Petition to Turbine Exec Management - Protect our Leaderboards!

[shark1979]

/signed

[Yelloweyedemon]

I don't think its as much the leaderboards as much as the other information gathered for sites like altfinder where you can track peoples alts renames and transfers that violate players privacy...

If you wearing a bracelet and its hurting your hand, you take off the bracelet, you don't chop off your hand.

[Zanishi]

If you wearing a bracelet and its hurting your hand, you take off the bracelet, you don't chop off your hand.

Your absolutely right. And after I have looked I to it, it has become clear to me that losing the leaderboards is an unfortunate side effect of getting a new forum....

In truth these forums get a lot of complaints, from not keeping people logged in to losing g posts.... we asked for new ones and are losing the old ones.... but I still had this thought that maybe some how information. can be gathered through a plugin like pvmp+?

Then players could choose to participate or not....

[Sapience]

Yes I can admit my mistake. I do apologize for the tone of my comments regarding Sapience. In reality I have no idea what weights he is balancing. Please accept my apology to the community for the negative influence and to Sapience for speaking out of line.

Sincerely,

Ell

Didn't read the comment (you deleted it and rather than go back and read it I just let it stand unread), so I don't know what the apology is for. I'll skip past that to something worth mentioning, I didn't make the decisions about what stayed and what went. I did fight to keep elements or at least secure some assurances that some portions of the community sites that are being removed might, possibly, be restored at some point in the future.

Ah, I do have to ask... when was the vote and who voted? From reading the initial announcement thread, there was a ton of shock that multiple systems are going down (blogs, lorebook, leaderboards, data.lotro.com). This seems to have been quite a surprise to a lot of people.

There was no vote. There was a lengthy review of the community site, what worked, what didn't, what was fixable, what was not, and what was the most problematic system(s) and were they worth reinventing (as 'fixing' wasn't a viable option).

I may just be guessing wildly, but the closing of these services stinks, to me, of cutbacks in their budget and lay-offs at Turbine. The closing of various lower-priority services is a pretty obvious way to cut costs.

Again, might just be a conspiracy theory, but I think Turbine might be in a bit of financial trouble right now.

Unrelated. There are a lot of factors behind it, but none that you mentioned. Simply put there is much that is inherently unstable in some systems and there is no good 'fix'. Sometimes the only fix to a problem is removing the problem. Even if that's not the one you would prefer.

Ok I'll do it. I'll poke the white elephant in the room (one of them anyways) and ask.

So why is it the leader-boards have to be taken down?

Because the underlying system is going away. It's not a "hey let's remove leader-boards" decision. It's a "this thing is not working and not repairable and must go away. As a result, X, Y and Z will no longer function."

As for petitions, as I've mentioned before, you aren't actually posting a petition. You're posting a suggestion or opinion. Throwing a 'petition' in there is seen as a little bit of hyperbole. Once things are seen that way the general value of the thread is reduced and it's devalued by the reader. It actually makes it much more difficult for someone in my position to draw any attention to it for that reason. Simply put, trying to draw additional attention to something by the use of the word 'petition' has almost the exact opposite effect as you might think. You're doing more harm than good to the cause you're trying to draw attention to.

[Sezneg]

Informations

I guess at the end of the day, this is something that can improve server performance all around.

I'm sad to see the data go, though I can understand the reasoning here.

[grapez]

Because the underlying system is going away. It's not a "hey let's remove leader-boards" decision. It's a "this thing is not working and not repairable and must go away. As a result, X, Y and Z will no longer function."

Is there any chance the services that didnt work with the new system will be replaced and offer the same services, if you know what I mean?

[Mournsigh]

Hello Sapience.

I did fight to keep elements or at least secure some assurances that some portions of the community sites that are being removed might, possibly, be restored at some point in the future.

Would you mind at least confirming whether leaderboards are one of the portions you mention and if so when will we be able to get some indication of any ongoing progress in that portion's development?

And I'm really flabbergasted to read the following:

As for petitions, as I've mentioned before, you aren't actually posting a petition. You're posting a suggestion or opinion. Throwing a 'petition' in there is seen as a little bit of hyperbole. Once things are seen that way the general value of the thread is reduced and it's devalued by the reader. It actually makes it much more difficult for someone in my position to draw any attention to it for that reason. Simply put, trying to draw additional attention to something by the use of the word 'petition' has almost the exact opposite effect as you might think. You're doing more harm than good to the cause you're trying to draw attention to.

It's very interesting (and disheartening to say the least) to hear what you are saying regarding Turbine's completely idiosyncratic way of viewing the word petition and consequently anyone who employs the word on y/our forums- ouch! That's a bit high-handed. People are simply getting together in a standard way and signing a petition to ask for something: to, in this case, save our leaderboards in some way. The only Byzantine complexity being cultivated here is in the way (you tell us) Turbine reacts to the word "petition" itself and to the standard intention behind its utilisation. With respect that's not just weird, it's very dismissive. I know you'll say "I'm just telling you how we view the word petition and how using it won't make any difference and will actually worsen your cause" but please, thanks for the tip but don't expect us all to redefine our own - and the rest of humanity's- concepts of how petitions work, just because Turbine does! It shouldn't be "harmful" for people to respectfully convey a request either not to remove or to please replace an aspect of the game should it?

[Dinara]

I have felt for a while now that Turbine just wants our PvMP to "go away quietly" so they don't have to be bothered with it any more.
Then low and behold I read they are actually making another game that is PvP. http://www.infinitecrisis.com/en

Why are they doing this? Easy answer...Because they are not making enough money off of monster play. They want us to go purchase their new game and forget about this one.
Well, I like playing a monster, too bad they don't realize the potential this game has, or maybe because of the game rights with Saul Zantz Company they can't really fix it.

Either way, I'm not really sure I want to play their new game.

[Exion_Blade]

Because the underlying system is going away. It's not a "hey let's remove leader-boards" decision. It's a "this thing is not working and not repairable and must go away. As a result, X, Y and Z will no longer function."

I may not be a server techy but how exactly is it not working? What seems to be the problem(s)?

[avengingbananaslug]

Out of curiosity, how do the other games I've played manage to have working forums + leaderboards but LOTRO can only have 1 or the other?

[Qwyxzl]

Out of curiosity, how do the other games I've played manage to have working forums + leaderboards but LOTRO can only have 1 or the other?

I would guess that there were decisions made in the way back times in terms of data structures and or api that are problematic. And it is not that you cannot have both it is that turbine has made a business decision to not allocate the amount of resources that it would take to do a large redesign. Also with any large change in the codebase you introduce the possibility of even more errors/performance issues.

[Mystarr]

The leader boards foster a spirit of competition between players that is a very important part of PvP game play. On any given day, fights in the moors go back and forth, but the leaderboards allow players to track progress towards their long term goals compared to other players. This is a VERY important part of the motivation to participate in PvP.

I understand if you need to change the way this is currently handled, but please understand that removing this functionality with no plan to replace it is a HUGE blow to your PvMP game play. There are A LOT of things broken about PvMP in LOTRO but I would say this issue easily vaults to the top of the list of things I would like to see fixed in PvMP in LOTRO.

Its More important than a map.

Its More important than fixing the ridiculous imbalance of self healing in the moors.

Its More important than new skins or new skills.

Its More important than fixing the imbalances caused by dual boxing (and THAT has been my personal BIGGEST irritation in this game)

Its More important than fixing the irritating keep auto flips.

Its More important than removing the balance breaking outpost damage buffs.

ITS REALLY IMPORTANT! Please prioritize some way to return this functionality.

--------------------------------
I may be in the minority, but for my two cents worth its also more important than fixing the irritation of forum logouts. Why? Because I have learned to work around them by copying any post I am working on before I hit submit. If it doesn't really post I can just log back in and paste my work into a new post. By contrast, there is no work around for the complete removal of the leader board functionality.

[hucklebarry]

Out of curiosity, how do the other games I've played manage to have working forums + leaderboards but LOTRO can only have 1 or the other?

This is my basic question about a lot of things. What it boils down to for me is that LOTRO feels like an Indie game in contrast to the levels of features and support that others offer. I wouldn't mind this at all if the price matched an Indie price tag. I'm willing to accept months of broken features and instances, and less features, and more bugs... but only when this comes at a reduced cost.

So, I'm forced to reduce the cost myself via F2P, but I still can't help but notice that the VIP pricetag is competitive with other MMO's in ADDITION to the store prices sold along with the VIP pricing.

I fully understand removing features due to staff, budget, etc... but I don't understand the mindset that so many things are tossed up as "technically impossible" yet the cost to play stays the same and other companies in the same industry figure it out without issue.

[jfindlay]

I have felt for a while now that Turbine just wants our PvMP to "go away quietly" so they don't have to be bothered with it any more.
Then low and behold I read they are actually making another game that is PvP. http://www.infinitecrisis.com/en

Why are they doing this? Easy answer...Because they are not making enough money off of monster play. They want us to go purchase their new game and forget about this one.
Well, I like playing a monster, too bad they don't realize the potential this game has, or maybe because of the game rights with Saul Zantz Company they can't really fix it.

Either way, I'm not really sure I want to play their new game.

Totally agree with most of this, I see enough low ranks running around with bought skills to raise doubt on them not making enough money on monster play. Seems like there is a big rush to get to Mount doom so they can throw their hands up and say "we did it!" and then whatever happens, happens.

[Wartober]

The leader boards foster a spirit of competition between players that is a very important part of PvP game play. On any given day, fights in the moors go back and forth, but the leaderboards allow players to track progress towards their long term goals compared to other players. This is a VERY important part of the motivation to participate in PvP.

I understand if you need to change the way this is currently handled, but please understand that removing this functionality with no plan to replace it is a HUGE blow to your PvMP game play. There are A LOT of things broken about PvMP in LOTRO but I would say this issue easily vaults to the top of the list of things I would like to see fixed in PvMP in LOTRO.

Its More important than a map.

Its More important than fixing the ridiculous imbalance of self healing in the moors.

Its More important than new skins or new skills.

Its More important than fixing the imbalances caused by dual boxing (and THAT has been my personal BIGGEST irritation in this game)

Its More important than fixing the irritating keep auto flips.

Its More important than removing the balance breaking outpost damage buffs.

ITS REALLY IMPORTANT! Please prioritize some way to return this functionality.

--------------------------------
I may be in the minority, but for my two cents worth its also more important than fixing the irritation of forum logouts. Why? Because I have learned to work around them by copying any post I am working on before I hit submit. If it doesn't really post I can just log back in and paste my work into a new post. By contrast, there is no work around for the complete removal of the leader board functionality.

Then how did PVMP get by before leaderboards? IIRC leaderboards didn't start until Mirkwood and skirmishes... Certainly there were no leaderboards before Moria. So then it begs the question, if you think its so important, how'd they do it back then?

[aklouie]

Then how did PVMP get by before leaderboards? IIRC leaderboards didn't start until Mirkwood and skirmishes... Certainly there were no leaderboards before Moria. So then it begs the question, if you think its so important, how'd they do it back then?

Surugi stats started in january of 2009 drawing from the leaderboards weekly. We designed pvmpstats for daily shortly afterwards then it migrated to dailystats

[Almagnus1]

I too would love to see the PvMP leaderboards return in some fashion - if not on the site, hopefully in some sort of RESTful API/webservice that Surugi/Daily Stats can use, because I have gotten great value from all of the above throughout the years.

IMO, a leaderboard is essential for a healty PvMP atmosphere, and the loss of it will be to the detriment of the community - and for the chicken littles, the loss of the leaderboard is concrete proof that "LotRO is dying" (despite what other data may say).

[Kethean]

Petition signed...

[Beast_of_War]

Hmm.
I love the leaderboards, but it seems they are determined to scrap the old system.
I think it would be more effective to ask for the creation of a new leaderboard, rather than to preserve the existing one.
In either case,
/signed

[bob54650]

I have felt for a while now that Turbine just wants our PvMP to "go away quietly" so they don't have to be bothered with it any more.
Then low and behold I read they are actually making another game that is PvP. http://www.infinitecrisis.com/en

Why are they doing this? Easy answer...Because they are not making enough money off of monster play. They want us to go purchase their new game and forget about this one.
Well, I like playing a monster, too bad they don't realize the potential this game has, or maybe because of the game rights with Saul Zantz Company they can't really fix it.

Either way, I'm not really sure I want to play their new game.

After see how Turbine treats the PvMP community in this game, why would anyone ever play another Turbine game for PvP?

[CreepHiveMind]

Removal of the leaderboards will reduce a significant amount of lag.

[jennirich]

Removal of the leaderboards will reduce a significant amount of lag.

The leaderboards are down for months at a time on BW and BW still has constant lag.
If uploading to the boards every 5 minutes causes lag, why not update the boards every 6 hours/12 hours/24 hours instead? Anyway, it's not that people are going to miss the 5 minute play by play renown/infamy gains, it's that we'll miss the daily updates of yesterday's gains and the ranking of who's #1.

The mechanic can be implemented in the new forums. It seems that turbine would rather it didn't exist at all.

[Aelonaith]

/signed

[Aelonaith]

Removal of the leaderboards will reduce a significant amount of lag.

LoL
I just have to LOL hard for this quote

[87_Suited]

The leaderboards shall never be protected. Turbine is more interested in protecting multiboxing rank farmers.