Update 9: Against the Shadow and the Rohan Instance cluster

[Beleg]

What? Seriously? Then, what part of the word "reward" are you not understanding?

I can tell you the so called "hardcore raiders" are probably one of the groups that care least for cosmetics, it´s about functionality, about making your character work better.

The harder a content is, the better the rewards should be. The more you do, the more you earn. Simple as that.

I was being a bit facetious, yeah.

Because not all raiders are after the challenge. Marginal improved rewards that have other uses outside the raid can draw new people into the pool of future raiders . Come for the shinies, stay for the fun!

True. The problem with Stealthy's "+5%" idea on T2 gear, is that it widens the gap even further between the casual players, and the hard-core raiders. That's not a good thing. It means that the content becomes either too hard for some, or too easy for others. Content that people can't (or won't want to) play means less content for everyone. Turbine needs to maintain a very tricky balance between the fun and challenge.

I proposed an idea for raid gear a while back that I think could address the problem. Instead of T2 raid gear making you better, it could make your fellowship better. So, instead of +X% to your stats, it could give +Y% to people in your fellowship (or raid). That would let more casual players participate more effectively in raids. And it would still let hard-core raiding groups have the same benefit - in raids.

But that gear wouldn't help players faceroll content outside of raids. That would make it easier for Turbine to keep the content challenging for most, but not impossible for many.

I don't want to derail this oh-so-interesting thread though - so if you want to read more about that suggestion, you can do so here: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?458892-A-Suggestion-for-Better-Gear-Itemization

[Stealthiness]

I was being a bit facetious, yeah.



True. The problem with Stealthy's "+5%" idea on T2 gear, is that it widens the gap even further between the casual players, and the hard-core raiders. That's not a good thing. It means that the content becomes either too hard for some, or too easy for others. Content that people can't (or won't want to) play means less content for everyone. Turbine needs to maintain a very tricky balance between the fun and challenge.

I proposed an idea for raid gear a while back that I think could address the problem. Instead of T2 raid gear making you better, it could make your fellowship better. So, instead of +X% to your stats, it could give +Y% to people in your fellowship (or raid). That would let more casual players participate more effectively in raids. And it would still let hard-core raiding groups have the same benefit - in raids.

But that gear wouldn't help players faceroll content outside of raids. That would make it easier for Turbine to keep the content challenging for most, but not impossible for many.

I don't want to derail this oh-so-interesting thread though - so if you want to read more about that suggestion, you can do so here: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?458892-A-Suggestion-for-Better-Gear-Itemization

Cosmetics. ..

I dont know of you are a hardcore raider but we dont generally group up with casual players for well. ...anything. hardcore raiders go for the best valabel in game and will not stop until they have that. When you think of it 5% is only 7 more on for example the main stat of the Hytbold sets weve got now. Even less on all the side stats.

[Beleg]

Cosmetics. ..

Not sure what you're trying to say.

Anyway, my point is that raid gear should be roughly comparable to other top-end gear in the game (whether that's from crafting, questing, or PvP). I do think raid gear should be the best gear in the game (it is the hardest to earn). But, any extra advantages it has should only apply while raiding. I explain the idea in much more detail in that thread I linked.

I dont know of you are a hardcore raider but we dont generally group up with casual players for well. ...anything.

I doubt LotRO is the best game for you then. You might want to try RIFT, or WoW.

[Ferthcott]

Anyway, my point is that raid gear should be roughly comparable to other top-end gear in the game (whether that's from crafting, questing, or PvP). I do think raid gear should be the best gear in the game (it is the hardest to earn). But, any extra advantages it has should only apply while raiding

Oh, no need for that heavy - handed model - remember Rift sets? Or - to some smaller extent - OD minor bonuses? You can get good result with sets that are enhanced for specific type of content. Not to mention Rift did not have T2 that would have been additional reason to collect such set. More options available today.

Oh, and about T2 set you asked about: there is also T2C later on - so you actually have a content - related reason to introduce more powerful gear. (I am positively surprised no one jumped in with some "you don't need raid gear to raid" type of "wisdom" yet - perhaps usual suspects finally gave up on trying Saruman/FnF/Shadow T2C w/ crafted sets

Obviously, it would be nice if those sets were offering additional benefits in more than one instance per cluster. Even in some minor way, like OD set offering tiny benefit in debuff-heavy 3-6 mans. At least better than nothing.



I doubt many would really want to have another stat bloat RoI - style for the sake of reward...

[SoccerMike]

Great marketing plan by Turbine to be honest. The Hobbit comes out in 2 weeks. People not playing get excited and come try out LOTR. Spend 2 months grinding out for gear, weapons, and leveling just in time to play 4 new instances that are all being talked about in the new movie.

Just interesting all 4 that we have to wait on go with the Hobbit.

[Aedon]

Armor that is crafted should be more desirable. keep crafters working.

[Lohi]

I dont know of you are a hardcore raider but we dont generally group up with casual players for well. ...anything.

And yet this is one of the major things in this game that sets it apart from many other MMOs, and a big reason many players stuck around longer than usual or even got a lifetime sub. If you don't like rubbing shoulders with people you feel are beneath you then there are other games with much stricter class divides.

[Cindir]

And yet this is one of the major things in this game that sets it apart from many other MMOs, and a big reason many players stuck around longer than usual or even got a lifetime sub. If you don't like rubbing shoulders with people you feel are beneath you then there are other games with much stricter class divides.

I don't know - this sounds kind of judgmental. Why should he not be able to play the way he wants? If he only wants to group with experienced players for raids - that's his choice. I don't see anything elitist in his post. he did not say he doesn't interact with all types of players - just that he rarely groups with casual non-raiding players. If I had a good kin I might group mainly with them anyway.

[Lohi]

I don't see anything elitist in his post

First implying he only plays with people like him is not necessarily elitist but it does try to divide player base up into us versus them. Second he says he doesn't group with them for "... anything". That really does sound prejudiced or elitist. If he meant to say that he only groups up with his kin then he should have said so, with out the snarky attitude or ellipsis.

[luiprima]

Only 3 - 3 man instances
3 men instances = Need 1 tank (guard,warden) need 1 healer (minstrel,rk) need 1 random (prefer champ or cappy )
Only 1 slot for other classes champ-cappy-hunter-Lm-Burglar What will do players who has hunters, Lm, burglar ?

[Stealthiness]

Not sure what you're trying to say.

Anyway, my point is that raid gear should be roughly comparable to other top-end gear in the game (whether that's from crafting, questing, or PvP). I do think raid gear should be the best gear in the game (it is the hardest to earn). But, any extra advantages it has should only apply while raiding. I explain the idea in much more detail in that thread I linked.



I doubt LotRO is the best game for you then. You might want to try RIFT, or WoW.

I'm trying to say the people I raid with generally don't care about cosmetics.

And who are you to suggest I should be playing other games, LotRO is the perfect game because it offers challenging end game content

[Stealthiness]

First implying he only plays with people like him is not necessarily elitist but it does try to divide player base up into us versus them. Second he says he doesn't group with them for "... anything". That really does sound prejudiced or elitist. If he meant to say that he only groups up with his kin then he should have said so, with out the snarky attitude or ellipsis.

It seems someone didn't understand my post. I don't not group up with casual players because I think I'm better then them, I don't group up with them because I'm in a kin with friends who I play perfectly in sync with. There might be an underlying thought that all the pugs I've been in were somewhat slow and messy, but that's not the main reason.

[Stealthiness]

Only 3 - 3 man instances
3 men instances = Need 1 tank (guard,warden) need 1 healer (minstrel,rk) need 1 random (prefer champ or cappy )
Only 1 slot for other classes champ-cappy-hunter-Lm-Burglar What will do players who has hunters, Lm, burglar ?

3 man's are generally easily done with cappy as main healer and champ as tank, there's loads of possibilities here tbh, just gotta have the balls to try them out

[StrideColossus]

Only 3 - 3 man instances
3 men instances = Need 1 tank (guard,warden) need 1 healer (minstrel,rk) need 1 random (prefer champ or cappy )
Only 1 slot for other classes champ-cappy-hunter-Lm-Burglar What will do players who has hunters, Lm, burglar ?

It's probably a lot easier to do 3-mans with the traditional holy trinity, but it makes for a good challenge playing other classes.

There is quite a bit of overlap in the LOTRO classes: champs can tank a bit, ditto captains, hunters can do decent CC if you have no burg or LM, RKs can switch tactics easily, etc. Use these overlapping abilities with a bit of out-of-the-box thinking and any group with decent players should be able to deal with most 3-mans IMHO.

I've personally rarely had trouble getting groups as a burg, either with kinmates or PUGs. Very occasionally I've tried to group and be rebuffed by people who are fixated on having the 'perfect' 3-man group - their loss.

[Klaarg]

This week, Update 9 will go live on the Bullroarer test server. In addition to a number of bug fixes and updates, this update will also include the first half of the Rohan instance cluster. The second half of the cluster will be released in 2013.

When we made the decision to delay the release of the Rider’s of Rohan expansion, we also made it clear that we would still honor our commitment to release the instances this year. Because of the delay in shipping Rohan, development time for the year was obviously reduced. This left us two options; either delay the entire instance cluster until 2013, or release those instances we felt could be completed with the highest degree of polish in December and delay the others until they are ready (currently expected to be February). We’ve chosen to honor our commitment as best we can with the limited time remaining in 2012 while still insuring the highest quality possible.

We want to be very clear that if you purchase the Riders of Rohan expansion, the entire instance cluster is free. You will have access to all instances listed below released as Part I in Update 9 and Part II when it releases at no additional charge. As long as you’ve purchased Rohan, you’ll get all of the instances listed.

We also want to share with you the full plan for all seven instances.

Instances shipping with Update 9: Against the Shadow

Riders of Rohan Instances (Part 1):

• Iorbar’s Peak (Misty Mountains / Stone Giants-3-man)
• Webs of the Scuttledells (Mirkwood 3-man)
• Seat of the Great Goblin (Goblintown 3-man)

Shipping in 2013 (Currently Planned for February)
Riders of Rohan Instances (Part 2):

• The Bells of Dale (6-man)
• Flight to the Lonely Mountain (12-man; single boss)
• The Fires of Smaug (12-man; single boss)
• The Battle for Erebor (12-man; single boss)

Many of you have asked if we’ll ever see the Lonely Mountain. Hopefully this gives you the answer you were looking for.

The full release notes for Update 9: Against the Shadow will be available when Bullroarer goes live.

I understand trying to tie in some things with The Hobbit part 1 film release, but why bother calling it Riders Of Rohan instances, when it's not in or about Rohan? This seems a little like Taco Bell selling Southern Fried Chicken or Pizza Hut selling T-bone steaks or Fish & Chips... It makes no sense and obviously is already confusing people or in some cases, making them angry. I have to wonder if you've hired a bunch of the fired Wall Street execs to handle PR and release planning, because this makes no sense at all...

I think that rather than pushing my friends to get a VIP membership so we can play together more easily, I may just cut my losses, drop the VIP and start looking elsewhere for entertainment in gaming. This is starting to feel like EA and the nightmare it became, before I moved on...

[Cindir]

First implying he only plays with people like him is not necessarily elitist but it does try to divide player base up into us versus them. Second he says he doesn't group with them for "... anything". That really does sound prejudiced or elitist. If he meant to say that he only groups up with his kin then he should have said so, with out the snarky attitude or ellipsis.

No - he never said he never plays with other players. You just read that all in to it - but clearly he never said that. So with his few statements - we have nothing elitist and nothing about "looking down on other players" as you put into his words.

Perfect misquote here - underlined. Why not quote his whole sentence - oh, yeah then it doesn't say what you said.

[Beleg]

Great marketing plan by Turbine to be honest. The Hobbit comes out in 2 weeks. People not playing get excited and come try out LOTR. Spend 2 months grinding out for gear, weapons, and leveling just in time to play 4 new instances that are all being talked about in the new movie.

Just interesting all 4 that we have to wait on go with the Hobbit.

2 months? The new instances will be available at level 20. So new players will be able to do them in 2 days.

[Beleg]

No - he never said he never plays with other players. You just read that all in to it - but clearly he never said that. So with his few statements - we have nothing elitist and nothing about "looking down on other players" as you put into his words.

Perfect misquote here - underlined. Why not quote his whole sentence - oh, yeah then it doesn't say what you said.

His statement was: "I dont know of you are a hardcore raider but we dont generally group up with casual players for well. ...anything."

He's implying that hardcore raiders don't group with casual players at all. That's clearly wrong of course; I know many hard-core raiders who group with casual players a lot.

[Chris91]

His statement was: "I dont know of you are a hardcore raider but we dont generally group up with casual players for well. ...anything."

He's implying that hardcore raiders don't group with casual players at all. That's clearly wrong of course; I know many hard-core raiders who group with casual players a lot.

I don´t consider myself a hardcore raider. At least not when looking at the time I spend ingame, it´s not more than 1-2 or sometimes 3 evenings.

Still, I don´t group with players outside of my kin or friendlist at all. I´d rather log off and do something else than join some random run (that will probably wipe anyway).
The last time I did that was once this summer when I joined an Acid T1 run as a healer. I don´t know what they did, but the whole raid did less than 100k damage before the 1st adds came. Then everytime the acid rose 1 or 2 people died, needless to say that we ran out of rezzes by the time the boss was at 1 Million

After that I decided I´ll only play with players that know what they´re doing, I´m not interested in wiping in farm content.

[Tainted_Black]

After that I decided I´ll only play with players that know what they´re doing, I´m not interested in wiping in farm content.

And how on earth do you expect people to learn to do content if this is the attitude of experienced raiders?

I go out my way to help others complete stuff for the first time because when people learn tactics and take advice, it leads to a better chance that they will do the same for someone else and thus increasing the number of people who can complete whatever content is giving the problems. It doesn't matter to me if it's T1 or T2 or whatever... everyone has to start somewhere.
I'm sure you died a few times before you got things "On Farm".

[Chris2]

Start scaling the old instances before more players leave this game.

[NaughtyMistress]

And how on earth do you expect people to learn to do content if this is the attitude of experienced raiders?

I go out my way to help others complete stuff for the first time because when people learn tactics and take advice, it leads to a better chance that they will do the same for someone else and thus increasing the number of people who can complete whatever content is giving the problems. It doesn't matter to me if it's T1 or T2 or whatever... everyone has to start somewhere.
I'm sure you died a few times before you got things "On Farm".

You may as well say "there aren't enough people on to do a raid, so you solo players out there, yeah you, we need you to raid. How on earth do you expect people to be able to raid if you don't help?" You're asking someone to change their playstyle, so it would be ok to tell other playstyles to change as well, right?

While I respect everyone's ability to choose their own playstyle, my playstyle of choice is as an elitist raider. I don't like 'pointless' wiping. By pointless I mean people not potting, squishies standing in AOE zones, hunters pulling bosses with burnhot heartseeker, ect. Generally people not knowing the general mechanics of the game and their class, or not caring.

I will do runs with players who haven't completed that content previously, if they're good. I shouldn't have to teach someone their class though, or work harder because I'm carrying the other healer, or the champs aren't pulling adds off me or whatever. You're right, everyone does have to start somewhere. But I don't want to spend half of my time with players who are in the 'somewhere' part of that.

I will PuG when I'm very bored, and am in the mood to laugh it all off. With the exception of T1 skirmishes, I have NEVER been in a PuG that did well. And even T1 skirms aren't a safe bet.




I'm not really sure where all the hate came from, between playstyles. Hardcores, casuals and soloers all play the same game. There's not a damned thing wrong with any of them, it's just different styles and preferences. We need content for each type, and as for gear...we need gear based upon a effort-reward system. Even as an elitist, if I see a soloer wearing the best gear in the game and know he/she had to do multiple REALLY HARD solo instances to get it, I'm ok with that. As long as the effort required is on par with the effort required to do a hard 12 man raid.

If we could just get everyone to understand that everyone has a right to play their way, this would all go much smoother. Not everything has to be a super hard raid, and not everything has to be accessible to the solo player.


/end rant. Will go get caffiene and wake up now.

[NaughtyMistress]

Start scaling the old instances before more players leave this game.

Scaling old stuff won't keep me (or most of my kin) happy. We want new stuff. Old mechanics are just old. We've done it, we've beaten it, and we did it hundreds of times. Not excited about going back.

[daadkey]

Hopefully, this collection of instances will be the last of the old type. I appreciate that a few bones must be thrown to the Raiding Kins to keep them active but enough is enough. After more than a dozen years in MMO's I am so sick of instances/raids that cater to the "holy trinity". and to top it off, the raiding types are "glass half empty" players. No matter what the developers do with the 3/6/12 man format, it is never enough or good enough or tough enough or rewarding enough to satisfy this group. So, be done with them now and concentrate dev time on....

Open groups, raids and skirmishes. With RoR, Turbine introduced a marvelous new tool with Warsteeds and Open Grouping. I am extremely disappointed none of the new instance cluster will use that tech. For the foreseeable future the most challenging content us Warsteed devotees have to look forward to is Bugud, Bugud and more Bugud. There really should have been more in update 9 for the group that enthusiastically grasped the new tech and favors more challenges with it than the old old old musty rusty dusty outmoded "holy trinity" stuff.

Out with the old. In with the new.

[Lestache]

Hopefully, this collection of instances will be the last of the old type. I appreciate that a few bones must be thrown to the Raiding Kins to keep them active but enough is enough. After more than a dozen years in MMO's I am so sick of instances/raids that cater to the "holy trinity". and to top it off, the raiding types are "glass half empty" players. No matter what the developers do with the 3/6/12 man format, it is never enough or good enough or tough enough or rewarding enough to satisfy this group. So, be done with them now and concentrate dev time on....

Open groups, raids and skirmishes. With RoR, Turbine introduced a marvelous new tool with Warsteeds and Open Grouping. I am extremely disappointed none of the new instance cluster will use that tech. For the foreseeable future the most challenging content us Warsteed devotees have to look forward to is Bugud, Bugud and more Bugud. There really should have been more in update 9 for the group that enthusiastically grasped the new tech and favors more challenges with it than the old old old musty rusty dusty outmoded "holy trinity" stuff.

Out with the old. In with the new.

A lot of raiding kins were happy with the difficulty of OD and Orthanc. JWBarry designs some pretty good raids when he has the time to do so. Most of our complaints about the latest raids have been about itemization - either a complete lack of good rewards for certain classes, or rewards that weren't properly matched to difficulty (a problem that has existed since Moria, when Grand Stairs had the best rewards while being the easiest 6-man, and 16th Hall offered almost nothing worthwhile while being the 2nd hardest).

I'm glad that you enjoy Mounted Combat, but it's just not in a place yet that it'd even be possible to make challenging content based around it. All nine classes are basically DPS classes, so MC is basically just a zerg of people doing a bunch of damage and not worrying about anything else. Occasionally the person with aggro needs to run away for a few seconds, but as soon as the big bad mob gets dismounted it's little more than smacking one of our five attacks again until the thing dies (or occasionally just finishing it off with ranged auto-attacks whilst alt-tabbed and reading/doing something else).

If you're tired of the holy trinity, cool. But what you're asking for is to have instances based on what I guess we'd have to call the holy singularity, because they'd be based around a single archetype (DPS) rather than three.