20 Questions – Big Battles

[dietlbomb]

This Big Battle scenario looks really cool. I am excited to begin playing it. Battle of the Hornburg! 10000 orcs! Thunder and lightning! It makes the skin tingle.

Player level scaling is a piece of software I have been hoping to see in LotRO for a while now. I even made a post about it listing some potential advantages and disadvantages:

Advantages:

• Dungeons would not need to be scaled individually. Each dungeon could remain at the level it was designed for.
• Players could complete specific zones over a larger level range. E.g. If you've been holding out on the Tomb of Elendil, you can still do it for credit at a later level and there will be more people interested in running it.
• Players of widely varying levels could complete skirmishes and other scaling instances together. 8 level 75 players could earn their seals with 4 level 20s helping out in a Trouble in Tuckborough raid.
• Larger pool of players for lower level dungeons. Most scaling instances are run either at the lowest level or the highest. Players in the 40s don't have much luck finding a group for the Great Barrow, but they would be most welcome in a group of 20s with a down-sidekicking system.
• The challenge of older fun dungeons could still remain pretty high. No 3-manning the Rift. No 20-second Turtle zergs.
• Marks, medallions, and seals could be awarded for every instance at a rate commensurate with each player's real level.

Disadvantages:

• This would require a huge revamp of the game's systems including an open tapping system (which they do seem to be adding in Rohan) and a player stat scaling algorithm. This makes my head hurt.
• Loot dropped in these instances might become more generic, if it has to scale to the individual player.
• Players might not want to go to Angmar at its original difficulty level. We would lose the ability to explore it unmolested.
• Deed grinding would get harder again. Some slayer deeds will require groups. Old instance meta-deeds will become challenging again.
• Mobs in instances would have static abilities. The level 20 wights you fight in the Great Barrow must be defeatable by level 20 players. Challenges for the level 75s would be reduced unless a challenge mode were added.
• Players might avoid certain zones since they can get experience from low-level zones. (i.e. why go to Angmar when you can get experience at level 40 in the North Downs?)

Since that time, we have seen a bunch of the disadvantages disappear. We have open tapping and scaling loot now. If the developers have solved the problem of scaling players' stats and abilities, it may be possible to apply player-scaling to those instances that have so far been impervious to scaling.

As I recall, the biggest obstacle to adding downscaling was that Turbine would be unwilling to devote the resources to a redundant scaling project. But if this new technology is part of the calculus of the Helm's Deep expansion, then it may open the way to scaled versions of Carn Dum or The Rift or The Grand Stair where the original dungeons can remain unmolested.

[Lohi]

So sad , the players of my kin will begin gradually to stop playing, is difficult to hold the good players that way.

I think it will help out a lot of other kinships and groups though. Right now if someone says "but I'm only level 30!" you can invite them anyway. You won't have the best rewards, but you'll have the fun. Or the max level player without the gear who says "but I've never healed before!", you invite them anyway and have fun. Even if it takes as long as Hytbold to get decent gear at least you'll be able to do it in a group. People keep asking why so many want to run Sambrog, and it's because no one gets filtered out for Sambrog.

Of course, there's no guarantee that we won't fall back into the same rut that only familiar people get invited to the group content, gear and traits checks still being done, etc.

[TJH-LOTRO]

Looks good so far, but as a player with alot of lowbies I have a question; Will we be able to gain experiance for doing these "Big Battles"? And if so, is it possible for you to make the xp a per character choise, incase you don't want to level up this way?

[smurfenstein]

It is true that to allow level 10s in and for them to have a fun and satisfying experience and want to play more that success in a Big Battle won't be an overly difficult thing to achieve.

It won't be all that hard to 'win'.

That's why we're introducing the medal system. What we're doing is basically grading you and your group every time you play the space. Each action you take, or don't take, thing you defend or don't, objective you succeed at or fail will add or remove points from your score. I would expect most level 10s, on their own without having many Promotions, to get a grade of D, a bronze medal. Enough to pass and get some measure of reward but not really anything to brag about. While the top end level 95 players who are kitted out and have a lot of Promotions are pushing the boundaries and attempting to get As, platinum medals and the best rewards the system has to offer.

It's not just that you're still standing then when the wall blows up. It's how many Rohirrim are still standing with you, how many banners and flags of Rohan still fly, how many injured soldiers were you able to protect, how long did it take to dam up the culvert and how many workers were lost doing it, did your catapults survive the battle, how many pieces are the gatehouse doors in, how many supplies did the enemy burn, etc etc etc. Each of those events and more contribute to your overall grade in any given Big Battle. Being able to coordinate and communicate effectively handling them all across a battlefield while your group is spread out and working on separate parts and pieces to the same overall problem and goal we believe will create a large degree of challenge.

I like the idea of the Big Battles system, and will get the expansion because it is something new. Being able to fill available spots with lower level kin members or friends is a huge boon to the social/fun aspect to the game. However, this is in a controlled "I pick who joins situation". That said, I am also terrified of trying to join a random group via IF and getting a bunch of lowbies as raid-members. Sure we may be able to 'win' through achieving the bare minimum of objective points and get the applicable rewards, but I am still getting gimped in that the higher point achievements will be entirely out of reach if I use the instance finder.

I don't see an easy solution as either lowbies will get kicked from a raid hoping to achieve more in favor of higher level people, or people who want to achieve anything noteworthy just won't use the IF. So I have 3 questions:

1) Will the instance finder have any sort of filter for level ranges or lower level player limits?
2) Would a level 85 with a First Age weapon scale to less DPS than a level 95 third age? (Which I assume there wont be a ton of level 95 2nd/1st ages)
3) Will low level characters be able to remove debilitating debuffs (such as fears that reduce your will and fate to a value of 1 for five minutes) with their low level potions?

Im sure Turbine has a solution for all sorts of challenges with scaling, these are just things I am wondering at this time.

[TJH-LOTRO]

Oh one more question (forgot at the time of previous post). Will high level (71+) be able to use their War-Steads for things like say, pushing the enemy out of Helm's Dike?

[smurfenstein]

Oh one more question (forgot at the time of previous post). Will high level (71+) be able to use their War-Steads for things like say, pushing the enemy out of Helm's Dike?

It was mentioned there will be no mounted combat in Helms Deep at launch.

[Hiritier]

Happy that some of the players' ideas has been listened. I dont have time to read all 6 pages so im not sure if anyone ask/answer this question:

Will this "big battle" require team work, an organized fellowship/raid with good leader, or it's just a kind of free access battle ground where anyone enter, doing stuff of there own and yell on each other "GO BRACE THE GATE!!!", "FALL BACK!!!", "SHOT THE SUICIDED BOMMER!!!"?

[mrfigglesworth]

Post that was locked in instances, raids, and skirmishes thread due to not being here:

"Originally Posted by ColorSpecs
"I'll be more specific. Will there be a traditional instance cluster offered during the course of the xpac cycle?"
Reply by sapience
"No. There are no plans to do so. Big Battles are our new instanced content."

My response
Even after reading the part about big battles being only one tool of many to convey and live the story, and that future expansions may go back to traditional instances, I have to say this direct and honest post reply is the biggest punch in the gut I've experienced playing this game. No plans to create any traditional 3 6 or 12 man instances for over a year?

The helms deep experience (aka hytbold 2.0 with grouping), class revamps, and then.....festivals? Sounds great."



Reply by sapience
"The way you say it, which is almost entirely wrong by the way, it doesn't sound so great. The truth of it is very different (thus why we're answering real questions in the actual thread).

And just to add a touch more clarification, the instance cluster concept is what I was referring to (which I think you understood based on your comments). Instances will exist obviously as Big Battles are themselves instanced.

So, back to the thread where you can ask questions and get answers with info."



Ok, so where did I go wrong here? If you say there are no plans to do any traditional instances (via any sort of instance cluster) for the helms deep cycle, why is it "almost entirely wrong" to say there are no plans for any 3, 6, or 12 man traditional instances for over a year?

[Wilkens]

If you recall, Helm's Deep was a small number of Rohirrim defending against thousands of Orcs. In this example, the big battle was one where they were hopelessly outnumbered.

Well SMALL is a relative number. Theoden led a force from Edoras which was intended to releive Erkenbrand, Elfhelm, and the riders/foot soldiers at the Fords of the Isen. Elfhelm himself commanded the several companies of riders (from the King's houehold troops that devolved to him on Theodred's death while Erkenbrand left Grimbold in charge of the foot levy at the ford which was several hundred to perhaps a few thousand more while he himself began mustering the Westfold. All of which is a long way of saying that Theoden led forth several thousand (it is explicitly stated he led forth more than a thousand but since the number is never mentioned as being greater a value between 1 and 2,000 and likely towards the lower end is clear) riders who all were encamped within Helm's Deep. Now the foot troops maning Helm's Deep with Gamling were indeed the militia and tended towards the old and the young but they numbered at least a thousand (again at least not almost). So all told there should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,500 Rohirrim men at arms not even counting the "3 parts of the folks of the Westfold" that were encamped within the walls. Add to that, late in the battle, that Erkendbrand brough at least another thousand Rohirrim that he and Gandalf had assembled in the night and you have between 3,500 and 4,000 Rohirrim men at arms. Sure they were going against at least 10,000 troops (then 10k is what comes from Isengard though unmentioned more may and likely did come from Dunland in separate columns) but calling 3,500+ small is kinda stretching the definition a tad bit (heck even if one were to just take the 2 to 2.5 thousand within the Hornburg and on the wall its still a far cry from small).


So yeah long post to basically say "small" is kinda misplaced when talking about the defense of the Deep.

[Whart]

It is true that to allow level 10s in and for them to have a fun and satisfying experience and want to play more that success in a Big Battle won't be an overly difficult thing to achieve.

It won't be all that hard to 'win'.

That's why we're introducing the medal system. What we're doing is basically grading you and your group every time you play the space. Each action you take, or don't take, thing you defend or don't, objective you succeed at or fail will add or remove points from your score. I would expect most level 10s, on their own without having many Promotions, to get a grade of D, a bronze medal. Enough to pass and get some measure of reward but not really anything to brag about. While the top end level 95 players who are kitted out and have a lot of Promotions are pushing the boundaries and attempting to get As, platinum medals and the best rewards the system has to offer.

It's not just that you're still standing then when the wall blows up. It's how many Rohirrim are still standing with you, how many banners and flags of Rohan still fly, how many injured soldiers were you able to protect, how long did it take to dam up the culvert and how many workers were lost doing it, did your catapults survive the battle, how many pieces are the gatehouse doors in, how many supplies did the enemy burn, etc etc etc. Each of those events and more contribute to your overall grade in any given Big Battle. Being able to coordinate and communicate effectively handling them all across a battlefield while your group is spread out and working on separate parts and pieces to the same overall problem and goal we believe will create a large degree of challenge.

I don't mind the idea of using this experience to teach lower levels grouping tactics, but this answer tells me that these battles are going to be a grindy running around to click on injured soldiers and put doors back together kind of thing--figure out what number of people need to be standing next to which thing for how long and you win. The only thing I'm really interested in is coordinated group killing tactics, like a real raid, and it doesn't sound like that really comes into play here.

[Khafar]

This sounds like a great idea! Thanks for including soloable versions, and for allowing duos in the solo version. That will mean two lowbie characters (neither of whom will likely be all that great as scaled characters) should be able to get together and succeed at some endgame instances. Plus it will probably double (or more) the pool of people who can group up at any given moment, and offers level-appropriate rewards for everyone involved.

Nice.

Khafar

[DerKetzer]

Can we expect also 20 or better 40 (20/20) questions for housing and class.
specially for housing wish me to here more news. what we should expect????

Greets Ghost

[Eartholloth]

Can we expect also 20 or better 40 (20/20) questions for housing and class.
specially for housing wish me to here more news. what we should expect????

Greets Ghost

Well I think many are gonna be disappointed with whatever changes they have in store. Here is a post from Sapience that was posted in the housing forum.

I just want to set some expectations before too many people start getting the wrong ideas.

Primarily, please do not confuse 'this year' with 'Helm's Deep'. While there may be some first steps in launched alongside Helm's Deep we aren't trying to tie the two things together. Any housing changes wouldn't be tied to a HD purchase for example. So don't expect HD to launch with an entirely new housing system, and I'd caution against thinking we're going to be able to rip out the old system and build a new one from the ground up. That's just not in the scope of this. If you think more in terms of revise and revitalize, you're a lot closer than if you're thinking overhaul and rebuild.

[JTollers]

I disagree that I'm pre-judging the the content, simply disappointed in the announcement that they have committed to 'all-in' on Big Battles instead of doing some sort of split between 'standard' instances and Big Battles. Big Battles could be amazing, it certainly sounds like it has potential. Big Battles might be awesome if say my small kin can do a 'raid' with only 8 people for instance, but it doesn't remove my disappointment that there are not going to be any traditional 6 and 12-mans after a year very light on 6 and 12-man content. I think had they dropped a 6-man or 2 and a full 12-man multi-boss raid (or even scaled some stuff) with Farlow or if they announced Moria 6-mans/Driagoch/ToO/Rift were scaling with HD (still a possibility as this announcement was focused on BB of course) then my perspective on this announcement would be total different. Again not saying "content will SUCK! GAME IS DOOMED!!!!!!11" just expressing reasonable disappointment that there will be no 'standard/traditional' style instances concurrent with the Big Battles (which I will say again have potential and I hope are awesome).

To the point of replacing Big Battles with mounted combat and legendary items, I feel that even if a person did not like those 2 additions to the game they weren't the some total of "endgame" with their respective expansions. Mounted combat was especially a sort of side diversion from the end game. A person could have mostly ignored their war-steed/MC and still do all the 6 and 12 man instances without any impedance. Big Battles are the things that those people who enjoy "endgame" will be doing for the next 6-12 mos. No judgement on if that will be good or bad, but it will be the only thing to do for the 'raider.' Even when they added skirmishes they still added some regular instances too and look at how under supported skirmishes are now. I'm just saying 'why not both at once?'

JWB,

Can you expository a little on how you see the aforementioned Kinship Revamp playing into BB or content in general in HD?

[Beaniemooch]

So what I read here is there is a big battle theory happening and new people can immediately jump to end game content without having to work on traits, gear, or learn to play. Oh, and there is no raid, no instance cluster, and nothing for raiders who have been hoping and praying for a bone to be tossed their way.

Yes, I'm bitter.

What I have just been told is there is basically no reason for me to log on again. Ever.

Thank you for the wonderful times, lotro. I will miss you.

[Guiwinner]

Well my personal point of view: I hope you are keep working on the game now, for keep people in game.

The Concept is a point of view too ... for example :
Concept:



Screenshot:




After this simple example, what i wanna mean it's easy. I really hope you will work for make this concept good for all players and for the game. This is my game, that is your job.
I really hope you will not do the same concept as the mounted combat ... at moment only a useless feature of an expansion based on that...

I trust this kind of battle isn't a skirmish ... and you will work enough for rewards and equips for every kind of player ( casual or hard core players ). Not like now! We have raid with the same loots for both tiers ... and nothing of good except the first age.

[whheydt]

Sigh... So Turbine did go ahead and screw the pooch and is setting up the Battle of the Hornburg to allow bunches of random non-Rohirrim appear.

How about changing the the game to "LotR Inspired" since it is clearly no long actually based on LotR?

[spelunker]

So what I read here is there is a big battle theory happening and new people can immediately jump to end game content without having to work on traits, gear, or learn to play. Oh, and there is no raid, no instance cluster, and nothing for raiders who have been hoping and praying for a bone to be tossed their way.

Yes, I'm bitter.

What I have just been told is there is basically no reason for me to log on again. Ever.

Thank you for the wonderful times, lotro. I will miss you.

So long as people who haven't put the time into leveling, gearing, deeding, and all the other things that go into 'end-game optimization' aren't able to complete the higher tier difficulties, i'm fine with this system. Everyone should be able to experience these instances, and I for one would be quite happy to get a taste of end-game instances if i were just starting out, as a carrot toward leveling and optimizing my character.

Just make sure these 'platinum' medals are a genuine challenge for experienced, geared players, and rewards accurately reflect the challenge (so not like what we have right now in scaled instances).

[ElfHunter1027]

I do have a question

Are we still getting a fall release date this year?

If so then why the lack of news, preorders, trailers, or anything besides this post really

[Minquinn]

So long as people who haven't put the time into leveling, gearing, deeding, and all the other things that go into 'end-game optimization' aren't able to complete the higher tier difficulties, i'm fine with this system. Everyone should be able to experience these instances, and I for one would be quite happy to get a taste of end-game instances if i were just starting out, as a carrot toward leveling and optimizing my character.

Just make sure these 'platinum' medals are a genuine challenge for experienced, geared players, and rewards accurately reflect the challenge (so not like what we have right now in scaled instances).

From what I read HD will have no separated tiers. One tier. Those who want a challenge will not be able to upscale the content.
My main question is are tanks and healers now a useless commodity? Will these instances run great with 12 hunters or 12 Burgs. The only reason why I ask is because my toons are mostly tanks and healers. I rolled them for that purpose. I'm not sure but I would guess the class revamp is going to make these toons more effective DPS.

Which defeats the purpose of the class explanations. If this is the case might want to eliminate these ones:

The Guardian is a protector of the weak and defender of those in need. He is capable of withstanding mighty blows and retaliating in kind. The true Guardian stands to the forefront of battle, shielding his allies from the blows of their enemies.

Possibly this one too:

The Minstrel is the heart of a fellowship, a herald of hope and renewal. He uses his knowledge of ancient songs and lore to ward against the forces of darkness and bring relief to his companions.

[spelunker]

I do have a question

Are we still getting a fall release date this year?

If so then why the lack of news, preorders, trailers, or anything besides this post really

Release/pre-order info usually goes out 3 months before release. Since this 20 questions has been centered on HD, it seems likely further details will be coming soonish. If we get significant info during August, release would likely be in November, which while a stretch, is still fall.

From what I read HD will have no separated tiers. One tier. Those who want a challenge will not be able to upscale the content.
My main question is are tanks and healers now a useless commodity? Will these instances run great with 12 hunters or 12 Burgs. The only reason why I ask is because my toons are mostly tanks and healers. I rolled them for that purpose. I'm not sure but I would guess the class revamp is going to make these toons more effective DPS.

Its a bit of a argument over semantics. There is no t1 and t2, but the additional objectives or goals will supposedly be adding difficulty to the instances in an optional manner, so while the instance would theoretically always have mobs of equivalent power, unlike the tier system, the optional objectives and medal system will still 'challenge' players. Perhaps the basic quest chain will require no healers or tanks, or dps, or whatever, but theoretically these objectives that earn medals will.

[Ailedra]

Post that was locked in instances, raids, and skirmishes thread due to not being here:

"Originally Posted by ColorSpecs
"I'll be more specific. Will there be a traditional instance cluster offered during the course of the xpac cycle?"
Reply by sapience
"No. There are no plans to do so. Big Battles are our new instanced content."

My response
Even after reading the part about big battles being only one tool of many to convey and live the story, and that future expansions may go back to traditional instances, I have to say this direct and honest post reply is the biggest punch in the gut I've experienced playing this game. No plans to create any traditional 3 6 or 12 man instances for over a year?

The helms deep experience (aka hytbold 2.0 with grouping), class revamps, and then.....festivals? Sounds great."



Reply by sapience
"The way you say it, which is almost entirely wrong by the way, it doesn't sound so great. The truth of it is very different (thus why we're answering real questions in the actual thread).

And just to add a touch more clarification, the instance cluster concept is what I was referring to (which I think you understood based on your comments). Instances will exist obviously as Big Battles are themselves instanced.

So, back to the thread where you can ask questions and get answers with info."



Ok, so where did I go wrong here? If you say there are no plans to do any traditional instances (via any sort of instance cluster) for the helms deep cycle, why is it "almost entirely wrong" to say there are no plans for any 3, 6, or 12 man traditional instances for over a year?

If by "traditional instances", you mean "dungeon crawls" (tower crawls?), it would seem there are no plans for such. Setups where you have a set roster of trash, then a boss that drops cool lewt, then more trash, then another boss, and so on to the Big Instance Boss would, based on Sapience's comments, be gone the way of the dodo.

I'll agree with the "gut punch" sentiment. Don't get me wrong, I applaud Turbine's recognition of the iconic nature of the Helm's Deep battle, and the commitment to giving a moment that iconic a different approach. They're likely looking ahead to the Battle of the Pelennor, which I also applaud. It's a new and unique approach.

I can't get on board with an "all-in" approach that says "we will no longer design traditional MMO instances, at least not this time around"....that leaves a lot of folks out in the dark. I get that Helm's Deep will be "instanced"....so are sections of the Epic quest line. That's not what the poster means by "instanced content"...they're talking about traditional dungeon/tower/castle/whatever crawls. I also get that the Helm's Deep battle will likely have tactically-intensive individual "boss" encounters for the highest medal rewards. I still struggle with completely throwing over an MMO staple like this.

[x72]

Sapience i have question that im sure many players want to ask and have answer.
Will we have any new (not scaling) traditional raids with hd as part of it, or at some point after the expansion pack we will have new instance cluster with new raids(i mean new instance cluster that isnt part of hd)?

[Hiritier]

Sapience i have question that im sure many players want to ask and have answer.
Will we have any new (not scaling) traditional raids with hd as part of it, or at some point after the expansion pack we will have new instance cluster with new raids(i mean new instance cluster that isnt part of hd)?

I think Sap said there will be no IC, because the "IC system" has been replaced by the "big battle" system.

PS: ok had more time to read the whole things. Nvm my question about the "team work" (the "split up" part sound like "FoS" style).

[Grimdi]

The optimist in me says that we'll get a lot of endgame content with flexible group sizes and difficulty range and the option for low-level chars to participate in a meaningful way, and a more deterministic way for rewards.
The realist in me says that we'll get a bunch of skirmishes as creative as Lonely Mountain, with some extra optional objectives, balancing focused on the upscaled players and another buggy loot system. Also a completely new class of bugs and exploits.

Some questions on details that I haven't seen answered yet (if you don't want to answer them it's fine, but please say so):
- Will the reward system auto-select a reward based on earned medals or will it be more like a barter system where we can choose a reward?
- You mentioned that the BB will be included in the story similar to Mirkwood Skirmishes. Does that imply that some of them are part of the Epic Story, or are they all bound to the HD purchase?
- Are Medaillions/Seals a secondary currency for the BB rewards, or are they only useful for LI stuff in HD?
- Will the BB include any bossfights at all, or will it all be defensive encounters against "hordes" of standard mobs.