away? Read all the problems that are now arising due to this change.

    It makes no sense at all, which is why many suspect that it's a bug.


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    [CENTER][COLOR="SeaGreen"][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=3573897#post3573897"][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="4"]From Balin's Tomb to the Bridge of Khazad-dum[/SIZE][/FONT][/URL][/COLOR][/CENTER]
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  15. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxjenius View Post
    As usual, a few complain on the forums, which to them means "most players" have a problem with something.
    Not as usual really. I've seen many posters in this thread that aren't big complainers around here and a few that don't seem to post much at all. Anyway, if it is wrong for us to make assumptions based on a forum thread then it's wrong for you to do the same in reverse in your post.
    Jeffaman-Guarding Hobbit Jeffro-Burgling Hobbit Tinulaurien-Elf Lore Master Cephus-Champion of Men Lilnooblet-Hunting Hobbit Jeffrandir-Snooty Elf Rune-keeper- All of Brandywine
    Long live the halflings! Praise them with great praise!
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  16. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxjenius View Post
    As usual, a few complain on the forums, which to them means "most players" have a problem with something.
    Can you explain why damage should apparently now be considered the only legitimate form of contribution to a group?


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    [CENTER][COLOR="SeaGreen"][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=3573897#post3573897"][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="4"]From Balin's Tomb to the Bridge of Khazad-dum[/SIZE][/FONT][/URL][/COLOR][/CENTER]
    [center][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=264595"][FONT="Times New Roman"][SIZE="4"]All Along the River: The War of the Ring on the Water[/SIZE][/FONT][/URL][/center]

  17. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxjenius View Post
    As usual, a few complain on the forums, which to them means "most players" have a problem with something.
    Take a look though man. Check the other fairly active thread on the topic as well with all the people wanting changes to to how group tapping works. Yes, LOTRO has a very high solo player base, but it also has a lot of duo players (hence why we actually have a 2 man skirm setting). Yeah, a lot of them haven't come to the forums to complain (yet), but those are the same ones that don't ever come to the forums. The response from the forum users is a very HIGH percentage of forum users that don't like the new mechanic.

  18. #242
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    When I first read the developer notes about open tapping coming to LoTRO I thought it sounded like a good idea. From playing GW2 for the last 1.5 months, dynamic events and open tapping has been a blast. (Note: There are some problems in GW2 with open tapping that become more obvious once you hit lvl 80 and are doing dynamic events - but overall its a very refreshing change.)

    However from playing both GW2 and LoTRO I can see exactly what the problem is for LoTRO. Turbine has taken an innovative and fresh MMO design concept and attempted to graft it onto an older EQ/WoW style game. LoTRO, like mnay other MMOs growing long in the tooth, comes from an era of the proverbial "holy trinity" of MMOs: tank, healer, DPS. For games like EQ2 and LoTRO you can expand that list to also include buffer/debuffer. These are core design approaches deeply baked into how LoTRO classes work, and how encounters, dungeons, and raids have been built.

    Open tapping works for GW2 because the class design, dungeons, dynamic events, etc... were built from the ground up with open tapping in mind.

    Although I credit Turbine with attempting to bring some more innovation to their game, you can't take a radical concept like open tapping and bolt it on top of an older-gen MMO. When you do that you end up with the proverbial impedance mismatch and all of the problems that players are listing in this thread.
    Last edited by fluffygodzilla; Oct 16 2012 at 04:45 PM.

  19. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rippentuck View Post
    Can you explain why damage should apparently now be considered the only legitimate form of contribution to a group?
    This is precisely the issue.

    The reason why this mechanic is dead at inception that it's absolutely a legitiate situation for a player to help killing mob A by holding mobs B, C and D at bay (or healing someone who does). That's real contribution, which doesn't include any form of damage, healing, buffing, or debuffing related to mob A.
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  20. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kril View Post
    Take a look though man. Check the other fairly active thread on the topic as well with all the people wanting changes to to how group tapping works. Yes, LOTRO has a very high solo player base, but it also has a lot of duo players (hence why we actually have a 2 man skirm setting). Yeah, a lot of them haven't come to the forums to complain (yet), but those are the same ones that don't ever come to the forums. The response from the forum users is a very HIGH percentage of forum users that don't like the new mechanic.
    You said it: a high percentage of posters who bother to post on the topic don't like the feature. That means nothing in terms of the overall player base.

    Did no one bother to peruse this thread?
    Last edited by maxjenius; Oct 16 2012 at 05:04 PM.

  21. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by SungXe View Post
    Anyway there is a reason it's only applied to ROHAN. So all people crying over kill DEEDs are exergating.
    There are slayer deeds in Rohan too. And in the future if level cap goes up again certainly people will want to head back to Rohan in a group to finish some of them up. Plus people will still be able to one-shot a lot of enemies in Rohan, if they're high dps class or have ranked up their war steed a lot.

    Ie, heavy steed gets Trample eventually. Damages and knocks back an unmounted opponent. Flip it on and charge an orc camp, they scatter all over the place, if you aim it right you can kill a few swam class enemies that way. Good luck with a burglar trying to tap them before their dead.

    We're not saying that the entire concept is broken. Just that the fellowship part of it is broken. It does need fixing. It's silly to think that just because it's working as intended that people should just shut up and learn to deal with it.

  22. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damojo View Post
    If the issue is fairness,
    I don't think that's an issue for most people. However if you are in a group you are actively being discouraged from using smart group skills and instead encouraged to focus on DPS. If you are in a group all working on exactly the same quest then everyone in the group will finish the quest at a different rate. Remember how frustrating it is in the past when you're in a group and everyone has their 10 boar tusks but you only found 5? Now it'll be frustrating for everyone in your group to have their 15 orc kills done for the quest while you're still at 5.

  23. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxjenius View Post
    As usual, a few complain on the forums, which to them means "most players" have a problem with something.
    A few complain on the forums, but thousands are moaning like hell about it in game! Just because you have no idea what other players are saying you come out with this comment? I wrote a complaint on the forum, I am one person, but I am reporting about what over a hundred of my kinsmen are complaining about. Would you prefer I got them all to write individual complaints for you? A hundred "+1"s satisfy you or do they each need to be worded differently?

    A commonly agreed sentiment of almost all the players I have spoken to in game about this affects fellowship play is that WAI should not be used, the commonly agreed on phrase is FUBAR!
    Last edited by podgie_bear; Oct 16 2012 at 05:34 PM.

  24. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by SungXe View Post
    Anyway there is a reason it's only applied to ROHAN.
    Yes, at least part of the reason is that backward compatibility is a pain in the neck. I think most people are concerned about a broken mechanic trickling down into further expansions, not Rohan per se.
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  25. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rippentuck View Post
    Once again, because obviously some people here are just not getting it: Players in groups ARE contributing, using the various skills that their class uses, but they are NOT getting any xp or loot for having done so, unless they simply hit the mob. Obviously this raises issues for certain classes.

    If not a bug, then it's still a mystery as to why the devs apparently now think that mere damage to a mob (and damage only!) is the only legitimate form of contribution. Debuffs and CC (which some classes were designed to do) aren't contributions now? Melee and CC classes get no xp or loot if a hunter in their own group kills something from far away? Read all the problems that are now arising due to this change.

    It makes no sense at all, which is why many suspect that it's a bug.


    Rip
    Once again, I explicitly said the words, "in certain fashion." Learn to adapt to the new environment. It shouldn't even be that big a departure from normal play, considering it's landscape play. If your hunter is killing stuff before your burg can get even one hit on it, then debuffs and cc were going to be a waste of time anyways. If your fellowship's hunter kills something before the burg helps in any way, and the burg doesn't get a chance to help with that one monster, then one of these will follow:

    1. He then didn't get credit for whatever the burg was killing instead of helping him. Happiness is.
    2. He got credit for his solo kill and the burg's kill (or the burg in fact wasn't doing anything) and is now ahead of her by one, so
    ...a) he will stick around and help her and learn from this and let her get a hit on stuff so he doesn't have to wait as long, or
    ...b) he won't do that and his presence within the fellowship ought to be re-evaluated.

    If this isn't about quest/deed credit but is instead about loot, well... what can I say other than if the hunter was the only one who touched that monster, then why should the others in the group be entitled to any of the spoils? If the rest of the group doesn't like it, they do not have to keep playing with him.

    People will learn and adapt. The sky is not falling. This is the sort of thing that counts as 'change', and people don't like change despite being remarkably adaptable creatures. The more positive we keep our outlook on this, the happier we will all collectively be. So chin up; your smile will chase your storm away.
    Townsperson says, "I'm having an adventure. I've paddled all the way from Frogmorton!"

  26. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    I don't think that's an issue for most people. However if you are in a group you are actively being discouraged from using smart group skills and instead encouraged to focus on DPS. If you are in a group all working on exactly the same quest then everyone in the group will finish the quest at a different rate. Remember how frustrating it is in the past when you're in a group and everyone has their 10 boar tusks but you only found 5? Now it'll be frustrating for everyone in your group to have their 15 orc kills done for the quest while you're still at 5.
    The group aspect of open tapping that's discussed here just feels awfully out of place in LOTRO, where classes are acknowledged and expected to have multiple productive roles that do not involve DPS or healing.

    Instead it's something I would expect to see in a Diablo-style ARPG, where everyone gears up for damage+survivability and hacks away at everything that moves. I'd hate to see LOTRO gameplay reduced to this.
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

 

 
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