What's normal, what's an exploit - item swapping for bonuses

[Curioser]

NOTE that this is directed at PVE. In PVP, no doubt it's useful to wait for cooldowns a few minutes between kills or hang around stacking bonuses between skills.

I have never used the system at all, I think it's silly to run around with a bags of old armor to prepare for a bonus. Most likely the time taken will reduce overall DPS anyway.

I play a hunter. A hunter is simple. It has logical skills for low mid and top levels. It has a great trait line that generates focus for smooth DPS output (the people who play a hunter and use Focus every third skill really have to be gimping their DPS, but that's a different issue no doubt).

Imagine the great hero jogging into battle - he stops to dress up in different armor and he uses a skill, he dresses up in another piece of armor and uses another skill, he stuffs both armors back in his backpack and pulls out a pocket item that he clicks and swaps out for his regular one - and while this happens, his party is slaying stuff around him, the moon rises, the seas rise, civilizations come and go and then he's ready! He is the sort to use a plugin to monitor his DPS and WOWSERS in the minute he actually hits something, he puts out such fabulous numbers that even the orcs weep and calls him king. He copies this number to his character bio and proceeds to call anyone a noob unless they can match his one-shot number.

Do you swap in gear? Is there any real need for that, given the level of difficulty encountered?

[maxjenius]

[...] Do you swap in gear? Is there any real need for that, given the level of difficulty encountered?

What does your post have to do with possible exploits?

And no, I don't bother swapping gear. Maybe if I were a raider I would.

[Nakiami]

(the people who play a hunter and use Focus every third skill really have to be gimping their DPS, but that's a different issue no doubt)

Do explain what this means.

[ShireDweller]

I usually carry a cloak that reduces frost damage; that's handy in Forochel and in the snowy part outside of Moria. I switch to it when needed. Not much else, though.

[Gylve]

It's only an exploit when it's clearly not working as intended. An example of this is, after RoI launched and champs had been totally revamped, people were exploiting the OD armor bonus (+some % auto attack damage while Flurry is up) by putting it on, then activating Fervour stance (which gives permanent Flurry if traited) then swapping to their regular armor. The bonus, which is clearly meant to be temporary, was being abused.

Swapping in stuff for temporary bonuses seems fine, though. Cappy buffs on swap weapons, swap weapon for champ sprint, etc.

[Curioser]

What does your post have to do with possible exploits?

And no, I don't bother swapping gear. Maybe if I were a raider I would.

Oh haha = ) Sorry - it was a discussion in the game about what was a must to be ELITE (some kin recruitment message went from bad to worse) - I wasn't very clear, was I? Typical for me, I'm afraid.

It was indeed in the context of a raid or skraid.

Exploits I guess would be my own view of stacking effects with some more or less dodgy process. Now and then we see the effect of countermeasures such as cooldowns on various gear, so a few times it has been considered exploits. It is a strong word, perhaps I should have titled it "is gear-swapping considered normal" or something like that.

**

EDIT

...focus every third skill...

Do explain what this means.

Sorry I mentioned it at all - when I ran with other hunters and they used focus every few shots instead of a focus-generating skill rotation+ precision stance, it appeared they certainly did some DPS but not constantly. They could rotate 3 x Focus before I used mine for the first time. Often there will be built-in lulls but not always, just seemed to me they did less damage over time.

It's not a discussion about skill rotation, it's about swapping in an armor set or certain items for one bonus. It seems to be counter-productive to take the time to do it and to me it looks like an exploit: an unintended effect or shortcut exploited by the specific gamer to get a bonus that was never intended.

[SabrielofLorien]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean in the way of exploit here...

I play a LM. I carry multiple staffs and books. I have them with different stats/legacies and damage types. I change them out depending on what I'm fighting. Orcs get one staff-set, the Dead get another.

There are some items that when you activate them give you a bonus. Mostly I forget to activate them, so while i have them, I rarely remember to use them "in time of need".

I don't really use much more than 1 set now. I'm under-level and under-geared and under-traited for anything remotely interesting/challenging and I long ago dropped off the list of "eligible" for anything on the elite side of things.

I have heard of "exploits" in the past re something burglars did in the moors but I really don't know what it was they were doing.

[maxjenius]

Oh haha = ) Sorry - it was a discussion in the game about what was a must to be ELITE (some kin recruitment message went from bad to worse) - I wasn't very clear, was I? Typical for me, I'm afraid. It was indeed in the context of a raid or skraid.

Exploits I guess would be my own view of stacking effects with some more or less dodgy process. Now and then we see the effect of countermeasures such as cooldowns on various gear, so a few times it has been considered exploits. It is a strong word, perhaps I should have titled it "is gear-swapping considered normal" or something like that.

Swapping gear is not an exploit in the technical computer game sense, so probably not the best word to use, unless there's a situation where there is supposed to be some kind of gear-swap cooldown and someone's found a way 'round that.

I can only guess that gear-swapping is normal for raiders because in a raid, every advantage counts. Since I only play landscape (and the various "forced" instances), I just pick a set of gear and leave it at that 'cause your character doesn't have to be anything even close to optimally tuned for landscape.

[Curioser]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean in the way of exploit here...

I play a LM. I carry multiple staffs and books. I have them with different stats/legacies and damage types. I change them out depending on what I'm fighting. Orcs get one staff-set, the Dead get another.

There are some items that when you activate them give you a bonus. Mostly I forget to activate them, so while i have them, I rarely remember to use them "in time of need".

I don't really use much more than 1 set now. I'm under-level and under-geared and under-traited for anything remotely interesting/challenging and I long ago dropped off the list of "eligible" for anything on the elite side of things.

I have heard of "exploits" in the past re something burglars did in the moors but I really don't know what it was they were doing.

I mean where you use an extra item for a moment to get a bonus to a skill or stat or whatever and that this is the only function for the item - it can be designed for cap 50 65 75 and used at 85 only for that bonus - not to use as actual gear situationally.

[Nakiami]

Sorry I mentioned it at all - when I ran with other hunters and they used focus every few shots instead of a focus-generating skill rotation+ precision stance, it appeared they certainly did some DPS but not constantly. They could rotate 3 x Focus before I used mine for the first time. Often there will be built-in lulls but not always, just seemed to me they did less damage over time.

I don't understand. What's the difference between spending focus "every few shots" and a rotation that includes focus builders and focus spenders?

[Calta]

I'll swap weapons occasionally from dps sword to heal sword and back. My heal sword is mostly good for rally and triumphant spirit cooldown legacies-it does no damage, virtually, so it makes sense to click to the other for self protection. My 75 second age has piercing cry maxed so the stun is useful to deal with adds. I'll also use it to temporarily increase damage when full heals aren't needed.

I swapped mid fight a bit with jewellery until i'd completed crafting all my teal (eomer?) stuff. The bonus from using the anduin menders bauble was useful for extra urgent heals and the set bonus was nice, but i liked the base stats on some other higher level dropped jewellery better. As i was still wearing the earring, i'd click the anduin ring and bauble in a short heavy healing part of fight to get the instant plus. Don't really need to, now i've got my crafted stuff finished, but it was useful then.

When i was levelling, I used to have a nice stealth cloak I'd swap out of, if it got a bit rough once i'd sneaked inside a camp...

Don't know anyone who swaps full armour sets, except if they are trying out new combinations. Sometimes people just forget to get changed from PVP gear or from what they prefer to wear while soloing and then realise mid fight. I have tried fighting with my fishing rod in landscape. Kinnie did it in skraid, once. That involved a very quick swap. Don't think that's what you meant tho'

[Curioser]

I don't understand. What's the difference between spending focus "every few shots" and a rotation that includes focus builders and focus spenders?

Please stop the off-topic? Focuse is not a skill that deals damage, it takes x time away from damage dealing as opposed to swift. FOCUS every time cd is up and strength of the earth every time cooldown timer is done removes a significant chunk of damage when I use it. I'm sure others have different experiences.

Now, please - start a topic about it or leave it be = )

[Curioser]

-

Yes = ) Interesting to hear the bonus was enough to be worth it mid-fight on every mob. Perhaps to me as a lazy hunter they just died too quickly anyway. Using optimal gear is one thing (not that I have any, haha!) and stacking effects is another.

That darned fishing rod - once started a turtle with it equipped, happily it's not the bow that is removed even if it stops some other skills.


EDIT I can't seem to +rep all of you taking the time to reply - so I'll say THANK YOU and /hug

[kmcferrin]

I don't understand. What's the difference between spending focus "every few shots" and a rotation that includes focus builders and focus spenders?

Yeah, I don't get it. There's a stance that generates focus in addition to the usual focus-generating attacks. Then there's two skills (only one usable in combat) that take you to full focus. Then there are potions of focus that will add 6 focus when consumed in combat. So if I'm about to take on a Elite or Nemesis and I need super DPS, I'll go to full focus, drop a Heart-Seeker, then three Penetrating Shots, then go to full focus via skill again, then three more Penetrating Shots, then a potion of focus, followed by two more Penetrating Shots. Maybe you're seeing something like that?

[RJFerret]

First, an exploit is taking advantage of something unintended. Set bonuses are obviously intended, so swapping gear to get those is just an available option in the game.

Is it non-RP to be able to swap armour on the fly? Yes. So is swimming in armour yet the game permits it.

As for whether your swapping will increase or decrease your DPS, parse your DPS to find out and you'll have your answer! I would suggest if you are clicking your skills and swapping lotsa' pieces one at a time, you'll significantly drop your DPS. If you have a mouse or keyboard or software macro that swaps it all with one button push, you'll find benefit.

It's not a subjective issue, it's a choice that may be made based on objective data. Note, certain classes are effectively required to swap gear, the design of captain's for example necessitates it.

An extension of this is swapping traits, does it make sense that we can go to a bard, unlearn an aspect of us that came from our parents/trainer, just because the adventure we go on now has a certain damage type that a different skill set would be better for? Such is the nature of the game. Heck, they were even lauding the new mounted combat system for being able to swap in the field, not just traits, but you magically turn your light steed into a heavy with shift-M!



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

[Bezmer]

Is it non-RP to be able to swap armour on the fly? Yes. So is swimming in armour yet the game permits it.

Swapping gear has nothing to do with RP. It may be related to realism, but that's a different discussion altogether.

Case in point here is that by being able to instantaneously swap armour, you pretty much don't have to make decisions about gear bonuses, because you can have your cake and eat it too. The whole point of gear itemization is to decide on tradeoffs. Want to deal more damage? Sure, but you may have to give up some of that toughness -- and if you're able to swap back into the "toughness gear" the second things start getting hairy, the whole decision aspect is elliminated.

It's definitely not an exploit, but I find it an undesirable game mechanic, and poor game design overall -- and this is really not related to whether it's realistic or not.

[Nakiami]

Focuse is not a skill that deals damage, it takes x time away from damage dealing as opposed to swift. FOCUS every time cd is up and strength of the earth every time cooldown timer is done removes a significant chunk of damage when I use it. I'm sure others have different experiences.

This is as good a place as any.

We seem to have a difference in terms. Focus is what is built by induction skills (Swift Bow, Barbed Arrow) and others, and is what is spent by Fast skills like Penetrating Shot or Blood Arrow. If you are not spending your focus, you are doing something extremely wrong. And Swift Bow has a 10s cooldown usually, so you can't exactly spam it.
The skill Focus should be used just before entering combat, but can't be used in combat. So I still don't know what you mean by focus. Maybe Intent Concentration? which I think is good for 3-4 Penetrating Shots immediately after IC. But yes, using Strength of the Earth when you don't need the power or morale would lessen DPS.

[moduz]

Because the OP has failed to explain what he means, allow me:
Do you think it is an exploit that people are using macros to repeatedly swap out entire sets you gear to reduce the cooldowns in their dps rotations during combat. I'm not talking about captains swapping weapons or LM swapping books. I'm talking about things like hunters changing all of their gear to the faron set every time they cast penetrating shot or blood arrow and then changing back to hytbold-bowmaster set to cast swift bow. Since they aren't manually clicking the items, there is no delay. I seriously doubt the developers had this in mind when they designed these sets.
Fortunately it has a very simple fix:
Stop allowing players to change gear during combat (weapons and LIs should still be allowed).

[lbcadden3]

Please stop the off-topic? Focuse is not a skill that deals damage, it takes x time away from damage dealing as opposed to swift. FOCUS every time cd is up and strength of the earth every time cooldown timer is done removes a significant chunk of damage when I use it. I'm sure others have different experiences.

Now, please - start a topic about it or leave it be = )

You brought it up in the original post. Anything mentioned in the op is absolutely fair game to be discussed in this thread.

[Curioser]

Because the OP has failed to explain what he means, allow me:
Do you think it is an exploit that people are using macros to repeatedly swap out entire sets you gear to reduce the cooldowns in their dps rotations during combat. I'm not talking about captains swapping weapons or LM swapping books. I'm talking about things like hunters changing all of their gear to the faron set every time they cast penetrating shot or blood arrow and then changing back to hytbold-bowmaster set to cast swift bow. Since they aren't manually clicking the items, there is no delay. I seriously doubt the developers had this in mind when they designed these sets.
Fortunately it has a very simple fix:
Stop allowing players to change gear during combat (weapons and LIs should still be allowed).

Ah yes, bugging in a Faron with a macro. Thanks.

@ nakiami, seriously, start a topic on that. I've done countless of grouping for stuff like Limlight past few months - about every other time there's a hunter hanging back to be able to use the skill Focus instead of a focus-generating skill rotation that also deals damage. I promise you I'm not making this up =) I'm a bit of a noob but I deal damage and I know where I have my interrupts and corruption removals even if I don't swap in gear or spend all my free time here. Send me a PM if you must continue?

You brought it up in the original post. Anything mentioned in the op is absolutely fair game to be discussed in this thread.

Eh I asked him specifically three times now I think, he could just take the hint.

[Ailedra]

Fortunately it has a very simple fix:
Stop allowing players to change gear during combat (weapons and LIs should still be allowed).

Honestly, it never occurred to me to even TRY swapping armor in combat (other games had always taught me not to even try it).

How odd that LOTRO lets you do it. Weapons, hand-carried items (I'd count pocket items), sure....swapping out a breastplate in combat? How bizarre.

[cossieuk]

@ nakiami, seriously, start a topic on that. I've done countless of grouping for stuff like Limlight past few months - about every other time there's a hunter hanging back to be able to use the skill Focus instead of a focus-generating skill rotation that also deals damage. I promise you I'm not making this up =) I'm a bit of a noob but I deal damage and I know where I have my interrupts and corruption removals even if I don't swap in gear or spend all my free time here. Send me a PM if you must continue?

The reason people like to use that skill to generate focus is it gives you a 25% crit chance and +25% bow crit multiplier for 5 seconds on top of your normal crit chance, giving you potentially 50% crit chance at the start of a fight. I can often take over 7K of a mob using this and improved penetrating shot and the start of fights

[stubing]

It's not a problem. If Blizzard thought it was an exploit they would have made it so you can't switch gear in combat or have a cool down on gear switching in combat.

[Lothirieth]

How odd that LOTRO lets you do it. Weapons, hand-carried items (I'd count pocket items), sure....swapping out a breastplate in combat? How bizarre.

Not bizarre when your old minstrel set bonus gives full fellowship call-to-greatness. The example of a hunter switching out gear sets according to which skill they're going to use seems a bit much, but not something to be of such great concern that everyone should be barred from switching.. in my opinon.

[Guhrasoh]

If Blizzard thought it was an exploit they would have made it so you can't switch gear in combat or have a cool down on gear switching in combat.

Blizzard? Wrong game my friend.