Please stop saying the "Player Council" represents the playerbase.

[Thorwyn99]

Highly unlikely, it hasn't worked in any other MMO yet, they've all either ended up under the control of trolls (EVE's CSM is practically all members of GOON Squad, some of the worst trolls in internet history) or being completely ignored by the devs (a la SWG's player senate).

I have a feeling all will happen is they'll be given a hidden form and forum titles, all will be peachy for a couple of months, then they'll start receiving less and less communication from turbine, until eventually their hidden forum will just become a personal chat room with a few dust covered chairs where the blue names used to sit.

It might quite possibly turn out that way, but the council is a done thing so we can only wait and see while having fun debating on it.

My experience with eve is basically non existant but just from what i read didn't the council there turn around a few of the developers decisions ?

[Edrogar]

It might quite possibly turn out that way, but the council is a done thing so we can only wait and see while having fun debating on it.

My experience with eve is basically non existant but just from what i read didn't the council there turn around a few of the developers decisions ?

No, the player base changed their mind, TheMitani lied, cheated and took credit for the whole player bases efforts, the non-Goons on the CSM tried to stop him being such a jerk but it didn't work.

[Gorgonites]

Except you're missing an entirely critical aspect which invalidates this definition here: LEGITIMACYSomeone can only legitimately be described as 'representing ME' if I had some say in their achieving that status .. Turbine's appointing someone without consulting me means that person has no 'mandate' to speak on my behalf .. which, in the context we're discussing here is the only meaningful meaning of 'represent'.Thus those on the Player Council speak for themselves alone, they don't 'represent' anyone but themselves; if they happen to espouse things I or you believe in that's a happy coincidence, however we have no say in what they do or say (unlike elected politicians, workers councils, Trade Unions, etc), so they don't do it on 'out behalf'; aka. they don't 'represent' us.

Kerin my old friend, in general you are right. BUT i know the player who is in the Player Council representing Eldar very well....he asked on Kin-Forums if we have anything to mention to the Council - good and/or bad things. So, he dont wanna speak for his own - atleast he will do it on behalf of us, his kinnies.

[Catburg]

Well it's good to see that the innuendo playstyle is represented because when I read the list of council member names I fair spluttered my cornflakes. There were 2 character names on that list that are a bit dubious on the decency front (not saying which in public). Whilst the people concerned may be reasonable choices in themselves (I'm not aquainted with them so I don't know) I don't think it sends a good message to community. If you're going to publish people's names at least give a free name change to the dodgy ones. Re publishing names whilst I think there is a need for clarity, as in real people got chosen and how many, I don't think said publication will be much of a boon to those concerned, infact, it might end up something of a nightmare, hope not for their sakes.

Re the question of representation I rather think the members are there to "represent" playstyles and other parameters rather than other players. They were picked because of their differences and what they do in game and I'd rather they spoke for themselves than supposedly speaking for me. If the proportions of styles are about right I don't think it wants skewing by, for example, a RP predominant being heavily canvassed by a raider or raiders and then spouting forth a different point of view to their own. Speaking out for playstyles you aren't involved in rather negates the whole point of the group. That isn't to say I think it should turn into a war between factions just that people should stick to what their profile suggests unless in reality their playstyle changes. If council members circumstances or playstyles do significantly change then they should do the honourable thing and tender their resignations to allow new members on board.

[cossieuk]

It is impossible to create a council that represents everyone at the same time. If you have an elected council then the players that voted for those that didnt win are not represented.

What we dont know is how Turbine decided on the makeup of the council. For all we know they looked at their stats and they can see on 5% of players raid regularly so 5% of the council is raiders and 10% regularly PvMP so 10% of the council is PvMPers. If this is how they picked the council then it is representative of the player base but not of the individual.

(Note these figures are made up by me)

[trancejeremy]

The problem is the "player's council" only represents Turbine, not players.

It's like in an absolute monarchy, where the King appoints all his councilors and parliament. Is it within his right? Sure, that's why it's an absolute monarchy. But don't go calling it a council of the people or something like that, when they are all appointed by the King.

This is nothing but a PR stunt. A way to get Turbine in the news more, and to try to mollify people when the game gets worse. They can just trot out the Player's Council and say "They liked it", but of course, it will be nothing but a rubberstamp.

[Edrogar]

It is impossible to create a council that represents everyone at the same time. If you have an elected council then the players that voted for those that didnt win are not represented.

What we dont know is how Turbine decided on the makeup of the council. For all we know they looked at their stats and they can see on 5% of players raid regularly so 5% of the council is raiders and 10% regularly PvMP so 10% of the council is PvMPers. If this is how they picked the council then it is representative of the player base but not of the individual.

(Note these figures are made up by me)

Not really.. to start with if 5% of the council are raiders then that 5% are only representing 5% of the player base, because the player base is everyone, not just raiders. Plus by human nature everyone has different views and nobody's views are 100% the same as anybody else views, therefore each person is still only representing themselves and not the whole player base.

[BangoTwinkletoes]

To be fair the real issue here is not whether or not Turbine considers the PC as "representative" or whether the PC members will represent their own views or what they consider to be the views or others.

Rather it's how Turbine will manage the interaction with the PC.

For example consider the two scenarios:

1. Turbine asks the PC for their views on overall game strategy, direction, scope of new content, bias of group vs solo, approach to pvp etc etc.

2. Turbine asks the PC for their views as to which cosmetics should be in the spring sale.

What will be interesting to watch is for when PC members start to resign when they discover their views / opinions etc are not being considered / asked for or whether they will stay on as the status of being a PC member is more important.

We'll only know when Turbine publishes details of the consultations with the PC. Not sure they will do this as it will expose the PC for what it is - a sham. I also expect discussions between Turbine and the PC to be under an NDA to avoid members going public and complaining when the "trough of disillusionment" is reached.. (Gartner Hype Curves FTW).

[noniuss]

Some people just need something to whine about...
Seriously - why all the fuss about what the council is called and what particular wording is used in their description?
I mean, i don't care what Turbine calls them and how they describe them, what matters is that its a group of players that are employed by Turbine to (hopefully) help improve the game with constructive feedback and suggestions. However, since they are all actual, real players (i guess this comes as a surprise to you?), they can (and are) considered to be representing the playerbase...i mean - they definitely are representing something, and what else it could be if not the players? Anyway, like i stated before - it doesn't matter what is written in their "job description" - only thing that should and will matter is the effect and their work will cause with the game and we cant know the results of it, since it hasn't even started yet. Therefore, in my opinion, the whole thread is quite pointless and frankly looks like its made by someone holding a childish grudge about not being selected/given a chance to run for a position in player council.

[Zombielord]

Wow, Godwins law after only four pages ... *slow clap*


Back to topic:
The OP has a point there as the "but those people on the council are real players" holds little value here.

Why you ask? Well lets travel one year back to february 2012. Turbine gathered ideas from the players for new skills or improvements they wanted to see with RoR. All of a sudden we got this:
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...66#post6016066

A "player" suggested a truely bizzare skill ... and it almost made it into the game. I'm not saying I know everything, but I'ed really hate to see some weird changes added and *stay* in the game just because "a player council member suggested that"

[Damojo]

I also expect discussions between Turbine and the PC to be under an NDA to avoid members going public and complaining when the "trough of disillusionment" is reached.. (Gartner Hype Curves FTW).

I believe there are already plans for an NDA.

Not that it matters, the NDA will be broken within 30 minutes of any "private" discussion anyway. There's all the satellite forums, kinship forums, skype, chat servers...... all outside the scope of what Turbine can control. Which is another reason why there won't be any great insight or power granted to the council, because anything told to the council in confidence will be round half of the players, and posted on the 'net from "anonymous sources" within hours.

[K'Arian]

Having read page after page of comments I feel the need to add something here. I can't help but feel a little sorry for those chosen to be on the PC as they are already being faced with a lot of bad press. Whilst I realise it could happen, I chose to believe that those selected put their names forward or were nominated cause they actually give a &&&& about lotro and its playerbase instead of just wanting the title, only time will tell. And we can argue semantics until the ring reaches mordor but whether it is called PC or focus group is irrelevant unless the end result is something positive.

I personally only know one member of the council but that doesn't mean I feel any less represented by them. Now, if as a player with my own playstyle, I feel that the council does not listen or pay heed to my opinions, well then that is a different story. But who I am to judge them when I haven't as yet seen them in action?

I say good luck guys. I hope that something good will come of it as I love this game and only wish for better days ahead. My advice to those who do not feel represented is have your voice heard when the time and setting is right. If this fails then there is an issue to be addressed, but that time has not yet come. So why not give then a chance?

[Lobengulu]

Ok, firstly; You're wrong.

The Player Council IS representative of the Playerbase, why? Because the people on the council ARE players. Many of them pay subs.

They may be hand picked, but they're hand picked on the basis that they are trustworthy and helpful, critical people who won't just swing towards one opinion.

In fact, I don't understand what your point really is. Who cares if they're not elected by the people, for the people? The point is, they're players who play the game just like everyone else.

I didn't vote for the Conservative party in England but does that mean they don't represent me? No. Because they do.

Regarding your last paragraph, 1 Tory MP in Scotland, 2 Pandas. I voted for neither but I would rather have the Pandas

[Edegon]

Highly unlikely, it hasn't worked in any other MMO yet, they've all either ended up under the control of trolls (EVE's CSM is practically all members of GOON Squad, some of the worst trolls in internet history) or being completely ignored by the devs (a la SWG's player senate).

I have a feeling all will happen is they'll be given a hidden form and forum titles, all will be peachy for a couple of months, then they'll start receiving less and less communication from turbine, until eventually their hidden forum will just become a personal chat room with a few dust covered chairs where the blue names used to sit.

Haha... So true.
Player council does not change sub numbers, either does not change 6 years old game mechanics. Many parts of game mechanics are actually quite OK but artificial down time via grind is not. And it is been mentioned over and over many times on forums.

To me Happycamper looks like rebellion, as I used to be. Been flamed here and on suggestions forums, been flamed on Codemasters forums, when CM was looking after European servers.
He/she would love to play game but something holding back. Same thing here and I have given up, because those who been flaming me are actually most "suitable" for so called council. Those peoples will accept absolutely every thing, what Turbine throws at them.

So to me looks like Turbine want to create "happy pink cloud" illusion for them selves with council, that they are doing right thing with game development direction.

Come on folks (I mean Turbine), open your eyes, look around, see what other dev studios been doing, stop pushing your egoistic ideas. They are not selling. Council won't help you stop decreasing player base.
And that's what I'm thinking, what is going on. Player base reached to certain number and it triggered on panic mode "something must be done quickly".

Just a simple example, I have been playing WoW as subscribed player for 3.5 years, as we know, sub fee for both games is same. Both games expansions are not free. But I was playing WoW only when it reached certain criteria, AKA I accepted entire game mechanics. This game currently I do not want to play even for free. And that's why player base decreasing, because I'm not alone, many more peoples won't play this game even if it is free to play. It is the parts of game mechanics driving away players and council won't help you here either. Game has to change.

I have admit that F2P model is good, at least you are not trying sell UI elements for Turbine points. I'm considering storage, AKA bags are not UI parts. But selling everything for points is way too much, it is pay to win model.

I will give free hint, why WoW player base did exploded to 12 million at certain point. It was the flying mounts, peoples did not had dig trough tons of re-spawning trash mobs for 1 single quest item. But, first of all, this game engine does not support third axis, either flying mounts are "against lore", so enjoy your "council".

Sorry for my sarcasm, lately I have been trolling LOTRO forums without posting, many things what happening here making me laugh and it is more entertaining than playing game it's self. Rep Nazis, complains, bugs, pure fun.

As well, sorry for my English, it is not my primary language.

Edit: While I was typing, I got auto logged out from forums. Seriously, you (Turbine) looking for new players, while your forums are not functioning properly? Think again. Perhaps, instead creating council, you would try hire few peoples from player base, who would fix this endless beta forum.

[Snabur]

They choose a PvMP rank farmer, this council cant represent the amazing LOTRO comunity.

[Nymphonic]

Edit: While I was typing, I got auto logged out from forums. Seriously, you (Turbine) looking for new players, while your forums are not functioning properly? Think again. Perhaps, instead creating council, you would try hire few peoples from player base, who would fix this endless beta forum.

Oh man, this makes me so irritated.

[Baresira]

You know, I was gonna put all kinds of effort into a reply here. Arguing semantics and everything.

But, the best way to try and end this is to say this:

I do not recall an election when various people were 'selected' to the Council of Elrond.

And yet, the members of Elrond's council (outside of the fellowship) were viewed as being representative of the free peoples of Middle Earth.

If a council of this sort is good enough for Elrond, then it is good enough for me.

[lf2536]

to the OP, I guess there is something of a miscommunication between you and Turbine. you are taking the word "represents" to mean "represents me" like a congressman in the US or MP in Britain represent a constituency. I highly doubt this is what Turbine meant. what I suspect they meant is quite simply that it represents the makeup of the player base, X raiders, Y casuals, Z RPers in accordance with their relevant % in the general population of players. so does it represent you specificly? no, does it represent players? yes.

[LordVoronturEU]

Edit: While I was typing, I got auto logged out from forums. Seriously, you (Turbine) looking for new players, while your forums are not functioning properly? Think again. Perhaps, instead creating council, you would try hire few peoples from player base, who would fix this endless beta forum.

There is a forum rework in progress, hopefully it'll get here very soon indeed, and I sincerely hope it will resolve the issues surrounding being logged out at random among other things that desperately needs sorting out.
It is certainly very very annoying.

[Sapience]

A reminder to please not feed the trolls.