To the Player Council, What are you all doing lately? Updates?

[Fredelas]

Would I be correct to assume that most of the rank farming players see consists of a VIP freep killing a F2P reaver?

What if, instead of (or in addition to) the proposed rank requirement to earn renown from a kill, all newly created creeps get a 12-hour debuff (that counts down in played time) that prevents them from giving renown when they're killed?

Would rank farmers have the patience to keep their throwaway reavers logged in idly for 12 hours before they begin to farm them?

[Ailedra]

I'm a bit confused with this, so if i set up a macro with my G to make my 5 Icon warden combo in a button click that's ok ?
Or does that just mean the special features of the software are ok as long as i don't write my own macro with it ?

Generally in MMOs, the rule is "one input, one action". That's been the case explicitly in several games I've played, and seems to jive with what Sapience has been telling us.

So, every time you click a button or press a key, one character performs one action (no different than happens with a single client with normal keybinding...the keyboard registers the input, software outside the game client sends to the client, and the client interprets that keystroke and performs the action). For another action, you need another click.

So, for example, setting up a cycle of abilities that execute in order every time you click (as in, click 1, action 1 executes. On click 2, the macro moves to action 2) would be ok. Setting up 5 actions to execute when you click once is not.

This bears on multi-boxing as well. Using a keyclone to send one action to one client per user input is ok, and emulates noting more than what your keyboard/mouse already do outside the client....you simply have certain input sent to one client, others sent to others....FYI, this accounts for the vast majority of multi-box play, once you step outside forum sensationalism and hyperbole. A multi-boxer will have "1" execute a specific action on Client 1, Shift+1 execute a different action on Client 2, and so forth.

Using one key to send the same input to every client at the same time is a different case (I press "1", and 5 characters all execute the same ability), and may or may not be allowed, depending on the game.

I'll let Sapience clarify whether that concept is the case in LOTRO, if we haven't already overtried his patience on the whole topic.

[bohbashum]

Very nice post and straight to the point +1 for the ideas there all actually very well thought out.

While i cannot see Reavers being non free in the future, the fact R0 dropping zero renown would be a nice addition to all who play or wish to play creep, but it would be better if it went to r3 maybe? or the clubber would just club his freep a few ranks.

The cooldown on the deletion however is an excellent idea.

I dunno, I just feel so cruel to new players at times. it's 500 renown, for that short maybe 1hour that creeps feels like the community is nice to them and not blowing him up by throwing a banana at him or something stupid...

about the non-free Reaver... it still is a little confusing WHY they left reaver free but not the others. they were almost asking for cheaters to pop by. (not trying to say that it's only freeps that fight club, but a large migority is). if a creep is willing to pay ~£30 for all the F2P features to not need to pay a sub to play a creep, I'm sure another £1 or something low would be that much to promote better "sportsmanship" and exclude a portion of cheaters. maybe even give current players a tiny 100tp bonus for being "loyal to the battle against evil" so they can for it for free if people do go mental over the extra cost.

and I glad my little brain storm got something stuck on the wall XD

Would I be correct to assume that most of the rank farming players see consists of a VIP freep killing a F2P reaver?

What if, instead of (or in addition to) the proposed rank requirement to earn renown from a kill, all newly created creeps get a 12-hour debuff (that counts down in played time) that prevents them from giving renown when they're killed?

Would rank farmers have the patience to keep their throwaway reavers logged in idly for 12 hours before they begin to farm them?

they would just make more accounts. but it's much much harder to make another account than delete a toon and remake it. it would add another step to annoy and keep cheaters away from cheating.

most importantly, and sapience keep note. if you did something like that, it would be so much easier to see cheaters.
- freaver account gets logged on daily
- freaver gets farmed until low rating then deleted and remade
- look who is killing that reaver daily
- DING! you've got some nice evidence to point to a cheater.
- 1 day ban / remove some glory points
- no one needs to be name and shamed
- player hangs head in shame and plays properly

that kinda process... kinda... maybe...

more steps we can add to make it harder, more ways GM's can see if something funky is going on.

[Sapience]

Generally in MMOs, the rule is "one input, one action". That's been the case explicitly in several games I've played, and seems to jive with what Sapience has been telling us.

So, every time you click a button or press a key, one character performs one action (no different than happens with a single client with normal keybinding...the keyboard registers the input, software outside the game client sends to the client, and the client interprets that keystroke and performs the action). For another action, you need another click.

So, for example, setting up a cycle of abilities that execute in order every time you click (as in, click 1, action 1 executes. On click 2, the macro moves to action 2) would be ok. Setting up 5 actions to execute when you click once is not.

This bears on multi-boxing as well. Using a keyclone to send one action to one client per user input is ok, and emulates noting more than what your keyboard/mouse already do outside the client....you simply have certain input sent to one client, others sent to others....FYI, this accounts for the vast majority of multi-box play, once you step outside forum sensationalism and hyperbole. A multi-boxer will have "1" execute a specific action on Client 1, Shift+1 execute a different action on Client 2, and so forth.

Using one key to send the same input to every client at the same time is a different case (I press "1", and 5 characters all execute the same ability), and may or may not be allowed, depending on the game.

I'll let Sapience clarify whether that concept is the case in LOTRO, if we haven't already overtried his patience on the whole topic.

The game supports the use of the ;alias system wich is similar to a macro system. You can design an ;alias to trigger a stepped series of commands with a single key stroke.

You'l find that the larger concern for us is unattended gameplay. Software that lets you walk away fom your PC while your character continues to 'play' the game. This is what most people mean by botting. Multi-boxing doesn't even come remotely close to this in most cases.

[Kaedian66]

As thrilling as it is to read everyone's opinion on marcos and multiboxing and such is, despite the clear, concise and yet oft repeated stance of Sapience, I have to point back to the initial reply where a mention of the forum reboot was casually mentioned.

These are, by far, the worst performing forums I have ever had the displeasure to use. A typical day involves playing "click and pray" when I try to change the forum I'm looking to peruse. If you do a search outside the forums and Google, or whatever your search provider du jour is, gives you a result buried in these fine forums, odds are that clicking the link will bring you to the Index page, not the linked item.

This is nothing new, the complaint if far from unique but the reality is, this is so far off from professional, it's actually shameful. People lose posts, replies, rebuttals etc daily. There is nowhere near the traffic that other sites handle, and I daresay the performance has gotten worse as the numbers have gone down. It's like a &&&&&& restaurant that needs 90% of the tables full for the staff to be efficient.

I know the fix is coming "soon" but for the love of sanity, please make this "soon" actually be sooner rather than later.

[Yulin-Gladden]

...I know the fix is coming "soon" but for the love of sanity, please make this "soon" actually be sooner rather than later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfchO...ature=youtu.be

Next week, according to the current schedule.

[TheCrossbow]

they would just make more accounts. but it's much much harder to make another account than delete a toon and remake it. it would add another step to annoy and keep cheaters away from cheating.

most importantly, and sapience keep note. if you did something like that, it would be so much easier to see cheaters.

Sorry... but, I am still waiting for someone to explain how, exactly, farming your rank is cheating? How is fulfilling the reputation needed to advance in rank cheating? Do you not realize that a couple of friends could, legitimately, collaborate to help each other "rank farm" in the same manner as one person with several accounts all running at the same time?

I don't PvP and don't really care about PvP. So, understand I don't really care... but what I see is a bunch of people who only have their underwear all twisted up over people who have figured out how to leverage the reputation/rank system in such a way that they can "level" faster than you.

Forgive me if I am wrong... but all I see are a bunch of cry babies who are crying that it isn't fair because the other guy "got there" before you. I would argue that those of you crying about "rank farming" as "cheating" really do not know what you are talking about.

[Sthrax]

Sorry... but, I am still waiting for someone to explain how, exactly, farming your rank is cheating? How is fulfilling the reputation needed to advance in rank cheating? Do you not realize that a couple of friends could, legitimately, collaborate to help each other "rank farm" in the same manner as one person with several accounts all running at the same time?

I don't PvP and don't really care about PvP. So, understand I don't really care... but what I see is a bunch of people who only have their underwear all twisted up over people who have figured out how to leverage the reputation/rank system in such a way that they can "level" faster than you.

Forgive me if I am wrong... but all I see are a bunch of cry babies who are crying that it isn't fair because the other guy "got there" before you. I would argue that those of you crying about "rank farming" as "cheating" really do not know what you are talking about.

I think part of the problem with rank farming is that there are real PVP advantages gained from your rank. The Battlefield Promotions buff gets much better the higher in rank you are. On freep side, you can eventually get 1st and 2nd age weapons once you get high enough in rank. In some cases, there is other freep gear that is hands down better than anything else for that slot, which is rank gated (such as the Champ off-hand ax, only marginal surpassed by the gold ax drop). These things give farmers an advantage over those that don't farm, and further upset the freep/creep balance.

If rank gave you zero advantage, I think the uproar over this would be less.

[MarkoftheRealm]

Sorry... but, I am still waiting for someone to explain how, exactly, farming your rank is cheating? How is fulfilling the reputation needed to advance in rank cheating? Do you not realize that a couple of friends could, legitimately, collaborate to help each other "rank farm" in the same manner as one person with several accounts all running at the same time?

I don't PvP and don't really care about PvP. So, understand I don't really care... but what I see is a bunch of people who only have their underwear all twisted up over people who have figured out how to leverage the reputation/rank system in such a way that they can "level" faster than you.

Forgive me if I am wrong... but all I see are a bunch of cry babies who are crying that it isn't fair because the other guy "got there" before you. I would argue that those of you crying about "rank farming" as "cheating" really do not know what you are talking about.

And I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how, exactly, resorting to name calling is a valid, legitimate form of debate that actually bolsters an argument instead of just making it weak and irrational.

Turbine is the only one who can define what cheating is in this game. Anyone else's definition is invalid. Clearly Turbine sees this issue as a problem or they wouldn't have the Player Council debating what actions to take.

[Fredelas]

Sorry... but, I am still waiting for someone to explain how, exactly, farming your rank is cheating? How is fulfilling the reputation needed to advance in rank cheating? Do you not realize that a couple of friends could, legitimately, collaborate to help each other "rank farm" in the same manner as one person with several accounts all running at the same time?

I don't PvP and don't really care about PvP. So, understand I don't really care... but what I see is a bunch of people who only have their underwear all twisted up over people who have figured out how to leverage the reputation/rank system in such a way that they can "level" faster than you.

Forgive me if I am wrong... but all I see are a bunch of cry babies who are crying that it isn't fair because the other guy "got there" before you. I would argue that those of you crying about "rank farming" as "cheating" really do not know what you are talking about.

I believe the essence of the unrest is that PvMP is at its core intended to involve combat against other players who actually hope to survive the encounter, rather than against oneself, or against other characters who make no effort.

It's true that in the past, players have collaborated with each other to repeatedly trade kills on their characters, in which the attacked character does not defend itself. Depending on which company was operating the servers (Turbine or Codemasters), complaints against this sort of behavior were handled differently.

There have always been players who were only interested in a particular piece of gear, but the means of obtaining it were new and exciting at the time for those players. After six years, there's very little new or exciting about the Ettenmoors for players who have been around that long.

LOTRO has become a game that is in many aspects about the solo grind, even when it comes to getting some of the very best gear in the game. It shouldn't surprise any of us that some players have brought this ethic to the Ettenmoors.

I've always wondered, what exactly is players' motivation behind rank farming? What do they intend to do after they get a particular rank? Get the gear and leave? It's not like killing a defenseless character tens of thousands of times prepares these players for actual combat against anyone else.

[bohbashum]

Sorry... but, I am still waiting for someone to explain how, exactly, farming your rank is cheating? How is fulfilling the reputation needed to advance in rank cheating? Do you not realize that a couple of friends could, legitimately, collaborate to help each other "rank farm" in the same manner as one person with several accounts all running at the same time?

I don't PvP and don't really care about PvP. So, understand I don't really care... but what I see is a bunch of people who only have their underwear all twisted up over people who have figured out how to leverage the reputation/rank system in such a way that they can "level" faster than you.

Forgive me if I am wrong... but all I see are a bunch of cry babies who are crying that it isn't fair because the other guy "got there" before you. I would argue that those of you crying about "rank farming" as "cheating" really do not know what you are talking about.

commented on a subject so rudely, when you don't even PvP is abit harsh don't you think?

and no, it's not just a prestige badge anymore, or something to go "hahaa, I got something better than you". let me try and put it into other circumstances as you don't seem to understand.

real world sport example:
Olympics, swimming. all the other athletes have have shaved down wearing tight man panties. all 300+ countries entered have all followed the rules and done there best training to be the best at there sport.

now the cheater, the guy wearing full body perfectly water streamlined. down to the maths this person, who didn't try much (he didn't even shave!!!). he comes in, wins, breaks world record...

is it fair to all the other 300+ countries that this country that this money crazy country went out side of the box to make there swimmer faster? the guy in second place beat records too, he trained amazing, he's sacrificed so much to win that, is it fair on him?

this also has a knock on effect at the next Olympics, the only swimmers potentially in for a chance of winning, are those who spend enough money researching there own ways to make the swimmer. left alone and ignored scientists developer bio-humans that swim faster than sharks... ok a little far but you get the idea surly?

it's real time these people spend...
you didn't just call all of these players cry babies (seriously did you do that?) you just insulted all that time they spend to get better a waste. it makes people quit, it makes people rage, it makes people start huge flame wars on the forums. it's a knee jerk reaction yes but it's like destroying there sandcastle just at the moment he was going to show it to a hot girl. seriously, any of these examples you must relate too?

and don't say it's just a game -_- people spend almost years of game time to get to rank 15 honestly. thats some crazy dedication, sad or not we need to applaud them for it. the guy who did it in a weekend cheating just devalued his reward by... only a lot... and thats ignoring how much money they spent...

"games" are made with rules for a reason. "games" have laid out rules for players to follow so it doesn't turn into a political argument like real life. "games"

2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cheating

4. While playing the Game or participating in related services, you may not exhibit or partake in behavior that is disruptive to the Game’s normal playability, causes grief or alarm to other players, or degrades the service performance or other players’ client software (for example, deliberately using game bugs or loopholes to disrupt the game or dropping excessive items).

17. You will not exploit, distribute or publicly communicate any Game error, miscue or bug which gives an unintended advantage within the Game world.

http://archive.lotro.com/support/1033-coc

apart from sapience saying they don't like it. it's clearing "cheating" as defined, or as the GM's call it "unsportsmanlike". it's not helping people play the game happily (herp derp, thats why we're discussing it) and at the worst side people quitting out of complete rage.

[Fredelas]

The more I think about it, the more curious I am about the motives of rank farmers. Perhaps rather than attempting to analyze their methods (which will undoubtedly miss some players and wrongly include a few others), we should look at why players are behaving this way. Maybe something needs to change about the game in order to accommodate their desires without marginalizing the accomplishments of players who have earned these things the traditional way.

I think it's pretty unlikely that anyone would come forward to answer these questions, but I'll ask them anyway:

1. How long have you been playing LOTRO? And how long have you been playing in the Ettenmoors?

2. What specific goals do you have that are based on your character's rank in PvMP?

(For example, is it a specific piece of gear? Or maybe it's just the buffs that come with higher ranks? Or maybe you're a completist who just wants to check something off a list?)

3. Why do you prefer to repeatedly kill one of your own characters, versus a character that actually fights back?

(For example, is it simply more efficient in terms of time? Or perhaps it is difficult to be competitive without the buffs of higher rank? Or maybe you just prefer the predictability?)

4. What do you plan to do after achieving your goals?

(That is, do you intend to continue in traditional PvMP? Will you use what you've earned for group PvE play? Or maybe just move on to check another accomplishment off your list?)

[bohbashum]

The more I think about it, the more curious I am about the motives of rank farmers.

I think farmers do it for 3 reasons.

1. they want to get a jump to a certain rank to feel "up to par" with other players. this could also come under the feeling some ranks are extremely slow, however it just gets worst and they end up jumping way to far and not enough skill to back up the claim of the rank. this is just devaluing and pointing out issues of balance in the game. however they are not at all helping the situation by ranking farming up.

2. items. lodes do it just for the items to do in PvE. and tbh I find that an issue with the game, not the players. imo PvP should be completely appart from the PvE world. they are heartless and don't care for PvP, only a ban or an update to how the PvP loot works will fix that.

3. prestige. PvP has ego's, anything to get your voice more weight is good to some players. if that means a shiney badge, damn they want it. just look at TF2 hats, means nothing but prestige, but they want the rarest!!! probably the worst form of cheating as it's just degrading the value of ranks for no reason other than to gloat in there own way. these guy however are punished the most when it is made public for all to see, a little name and shame does these guys good sometimes.

all in all, they mostly only need deterants than punishment imo. banning anyone would cause a backlash of arguments. and ofc there are stuff other than the cheaters themselves that need sorting. many balancing issues in moors and loot that needs sorting. but as moors is changing, cheating is becomeing common place, there will be a time when you might as well not PvP and just cheat for your badge to rank 15 because then it's "balanced" fighting and more fun. completely alienating new players and those that did player honestly before hand.

edit: just want to point out point 1,3 would be players who go back into moors and cause real ego trips and rage in moors. I do think 2 is honest at heart and is a problem with the game completely. if loot was completely exclusive to moors, you would stop a chunk of cheaters right there. just makes sense for balancing PvE AND PvP too, as they would have better controll of the foundations of PvP to balance it over time

[Reximus]

These things give farmers an advantage over those that don't farm, and further upset the freep/creep balance.

Farmers in PvE have advantages over non-farmers in PvE, more chances to get rare drops/patterns, more gold to buy them if they don't get the drops, more quest slots from completed deeds, more high ranked virtues, more quick travel options, and more access to the best gear.

Seems to me what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If farming is cheating in PvP, then it should also be cheating in PvE. Just because NPCs can't post on the forums to complain about how farmers are killing them, doesn't mean that the same advantages don't exist.

For as long as I can remember in MMOs those willing to put in more effort always got greater rewards, and while over time the threshold of minimum effort to gain decent rewards has gotten lower and lower, giving a greater number of players access to better rewards, it still hasn't changed the point of greater effort = greater rewards.

[TheCrossbow]

commented on a subject so rudely, when you don't even PvP is abit harsh don't you think?

It isn't rude. It is being frank... because I have been in games where people were clearly cheating... as in breaking the rules...

I have also been in situations where people cry and whine about things being "unfair".

And, if I may use your own example...

Olympics, swimming. all the other athletes have have shaved down wearing tight man panties. all 300+ countries entered have all followed the rules and done there best training to be the best at there sport.

now the cheater, the guy wearing full body perfectly water streamlined. down to the maths this person, who didn't try much (he didn't even shave!!!). he comes in, wins, breaks world record...

is it fair to all the other 300+ countries that this country that this money crazy country went out side of the box to make there swimmer faster? the guy in second place beat records too, he trained amazing, he's sacrificed so much to win that, is it fair on him?

this also has a knock on effect at the next Olympics, the only swimmers potentially in for a chance of winning, are those who spend enough money researching there own ways to make the swimmer. left alone and ignored scientists developer bio-humans that swim faster than sharks... ok a little far but you get the idea surly?

Yes, in this case, the cheater is clearly cheating by not having followed the rules. There is absolutely no question that he has cheated.

But, you are still missing my point. Again, I am not trying to be rude... I am trying to be as frank as I can about how flimsy (and that's being nice) the arguments against the "rank farming" are.

1. There is nothing wrong with having multiple accounts. Turbine has said this about 10 different ways.

2. There is nothing wrong with having multiple accounts logged in at the same time.

3. There is nothing wrong with having the ability to control those multiple accounts, so long as you are not breaking the rules to do so.

4. (And the is the kicker) What is to [currently] stop a few friends from doing what 1 guy with 10 accounts can do?

And, yes, as I said, I don't PvP or care to PvP in this game. What I do care about is having a part of the game changed/nerfed completely because people cannot stop being cry babies (sorry, but in this case it is applicable) long enough to discuss the problem rationally.

The more I think about it, the more curious I am about the motives of rank farmers. Perhaps rather than attempting to analyze their methods (which will undoubtedly miss some players and wrongly include a few others), we should look at why players are behaving this way. Maybe something needs to change about the game in order to accommodate their desires without marginalizing the accomplishments of players who have earned these things the traditional way.

Fredralas is about the only person so far that I have seen approach the problem from a rational position.

Their motives? Why does anyone want to "rank up" in other aspects of life or in other games? Why do we care about "leveling up" in LOTRO?

These people obviously see some reward they want from having the higher rank. So, they have devised how to get there by "taking advantage" of the ability to farm the rank they want. And it wouldn't matter what system is... they would still seek to "farm" the rank by whatever method necessary.

So, how about we take this discussion in a more rational direction? Otherwise, I foresee that the PvMP will get erroneously nerfed or changed for those who do engage in it.

[Fredelas]

Fredralas is about the only person so far that I have seen approach the problem from a rational position.

Their motives? Why does anyone want to "rank up" in other aspects of life or in other games? Why do we care about "leveling up" in LOTRO?

These people obviously see some reward they want from having the higher rank. So, they have devised how to get there by "taking advantage" of the ability to farm the rank they want. And it wouldn't matter what system is... they would still seek to "farm" the rank by whatever method necessary.

So, how about we take this discussion in a more rational direction? Otherwise, I foresee that the PvMP will get erroneously nerfed or changed for those who do engage in it.

I think other approaches to this situation are equally rational. I just wanted to look at it from a different angle, because efforts at enforcement can't completely solve what players perceive to be a problem. No algorithm could predict every variant of this behavior, and most would run the risk of sweeping up at least a few innocent bystanders and potentially alienating them as customers and community members.

I think everyone agrees that the best solution would be to throw more eyes (i.e., GMs) at the problem. But even if Turbine were willing to spend the money to do this, the inherent human error would be at least as damaging as any automatic patrolling.

Even if some attempt at enforcement is made, I think it's important to learn why this is happening. As others have pointed out, similar objectionable patterns of behavior exist in other parts of the game, too. By determining what exactly makes farming rank attractive, it might be possible to create legitimate game systems that explicitly cater to and (appropriately) reward that kind of behavior, or at least provide an appealing alternative to it.

For example, I've joked before about new raids that consist of a target dummy inside a grey cube for players who like grinding instances just to beat the RNG. Or an empty skirmish that periodically rewards marks and loot just for standing there, for players who like to automate AFK gameplay.

Those are extreme examples, of course, but I'm wondering just how many of us might set foot inside the loot cube (and how long we'd stay there) if something like this were available in the game.

[Sthrax]

Farmers in PvE have advantages over non-farmers in PvE, more chances to get rare drops/patterns, more gold to buy them if they don't get the drops, more quest slots from completed deeds, more high ranked virtues, more quick travel options, and more access to the best gear.

Seems to me what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If farming is cheating in PvP, then it should also be cheating in PvE. Just because NPCs can't post on the forums to complain about how farmers are killing them, doesn't mean that the same advantages don't exist.

For as long as I can remember in MMOs those willing to put in more effort always got greater rewards, and while over time the threshold of minimum effort to gain decent rewards has gotten lower and lower, giving a greater number of players access to better rewards, it still hasn't changed the point of greater effort = greater rewards.

If you'll remember, they actually did severely nerf the PVE farming that was taking place in the Hybolt and Wildemore daily instances- as in no loot drops in them anymore. When content is not being used how it was designed, it gets nerfed. The PVE farming got nerfed, PVP farming should too.

And BTW, PVP farming is NOT putting in more effort for greater reward, it is at best a shortcut and cheating at worst.

[Wilkens]

Farmers in PvE have advantages over non-farmers in PvE, more chances to get rare drops/patterns, more gold to buy them if they don't get the drops, more quest slots from completed deeds, more high ranked virtues, more quick travel options, and more access to the best gear.

Seems to me what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If farming is cheating in PvP, then it should also be cheating in PvE. Just because NPCs can't post on the forums to complain about how farmers are killing them, doesn't mean that the same advantages don't exist.

The last bit, though I will amend it slightly (the difference isn't that the NPCs can't post on the forums its that Turbine controls the NPCs), is the difference which makes all the difference. In PvE the game developer (Turbine in this case) sets the limitations for how rapidly and readily anything may be farmed (or alternatively how time-efficient the "grind" will be). They control which mobs are present (and where), their loot tables, the re-spawn rate and their difficulty of encounter. So there is a control which is exercised by the company as to the farming and how rampant it may be. Conversely in PvMP the target of the farming is, theoretically, another player. Turbine cannot control how skilled that player is (difficulty of encounter), how frequently they respawn (that is whether they give up after a certain number of deaths or keep coming back for more), nor can they control when and where player controlled mobs will appear. This means that someone who farms themselves has an advantage (in controlling time, space, and difficulty) which Turbine reserves for themselves in the PvE environment.

In turn this means that Turbine almost certainly MUST exercise additional restraints on actions in the PvMP environment whether through rules and penalties and/or through rewards. Both are options that should be pursued, as Fredelas noted there are almost certainly farmers who do as they do solely to get PvE items since the moors provides several best in slot (or near best in slot) gear pieces with significantly higher probability of acheiving them than the probability dice of engaging L85 mobs. So absolutely Turbine should look at the availabel PvMP rewards and try to make them more PvMP centric so that you dissuade folks from farming solely for PvE purposes but they also need to look at rules provide a modicum of control over time, space, and difficulty.

[bohbashum]

I am trying to be as frank as I can about how flimsy (and that's being nice) the arguments against the "rank farming" are.

1. There is nothing wrong with having multiple accounts. Turbine has said this about 10 different ways.

2. There is nothing wrong with having multiple accounts logged in at the same time.

3. There is nothing wrong with having the ability to control those multiple accounts, so long as you are not breaking the rules to do so.

4. (And the is the kicker) What is to [currently] stop a few friends from doing what 1 guy with 10 accounts can do?

And, yes, as I said, I don't PvP or care to PvP in this game. What I do care about is having a part of the game changed/nerfed completely because people cannot stop being cry babies (sorry, but in this case it is applicable) long enough to discuss the problem rationally.

there are better ways to modertise rank farming, and more importantly, making it harder to rank farm to do instead of turbine needing to shoot themselves in the foot (large amount of income I bet) by banning multiple accounts (which I don't think would be possible) and banning running multiple accounts over a single IP, 1 computer or 1 launcher. just a page back I suggested 6 ways they could make it much harder for the large amount of rank farmers so much harder to do. these processes would help clarify who cheaters are too (later post thx for fred).

and yes, example 4 is one of the hardest to ban for. that would be multiple people cheating over a much longer period of time and is already much harder to do than the current "best" way to cheat. most servers already allow sparring as common place, it's not a hidden fact at least 1 person a day will do the "I'll let you kill me, if you let me kill you". however there is something weird about that cheating, it is in the game, they are *kinda* being like a community, many dis-agree and become vigilantes killing those people too. it strangly evens it's self out. only the vigilante is happy at the end knowing he got a cheat amount of glory and annoyed some cheaters. again, this happends on a hugely smaller scale to other forms of rank farming, most days on servers it's still better off to play normally to earn glory.

btw, it's PvP, expect some gloated ego's and horrible child like rants. just ignore them please, don't give them credit or a value. I would hope GM's are smart enough to ignore many of the silly suggestions as they've already proved they don't want to just push out a broken idea.

[Sapience]

I know the fix is coming "soon" but for the love of sanity, please make this "soon" actually be sooner rather than later.

Because I understand the mystical relationship between release dates and the probability of them slipping if you speak of them, I'm going to say this with great misgivings. Baring something I cannot foresee (which is probably a great deal), the forum revamp is scheduled for next week. We haven't gotten a final green light on this, but that's the plan.

Of course, having now voiced that, it will slip. So no yelling if it does.

[Bel-Astarte]

Because I understand the mystical relationship between release dates and the probability of them slipping if you speak of them, I'm going to say this with great misgivings. Baring something I cannot foresee (which is probably a great deal), the forum revamp is scheduled for next week. We haven't gotten a final green light on this, but that's the plan.

Of course, having now voiced that, it will slip. So no yelling if it does.

Now you've done it.


*Prepares rubber chicken for sacrifice*

Good thing I have laid in a supply of these...

[Kate00]

Turbine just needs to go ahead and bite the bullet on this and make a decision. Either declare rank farming as permissible (as they've done with multi-boxing, both software-driven and manually-controlled) or decide on a definition and publish it along with the associated penalties and appeals process. Setting on the fence only seems to be causing ill-will and pointless debates. Pointless because there's no policy to debate.

People will slam Turbine:
A. If there's no policy
B. If the policy is seen as too weak
C. If the policy is seen as too strong
D. If farming in all its form is deemed perfectly acceptable
(point E would have been if the policy is seen as exactly right, but no policy will ever be seen as such by all players)

In other words, whatever action Turbine takes here (including inaction), they'll get slammed, so they might as well go ahead and rip the bandage off so that people can move forward. And yes, I do consider the certain debates that will happen over whether or not the policy is fair to be a step forward.

It sounds like the Players Council has been debating this somewhat endlessly as well, probably with one or two people on the council supporting rank farming and blocking any decision process. Please make a decision and take this off the Player Council's plate so they can spend the time spent on this debate working on other things.

all of this i agree with. COMPLETELY.

p.s. Kate loves Kal!

[TheCrossbow]

there are better ways to modertise rank farming, and more importantly, making it harder to rank farm to do instead of turbine needing to shoot themselves in the foot (large amount of income I bet) by banning multiple accounts (which I don't think would be possible) and banning running multiple accounts over a single IP, 1 computer or 1 launcher. just a page back I suggested 6 ways they could make it much harder for the large amount of rank farmers so much harder to do. these processes would help clarify who cheaters are too (later post thx for fred).

and yes, example 4 is one of the hardest to ban for. that would be multiple people cheating over a much longer period of time and is already much harder to do than the current "best" way to cheat. most servers already allow sparring as common place, it's not a hidden fact at least 1 person a day will do the "I'll let you kill me, if you let me kill you". however there is something weird about that cheating, it is in the game, they are *kinda* being like a community, many dis-agree and become vigilantes killing those people too. it strangly evens it's self out. only the vigilante is happy at the end knowing he got a cheat amount of glory and annoyed some cheaters. again, this happends on a hugely smaller scale to other forms of rank farming, most days on servers it's still better off to play normally to earn glory.

btw, it's PvP, expect some gloated ego's and horrible child like rants. just ignore them please, don't give them credit or a value. I would hope GM's are smart enough to ignore many of the silly suggestions as they've already proved they don't want to just push out a broken idea.

With all due respect... I still don't think you understand what cheating really is. Taking advantage of a legitimately available "tool" to advance yourself faster is not cheating. I would accept it being "underhanded" in that it does skirt around the "intended" path. However, all the whining about something that isn't really cheating does not further the discussion.

And, again, you are missing the point where it would not matter... every single person in the PvMP is "rank farming" whether by the slow, "traditional" means or a faster way. You must kill X-number of opponents to reach Y-Rank... which is what has given birth to those who figured out they could "abuse" multiple accounts (of their own) to expedite the process.

[bohbashum]

With all due respect... I still don't think you understand what cheating really is. Taking advantage of a legitimately available "tool" to advance yourself faster is not cheating. I would accept it being "underhanded" in that it does skirt around the "intended" path. However, all the whining about something that isn't really cheating does not further the discussion.

And, again, you are missing the point where it would not matter... every single person in the PvMP is "rank farming" whether by the slow, "traditional" means or a faster way. You must kill X-number of opponents to reach Y-Rank... which is what has given birth to those who figured out they could "abuse" multiple accounts (of their own) to expedite the process.

I'm not sure if your getting stuck over technicalities, don't fully understand how it's annoying people, don't fully grasp how much it annoys people, or just trolling.

do I need to try and explain it with another example? I think you get it, I'm just really unsure what point your trying to make. "shut up and deal with it" or "I believe rank farmers are smart players".

call it what you like but the whole problem at the moment is trying to defining rank farming and define it with a clear enough line for turbine to say "doing X = cheating! we punish cheaters!" without getting someone who does PvP *normally*. which is why I'm trying to ignore the obvious answer (were just going in circles trying to define it, sounds like council is too) and instead make rank farming much much harder so players just play the game *normally* or *as intended*.

[Sapience]

It sounds like the Players Council has been debating this somewhat endlessly as well, probably with one or two people on the council supporting rank farming and blocking any decision process. Please make a decision and take this off the Player Council's plate so they can spend the time spent on this debate working on other things.

The council is more than capable of doing more than one thing at a time. There are dozens of discussions going on all the time.

Rank farming is only one, but along the same lines they are also reviewing and help revise the community guidelines (almost done) and they are hearing from our Senior Customer Service people and GMs about feedback to improve GM/player relations and understanding of what GMs can and cannot do.