Forced emotes - worse than ever

[manstan]

So turbine have provided all players with the ability to force emotes on other players, with item and deed rewards and wording that tells you to go out an use it (even as above, telling you to use it on hobbits who are acting like hobbits). Add to that the fact that nobody that anyone knows of has been punished for simply using a forced emote (regardless of situation), and that no devs have replied to this thread.

If from that you think from that that Turbine's intended gameplay regarding forced emotes is still ambiguous, then you are ignorant and wrong.

And still if I hand you that gun with instructions on how to use it doesn't mean go shoot up the neighborhood. In my opinion you are just using that as an excuse to harass people. What it shows me is you have no consideration for your fellow players at all.

" After seeing RossMcColl2's attitude about forced emotes. Which amounts to:

Turbine made em, so I have to use them, even on strangers that do not like them being used on them.

I have changed my position from having a toggle, to a complete removal from the game. If we have people with zero courtesy and zero empathy in this game, that they will not even consider how others feel, then the emotes need to be removed completely, just on the off chance that a furture bug would allow thier wanton use on people in the future." SalionOfBrothers

So please RossMcColl2 keep right on arguing.

[Lestache]

And still if I hand you that gun with instructions on how to use it doesn't mean go shoot up the neighborhood. In my opinion you are just using that as an excuse to harass people. What it shows me is you have no consideration for your fellow players at all.

" After seeing RossMcColl2's attitude about forced emotes. Which amounts to:

Turbine made em, so I have to use them, even on strangers that do not like them being used on them.

I have changed my position from having a toggle, to a complete removal from the game. If we have people with zero courtesy and zero empathy in this game, that they will not even consider how others feel, then the emotes need to be removed completely, just on the off chance that a furture bug would allow thier wanton use on people in the future." SalionOfBrothers

So please RossMcColl2 keep right on arguing.

I understand the desire to use the gun metaphor, because most (hopefully all) of us are against wanton gun violence. I also understand that metaphors are designed to illustrate a similarity between two things and are not meant to be parsed and broken down for every little aspect that is different.

However, it's the very similarity that you're trying to illustrate that is where the metaphor breaks down, because there are indeed laws - very specifically worded laws - against using a gun to just randomly shoot strangers in public, and those laws are (mostly) enforced. There are "laws" in LOTRO as well, in the form of rules and guidelines that we're supposed to follow. Unfortunately, the only "law" that is being cited in regards to the festival skills is rather open to interpretation, and the interpretation of that law is done by Turbine, not us.

A Champ hitting Sprint to beat me to an ore node negatively affects and interferes with my gameplay, yet is highly unlikely to result in disciplinary action for that Champ, no matter how I feel about it. Conversely, someone saying hateful things to me in GLFF is probably going to face disciplinary action even if I don't report him. It doesn't matter if hateful tells and getting beaten to an ore node both make me feel abused or not - it only matters how Turbine (via a representative GM) interprets the rules and how they apply to that other person's actions.

Anecdotally, it appears that the use of festival skills, even in some of the most allegedly egregious examples, has not resulted in disciplinary action against the large majority of festival skill users. Thus, it seems safe to say that, even in spite of the lack of direct language stating it to be so, that the use of festival skills is - in Turbine's eyes - de facto within the rules, and the rules (and interpretation thereof) are not dependent on the feelings of the targets of the festival skills.

Odious as that may be to some, it seems pretty apparent to me.

By all means however, agitate for an opt-out so that you may better enjoy your LOTRO experience. I'm just commenting on the idea that people using the festival skills are somehow breaking the rules.

[Radhruin_EU]

Turbine's intended gameplay includes you receiving forced emotes from other players, regardless of situation.

Turbine's gameplay allows them to be used that way, to be sure. However, it doesn't follow that players are purposely intended and encouraged to use forced emotes 'regardless of situation'.

[Mark_J]

So turbine have provided all players with the ability to force emotes on other players, with item and deed rewards and wording that tells you to go out an use it (even as above, telling you to use it on hobbits who are acting like hobbits). Add to that the fact that nobody that anyone knows of has been punished for simply using a forced emote (regardless of situation), and that no devs have replied to this thread.

If from that you think from that that Turbine's intended gameplay regarding forced emotes is still ambiguous, then you are ignorant and wrong.

I'll take a stab at this.

Prospecting tools are in the game and designed to mine ore. Anyone can get them. Yet if a player follows another player around and 'steals' the node leaving the first player to fight the mob then the 'node stealer' is violating that golden rule number 1 and can be reported. A GM can and will take action against them. Why? Because they are disrupting the first player's game play.

A bow is in the game, a number of classes can get one too. Killing mobs with them is working as intended as far as Turbine is concerned. Yet if someone takes their bow and begins stealing kills from someone else they also can be reported and a GM can and will take action. Why? Because they are disrupting the first player's game play.

An axe is in the game....
A sword is in the game
Forced emotes are in the game....

[Defiant1]

Turbine's intended gameplay includes you receiving forced emotes from other players, regardless of situation.

So no, person A is not in violation of the rule. If anything you are the one breaking it as you aren't respecting them for playing the game as Turbine intended.

I can absolutely see why people don't agree with Turbine's intended gameplay in this instance, and support them with lobbying against them to change it.

But the "player As" are just following rule #1 and playing the game as Turbine intended, so do not deserve criticism.

I agree with everything you said. It is quite simple really. It's not violating the rules because Turbine created it and added it to the game. That doesn't mean that I'm against them changing it, it just is what it is. Emotes never bothered me much but I fully support a toggle for players because I see that it bothers people so. As far as making a general statement that any use of emotes is a violation, well that's just wrong (unless someone is stalking the same person over and over or something like that, but even then the cooldowns help in that respect).

[Vhivi]

Turbine's intended gameplay includes you receiving forced emotes from other players, regardless of situation.

This is known as grasping at straws. Read the rule again. If Player 'A' does something to Player 'B' that prevents Player 'B' from playing the game as Turbine intended, then Player 'A' is at fault.

For this to work the way you intend, Player 'B' would have to do something to Player 'A'. Player 'B' doesn't do anything to Player 'A'. Not acting as Player 'A' wanted is not doing something to Player 'A'. There is no way for Player 'B' to break this rule.

On the other hand, Player 'A', when using forced emotes, is capable of breaking the rule since they do something to Player 'B' that prevents Player 'B' from playing the game as intended by Turbine. e.g. if Player 'B' is dancing and Player 'A' knocks Player 'B' down with a forced emote, then Player 'B' is not able to dance ... as intended by Turbine's dance function.

[Defiant1]

Originally Posted by RossMcColl2
Turbine's intended gameplay includes you receiving forced emotes from other players, regardless of situation.

This is known as grasping at straws. Read the rule again. If Player 'A' does something to Player 'B' that prevents Player 'B' from playing the game as Turbine intended....

---playing the game as Turbine intended --- Exactly, emotes were put in the game for the purpose of being used on others. I don't see how stating a fact is "grasping at straws.''

Now having Turbine change the intent for emotes, that is something they can do, either by use of toggles, stating they should only be used in certain areas, etc. Once you have it explicitly stated how you can and can't use the emotes, then people can legitimately send in tickets against ''griefers'' so to speak. Again, I am in total support of those that want to be left alone, who don't want to be subjected to them to begin with. People just need to see the facts and then go from there. The first step could be having Turbine issue some guidelines perhaps.

[manstan]

Once everything is said and done, at the end of the day, only Turbine can settle any of this, and it appears they are quite disinclined to.
I really don't know which is worse, the emotes and the people who think they are entitled to use them with little regard for their fellow players.
Or turbine's complete lack of response about it.
There really is absolutely no reason for Turbine to have not addressed this issue long ago.


So all we can do is tolerate it in game, and gripe about it on the forum.

[Dworin]

Once everything is said and done, at the end of the day, only Turbine can settle any of this, and it appears they are quite disinclined to.
I really don't know which is worse, the emotes and the people who think they are entitled to use them with little regard for their fellow players.
Or turbine's complete lack of response about it.
There really is absolutely no reason for Turbine to have not addressed this issue long ago.


So all we can do is tolerate it in game, and gripe about it on the forum.

Agreed, with the exception that I have no problem, when I feel like it, to send the jerk a "Way to go! Welcome to ignore" /tell. And then, other than forced emotes, they cease to exist.

[Vhivi]

Originally Posted by RossMcColl2
Turbine's intended gameplay includes you receiving forced emotes from other players, regardless of situation.

No it does not. That is a foolish assertion.

---playing the game as Turbine intended --- Exactly, emotes were put in the game for the purpose of being used on others. I don't see how stating a fact is "grasping at straws.'' \

Using the /tell function is part of the game. Turbine's intention is for you to be able to send my character messages. So, by your logic, if you're sending my character messages, that means I am indebted to receive them and read them.

What's that you say? There's an /ignore feature for the /tell? Does that mean that you sending nasty messages should go unpunished because I can simply /ignore you? Tell that to the people who get banned from the game.

The entire game is there for "playing the game as Turbine intended". Turbine, however, cannot see, nor with code avoid, every usage players come up with how to use those game features. Thus the rule. That means it's possible for you to use forced emotes that is in violation of the rule. Not every instance, mind you, but it is possible.

[manstan]

Agreed, with the exception that I have no problem, when I feel like it, to send the jerk a "Way to go! Welcome to ignore" /tell. And then, other than forced emotes, they cease to exist.

That may make you feel better but it really accomplishes nothing, a fart in the wind.

[Defiant1]

Originally Posted by RossMcColl2
"Turbine's intended gameplay includes you receiving forced emotes from other players, regardless of situation."

No it does not. That is a foolish assertion.

It's foolish to think otherwise. What, Turbine implemented them for nobody to use? lol

Using the /tell function is part of the game. Turbine's intention is for you to be able to send my character messages. So, by your logic, if you're sending my character messages, that means I am indebted to receive them and read them.

What's that you say? There's an /ignore feature for the /tell? Does that mean that you sending nasty messages should go unpunished because I can simply /ignore you? Tell that to the people who get banned from the game.

The entire game is there for "playing the game as Turbine intended". Turbine, however, cannot see, nor with code avoid, every usage players come up with how to use those game features. Thus the rule. That means it's possible for you to used forced emotes that comes under violating the rule. Not every instance, mind you, but it is possible.

Don't understand why you're not getting this. We're not talking about someone, say, stalking a particular player to spam emotes over and over or something like that. I'm talking about the general use of emotes. I'm sorry but they are part of the game, how else did they get there? Pretty sure Turbine made it part of the game with no restrictions that I can tell (again, not counting someone stalking one person over and over). Bottom line is, some people are bothered by them even if they're not being harassed per se (like a random slap down), but if it makes them uncomfortable, then that's totally valid and Turbine should consider implementing restrictions on emotes or a toggle to turn them off.

[Vhivi]

It's foolish to think otherwise. What, Turbine implemented them for nobody to use? lol

Unless I missed an announcement, RossMcColl2 is not Turbine.

Don't understand why you're not getting this.

Because you're too busy talking and not taking the time to listen. Did I or did I not just post the line "Not every instance, mind you, but it is possible"? So you've tried to twist what I said to mean "Every instance of using forced emotes is a violation."

Like I said, you're not listening, because that's not what I said.

Bottom line is, some people are bothered by them even if they're not being harassed per se (like a random slap down), but if it makes them uncomfortable, then that's totally valid and Turbine should consider implementing restrictions on emotes or a toggle to turn them off.

That wasn't the recent discussion, though. I, too, am a proponent of the opt-out toggle. I like the "reflect" concept as well, but that's something Turbine will never do. I doubt that Turbine will ever implement an opt-out, either; they've invested far too much time and effort into the idea to scrap them, and the op-out will essentially scrap the idea

[manstan]

"the op-out will essentially scrap the idea" Vhivi

How so? It nether effects getting nor using emotes. They just wont effect people that don't want to be harassed.

Do you fish? Why not? With some of the arguments presented here you're supposed to. Turbine put fishing in the game for you to do, it is part of the game mechanics, so apparently you're supposed to be fishing.
Do you role play? Why not? Turbine built the game for role playing, it is part of the game mechanics, there is a chat channel specifically for it, so apparently you are supposed to be role playing.
Do you walk everywhere you go? Why not? Turbine gave you the option to walk everywhere, it's part of the game mechanic so apparently you are supposed to walk everywhere.
Do you jump off cliffs? Why not? Your character can jump, there are cliffs, it's part of the game mechanics, so apparently you are supposed to jump off cliffs.


Do I need to go on with this or was that sufficient to get my point across?

[maxjenius]

Note that I agreed that it is possible to accidentally use a forced emote if it is already present on a skill bar. But the question remains: What is it doing on the skill bar if it isn't there with the intent to use it?

Again, intent to use it ever does not mean each use is intentional. And note that I am not saying accidental use is rampant, or even common, just that it's possible. But as you (or someone) noted, accidental use is worth at least an "Oops," if not an outright apology. Another case where the effect (although not the use) is unintentional is for one of the AoE pranks and the player can't see another player is near enough to be affected. Again, not prevalent, not common, but possible.

If the forced emote actuators are not on the skill bar, then they won't be accidentally triggered.

Seriously? It's impossible to open an inventory bag and use the wrong item? What paragons of perfection you must play with.

[manstan]

Again, intent to use it ever does not mean each use is intentional. And note that I am not saying accidental use is rampant, or even common, just that it's possible. But as you (or someone) noted, accidental use is worth at least an "Oops," if not an outright apology. Another case where the effect (although not the use) is unintentional is for one of the AoE pranks and the player can't see another player is near enough to be affected. Again, not prevalent, not common, but possible.


Seriously? It's impossible to open an inventory bag and use the wrong item? What paragons of perfection you must play with.

Possible does not equal probably. Nothing is imposable, a lot of things are improbable. Both of your "not impossibles" are highly improbable. Considering you have to have some one targeted to not get a "you need a valid target" error, how do you accidentally target some one, then accidental set off an emote. This gets more improbably by the moment.

If I fire a shot gun in to a crowd no one accidentally gets hit, whether they are the target or not, I purposely fired the shot gun so it was no accident.

[Dworin]

That may make you feel better but it really accomplishes nothing, a fart in the wind.

Of course.

[Dworin]

It's foolish to think otherwise. What, Turbine implemented them for nobody to use? lol.

I love watching you folks trying to bend and twist the English language to defend the indefensible. It's already been shown that the forced emotes can be used without breaking rule number one: Using them on each other by mutual consent. But to paraphrase:

When you are playing the game (i.e. using forced emotes), you must respect my right to play and enjoy the game as Turbine intended (i.e. such as when I am using /dance). If you do anything that disrupts my enjoyment of the game (i.e. such as cast a forced emote on my character without my consent), you are in violation of rule number one, because you are not respecting my right to play and enjoy the game as Turbine intended.

The forums is a place to discuss things, so if you wish to continue your twisted logic and try to defend your indefensible poeition, please do so. I love a good laugh.

[Defiant1]

Unless I missed an announcement, RossMcColl2 is not Turbine.


Because you're too busy talking and not taking the time to listen. Did I or did I not just post the line "Not every instance, mind you, but it is possible"? So you've tried to twist what I said to mean "Every instance of using forced emotes is a violation."

Like I said, you're not listening, because that's not what I said.


That wasn't the recent discussion, though. I, too, am a proponent of the opt-out toggle. I like the "reflect" concept as well, but that's something Turbine will never do. I doubt that Turbine will ever implement an opt-out, either; they've invested far too much time and effort into the idea to scrap them, and the op-out will essentially scrap the idea

I don't know who RossMcColl2 is but what does he have to do with Turbine? You're not making sense. I'm saying that Turbine made the decision to create and implement emotes.

Perhaps you're the one not listening and you're actually doing more talking than me. The fact that you're accusing me of twisting your words.....*shakes head* lol

If you've misunderstood me before, I will try to be even more transparent. My point was simply that as of right now it's not against any ToS because Turbine hasn't outlawed them, in fact, they encourage them (look at the item descriptions). I am also for a toggle to allow people to turn them off. I'm talking in general when one is annoyed by someone, not the very worst instances of abuse. Bottom line is someone can bother you in-game with these emotes, say make you stop dancing and laugh because he/she's being a jerk, but they aren't violating anything in this current state. That's why I fell Turbine should act. I say all of this with no ill will toward anyone, I'm just perplexed that this concept is not understood.

[Defiant1]

I love watching you folks trying to bend and twist the English language to defend the indefensible. It's already been shown that the forced emotes can be used without breaking rule number one: Using them on each other by mutual consent. But to paraphrase:

When you are playing the game (i.e. using forced emotes), you must respect my right to play and enjoy the game as Turbine intended (i.e. such as when I am using /dance). If you do anything that disrupts my enjoyment of the game (i.e. such as cast a forced emote on my character without my consent), you are in violation of rule number one, because you are not respecting my right to play and enjoy the game as Turbine intended.

The forums is a place to discuss things, so if you wish to continue your twisted logic and try to defend your indefensible poeition, please do so. I love a good laugh.

You keep quoting Turbine's rules, exactly, guess what....Turbine makes the rules and they say that emotes can be used. As of now they don't consider it abuse in a general sense otherwise all of those tickets sent in about it would have been dealt with accordingly. So it's currently not against any ToS until Turbine shares your viewpoint about changing the fundamentals regarding emotes. Twisted English? I think not and there's no need for you to be so defensive and bothered by the facts. Again, I'm on your side regarding that something needs to be done, you're just shedding negative light on anyone that shares our viewpoint.

[Dworin]

IMy point was simply that as of right now it's not against any ToS because Turbine hasn't outlawed them, in fact, they encourage them (look at the item descriptions).

Let me apply some logic to your illogic and see if it helps.

Determination is a trait in the game collected by doing a deed, just as getting a deed for forced emotes. Now, one thing you can do to advance determination is to kill salamanders in Evendim. Can you advance determination by killing salamanders in Bree? Of course not, because to play the game, you have to go to Evendim to do so. That's a limitation placed on gaining the determination trait, even though it's in the game and Turbine has not removed it. It still has limitations. You have to go to Evendim if you want to kill salamanders for determination.

Forced emotes, by rule, also have limitations. You advance the deed by casting them on other players. But if you cast your forced emote on a player who does not want to be disrupted by you, you are in violation of rule number one.. In order to advance the deed and not be in violation of rule number one, you have to find someone who won't feel disrupted by your forced emote.

In the case of the determination trait, you are forced to obey the game's demands. In the case of the forced emotes, you should obey rule number one. If you won't, you'll likely find yourself on the receiving end of negative reaction even if you don't know it: people get put on ignore without being told so.

[Isilmacil]

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Skill:Practical_Joke

The picture there says it all. I will add that it would be nice if some animations overrode these festival item animations, however. For example, return music mode stance to the override list and add /dance and its variants. Heck, throw in crafting stances if they aren't already on the list.

Also please fix jar o' bugs if you haven't already. I only have a handful left and would dearly love my bag slot to be freed up. Kthx <3

Spot on in my books. The level that some are reacting to this whole forced emote is just...wow.

They're meant to be joke items/skills to liven things up. I always laugh if someone uses one of the festival items on me. And if I can I return the favour.

And I mean really, if you're doing a synchronized dance/band performance, it doesn't take long to get it started again. Not everyone is using these skills/items to be rude, or to be disruptive. So just have a laugh at it, and continue on.

[Dworin]

And I mean really, if you're doing a synchronized dance/band performance, it doesn't take long to get it started again. Not everyone is using these skills/items to be rude, or to be disruptive. So just have a laugh at it, and continue on.

Yet another exhibit for why those emotes should be tossed on the garbage heap of Turbine history. As a compromise, an opt-out would be really nice.

[whheydt]

Seriously? It's impossible to open an inventory bag and use the wrong item? What paragons of perfection you must play with.

It isn't impossible, but the probability of (a) opening the incorrect bag, (b) targeting an individual, and (c) *double* clicking on the wrong item is low enough that claiming it was an "accident" strains credulity. And, of course, it just "happens" to have occurred when the items in question weren't on cool down. Yeah, sure. Wanna buy a bridge over the East River? I just "happen" to have one for sale...

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[Dworin]

It isn't impossible, but the probability of (a) opening the incorrect bag, (b) targeting an individual, and (c) *double* clicking on the wrong item is low enough that claiming it was an "accident" strains credulity. And, of course, it just "happens" to have occurred when the items in question weren't on cool down. Yeah, sure. Wanna buy a bridge over the East River? I just "happen" to have one for sale...

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Hey! It could happen! *hand over mouth to muffle the snickering*