Talvi-Muri, or LOTRO's tribute to Game of Thrones

[grazyzerofun]

What about Pynti Peldot? Doesn't seem to match anything I'm familiar with.

How about this: Pyynti-Pellot? Atleast that's how I imagine it. You got animals everywhere and it's a pretty open landscape. It even translates to Hunting Fields.

Also, lol'd at all your Finns account names.

[Edrogar]

What I'm wondering is if you ever thought of trying to find a Finnish language expert - possibly a native speaker - to read the list of location names et cetera and get some feedback of whether the chosen "base words" were anywhere near the correct translations?

Why would they?

This is not a matter of translating English into Finnish so that Finnish people can read it, it's a made up language that has used Finnish spelling as a base, it's its own language and in its own language is spelled correctly.

For example Estonian is a very similar language to Finnish (they are both members of the Finnic group of the Uralic family of languages), but you wouldn't get a Finnish expert in to correct their words would you?

[Elaida]

What about Pynti Peldot? Doesn't seem to match anything I'm familiar with.

It could be a reference to "riistapelto". A remote field where people grow cabbages, rapeseed, oat, rye and other similar products and leave it all unharvested to allow animals to eat during winter. You're right though; it doesn't really match into any Finnish term that would be actually used. I didn't think of that one - it's been a long time since I visited Forochel the last time...

Though, it can also refer to "hunting grounds" or "hunting area", for which the translation would be "metsästysmaat". That's very far from what we're seeing in Forochel. "Pyynti" and "metsästys" are basically synonyms for "hunting", but the word used in Forochel is very rarely used. "Pyyntimaat" wouldn't work either, as it doesn't mean anything in this context; the term is real, but it's used mainly in statistics that list how much different countries are hunting or fishing specific animals. "Pyyntipellot" as a term doesn't exist at all.

So, we have one, perhaps two location names that do not really match to any Finnish terms that would be, or would have been, used by Finns. I can of course build any kind of strange compound words, but it doesn't give "lentojäniskoiramagneetti " any real meaning. (Well, that one could mean "a magnet that pulls in flying dogs that chase rabbits". Sounds reasonable enough?)

This is not a matter of translating English into Finnish so that Finnish people can read it, it's a made up language that has used Finnish spelling as a base, it's its own language and in its own language is spelled correctly.

You're missing the point. If probably 98% of the location names and other "Finnish-ish" terms are slight variations of actual, absolutely correct Finnish terms, why does this remaining 2% show up in completely different form that is very awkward considering the way how most of the terms have been created? Why wasn't the correct Finnish base term been used in the name of Kauppa-kohta, when those correct terms were used in nearly every other location?

It doesn't fit the theme, so to speak. It's not about spelling - if it was, I should be asking questions about most, if not all hyphens and missing double vowels in Forochel location names. I should also be asking a lot of questions about things written in English, even though that's not my native language and I'm far from perfect in it.

I'm asking the question you quoted because the whole latter half of the location name "Kauppa-kohta", as well as either the first half of, or the whole term, "Pynti-peldot" seems to be wrong, compared to other location names that are based on Finnish language.

[Blaize_EU]

Ok, this is for Urwendil (and anyone else who was interested )

Enedwaith place names and hobbit names translated:

Lhe lhechu (lle llechu) - Hiding/lurking place
Cartrev (cartref) - home
Pluvun Gwern (plufyn gwern) - closest translation I can manage is Alder feather - it's full of crebain anyway!
Gavar Cadlus (cadlys yr afr) - goat camp
Uch Cadlus (cadlys yr ych) - ox camp
Arianant - possibly silver stream, or maybe a rangerism
Maur Tulhau (tyllau mawr) - great/big holes
Khoblun Utot - coblyn is a goblin (or an elf!), I'm not at all sure what utot is or trying to be...
Colven-Unus (ynys colfen) - tree island
Gwal Draig - dragon lair
Sarf Cadlus (cadlys y sarff) - serpent camp
Pruv Cadlus - unsure what pruv might be - maybe pry (insect) or maybe prif (main/prinicpal)
Munudh Duv (mynydd du) - black mountain
Duv Corvan (corfan du) - mountain foot (but measurement rather than geographical)
Cartrev Maru (cartref y marw) - house of the dead
Fordh Maru (ffordd y marw) - way/road of the dead
Unig Pulh (pwll unig) - lonely pool
Galar Culch (cylch galar) - circle of sorrow/grief
Gwaed Brun (bryn gwaed) - blood hill
Lhaid Ogo - mud cave


Cornchuthur - Hornblower
Brocktull - Brockhole
Isbrun - Underhill
Gardhur - not sure but probably gardener
Balchtrod - Proudfoot
Madcorf - Goodbody
Turio - Burrows
Henbuch - Oldbuck


And how could I forget Draigoch.... (draig goch) - red dragon


Loose translations all, since some don't make much sense and have to be guessed at (much like the Finnish ) but hope that provides some entertainment for the polyglots and language enthusiasts on here!

[Gilean-EU]

It must be annoying having to wait for George RR Martin to get round to writing the last 2 books. On the plus side he has told the makers of the TV show (of which he is a executive producer) how the story ends just in case.

Yep, but I can manage it as now I know there is no-one who knows how the story continues any better than I do I hate spoilers, so before I had read all the books, I had to be careful when I surfed around the net or read some Facebook comments, because there's always people who like to spoil the story. So I thought once I have read it all, I don't have to worry about "being spoiled" anymore

That's the same reason I always turn all chat channels off in LOTRO when new Epic Book is released, and I try to concentrate on that first, and during that time I try not to read forums, or at least try to avoid all the discussions about the latest Epic Book... When I am done with the Epics, I can turn on the chat channels and read forums more freely again

[Edrogar]

You're missing the point. If probably 98% of the location names and other "Finnish-ish" terms are slight variations of actual, absolutely correct Finnish terms, why does this remaining 2% show up in completely different form that is very awkward considering the way how most of the terms have been created? Why wasn't the correct Finnish base term been used in the name of Kauppa-kohta, when those correct terms were used in nearly every other location?

It doesn't fit the theme, so to speak. It's not about spelling - if it was, I should be asking questions about most, if not all hyphens and missing double vowels in Forochel location names. I should also be asking a lot of questions about things written in English, even though that's not my native language and I'm far from perfect in it.

I'm asking the question you quoted because the whole latter half of the location name "Kauppa-kohta", as well as either the first half of, or the whole term, "Pynti-peldot" seems to be wrong, compared to other location names that are based on Finnish language.

No i'm not missing the point, i completely understand your point, what i am saying is your point is not a valid point. It's a made up language, it does not need to have a theme because it is made up, and really it doesn't matter or make a difference in the slightest because of that.

[Hellgato]

I'm asking the question you quoted because the whole latter half of the location name "Kauppa-kohta", as well as either the first half of, or the whole term, "Pynti-peldot" seems to be wrong, compared to other location names that are based on Finnish language.

It doesnt have to be proper Finnish because its not Finnish, even if some of the words are the same as Finnish, its a coincidence. Its Lossoth.

[Elaida]

It doesnt have to be proper Finnish because its not Finnish, even if some of the words are the same as Finnish, its a coincidence. Its Lossoth.

Are you serious? The fact that perhaps 98% of these "Lossoth" words are minor adjustments of exactly correct Finnish terms is a coincidence? Really?

Sorry, but I have my doubts about that. It's not just "some" words that are nearly or fully identical, but "nearly all" words. That would be one hell of a coincidence. Sort of a "once in the lifetime of the universe" coincidence, I'd say.

I guess it's up to Berephon to answer the question, which still lacks a response: Has the original intention been to use proper translations as base words when creating the language of the "Forochelians" or not?

[Ferthcott]

Main characters are all expendable but even so, you cannot be too sure if what supposeldy happens/happened did happen....

With the exception of Ned Stark - choosing Sean Bean pretty much sealed his fate. Imagine him coming back from the dead only to die again in the next episode.

[Fionnuala]

Are you serious? The fact that perhaps 98% of these "Lossoth" words are minor adjustments of exactly correct Finnish terms is a coincidence? Really?

Sorry, but I have my doubts about that. It's not just "some" words that are nearly or fully identical, but "nearly all" words. That would be one hell of a coincidence. Sort of a "once in the lifetime of the universe" coincidence, I'd say.

I guess it's up to Berephon to answer the question, which still lacks a response: Has the original intention been to use proper translations as base words when creating the language of the "Forochelians" or not?

I think the point is that you should stop thinking about it from an outside of Middle-earth perspective. Finnish doesn't exist in Middle-earth. Fins don't exist in Middle-earth. Lossoth do. Tolkien took a lot of inspiration from Finnish mythology and so it seems that Turbine thought it would be a fitting tribute to him to utilize the Finnish language when recreating a culture that Tolkien never fleshed out. But you must realize that while Turbine utilized the Finnish language, they are under no obligation to use proper translations or "get it right" because what they are actually creating is a fantasy culture.

[Rainith]

Why wasn't the correct Finnish base term been used in the name of Kauppa-kohta, when those correct terms were used in nearly every other location?

<inserts tongue firmly in cheek>

I believe it was done to mess with all the Finnish players. The Turbine devs have a long standing hatred and distrust of the Finns and this is simply their passive-aggressive way of causing them grief.

And look it is working.

<removes tongue from cheek>

As others have stated, I personally believe that you're reading a bit too much into it and seem to be taking it a bit too personally. Its a game, enjoy it.

[Elaida]

What the heck? I'm taking this "personally"? Well, now I am. It is time to be offended by these last two replies.

If I was reading "too much into it", I would be complaining because no words in Forochel language are exactly as they are in Finnish. Am I doing that? Have I really complained about the Forochel not being perfectly and flawlessly translated? Have I said I'm not enjoying the game because of the possible discrepancy within the wordings?

NO, I HAVE NOT!

Got that? I have asked a simple question, and that's it. I am asking what the developer's intention has been, and most of the further elaboration has been caused by OTHER POSTERS' obvious opinions that such question should have never been asked. Feel free to think whatever you want about it, but these last couple of posts are, in my opinion, directly attacking myself and thus I have a right to be offended by them.


--
I am sure you can see the difference in my writing style if you compare this post and the few others from me in this thread. I am no longer writing in friendly manner as I was before. You are now making a direct attack towards me, by basically pointing a finger at me and saying it's wrong to ask questions, or that the questions asked are wrong questions. I have absolutely no reason to be friendly anymore.

It's just weird. First everyone here at the forums cries and whines about devs not posting anything, and the next thing is crying and whining about questions that are asked from a dev. I will make a mental note to never, ever again elaborate any of my posts on these forums, because such follow-up posts are obviously being used as weapons to attack the poster, and not as tools for any kind of constructive discussion.

Yoi ichinichi o.
(Yes, I know, that "sentence" isn't really used by Japanese people. I obviously have to add this note inbefore someone decides to pick more nits.)

[q945]

[Armour]Cloak_of_Oncoming_Winter[/Armour]


WINTER IS COMING!

[Gilean-EU]

I think the point is that you should stop thinking about it from an outside of Middle-earth perspective. Finnish doesn't exist in Middle-earth. Fins don't exist in Middle-earth. Lossoth do. Tolkien took a lot of inspiration from Finnish mythology and so it seems that Turbine thought it would be a fitting tribute to him to utilize the Finnish language when recreating a culture that Tolkien never fleshed out. But you must realize that while Turbine utilized the Finnish language, they are under no obligation to use proper translations or "get it right" because what they are actually creating is a fantasy culture.

This. As for discussion about Kauppa-Kohta, my reaction (when I first saw the place) was only something like "ha, they have translated 'marketplace' literally word by word: market place = kauppa kohta". Yes, the right Finnish word for "marketplace" would be "tori" but so what. If anything, I was only proud as a Finn when I saw devs of my favourite game had chosen our language in a whole region in LOTRO, even if many words are only close to Finnish, not 100% correct Finnish. So Elaida, chill a bit okay? After all, it's not that serious, this is only a game

[Elaida]

Gilean-EU, fine, I will turn this around, as you obviously cannot understand that everyone has right to ask questions as they see fit.

What I'm going to say now, is that YOU are taking this thread way too personally and seriously, because you are continuing the assault started by other posters towards a player who is NOT taking the game seriously, but simply wants to hear the background behind the choice of those two location names.

If I am taking this seriously and am doing wrong in asking such question, YOU ARE EVEN WORSE, simply because you are making it personal (alongside others who have written similar posts) by trying to draw conclusions about my personality. To make things perfectly clear.


I do enjoy the game as it is.* I am NOT - I repeat - I am NOT taking the spelling seriously, nor are these translations game-breakers to me. My only intention is to ASK ONE FRIGGIN' QUESTION FROM A DEVELOPER, but you are continuosly bashing me because of what I have asked.

You have absolutely no right to bash me that way, especially by continuing to spread that false claim about the reason why you think I am asking the question. You are drawing that reason (taking things too seriously) out of thin air and it has no truth value.


Is that clear?

As the thread has gone into such personal arguments (including even a very clearly offensive and rude post directed specifically to me by certain person) instead of discussing about the actual topic of the thread, I expect this one will be swiftly locked. I thank you, in advance, for the great service to the community you have accomplished if that happens.




*) However, I am oviously no longer able to enjoy the atmosphere of the community around LotRO, especially ghere at the forums. It's quickly becoming way too offensive and begins to remind me of the communities around games that should never be mentioned...

[Urwendil]

​

Ok, this is for Urwendil (and anyone else who was interested )
<snip>

I hit the infamous "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Blaize_EU again." wall! Thank you very much
​

[Urwendil]

​
OK, with the hope of cooling it around a bit let me attempt to re-direct the subject to the language usage of LOTRO...

We have Finnish in Forochel (and a bit elsewhere), Welsh in Enedwaith, what else? We have also Khuzdulized Semitic in Moria! I'm no master of any Semitic language, unfortunately, but I have a degree of familiarity with Arabic and many place names in Moria are dead giveaways. Indeed, the inflexions are modified to fit the rules of Khuzdul, but the triconsonantal roots still speak for themselves

E.g. the first element in Katub-zahar (the ancient library of Moria) made me shout out (with joy ) when I first got there because KTB is the Arabic (also other Semitic languages?) root for a variety of verbs and nouns meaning "to write", "book", "scribe", "study" (as in the crafting station) etc. However, the plural form 'katub' comes from Khuzdul, not Arabic.

As a trained philologist I salute the ingenuity of Berephon and others

Now, who can come up with a "Moria Glossary" like those of Blaize_EU and Elaida?
​​

[Galadhloth]

​

I hit the infamous "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Blaize_EU again." wall! Thank you very much
​

It's ok, I gave her some! The Welsh is really interesting; it struck me when I got into Enedwaith that everything was in Welsh. Thanks, Blaize for going into detail! And the Arabic/Semitic linguistic roots in Moria is something I'd love to know more about.

(I'd also like to put a word in for the Classical Latin and Ancient Greek influences in Quenya; though that's more evident in the books than in LOTRO, where we don't meet too many High Elves running around at the end of the Third Age.)

[Blaize_EU]

Thank you and you're very welcome (although I am a her rather than a him ).

Would also be interested in the Moria translations, I'm ashamed to say I didn't realise they were based on an actual language and assumed Turbine had dredged them up from a Tolkien work I hadn't got my paws on yet!

[Galadhloth]

Thank you and you're very welcome (although I am a her rather than a him ).

Would also be interested in the Moria translations, I'm ashamed to say I didn't realise they were based on an actual language and assumed Turbine had dredged them up from a Tolkien work I hadn't got my paws on yet!

Oh no! Sorry about that! Fixed above, from one her to another. (We girls have to stick together! )

[Filosofi]

I just love random Finnish names they've given to the various people in LoTRO. For example, most of the dwarven names are Norse or at least Scandinavian, but in the Thorin's Hall is one guy called Heikki. That's a very common Finnish name. I giggled when I saw him first time. It's just like 4 brothers are named Bartholomew, Chadwick, Archibald and Bob. Just priceless.

But the leader of the Earthkin in Lone Lands just exploded my mind. He's called Kekkonen, who just happen to be the greatest president Finland ever had.

You can see that the Makers have showed such care and love for this game. I just love it and the community here. Please forgive that angry bir... err, guy from Finland, we just have tendency to become absolutely wacko during dark Finnish winters (must be all the wolves and polar bears in the streets stealing our kicksleds)...

I like Kauppa-Kohta, I think that it fits nicely among all the Heikkis and stuff. Afterall, this is indeed a game.



PS.
What a topic to start my forum career...
And please forgive me my slightly rusty English, it needs some polishing

[Lestache]

Gilean-EU, fine, I will turn this around, as you obviously cannot understand that everyone has right to ask questions as they see fit.

What I'm going to say now, is that YOU are taking this thread way too personally and seriously, because you are continuing the assault started by other posters towards a player who is NOT taking the game seriously, but simply wants to hear the background behind the choice of those two location names.

If I am taking this seriously and am doing wrong in asking such question, YOU ARE EVEN WORSE, simply because you are making it personal (alongside others who have written similar posts) by trying to draw conclusions about my personality. To make things perfectly clear.


I do enjoy the game as it is.* I am NOT - I repeat - I am NOT taking the spelling seriously, nor are these translations game-breakers to me. My only intention is to ASK ONE FRIGGIN' QUESTION FROM A DEVELOPER, but you are continuosly bashing me because of what I have asked.

You have absolutely no right to bash me that way, especially by continuing to spread that false claim about the reason why you think I am asking the question. You are drawing that reason (taking things too seriously) out of thin air and it has no truth value.


Is that clear?

As the thread has gone into such personal arguments (including even a very clearly offensive and rude post directed specifically to me by certain person) instead of discussing about the actual topic of the thread, I expect this one will be swiftly locked. I thank you, in advance, for the great service to the community you have accomplished if that happens.




*) However, I am oviously no longer able to enjoy the atmosphere of the community around LotRO, especially ghere at the forums. It's quickly becoming way too offensive and begins to remind me of the communities around games that should never be mentioned...

0.o

What question do you have that hasn't been answered? Berephon already stepped in to say that they did the best they could with whatever translation materials they had available, and that the translations wouldn't all be perfect. That seems to address the Kauppa-kohta issue, even though his post may have been made before your question.

What more do you want to hear beyond, "we did the best we could, considering that none of us speak a word of Finnish"?

(If your unanswered question is, "did you think of consulting a Finnish expert?", I'd say that the answer really doesn't matter - clearly Turbine didn't consult a Finnish expert. It hardly matters if they thought of doing so - if they didn't, you might be upset by that; if they did, you might be upset that they decided to not spend money on one. Money which, by the way, would've been spent solely to make sure that the place names written in a fake language matched up to the expectations of the most critical of native speakers of the real language the fake language is based on. For a game that clearly doesn't have a huge budget, that would've been a very frivolous expense.)

Feel free to ask your question. Ask it as many times as you like. I don't know what the single offensive and rude post was, but if a few people basically saying, "dude - relax" is enough to spur you to using large fonts, multiple colors, and all caps, maybe their advice isn't unwarranted.

[Berephon]

I just love random Finnish names they've given to the various people in LoTRO. For example, most of the dwarven names are Norse or at least Scandinavian, but in the Thorin's Hall is one guy called Heikki. That's a very common Finnish name. I giggled when I saw him first time. It's just like 4 brothers are named Bartholomew, Chadwick, Archibald and Bob. Just priceless.

But the leader of the Earthkin in Lone Lands just exploded my mind. He's called Kekkonen, who just happen to be the greatest president Finland ever had.

You can see that the Makers have showed such care and love for this game. I just love it and the community here. Please forgive that angry bir... err, guy from Finland, we just have tendency to become absolutely wacko during dark Finnish winters (must be all the wolves and polar bears in the streets stealing our kicksleds)...

I like Kauppa-Kohta, I think that it fits nicely among all the Heikkis and stuff. Afterall, this is indeed a game.



PS.
What a topic to start my forum career...
And please forgive me my slightly rusty English, it needs some polishing

To wit, I was also raked over the coals by a Finnish player back when Forochel came out for daring to use the name Kekkonen. He/she considered it demeaning to the memory of President Kekkonen....

[Berephon]

​
OK, with the hope of cooling it around a bit let me attempt to re-direct the subject to the language usage of LOTRO...

We have Finnish in Forochel (and a bit elsewhere), Welsh in Enedwaith, what else? We have also Khuzdulized Semitic in Moria! I'm no master of any Semitic language, unfortunately, but I have a degree of familiarity with Arabic and many place names in Moria are dead giveaways. Indeed, the inflexions are modified to fit the rules of Khuzdul, but the triconsonantal roots still speak for themselves

E.g. the first element in Katub-zahar (the ancient library of Moria) made me shout out (with joy ) when I first got there because KTB is the Arabic (also other Semitic languages?) root for a variety of verbs and nouns meaning "to write", "book", "scribe", "study" (as in the crafting station) etc. However, the plural form 'katub' comes from Khuzdul, not Arabic.​​

Your analysis of our pseudo-Khuzdûl is correct. We do use a triconsonantal root-form from an existing language (though we have opted not to reveal the exact language/dialect), and the word forms are taken from Tolkien's existing Khuzdûl (which was based on Hebrew as the root.)

While we don't have a lot of non-name words from multiple languages in use beyond Forochel and Dunland, we use Scots-Gaelic in Angmar, Uzbek for the Easterlings, Anglo-Saxon for Rohan (with a leaning towards Mercian, which Tolkien used), the Eglain, and Dale-men, and as we expand, we will choose other languages for roots as appropriate. Of course, Old Norse (modified to Old Gnutnish when we remember ) for dwarves, and Sindarin for Elves and Dúnedain.

[Dklundt]

On a somewhat related side-note:

I saw George R.R. Martin at the movie theatres when me and the Fiance went to go watch the Hobbit. He was going into the movie theatre just as we were. He walked by me as I was waiting for the Fiance to use the restroom. Although he went to see the Hobbit in 3D, we went and watched the regular version.

I about &&&& myself. The Fiance was mad her bladder decided it was time and missed seeing Mr. Martin.


Carry on.