20 Questions – Big Battles

[HunterGreen]

It won't be all that hard to 'win'.

That's why we're introducing the medal system. What we're doing is basically grading you and your group every time you play the space.

The primary reward system does have a method for 'trading up' where we allow you to choose whether you're going to get a random bronze medal quality class specific item or instead get a little more progress towards getting a silver item.

Oh, I am loving what I'm hearing more and more. This sounds like the direction I have always wished MMOs would go since back when the only ones out there were called MUDs.

[Sapience]

No, I'm not. Turbine is. This is a lore-based game whose lore is consistently being subverted.



That's what we say about every one of them.



This is also what we say about every one of them.



This too.

The simpliest answer to this is, I'm sorry to say, that the Lore was "subverted" the moment we let the first player in the door. As near as I can tell, I don't recall reading about any of you in the books. So if you play, you're a lore violation. So let's move off that non talking point and get back on topic shall we?

Interesting stuff.

I least now I know that these are not community generated questions.

Not entirely true. The questions came from the Council and from reading through the Helm's Deep forum to find the general types of questions that were being asked.

[goldensilence]

The simpliest answer to this is, I'm sorry to say, that the Lore was "subverted" the moment we let the first player in the door. As near as I can tell, I don't recall reading about any of you in the books. So if you play, you're a lore violation. So let's move off that non talking point and get back on topic shall we?

lol you don't? i was one of the un-named elves that helped in the fight for Helm's Deep. you don't remember me? awww......

[Frisco]

The simpliest answer to this is, I'm sorry to say, that the Lore was "subverted" the moment we let the first player in the door. As near as I can tell, I don't recall reading about any of you in the books. So if you play, you're a lore violation. So let's move off that non talking point and get back on topic shall we?

This is a bit disingenuous. There's a difference between something outside the lore (having leeway since something wasn't mentioned in the books) and something against the lore (something different than what was blatantly stated in the books). And being okay with small liberties regarding the lore doesn't mean that, ergo, every break from canon should be willingly accepted without comment. In the past, Devs on this very forum have used lore to explain why something was done differently, or will never come to pass (eagle mounts, anyone?).

In a game that relies heavily on the IP, you're bound to have a lot of people interested in the lore. It may be annoying to hear about, but these are your customers.

[Meriadain]

lol you don't? i was one of the un-named elves that helped in the fight for Helm's Deep. you don't remember me? awww......

Which aren't even there in the books, just in Peter Jacksons movies but got your point though. Still, all the rest you did(questing in shire, walking in moria, fighting in Carn Dum etc...) isn't in the books, so agreed with Sapience. I just really like the idea of being in that battle myself, even though the lore cant completely explain why Im there

[Stephen1981]

This is a bit disingenuous. There's a difference between something outside the lore (having leeway since something wasn't mentioned in the books) and something against the lore (something different than what was blatantly stated in the books). And being okay with small liberties regarding the lore doesn't mean that, ergo, every break from canon should be willingly accepted without comment. In the past, Devs on this very forum have used lore to explain why something was done differently, or will never come to pass (eagle mounts, anyone?).

In a game that relies heavily on the IP, you're bound to have a lot of people interested in the lore. It may be annoying to hear about, but these are your customers.

its a video game they can't stick to the lore all the time they need to break it i'm sorry yes people may play for the lore but expect a lot of things to be changed that are not up to lore standards and i agree with sapience response to the lore

[Sapience]

This is a bit disingenuous. There's a difference between something outside the lore (having leeway since something wasn't mentioned in the books) and something against the lore (something different than what was blatantly stated in the books). And being okay with small liberties regarding the lore doesn't mean that, ergo, every break from canon should be willingly accepted without comment. In the past, Devs on this very forum have used lore to explain why something was done differently, or will never come to pass (eagle mounts, anyone?).

In a game that relies heavily on the IP, you're bound to have a lot of people interested in the lore. It may be annoying to hear about, but these are your customers.

Yes and eagles is a good example. And people who do not have as much interest in the lore are also our customers and we listen to them, too.

However, and I'll say this again, this thread is wildly off topic now. If that means we're done we can close it and move on. If there is more discussion on Big Battles and the questions answered, keep it coming.

[Stephen1981]

i think my only concern with these big battles is how challenging the 12 man raid version will be

[ShireDweller]

Can you talk more about solo-only Big Battles? It sounds like for groups there will be concurrent teams of players taking care of activities simultaneously. How does a typical solo session play out?

[Coyote503]

This all sounds like one giant disaster waiting to happen. First off Turbine has shown that it can't even get the simplest of "classic" instances to work in the past. Draigoch is STILL bugged. The one six man we got in the last expansion, to hold us over an entire year (or longer), was bugged for nearly 6 months. The "raids" were a travesty and a joke and Flight was broken nearly a month and still bugs out to this day.

Does anyone expect them to upscale level whatever you are into this new type of content without major bugs? I mean seriously! It sounds like level 10 was chosen based upon future class changes, changes that don't sound like will be done by the expansion. How will this affect the new "end game" until then?

The last time I checked, expansions were for the people at end game with nothing to do. This was to bring them back/keep them playing your game. The lowbies at level ten and such have months of content to play. We don't!!!

Odds the bugs don't kill this new content on day one?? .0001 percent. If it doesn't the lag certainly will.


Cas

[ThomasTyndan]

Simple question: any insight as to how Skirmish Soldiers may factor in to Big Battles?

[mrfigglesworth]

Post that was locked in instances, raids, and skirmishes thread due to not being here:

"Originally Posted by ColorSpecs
"I'll be more specific. Will there be a traditional instance cluster offered during the course of the xpac cycle?"
Reply by sapience
"No. There are no plans to do so. Big Battles are our new instanced content."

My response
Even after reading the part about big battles being only one tool of many to convey and live the story, and that future expansions may go back to traditional instances, I have to say this direct and honest post reply is the biggest punch in the gut I've experienced playing this game. No plans to create any traditional 3 6 or 12 man instances for over a year?

The helms deep experience (aka hytbold 2.0 with grouping), class revamps, and then.....festivals? Sounds great."



Reply by sapience
"The way you say it, which is almost entirely wrong by the way, it doesn't sound so great. The truth of it is very different (thus why we're answering real questions in the actual thread).

And just to add a touch more clarification, the instance cluster concept is what I was referring to (which I think you understood based on your comments). Instances will exist obviously as Big Battles are themselves instanced.

So, back to the thread where you can ask questions and get answers with info."



Ok, so where did I go wrong here? If you say there are no plans to do any traditional instances (via any sort of instance cluster) for the helms deep cycle, why is it "almost entirely wrong" to say there are no plans for any 3, 6, or 12 man traditional instances for over a year?

sorry to double post, but im still hoping for an answer.

[Annariel]

However, and I'll say this again, this thread is wildly off topic now. If that means we're done we can close it and move on. If there is more discussion on Big Battles and the questions answered, keep it coming.

Well, I for one would love more discussion on the Big Battles!

I really like jwbarry's explanation of how we'll be awarded different medals based on how well we did, and the way these can be converted to rewards. I was hoping he'd also answer my question, but he didn't.

Since other people have been asking similar ones (and since we're trying to get back on topic), I hope it's okay for me to repeat it (summarized):

'Will upscaled players play a different (more limited) role than a true level 95 player would?'

I would be perfectly happy with that myself - I don't need to be the 'Star of the Show', I just want to be there and contribute in my own way. On the other hand, I can see how that would cause people to prefer not to group with upscaled characters.

[MrWarg]

i think my only concern with these big battles is how challenging the 12 man raid version will be

This is what concerns me too. I am having trouble reconciling the idea that we will need teamwork and cooperative gameplay with the idea that the content will need to be balanced for upscaled level 10 characters. To be blunt I am wondering how challenging Big Battles will be in that regard. I have no issue with Big Battles being inclusive of more players, but if they are balanced towards upscaled level 10 characters, and I may be wrong on this front, then it strikes me that well geared level 95 characters will probably find that content fairly easy. I think jwbarry alluded to that possibility earlier in this thread.

[Rhuvor]

I'm very much looking forward to the Helm's Deep Expansion, the ten levels of new content, exploring Western Rohan and participating in Big Battles at Helm's Deep.

Thanks to jwbarry for the detailed answers in this thread. Thanks to the Player Council members and the Devs for providing us with the latest 20 questions.

Thanks to Sapience for working so hard as our Community Manager.

[Angadan]

Me being at the Battle of the Hornburg is not lore breaking. There is no definitive list of who was there. Nowhere did Tolkien write, "only the Rohirrim, and members of the Fellowship of the Ring, were present." There's plenty of room for willing friends of the Rohirrim to have joined them, without it meriting a special note by the historian of the event. Now, if they were elven or dwarven, it might be a bit odd that the recorder didn't mention them, I agree. But not earth-shatteringly so. Well...hobbits, hugely remarkable, and enough to be "lore breaking" in my mind. I would agree with you there, since the Rohirrim (and others the fellowship met in their travels) reacted to first sight of Frodo, Sam, Merry, and/or Pippen as something out of fairy tales. So...bottom line...rail about the hobbits being there if you will, but dont' worry about the rest. POST SCRIPT: We went through this same debate about the Council of Elrond, but as you might recall, it turned out that there was plenty of wiggle room in the books for us to be present, including "members of Elrond's Household" and others as well.

[Valamar]

Just curious as to why so many people are entirely committed to the standard MMO group content (the holy trinity, tank/healer/dps) that has been used for over a decade now (yawn, yea, yea we all know our roles by now I would hope: know your taunt skills & use them accordingly; heal the tank as lightly as you can, ignoring the rest in order; shut off your dps if you get aggro & run to the tank, etc, it's really not that hard of a concept after all these years) and why so many people are completely writing off, dismissing, rejecting any effort to inject a different concept for end-game MMO gaming? I may eat my words & be completely let down, but can we just give it a chance before we all judge it?

I realize new ideas & changes to the normal routine at first can incite a riot or whatever, but come on, guys.

If you want yet another IC based on the same old boring combat tactics, I get it, it's your comfort zone. But maybe this new mechanic they are trying to come up with will be OK, and (far-fetched i know, but I'm trying to remain hopeful) it might even be innovative & challenging, who knows?

If anyone has any experience at all with REAL military tactics, especially above the squad level (i.e. more than 6-8 troops), then stop and consider how much impact any individual character -- Aragorn, Theoden, even Gandalf and Treebeard, had on the entire battle at Helm's Deep. The simple answer is "not much." Legolas and Gimli kept score -- but how many did they each account for -- out of some 10,000 Orcs... not many. Their impact was in strictly classic "Leadership" roles.

That's why neither Sylvester Stalone nor Bruce Willits ever received a Congressional Medal of Honor.

So, do you REALLY expect your "tank" to "win" the Battle at Helm's Deep? Or your Minstrel to cure enough Rohirrim?

And Helm's deep was really a "small battle" .... even Peter Jackson was able to use real actors for almost the entire charge -- but when he got the Pelinor Fields, he had to invent new CGI technology for the scope of the battle!

[Lohi]

Well I think many are gonna be disappointed with whatever changes they have in store.

Housing changes, no matter what they do, will disappoint a lot of people. While it's true that there are probably a majority of players wanting housing changes, they do not at all agree with each other when they give specifics of changes they want to see. Ie, some players just want more housing cosmetic items, some just want ability to place cosmetic items anyway, while others want kinship wide buffs based on items they have in their housing (ala DDO). More particular some players say clearly that they want crafting services in the housing instances while other players are very vocally against this idea, and so you can't easily reconcile the opposing viewpoints.

[DavisBoz]

So let's move off that non talking point and get back on topic shall we?

I do have a question about the scaled instances. Will the purple and teal loot from them still be Bind on Equip? If so, I'd really like to see it changed to bind on acquire.. For at least the teals. Being able to buy/trade teal loot from other players is disappointing and makes the rewards seem less valuable (to me at least). Maybe just make them tradeable within the group/raid for an hour, or something like that.

Also another question about healing in Big Battles. Will a healer really be needed? It doesn't seem like it since everyone will be spread out, and damage to players doesn't seem to be a main part of the battles anymore. If heals do end up being needed, will it just be like it is now, where everything can be healed by a Cappy? Or will actual heals (by that I mean a mini or RK) be needed?

[Lohi]

So what I read here is there is a big battle theory happening and new people can immediately jump to end game content without having to work on traits, gear, or learn to play. Oh, and there is no raid, no instance cluster, and nothing for raiders who have been hoping and praying for a bone to be tossed their way.
...
What I have just been told is there is basically no reason for me to log on again. Ever.

I think you're jumping the gun and prejudging things. First off, having lower level players able to join won't affect you since you won't be required to group with them if you feel so strongly about it.

Second, since it's a free to play game, at least wait to try this out before you declare it irredeemably broken. It's not a traditional instance but so what? We no longer have EQ style raids in any game anywhere anymore, and that's as "traditional" as they come. Trying something new is great, especially if it gets more players to grouping together instead of the same old inner circle.

[whheydt]

lol you don't? i was one of the un-named elves that helped in the fight for Helm's Deep. you don't remember me? awww......

You mean that you were part of the Elvish Drill Team that Jackson invented whole cloth? One of THOSE Elves?

[Angadan]

And Helm's deep was really a "small battle"

I know you put small battle in quotes to indicate that you meant it in a relative sense (to Pelennor Fields). Nevertheless, anything beyond platoon-size engagement fits in my mind as NOT small. Simply because a fighter in the scrum can't encompass all the moving pieces...so the part of the battlefield where he is becomes like a small bubble inside the bigger fight. That would be true of a company-size engagement just as much as when two field armies clash. [note I'm not talking about leaders, whose job it is to stand back and understand the entirety of the fight no matter the scope...but of the people actually wielding weapons, caught up in the fray]. What I'm trying to say is, given this reality of human awareness, there's plenty of room for Turbine and other game-makers to "simulate" large fights while really bubbling players in just a small part of it, as they did with that Dunlending city (Wulf's Cleft? something like that), and undoubtedly will be doing in the Big Battles. The interesting part will be how they DO include the leadership dimension and situational awareness, since they seem to be describing players as taking on both roles (fighter in scrum and leader coordinating all the pieces across the battle space).

[HeirOfNumenor]

If the answers of the 20Q's are really like that what I understand of it, then I think this will be a great boost up for the game.
Not only for top leveled characters, but also for the 10-ies.
In a battle you have good soldiers and less good soldiers. In the stories of lotr there is a variety of soldiers and common people participating in the battles.
This is a bit the same idea: whole middle earth is summoned to help in the BB's.

btw: If a new player level10 (scaled to 95 of course) is participating in such battle, it could be a challenge to the whole group to succeed.

The BB-system is not meant to succeed with some certainty . It's meant to give the chance to all levels to participate in one of the biggest battle of middle earth.

First impression of BB's: this is a winner

GL!

EXACTLY. As mentioned earlier, the forces at Helm's Deep were not just the mounted cavalry of Theoden's household, nor the survivors of Theodred's units at the Fords of Isen, but also the garrison at Helm's Deep - many of whom "had seen too many winters, or too few", as well as many of the yeomen and commoners of the Westfold (safe to assume these had NO military experience whatsoever).

Likewise, at the Battle of Pelennor Fields, only Prince Imrahil's forces were properly seasoned and outfitted - most of the others coming from the southern fiefs of Gondor were in varying degrees of poorly equipped/lack of experience/lack of leadership.

It should be noted that it was only when the Rohirrim came to turn the tide, (amd Aragorn's commandeered corsair ships arrived to rescue the Rohirrim from Haradrim regrouping behind the Mumakils) that Minas Tirith was saved....

So there roles for ALL character levels to play in LOTRO's Helm's Deep "Epic" Big Battle......after all, we cannot ALL at once be the Knights of Dol Amroth...or Eomer's Eored...or Aragorn's Grey company...

[whheydt]

Yes and eagles is a good example. And people who do not have as much interest in the lore are also our customers and we listen to them, too.

However, and I'll say this again, this thread is wildly off topic now. If that means we're done we can close it and move on. If there is more discussion on Big Battles and the questions answered, keep it coming.

Well... In the questions you *did* address the point that player characters of all races and origins will be in the Battle of the Hornburg (which was misnamed as the "Battle of Helm's Deep), so the issue of random Elves, Darves, Hobbits, and non-Rohirrm Men is on topic to that point.

It could aslo be pointed out that your own remarks, as quoted, are--at best--a meta-disucssion.

[Mirnir]

This is what concerns me too. I am having trouble reconciling the idea that we will need teamwork and cooperative gameplay with the idea that the content will need to be balanced for upscaled level 10 characters. To be blunt I am wondering how challenging Big Battles will be in that regard. I have no issue with Big Battles being inclusive of more players, but if they are balanced towards upscaled level 10 characters, and I may be wrong on this front, then it strikes me that well geared level 95 characters will probably find that content fairly easy. I think jwbarry alluded to that possibility earlier in this thread.

I think the point is that it will be fairly easy to get to the end of the instance, but as you progress through it there will be a series of objectives or sub quests that will be very difficult and will require tight coordination to complete in full for the best reward or score for that particular task, but which can be completed to a lesser extent (more casualties, bring fewer mob spawns into play, more damage to defences or whatever it happens to be) for lesser rewards. So I don't think that they are balancing it towards level 10 characters at all, there should still be a level of challenge to the objectives that low level upscaled characters should not realistically have a hope of achieving, though they can pass the objective with a lower level of completion. At least, I hope this is what it means.

Maybe it would be a good idea to allow low level characters to use their low level medals to barter for temporary access to a small number of class skills to use within the instance, to give them more a feel for their class role and encourage them to actually level up to get those skills permanently. E.g. max 3 skills from the non-legendary, non improved group of skills.