Barad Guldur T2 Loot still bugged

[CaerArianrhod]

Turbine has this funny new[tm] lootsystem for instances. Many things has been said by the developer, how the roll works, how the system check if you got items and so on. But nothing from that, was has been said is working as intended.
We have done the Lieutenant on T2 and one of our minstrel recived two times the Epic Minstrel-Shild, one from each chest. As the Epic items are BoA, you can immagine how upsetting this was for everybody. Regardles the fact, according to to Devs, that this can not happen.

Nice Job Turbine!

PS: Yes, we bugged it. But if Turbine force me to read BS like facebook or twitter, if i want some information, i can put this bug here too.

[RockX]

Actually, so long as that was the Malledhrim shield you're referring to in both cases, that is currently Working as Intended.

You get a chance at the legendary item from the standard boss chest. You get an additional chance from the Challenge mode chest. The two chests do not really interact with one another at all -- they don't care what you got from something else.

While it's statistically highly unlikely to occur, it can happen.

[CaerArianrhod]

Actually, so long as that was the Malledhrim shield you're referring to in both cases, that is currently Working as Intended.

It was the Malledhrim shield. An even if you are the "Item-Dev", that this is WAI is strongly and only your opinion and not the players.

You get a chance at the legendary item from the standard boss chest. You get an additional chance from the Challenge mode chest. The two chests do not really interact with one another at all -- they don't care what you got from something else.

While it's statistically highly unlikely to occur, it can happen.

Another good example to not to trust any statistics. But here you can see, why so many of us would like the option to turn on the masterloot. This items are not an everyday drop and are BoA, and doing BG on T2 now is a long evening as you can not split the Instance without an ID. Therefor we ask you again to take a look at this please. You can be sure i'm aware what i'm asking with that. You will put some Incomparable items into the new raids and many players will go for that (also the 3 and 6-Man instances). That "statistically highly unlikely to occur" may turn into a "happens often" if more players are doing the instances.

However: Thank you for answering my OP.

[lioheart]

Actually, so long as that was the Malledhrim shield you're referring to in both cases, that is currently Working as Intended.

You get a chance at the legendary item from the standard boss chest. You get an additional chance from the Challenge mode chest. The two chests do not really interact with one another at all -- they don't care what you got from something else.

While it's statistically highly unlikely to occur, it can happen.

So what you are saying is if we get another yellow of same kind (not including jewelry because you can have 2 of each) it just goes to waste? Am I right? What a waste of an incomparable and a run. If so like you said, then get it fix before the new instances and scaled OD comes out.

Also another note: When you made incomparable jewelry, did you intended to give some classes 3 yellows and giving others only 2? because the incomparables are not unique, meaning classes with incomparable jewelry well have 2 yellow jewelry and another yellow making it 3. Sum up question is: Did you, as the item dev, intended to give some classes 3 yellows and some 2 yellows available to equip? And well they become unique to prevent this imbalance?

Also last personal question: Well there be any new incomparable gears that won't make a secret release like the Horse-lord bracelet did? Well at least a hint rather than full confirmation........

[Beastnas]

It sounds working as intended to me. Everyone has their own internal loot tables and rolls under the remote looting system. If your minstrel was "unlucky" enough to win just a single shield, you wouldn't have made this thread.

Is it a waste for the player who wins the second item? Sure. But not for the raid as a whole, they didn't win their own internal rolls for their own gold items.

[Laerien]

That's why a wise-loot-reward-system allows players to pick the unique items they want from a list and the minor stuff remains random.

Moreover, if they want, they can sell their rewards to other players. (this is too much asking).

[Thrabath]

You can never satisfy everyone with a loot system; I think the ideas behind the current incarnation are good ones;

The devs have also said they want to have more gold items and they will be released with new max-lvl clusters, I think in update 10.

And why do you want to know exactly what is ingame? Part of the fun for me is to discover great unknown rewards that are top-quality.

[Bhoris_they_spider]

So what you are saying is if we get another yellow of same kind (not including jewelry because you can have 2 of each) it just goes to waste? Am I right? What a waste of an incomparable and a run. If so like you said, then get it fix before the new instances and scaled OD comes out.

How is that a waste of a run? The minstrel got his shield, surely he/she should be happy. The minstrel getting 2 shields had no influence on the other people within the raid getting or not getting a yellow item? The fact that 2 dropped from the same boss is neither here nor there, its no different from someone running warg-pens and getting the same yellow item on consecutive runs. The chances are not likely but of course with RNG it is most certainly possible and will/has doubtless happened to some people.

I've got the cloak on my guardian from the scalled mirkwood cluster but I still run it for teals and to help kinnies. Would I be annoyed if I got another one? Not at all, I accept when I choose to do the instance that there is a chance I could get another cloak which would be vendored, the chance of me getting the other yellow (the ring) is zero... I know this when I enter the instance. I could get 5 cloaks in a row but from 1 type of instance or no cloaks in 1000 runs. None of these events wouldnt effect my odds of getting the other gold piece (ring) when I decide to run a corrsponding instance from the Ereobor cluster.

100% WAI and doesnt need to be changed

[Grimdi]

100% WAI and doesnt need to be changed

While it's WAI and completely fair (from a technical POV), these loot-spikes are extremely frustrating and in the long run demotivating. Personally I'd really prefer loot to be removed from instances completely and moved to a barter system gated by deeds. Make the amount of barter currency obtained from instance runs variable to account for luck (and IMO a cooldown factor to reduce repeated farming of single instances).

[mr_underfoot]

being a PUGger, i'd rather have one guy in my raid get two incomparable drops and have to waste one (while everyone else gets their own individual loot, btw) rather than have the masterlooter ninja all the good stuff for his/herself and his/her pals.

+1 vote for individual loot list

[Aohh]

you can immagine how upsetting this was for everybody.

Working as Intended.

Upsetting players:Working as Intended.
In one word: RNG

Gold items: I have seen them drop many a times, never in my bag.

[Egilric]

You can never satisfy everyone with a loot system; .

Yes you can.

Any loot roll will give a class/level (and in some cases build) specific bit of loot to ALL players.

That way we are not all rolling against one another, because we are all going to get something and we are only rolling against our own unique loot list.

Now, clearly such a system can only be used on "Boss Loot", not just random trash mobs.

But it is certainly possible.

Problem is it requires three things: 1) money and time, 2) Dev that know what they are doing and, most importantly of all 3) game development cycle that doesn't substitute rinse-repeat-same-old-content for what should be new content.

Any chance of these things happening?

No, of course not.

An even easier way to achieve the "satisfy all players" goal would be to do away with "gear drops" entirely. Make it so that everyone who loots the Boss Chests gets a set amount of some Token, then have vendors sell the gear for tokens. Have it possible to get higher toer gear by handing in token + previous tear gear.

LOTRO played with this mechanism in the Ox-Clan Merchant Camp in Nan Curunir. But as always with such companies they had far too values placed on those necklaces.

MMO's really need to wake up to the fact that player are less and less inclined to think that repeatathons are a substitute for new content. Of course the problem is always appeasing those who race to end-game as soon as possible.

Perhaps instead of biannual or annual major updates its time to consider a monthly mini-update. Where a new quest-chain (not a complete area) is released that permits slower progression to the new "cap".

Based on how fast we level at levels 0-30 it should be taking weeks of average play time to attain even one level at current level cap; instead we have people do it in a matter of hours.

What I think would be more sustainable in terms of level and gear progression would be for the next level cap increase to be tied to 2 things: 1) Major Expansion, that encompasses the theme and geography of the purpose of that expansion, but link that to 2) Several Minor Expansions.

For example. New expansion covers xyz area and 5 level on to level cap.
But that is delivered in several minor expansions.
The first includes enough quests, instances etc to achieve one new level (and that level is initially hard-capped). The instances and major quest chain resolutions reward varying amounts of XYZ Token. These can be traded for T1 gear within that expansion zone. Aim to have attaining that new level take between 2 and 4 weeks of average play time. This means well thought out and planned quest chains, as well as progressive (with permanent unlocks) instances.

Four to six weeks after mini expansion one goes live aim to release mini expansion two. Adds a further level to the level cap, unlocks tier 2 gear (which requires both Tier one gear and XYZ tokens.) and further instances.

The problem with both gear and content is that we attain the new "maximum" far too soon (Note: I said too soon, not too easily - they are not necessarily the same).

As the last "mini expansion" is released add in the new Raid Content, the gear from which would require Tier 5 gear from the previous expansions, XYZ Tokens, and XYZ Gold Tokens from the raid itself.

This method give EVERY player something for their effort EVERY time they engage with the new content.

I don't mind doing rinse-repeat content if I can see a clear route to the reward from doing so.

Random loot tables, in which I am rolling against 5 or 11 other players that may already have the loot they want, but who are still diminishing my chances of getting the loot I want doesn't seem to me to be anything like a clear route.

PS: Sorry that got to be such a long post; but it pulled together a lot of ideas I have had milling about for some time.

All The Best

[Souku]

the system is working as intended, it's just a really poorly designed system

[LadyMarisa]

being a PUGger, i'd rather have one guy in my raid get two incomparable drops and have to waste one (while everyone else gets their own individual loot, btw) rather than have the masterlooter ninja all the good stuff for his/herself and his/her pals.

+1 vote for individual loot list

Ditto.
I was in a skraid last week (PUG), where there was still Master Looter. The raid leader assigned himself something from the chest before anyone had a chance to /roll. I don't get to group much as it is, so I'm glad at least instances have individual loot because grouping is already frustrating enough.

[Saphiorin]

How is that a waste of a run? The minstrel got his shield, surely he/she should be happy. The minstrel getting 2 shields had no influence on the other people within the raid getting or not getting a yellow item?

Once upon the time the game was designed (WAI or not is not the point) for a community.
You really ask about influences on other raidmember?
As one member in a PUG i could understand your point. Nobody knows each other an will never be seen again.
But for all the people, who see the raid as one community (hope this is even the majority) it is a waste. The whole raid works for all items and from this point of view it is absolutly stupid to dispose some items just because the one who won it even had it before. In my opinion, sharing stuff i don't need for myself, is a major part of the communitylife.

It would be that much easyer, if BOA loot could be distributed by master loot or even better: If this loot could be traded between the raidmember (only between them) for a short period of time.

[LadyMarisa]

[snip]... or even better: If this loot could be traded between the raidmember (only between them) for a short period of time.

I'd be on board with this. I'm not in favor of Master Looter anything for PUGS, even raid sized PUGS.

However, make the BOA items in instances only become bound when you EXIT the instance. This way, people can do a really long raid (like BG), trade their loot at the end so duplicates can be shared, etc. Then when you leave, everything you looted there that should be bound, becomes bound to you. This would keep the intention of the loot but allow players to compensate for luck (or lack thereof) and may at times make everyone happy. I have no idea how hard this concept would be to implement but in theory I love it.

[RockX]

OK.

With how loot is currently implemented, there is no competing with anyone else for drops.
Now, I understand how it can suck to see multiple Gold-quality items go to the same player, only to be "wasted". The Remote Looting system is something which we're monitoring, and will grow and be adjusted, just like the rest of the game.

[LadyMarisa]

OK.

With how loot is currently implemented, there is no competing with anyone else for drops.
Now, I understand how it can suck to see multiple Gold-quality items go to the same player, only to be "wasted". The Remote Looting system is something which we're monitoring, and will grow and be adjusted, just like the rest of the game.

Thanks for the response. Is there any chance at getting an indication of the viability of my idea (my previous post)? I would never ask whether you'd use an idea, I just am curious as to how hard it would be to do, if that were an option you were to go with is all. =)

[Grimdoin_EU]

While not competing with anyone on rolls might be a good thing, clearing BG T2CM two times and only seeing an occasional Tarnished Symbol drop (which is hardly considered a toprated drop after the Durchest farm) for someone is rather frustrating as well. IMHO there should be some ties in the lootsystem to prevent an entire raid from feeling like they wasted an evening not gaining anything for anyone.

[Souku]

OK.

With how loot is currently implemented, there is no competing with anyone else for drops.
Now, I understand how it can suck to see multiple Gold-quality items go to the same player, only to be "wasted". The Remote Looting system is something which we're monitoring, and will grow and be adjusted, just like the rest of the game.

what you dont seem to grok is that "competing with others for drops" was never a problem in the first place.

[bastiat1]

I'm 90% confident that getting a gold from a chest is no better than a 1.3% chance. Getting two on successive roles is no better than a 1 in 6,000 proposition, which is also around the drop chance for a Horse-lords recipe from a random level 85 mob. Congrats on hitting the lottery. Condolences on the payout being zero.

[avengingbananaslug]

what you dont seem to grok is that "competing with others for drops" was never a problem in the first place.

Yes it really was if you pugged and had awful luck like me.

Of course, I still have awful luck. Ran 20+ Durchest farming runs pre-nerf and only got one symbol and crystal, so it really makes me not want to run anything. I'd much rather see a barter system for loot where you know exactly how many runs you need rather than constantly seeing other people get drops you know you will never get.

[LadyMarisa]

what you dont seem to grok is that "competing with others for drops" was never a problem in the first place.

That depends on how you look at it, or the situation really. If you're in a dedicated group, such as a kin or a quasi pug that is the same people over and over, it might not be. Typically though for most PUGs, it was. You might not see a single repeat player in each PUG, but each time if there was more than one of your class, you WOULD be competing for drops. Sometimes against the entire raid because some people will roll on items whether you (the general you, not Souku) think they should go for the item or not. And as was previously posted, sometimes you'd lose the competition for the drop before the roll even happens if the raid leader decided to circumvent rolling and just hand items to his friends before anyone /rolls. Granted I have not every single instance out there but for the ones where PUGS are viable, there very much was competition for drops.

[Baldornix]

what you dont seem to grok is that "competing with others for drops" was never a problem in the first place.

Open looting as it is currently implemented in BG is a good thing to avoid things like:
1. Closed kin-only grouping due to DKP earning, etc.
2. Limited class grouping (Please no more might classes in this group, eh)
3. Problems with master looting in Pugs (confusion, ninja's, raid locks)

[00CloughRN]

Why have a RNG at all. Particularly with very rare items statistical outliers are always a problem, its deeply unfair for those who are particularly unlucky.

Personally I hate chance based grind. I don't really get any joy from beating the odds, in fact the most positive emotion I associate with a random system is relief... I quite liked the Lv75 endgame, both the ToO armour and LL jewellry were a very predictable grind, whereas all this legendary quality gear is very disheartening. At least with a predictable grind, I have a sense of progress, anticipation and reward. Chance based, I'm never getting any closer.

All the tech is there to make the grind of legendary gear predictable, why not make it barter-able behind a deed gate, up the currency rewards and charge so it takes you roughly the same amount of time.

I can't say I've ever come across someone who likes really random drops. Does anyone?