No more Challenge on School of Tham Mirdain?

[Raven-EU]

there were way too many people abusing this exploit to ban them. i know on Arkenstone running it to get 33 seals per run became the "normal" way of running it. even pugs were running it this way. it really would not be in Turbine's best interest to ban half of the server. safety in numbers i guess.

I remember back in SoM. People exploited Sword Halls to get relics (I think it was). Suddenly you noticed that something was happening (it's scarry when you're in a real crowd and you get this feeling) and WHAM the server was very very quiet for a week. After two weeks there were more activity and after four weeks it was mostly business as usual.

Except...

Some kins had been almost completely wiped out. Kins that had abused this exploit a bit too much. I would assume that everything we do in-game leaves a log-trail about a mile wide...

P.s. this was when the European servers were run by CodeMasters.

[DelgonTheWise]

We don't want you to announce the exploit. We want you to announce when you close something because of an exploit so people don't go thinking the instance is bugged.

Totally agree. I'm mystified by the lack of communication. People who don't exploit should just run School, not get the seals, and be baffled and wondering what is wrong. This is the right approach how? I see not announcing before patching/disabling the challenge mode, but AFTER????

[Grimdi]

Totally agree. I'm mystified by the lack of communication. People who don't exploit should just run School, not get the seals, and be baffled and wondering what is wrong. This is the right approach how? I see not announcing before patching/disabling the challenge mode, but AFTER????

Normal mode of operation here unfortunately. Apparently it's against company rules to acknowledge that problems exist, wether it be expoits or mails with important information missing for some people.

[Isharra]

I dunno. They announced when they closed certain Hytbold instances. Even if they didn't explicitly say, "because people were exploiting," a heads-up that, "no, it is intentional that you can't get that quest, not a bug," would prevent a lot of headaches on both ends of things.

And for the person up-thread who says Turbine has to define an exploit...

4. While playing the Game or participating in related services, you may not exhibit or partake in behavior that is disruptive to the Game’s normal playability, causes grief or alarm to other players, or degrades the service performance or other players’ client software (for example, deliberately using game bugs or loopholes to disrupt the game or dropping excessive items).

That's from the code of conduct too. It's not an exhaustive definition, but the behaviour exhibited in the school clearly breaks this one. As also mentioned above, it explicitly breaks this one, too:

17. You will not exploit, distribute or publicly communicate any Game error, miscue or bug which gives an unintended advantage within the Game world. You may report bugs at lotrobugs@turbine.com. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it .

33 seals instead of 3 is pretty obviously an unintended advantage within the Game world.

To me, that's like taking money directly from the bank while playing Monopoly. What's the point of playing a game if you're going to play it like that?

[Frisco]

And for the person up-thread who says Turbine has to define an exploit...

It's not an exhaustive definition, but the behaviour exhibited in the school clearly breaks this one. As also mentioned above, it explicitly breaks this one, too:

I do not know what an exploit is in Lotro. Turbine has to publically define each exploit.

I think many people aim for plausible deniability--thinking that claiming to have been ignorant of what they're doing, however disingenuous, will save them from consequences. I haven't seen much evidence that it works in LOTRO, however. Some things are very clearly exploits--it's not necessary morally or legally for Turbine to spell them out before taking action against people who use them, no matter how fervently the perpetrator claims that "I didn't know that intentionally dropping group, going link dead, relogging, loading, playing dead, hiding out of LOS, then looting a chest in stealth was an exploit! (fictitious exploit, though I have no doubt someone will give it a go).

You do not have to put this kind of stuff in a user document. It is part of standard sinew for providing products and services. It is expected by customers. It is discussed the the regulatory and legal base for business activities as created by legislators, regulator bodies, courts.

Yes, it would be nice if a game didn't have exploits. But I'd rather developers spent their time doing productive things instead of spending hours trying to recreate the myriad ways hundreds of thousands of "creative" future users will try and break the game. So long as the content is playable without exploits, of course.

It is NOT something I expect, as a customer, for the company to spend time making sure that I cannot break their product if I deliberately set out to do so. That's just more Yulaspeak nonsense. I expect content to be playable for a reasonable proportion of time. I don't care if it's exploitable--I'm content to let the GMs enforce their policy on that. I do wish that there were an easier way for them to monitor exploits, so that content didn't have to be pulled down for a fix when too many people exploit, and that when stuff got pulled down there was an easier way to communicate than this jumble of a mess of forums, but Turbine being partly at fault doesn't make what the exploiters are doing any less wrong, or not punishable in the ways spelled out in the Terms of Service we all agree to.

If the Yula oversight is required for Turbine to provide an acceptable product that complies with customer expectations and the laws of the USA (Federal, State, Local) they should make me the ultimate decision maker immediately.

I don't claim to be a law expert, so could you cut and paste the relevant US laws that state that releasing a product that can be broken if the user is deliberately trying to break it (but works fine otherwise) is illegal? I'm a little skeptical, considering that claim comes directly after your claim to speak on behalf of all customers with regard to their expectations.

[edit: Aaaand, negative repped for my fictitious exploit, even after the disclaimer that it was fictitious. Apparently there's some fool out there who thinks that's an actual exploit AND who doesn't realize that reputation will be gone soon. Send me a tell, coward, if you think there's something wrong with my post.]

[Yula_the_Mighty]

I think many people aim for plausible deniability--thinking that claiming to have been ignorant of what they're doing, however disingenuous, will save them from consequences.

In order for a law to exist you need at least the following:

1) Publish the law so that we can know what is going on.
2) You need a method of detection.
3) You need people to find and bring in the suspect,
4) A method to convict the suspect.
5) You need people willing to convict.
6) You need an effective punishment that stings and deters the suspect from doing it.

You do have a low rate for step 3. You do not meet the requirements for step 5 or 6. You do not have a law.

In Lotro there are no exploits. Turbine has no catchers, no convicters and no punishment. Steps 3. 5 and 6 do not exist. Instead Turbine uses the following methods:

a) Do nothing.
b) Change the game software by turning off the content.
c) Change the game software to prevent players from using the software in an undesirable way.

There are non existent laws in the USA. The law is on the books. Nobody gets arrested. Nobody ends up in court. Nobody ends up convicted. Nobody ends up being punished. Once in a while, the law writers decide to shrink the size of the legal base by deleting the law because the government looks dumb in these kind of situations.

This is the standard "Talk is cheap" arguement. It does not matter what you say or write. It matters what you do. The reality is "What is done" not "What is said is written".

[Frisco]

In order for a law to exist you need at least the following:

1) Publish the law so that we can know what is going on.
2) You need a method of detection.
3) You need people to find and bring in the suspect,
4) A method to convict the suspect.
5) You need people willing to convict.
6) You need an effective punishment that stings and deters the suspect from doing it.

You do have a low rate for step 3. You do not meet the requirements for step 5 or 6. You do not have a law.

In Lotro there are no exploits. Turbine has no catchers, no convicters and no punishment. Steps 3. 5 and 6 do not exist. Instead Turbine uses the following methods:

a) Do nothing.
b) Change the game software by turning off the content.
c) Change the game software to prevent players from using the software in an undesirable way.

There are non existent laws in the USA. The law is on the books. Nobody gets arrested. Nobody ends up in court. Nobody ends up convicted. Nobody ends up being punished. Once in a while, the law writers decide to shrink the size of the legal base by deleting the law because the government looks dumb in these kind of situations.

This is the standard "Talk is cheap" arguement. It does not matter what you say or write. It matters what you do. The reality is "What is done" not "What is said is written".

Yula, you seem to go through a lot of words on your way to saying nothing at all. You are like the embodiment of a Red Herring (might I suggest an avatar change?).

Bottom line is, there are exploits, we agreed not to use them, and if we do, we are subject to the punishments outlined in the EULA. These rules are not Peter Pan fairies--they do not require Yula's belief in them to flutter around.

[Dmunney]

Bottom line is, there are exploits, we agreed not to use them, and if we do, we are subject to the punishments outlined in the EULA. These rules are not Peter Pan fairies--they do not require Yula's belief in them to flutter around.

Well here is the flaw in punishing some1 for what your calling exploiting....

Player A is lvling his 1st toon and gets to cap does school for the first time and gets 33 seals with his trio (thinking this is normal)...

Player B is a veteran and run s school with 2 kinmates and gets 33 seals (yes knowing this is 30 xtra seals)...

Both players have committed the SAME act 1 is an exploit and the other is not.

Turbine can NOT punish 1 person and not the other for the same action. One cannot PROVE that either player knowingly did something wrong (player B claims he thought they changed the instance)

So the idea turbine can "punish" or "ban" exploiters is at best UNrealistic so thats the end of that discussion...

QED

[Frisco]

Well here is the flaw in punishing some1 for what your calling exploiting....

Player A is lvling his 1st toon and gets to cap does school for the first time and gets 33 seals with his trio (thinking this is normal)...

Player B is a veteran and run s school with 2 kinmates and gets 33 seals (yes knowing this is 30 xtra seals)...

Both players have committed the SAME act 1 is an exploit and the other is not.

Turbine can NOT punish 1 person and not the other for the same action. One cannot PROVE that either player knowingly did something wrong (player B claims he thought they changed the instance)

So the idea turbine can "punish" or "ban" exploiters is at best UNrealistic so thats the end of that discussion...

QED

The only flaw is in your reasoning. It is an exploit in either case. Your explanation is like saying that two people were driving down the road at 100mph, but only one of them saw the speed limit 55 sign, therefore only one was speeding.

Some exploits are more of a gray area, but in this specific exploit, it is very clear that you're abusing a game mechanic.

Playing dumb won't help--you can be banned. Ignorance of the rules is not a valid defense.

Sorry to bring logic and reason into your "ended" discussion.

[Raven-EU]

Well here is the flaw in punishing some1 for what your calling exploiting....

Player A is lvling his 1st toon and gets to cap does school for the first time and gets 33 seals with his trio (thinking this is normal)...

Player B is a veteran and run s school with 2 kinmates and gets 33 seals (yes knowing this is 30 xtra seals)...

Both players have committed the SAME act 1 is an exploit and the other is not.

Turbine can NOT punish 1 person and not the other for the same action. One cannot PROVE that either player knowingly did something wrong (player B claims he thought they changed the instance)

So the idea turbine can "punish" or "ban" exploiters is at best UNrealistic so thats the end of that discussion...

QED

I would guess here that after looking at the server logs they will notice that Player A have triggered the exploit once while player B have 150 offences. Player A gets a mail warning him/her that exploiting may lead to a suspension. Player B gets perma-banned due to overwhelming evidence of exploiting.

QED?

[Nakiami]

Q.E.D. is an initialism of the Latin phrase quod erat demonstrandum, originating from the Greek analogous hóper édei deîxai (ὅπερ ἔδει δεῖξαι), meaning "which had to be demonstrated". The phrase is traditionally placed in its abbreviated form at the end of a mathematical proof or philosophical argument when what was specified in the enunciation — and in the setting-out — has been exactly restated as the conclusion of the demonstration. The abbreviation thus signals the completion of the proof.

[Frisco]

Oh, sure. I'm all for there being different levels of punishment for different offenses. But there's no way to perform the exploit in question without knowing that it is cheating. I wouldn't be surprised to see a ban on a first-time offense if someone reported the player. I don't know what their tracking mechanisms are, but I figure it would be harder to track someone doing it once than someone doing it for hours, given that the skirmish currency tracker is the biggest red flag.

Like the skirmish mark exploit, when people though they could get 1 MILLION marks in a day and go unnoticed. And yeah, plenty of first-time offenders got banned for that exploit.

[Fipiara]

Oh, sure. I'm all for there being different levels of punishment for different offenses. But there's no way to perform the exploit in question without knowing that it is cheating. I wouldn't be surprised to see a ban on a first-time offense if someone reported the player. I don't know what their tracking mechanisms are, but I figure it would be harder to track someone doing it once than someone doing it for hours, given that the skirmish currency tracker is the biggest red flag.

Like the skirmish mark exploit, when people though they could get 1 MILLION marks in a day and go unnoticed. And yeah, plenty of first-time offenders got banned for that exploit.

I still find it amazing when a player exploits something that is not only logged, but when the log and/or leaderboards are publicly available for anyone to see. With the school, more than anything I'm saddened by the sheer number of players exploiting the instance especially when they are players I know.

And as other have stated, there is a difference between a couple of times and players running dozens if not hundreds of runs and/or using mark tomes to increase your currency gains even further.

[DelgonTheWise]

Oh, sure. I'm all for there being different levels of punishment for different offenses. But there's no way to perform the exploit in question without knowing that it is cheating. I wouldn't be surprised to see a ban on a first-time offense if someone reported the player. I don't know what their tracking mechanisms are, but I figure it would be harder to track someone doing it once than someone doing it for hours, given that the skirmish currency tracker is the biggest red flag.

I don't even know what the current exploit is, have to say. But be aware that some exploiters REALLY are ignorant. My first runs of GS some years back I just went along with whatever people did and had absolutely no clue what was or wasn't kosher(this was my first MMO, and first time running grouped content). Truly. I was pretty naive. So initial warnings are probably the right thing...

[Frisco]

I don't even know what the current exploit is, have to say. But be aware that some exploiters REALLY are ignorant. My first runs of GS some years back I just went along with whatever people did and had absolutely no clue what was or wasn't kosher(this was my first MMO, and first time running grouped content). Truly. I was pretty naive. So initial warnings are probably the right thing...

Suffice to say, it would take a huge amount of ignorance to think that using the exploit in question was at all intended. So much so that to actually pull off the exploit, one would have to be intelligent enough to realize it was cheating.

[maartena]

I don't even know what the current exploit is, have to say. But be aware that some exploiters REALLY are ignorant. My first runs of GS some years back I just went along with whatever people did and had absolutely no clue what was or wasn't kosher(this was my first MMO, and first time running grouped content). Truly. I was pretty naive. So initial warnings are probably the right thing...

I agree... you are in a group with people, and there is always a guy with streetsmarts that knows a trick, and before you know it people comply because they don't know, and they get a whopping amount of seals. Is it really fair to those who run with an exploiter, but don't really know it is an exploit to get banned after they run it 3 or 4 times and then slowly start to figure out that there is something fishy about it? It's probably best to warn first.

This all said, the patch notes didn't say anything about school being fixed. Does anyone know it is?

[Sapience]

I agree... you are in a group with people, and there is always a guy with streetsmarts that knows a trick, and before you know it people comply because they don't know, and they get a whopping amount of seals. Is it really fair to those who run with an exploiter, but don't really know it is an exploit to get banned after they run it 3 or 4 times and then slowly start to figure out that there is something fishy about it? It's probably best to warn first.

This all said, the patch notes didn't say anything about school being fixed. Does anyone know it is?

For the most part exploits are painfully obvious. It's very hard to claim accidental exploiting or participation in it.

That said, yes this has been resolved and will be available to players with today's update.

[Blizzard12]

Both Turbine and players have responsibilities. The player has a responsibility to A: not exploit and B: to report the bug.

Turbine has the responsibility to create exploit-free content,warn and punish players who repeatedly exploit, and to close down

and fix the bugs quickly. I'd like to say there are people who could unintentionally exploit, I myself was one of the a few months

ago. After I hit lvl 85 I did school runs with some kinmates (no we did not exploit or else I'd have my FA's) I hardly know what a

seal was and didn't know how many I should get per instance.

Anyway this is all just my opinion, you're all entitled to your own.

[NukeTheLag]

Exploits used to bother me a lot when they meant cheating to make a boss fight easier or something similar. Now I couldn't care less. Since the game has just become mindless facerolls it really doesn't bother me if someone wants to get 33 seals in one school run instead of eleven school runs. Either way, this has nothing to do with skill, teamwork, etc. It is completely crazy that someone who does a T2C raid gets less seals than someone who runs a 5 minute Sambrog. Why should I care if someone got gear by running a trivial instance only 10 times instead of a hundred times? The bigger outrage is the person who gets gear because they got lucky with the RNG on a trash mob or a hobbit present. What about the person who couldn't play the game due to RL issues the week that people were farming Horse-lord recipes or T1 FA drops? That is a heckuva lot more unfair than the guy who only wants to waste 10 minutes of his life rather than two hours running a completely nerfed school for the 3,927th time.

The real exploitation is what Turbine has done to this game and to a long time loyal customer base. Given the current state of the game, if a few people managed to cut down on the mindless grind, then more power to them.

Also, how many times have people been cheated out of loot because, e.g., Draigoch bugs out or whatever. How much time do people waste in raids because people get booted from the game because of server side issues of one sort or another.

The bottom line is that Turbine doesn't exactly have clean hands if it wants to talk about unfairness with the loot in this game. Turbine has created a system that rewards people for repeatedly running the simplest content in the least amount of time and then is Shocked!, Shocked!, when people try to figure out ways to repeatedly run the simplest content in the least amount of time.