At last, is the Big Battle of Helm's Deep Lore-Breaking?

[ericpae1]

Really? So you've played since April 2007 and yet have only managed to compile one 85 character?

Lol, trying to discredit what is being said by trolling who's saying it isn't going to work on me. I stick to the subject at hand.

uh, ok.

I don't understand the arguments about lore, but I do respect those that do when it's not delivered with arrogance. I do have a serious question for those that know and strive to adhere to the lore. I have read the entire thread but did not see this answered, though I could have missed it.

There were many 'nameless' there at HD, what's the issue with our character being one of the nameless?

[Angadan]

Heh, Radhruin does bring up a point in his posts of this thread (and likely elsewhere) that I find particularly interesting. Turbine have, over the past six years, frequently been able to put us, the players, into places explicitly described in the book. Without, I submit, breaking the lore. Simply because we were less note-worthy than the Fellowship and other key players like Elrond or Galadriel. In other words, since the narrator is focused on the fellowship, as Dave Among Us rightly points out, we have the luxury of being a bit more anonymous, in SPITE of the fact that we are ourselves the cat's meow in our own ways. But HERE is the interesting point: the more the storytellers (devs, etc) of Turbine make us into super cool cats, the harder it is for them to keep using that anonymity...there DOES come a point, as Radhruin brings out, where it becomes unrealistic for us not to have been mentioned. Talk about being foist on your own petard, eh Turbine! I find this amusing.

[Radhruin_EU]

uh, ok.

I don't understand the arguments about lore, but I do respect those that do when it's not delivered with arrogance. I do have a serious question for those that know and strive to adhere to the lore. I have read the entire thread but did not see this answered, though I could have missed it.

There were many 'nameless' there at HD, what's the issue with our character being one of the nameless?

Because player-characters are consistently portrayed as mighty heroes, people of note - not nameless people nobody notices.

Because the nameless masses aren't the ones who do the epic deeds and save the day. (If Joe Average does do something notably heroic, he makes a name for himself right then and there).

Because hobbits, Dwarves and Elves wouldn't blend in terribly well among all those Rohirrim. (And nor would anyone with the sort of fancy gear that player-characters have)

Because the player-characters are supposed to know Aragorn & Co. personally and wouldn't just ignore them or stand at the back so nobody saw them.

[ericpae1]

Because player-characters are consistently portrayed as mighty heroes, people of note - not nameless people nobody notices.

Because the nameless masses aren't the ones who do the epic deeds and save the day. (If Joe Average does do something notably heroic, he makes a name for himself right then and there).

Because hobbits, Dwarves and Elves wouldn't blend in terribly well among all those Rohirrim. (And nor would anyone with the sort of fancy gear that player-characters have)

Because the player-characters are supposed to know Aragorn & Co. personally and wouldn't just ignore them or stand at the back so nobody saw them.

Thanks for the response, appreciated. I understand and can see your point on all your examples, but there is one that sticks for me most. The fact that they know us and wouldn't ignore us when noticed. It is a huge battle and much is on their minds, but if they recognized our character and remembered our heroics they would want us in a key position, if not with them.

just my thoughts on it

[Angadan]

Because player-characters are consistently portrayed as mighty heroes, people of note - not nameless people nobody notices.

Because the nameless masses aren't the ones who do the epic deeds and save the day. (If Joe Average does do something notably heroic, he makes a name for himself right then and there).

Because hobbits, Dwarves and Elves wouldn't blend in terribly well among all those Rohirrim. (And nor would anyone with the sort of fancy gear that player-characters have)

Because the player-characters are supposed to know Aragorn & Co. personally and wouldn't just ignore them or stand at the back so nobody saw them.

You make four good points. One and two halves of which I agree with to some extent.

(1) Yes, but the world can be filled with people of note, who nonetheless go about their lives without fanfire. In my military career, I'm known some real heroes, I mean honest to god super cool cats who did wondrous things. To run into many of them on the street, you might think they were lawn guys or insurance adjustors (who can also be cool people, don't get me wrong). Don't think all books can be judged by their covers.

(2) Agreed. We are extraordinary. I can live with that. I think the lore can too, even if I end up at Helm's Deep. This is the one I fully agree with.

(3) Here's one I only half-agree with. Yes, elves and dwarves are uncommon in Rohan. But not necessarily lore-breakingly so. Not going to belabor the host of points made over two threads and the past three days, please feel free to refer to the rest of this thread and the 20 questions one if you haven't already followed our debates on this particular point. As for our gear being super-cool and shiny, I don't know about you but some of my toons tend to wear subdued clothing that blends into the terrain, and the others have very high quality armour that is nevertheless plain and unadorned. None of them is garishly dressed or outfitted.

(4) The other that I half-agree with. No one says we're ignoring Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli, or them us. All that is required for the lore not to be broken is that the narrator of the tale not relate to the reader how we ran into each other and talked, slapped each other on the back, high fived, shared skins of wine, whatever. After all , why would the narrator mention every single social interaction the fellowship members had with others? He was focused mainly on them, not those around them.

I do respect your perspective, even if I don't agree with the other two and two-halves of it. Thanks for your post!

[Ryvick]

Because player-characters are consistently portrayed as mighty heroes, people of note - not nameless people nobody notices.

Because the nameless masses aren't the ones who do the epic deeds and save the day. (If Joe Average does do something notably heroic, he makes a name for himself right then and there).

Because hobbits, Dwarves and Elves wouldn't blend in terribly well among all those Rohirrim. (And nor would anyone with the sort of fancy gear that player-characters have)

Because the player-characters are supposed to know Aragorn & Co. personally and wouldn't just ignore them or stand at the back so nobody saw them.

Your statements are just plain absurd.

Just because we may be "Mighty Heroes" doesn't mean everyone in Middle-Earth has any clue as to what we have done. The majority of our accomplishments are known only to a few people, perhaps a few dozen? How would anyone in Rohan let alone in West Rohan know of our feats assisting the Fellowship in Vol I or of the trials and tribulations of Amarthiel. A few Dwarves and Elves in Moria and Lothlorien may know of what we did in Moria and less during the diversion that was the Mirkwood campaign. Then there was the secrecy of the Dunland fiascoes and our low key assistance in Rohan.

Ill agree about Hobbits, but Dwarves didn't start to diminish from Middle-Earth until the 4th age after the reclaiming of Khazad-Dum. It wasn't uncommon for Dwarves to have trading caravans all over the place. And as for Elves. I'm pretty sure one or more elves in a throng of 1000+ men wouldn't be sticking out like a bright lighthouse beacon.

As for your last statement. Who says we would even run across them before, during, or after the battle. It's not like they would have these bright beams of light pulsing over their heads and loud horns blaring "Hey Look at Me I'm Special!"

[genseerian]

You know, if you really wanted the game (and it is a game) to be completely lore-compliant, then the only characters we should have to choose from are those from the Fellowship itself and all of the quests should be only things that are recorded in the book. It would be like one giant session play. Personally I think that would be rather boring. I know full well that there are things in the game that aren't found in the book, but after all it is a game. I think they've done wonderfully in creating Middle Earth and keeping as true to the book as possible, but who's to say that the things that aren't recorded in the book didn't happen and just didn't get mentioned? Lots had to be going on while the Fellowship was off doing their thing. If you're getting so very upset that things aren't just so, maybe you should re-evaluate why you're playing. Play to have fun. It's a game.

[BackAgainAndThere]

You know, if you really wanted the game (and it is a game) to be completely lore-compliant, then the only characters we should have to choose from are those from the Fellowship itself and all of the quests should be only things that are recorded in the book. It would be like one giant session play. Personally I think that would be rather boring. I know full well that there are things in the game that aren't found in the book, but after all it is a game. I think they've done wonderfully in creating Middle Earth and keeping as true to the book as possible, but who's to say that the things that aren't recorded in the book didn't happen and just didn't get mentioned? Lots had to be going on while the Fellowship was off doing their thing. If you're getting so very upset that things aren't just so, maybe you should re-evaluate why you're playing. Play to have fun. It's a game.

Yeah, lotro is after all an MMORPG. The whole point of a MMORPG is to make your own unique character. Definitely can't have a bunch of Aragorns or Legolases running around on a single server. The only way to play Aragorn or Legolas is to play an offline RPG based on LotR, not a massively multi-player RPG.

[Isilmacil]

For me, Lore bending is alright, so far as its handled delicately. So far I`ve found Dave`s interpretations to work within the context. I use to think for example that the Golden Host attacking Dol Guldur was absurd, but when you read the story, it makes more sense. I will give a few examples that others have listed and give my own interpretations based off what the in game story has told:

Siege of Mirkwood - According to the main story, Mirkwood doesn`t have its full force gathered, with Mordor reinforcing it shortly. Therefore, Celeborn`s goal is to cripple Dol Guldur`s garrisons and forces already in the forest enough so that it`ll take more time before Lothlorien is attacked. They all know this will happen regardless, but they just want to hinder Sauron`s forces. Then you have the side purpose, of distracting Dol Guldur from searching for the Ring, since its passing right down the river close at hand. Then you have the third goal of the epic with the Hidden Guard. One of my favorite parts is when one of the NPC`s in Thanguilhad mentions how the main Golden Host will keep the enemy busy, while a small kinship have already infiltrated the tower (aka Barad Guldur raid), and how you`ll strike from the underground passage. Once this is all done, the story is suppose to end with you helping the Golden Host finish off any last tasks before they depart. Sadly, since zones are locked in time, we don`t get to see this process, though its implied.

Draigoch - Draigoch from the brief stories about him is a dragon that some of the Dunlendings have worshipped for who knows how long. Supposedly he could even be the cause for their clan name, the Draigh-luth (or Dragon Clan). Since Tolkien gives no history on the Dunlendings, besides when they were removed from Gondor, and their few campaigns against Rohan. So perhaps there was a Dragon that only the Dunlendings knew about. And since none of the other races of Man seem to know about their culture, it could be squeaked in that one was under the radar. Not even the Wise like Gandalf and Elrond knew everything (Tolkien makes a note in one of his works that only Gandalf ever bothered to learn about Halflings). So since our characters actually learn some Dunlending culture, we learn about Draigoch, and take care of him accordingly.

I could also try to explain more about such ideas as the Iron Garrison or other locations that Tolkien doesn`t list. The overall point is that Turbine to me has done a very good job setting tones in their vision of the Lore that could possibly have existed, but just were never written about.

[Radhruin_EU]

(1) Yes, but the world can be filled with people of note, who nonetheless go about their lives without fanfire. In my military career, I'm known some real heroes, I mean honest to god super cool cats who did wondrous things. To run into many of them on the street, you might think they were lawn guys or insurance adjustors (who can also be cool people, don't get me wrong). Don't think all books can be judged by their covers.

Sorry, but that hardly applies that given the fuss the game makes about the player-characters. It doesn't make them out to be quiet, unassuming heroes - there's all that Hero of Eriador business, remember? Hero with a capital 'H', the comic-book variety.

(2) Agreed. We are extraordinary. I can live with that. I think the lore can too, even if I end up at Helm's Deep. This is the one I fully agree with.

Well no, lore can't really live with that because extraordinary heroes do great deeds, get noticed and get tales told about them. That's rather than point of the thread.

(3) Here's one I only half-agree with. Yes, elves and dwarves are uncommon in Rohan. But not necessarily lore-breakingly so. Not going to belabor the host of points made over two threads and the past three days, please feel free to refer to the rest of this thread and the 20 questions one if you haven't already followed our debates on this particular point. As for our gear being super-cool and shiny, I don't know about you but some of my toons tend to wear subdued clothing that blends into the terrain, and the others have very high quality armour that is nevertheless plain and unadorned. None of them is garishly dressed or outfitted.

Remember that player-characters are toting legendary weapons and other items made by Dwarves or Elves - that stuff is all worlds away from the mundane gear the Rohirrim had. They'd stand out. Also try to remember that the Rohirrim didn't pal around with Elves (they didn't know them, and were superstitious about them) or Dwarves (who they didn't like very much) and would be very surprised to see them turning up at Helm's Deep. Unless the Dwarf just happened to be there to try to sell them something, which would be more typical behaviour.

(4) The other that I half-agree with. No one says we're ignoring Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli, or them us. All that is required for the lore not to be broken is that the narrator of the tale not relate to the reader how we ran into each other and talked, slapped each other on the back, high fived, shared skins of wine, whatever. After all , why would the narrator mention every single social interaction the fellowship members had with others? He was focused mainly on them, not those around them.

Oh, sure, the narrator has to conveniently fail to mention that this Hero-with-a-capital-H turned up, fought alongside Aragorn & Co. and did mighty deeds. The only way not to be noticed would be to not do any mighty deeds, which would rather obviate the point of being there, yes? Given the way the game has puffed up the player-characters, you don't get to pretend they're nobodies - and it's just not on at all if they're Dwarves, Elves or hobbits because they'd attract immediate attention.

[Radbug]

Remember that player-characters are toting legendary weapons and other items made by Dwarves or Elves - that stuff is all worlds away from the mundane gear the Rohirrim had. They'd stand out. Also try to remember that the Rohirrim didn't pal around with Elves (they didn't know them, and were superstitious about them) or Dwarves (who they didn't like very much) and would be very surprised to see them turning up at Helm's Deep. Unless the Dwarf just happened to be there to try to sell them something, which would be more typical behaviour.

Maybe the Rohirrim should just go out and kill a few orcs. They'll get a boatload of 3rd Age 'Legendary' items that way.

[Radhruin_EU]

our low key assistance in Rohan

Low key? What about that business of ending up as Thane of Thingummybob, then?

Ill agree about Hobbits, but Dwarves didn't start to diminish from Middle-Earth until the 4th age after the reclaiming of Khazad-Dum. It wasn't uncommon for Dwarves to have trading caravans all over the place. And as for Elves. I'm pretty sure one or more elves in a throng of 1000+ men wouldn't be sticking out like a bright lighthouse beacon.

They'd notice, They'd talk, because an Elf would stand out among them (unless disguised, but why on earth would they try to hide their presence given that Legolas is there?). So unless you imagine a player-character would do absolutely nothing to draw attention (i.e. no heroic deeds, no saving the day, no interaction with major characters at all) then they could hardly escape notice. The Men of Rohan weren't at all used to having Elves among them. (Or having Dwarves fighting alongside them, for that matter).

As for your last statement. Who says we would even run across them before, during, or after the battle. It's not like they would have these bright beams of light pulsing over their heads and loud horns blaring "Hey Look at Me I'm Special!"

Because Helm's Deep wasn't all that big, and because they were with Theoden King who you most certainly would notice. And because your character damn well knows them, and has fought alongside them, and has no reason whatsoever not to do the same again. And above all, no reason to be acting all coy all of a sudden and trying not to be noticed!

[BirdofHermes]

Here's another fun irony. The letters, UT, and HoME are actually technically off-limits to Turbine. If Tolkien clarified anything in them, that is not stated explicitly in the text of LOTR and The Hobbit, I'm pretty sure they can't actually use it.

Oh but they can, and they already have (like Fingolfin being mentioned in the game). They just can't use certain things by name when they are only mentioned outside LOTR (and possibly The Hobbit, since WB owns that now too). They have to remain vague about it.
However, this does not mean they have to contradict Tolkien's other writings. They could go along with it, but for whatever reason they choose not to.

Tolkien was not specific (within LOTR) about the Iron Garrison, Rune-Keepers, the Golden Host, Draigoch, or the specific and precise whereabouts of the Lieutenant of DG throughout the events of LOTR. He wasn't. I've read the books.

Except for the Golden host part, you are correct (their non-existence is in Return of the King). But try not to forget that Lord of the Rings is only a small fragment of a very long history, and Tolkien wrote much more. Both history books as well as more novels. It is unfortunate that WB only posseses a fragment of the story, but again, they could have chosen to make material that does not contradict the author. But they did.

And, to be very precise, given how Tolkien sets up LOTR as the Red Book, written by Bilbo, Frodo, etc. and passed down, and collected recollections after the fact, he was also saying very clearly that this is not a complete and exhaustive record of everything that happened, or even everything that happened to these people.

Correct, which is why he has other works, in which some of the gaps are filled or more details are given. Turbine chose to create materials that contradicts those filled gaps.

That uncertainty, that remove of the narrative from the events is itself part of the lore.

In the cases where there is, certainly. But in the cases I mentioned, there isn't. Tolkien filled them.

Even if "absence of mention is mention of absence" were not a screaming logical fallacy, and it so, SO is,

I agree. Which is why I'm baffled that you would argue for it. You claim that because something isn't in LOTR, it therefor doesn't exist here and shouldn't concern Turbine because of license?
Oh dear me and lawks.

But that argument rests on the notion that because he didn't mention any others, that there could not have been. Yes, there is some sense of this in commenting on how remarkable Legolas and Gimli are to them, but again you have to think of how even in the context of LOTR as presented that remarkableness is filtered through recollection, in a story specifically meant to highlight the remarkable heroism of these particular people. I'm not trying to do the "Gandalf was really a jerk, but portrayed as a hero" thing, but just because Legolas was awesome, doesn't mean that Begolas wasn't running around being awesome somewhere in the same zip code. You didn't hear about Begolas because it wasn't his story. But there's room, so much room!, for all these other stories.

When you're an omnipotent creator-god of a world and mention a specific point in history and space, then proceed to list the characters present, it can be assumed you do it pretty accurately. It's pretty hard to believe you "forgot" the 12 characters that were the most notable among them and did the most work. Yes, it's we with the different races present, it's we with the First Age glowing weaponry, it's we with the heterogeneous and sometimes ridiculous looking armour, and judging by the preview of the battle: it's once again we who defend the walls, repair things and kill the baddies while the Rohan NPCs will be milling around like headless chickens.
And you really think an omnipotent spectator would fail to mention that, when mentioning so many details?

What it is saying is: everyone's threshold is different and no one has been appointed by Eru as the arbiter of the threshold.

Indeed. But it's no use pretending that Tolkien didn't write this stuff down. You can plug your ears and go la-la-la-la-la all day, he still wrote it. When he says something about his own created world, we can take it to be correct and true. When Turbine directly contradicts it, you can expect people to be up in arms about it, again and again as we have seen in the past 6 years.

I'm assuming that's a poor assumption. In fact, the only thing I'm willing to assume is that anyone who assumes anything about a diverse playerbase is almost certainly wrong beyond a very general level of commonality. I enjoy the story as presented and I think it's very well done. You can have your own idea of what would be better, but I'm content for the moment to follow along with Turbine's collective creative vision. I don't think I'm alone. I also think I enjoy the gameplay well enough, and I've tried other MMOs that have been released since, and found them lacking, and not just in the presentation of their IP. There's something I find compelling beyond the ability to visit places mentioned in the books and seeing polygonal representations of the heroes.

I did not say everyone plays this game for the story. I said I think most people do. Just like you.

[Witch0King]

Why? What is wrong with being told about it?
And by that I mean, why *must* our character be present at every single event that ever happens during WOTR, even to the point when it regularly conflicts with the timeline and breaks spatial physics by being in several places at once?

You forget that the battle of Helms Deep was one of the most defining moments in the war of the ring. winning that battle is even more important than defeating Khamûl and Mordirith. I'd hate to participate in Helms Deep through session plays. all this lore fuss, all they do is allowing your character to participate in the fight. He's already saved/helped a large part of Rohan, not to mention the giant in Wildermore. Of course your character is going to be in the most defining battle Rohan has ever fought. Or do you intend to skip the battle of Minas Tirith and the black gate aswell? Why should they even bother making a castle like helms deep if we're not going to interact with it?

If all this fuss about the timeline was true we wouldn't have the time to leave Eriador at all.

[Kongas]

Regarding session play.

Turbine have created a new game technology they call Big Battles. It is the new end-game content and for now there are going to be no raids or instances associated with the next release.

Even if most players quite like the odd one-off session play your can sure as heck bet they wouldn't want to park their toon and spend the next 6 months playing a generic rohirrim. No way. It would be commercial suicide.

As an aside - please people - stop using the term 'lore monkeys' - it is insulting. Address the arguments, don't name call.

It's a lore break. There were not dozens of superheroes at the battle.

But most of us don't care. Just like most of us accept that to make an appealing MMO lore has had to be heavily compromised all the way through. As lore breaks go this one is pretty minor. The unbelievable spectrum of bad guys and our superhero powers when facing them permeate the whole game as one giant lore-break. Gandalf himself wouldn't be invited into a t2 raid for heaven's sake.

Turbine have had to walk a commercial tightrope and I have no doubt that if they made this battle session play or had us off elsewhere while it all went down then there would have been an enormous, bad publicity outcry.

Instead they are getting great publicity, even from critics like me, for what sounds like a great new gameplay development. I yield to few when it comes to respect for JRR and the world he created. I've read the trilogy and the Silmarillion many more times than a grown man should. But standing with King Theoden, Legolas, Gimli, Aragorn and the people of Rohan at the Hornburg, in the face of overwhelming odds is one of those moments i've been looking forward to.

I'm sure I speak for many when I say that I would have been crushingly disappointed to not have my character there. Now I just hope the Big Battle system is at least 60% as great as they are cracking it up to be.

I can understand why people who value lore might not like this but I think you are in the minority. You have the option of not taking your elf, hobbit or dwarves there. Or your rune-keepers, minstrels and lore-masters.

[BirdofHermes]

You forget that the battle of Helms Deep was one of the most defining moments in the war of the ring. winning that battle is even more important than defeating Khamûl and Mordirith. I'd hate to participate in Helms Deep through session plays. all this lore fuss, all they do is allowing your character to participate in the fight. He's already saved/helped a large part of Rohan, not to mention the giant in Wildermore. Of course your character is going to be in the most defining battle Rohan has ever fought. Or do you intend to skip the battle of Minas Tirith and the black gate aswell? Why should they even bother making a castle like helms deep if we're not going to interact with it?

The difference is that we could participate at the latter two battles because the participating warriors are much less specified. We could already be in the city. We could come with Aragorn via the river. We could even pledge our swords to Denethor and become part of a garisson.
Point is, there is no defining reason for us not to participate in them, unlike in the Hornburg battle.

If all this fuss about the timeline was true we wouldn't have the time to leave Eriador at all.

Why's that?

[Vincent_Price]

Oh, sure, the narrator has to conveniently fail to mention that this Hero-with-a-capital-H turned up, fought alongside Aragorn & Co. and did mighty deeds. The only way not to be noticed would be to not do any mighty deeds, which would rather obviate the point of being there, yes? Given the way the game has puffed up the player-characters, you don't get to pretend they're nobodies - and it's just not on at all if they're Dwarves, Elves or hobbits because they'd attract immediate attention.

Well, the narrator obviously forgot to mention about the hero that -during the war of the ring and the chase of Sauron's Ring- killed 2 dragons (one of them ressurected by a vicious wight and a Nazgul which you also killed), killed thousands of Orcs, helped Aragorn reforge his blade by killing a huge turtle in Evendim, killed the Witch King and a few of the other 9, killed dozens of giants, and humongous spiders (possibly spawns of Ungoliant), and helped hundreds of people by doing thousands of quests in Middle-Earth.
Tolkien failed to mention all those deeds (most among them being mighty). Therefore corroding the very core of your game. But not mine.
For some reason you won't accept this. Instead you will only go mad at Dwarves battling among Rohirrim at Helm's Deep (after of course they aided hundreds of them and becoming more known among them).

Is it so far fetched for somebody that helped a whole country to be fighting among those people in their time of need?
No. Not at all. In fact it's most logical to do so. And to even be asked by the king to help.

Is it Lore Bending?
Yes, in the sense that it doesn't explicitly being said that no such claim was made in the Two Towers book or elsewhere.

Is it Lore Breaking?
No, it doesn't ruin the whole Lore. At least for me. Lore breaking would be if Manwe would suddenly create a tornado and sweep the 10.000 Uruks among the battle.


There's a big difference between Lore-Bending and Lore-Breaking. Thanks for throwing the term by the way (at whoever did it). I wasn't aware of it.
The term Lore-Breaking includes the Lore-Bending term. But it is not the same with the latter. They don't overlap.
When you fought dragons and killed drakes in Angmar, just because a dwarf in Gabilsthatur (??? does it really exist?) told you so, it's lore-bending and lore-expanding.

Fighting as your character in the battle of Helm's Deep, is the most logical thing i'd expect in a MMORPG that has to do with LOTR.
Would i like to session play as Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas (or even -i have to laugh- Haldir)?
No, why should i? It's been done several times in many Single Player Games.

Would i like to session play or even group instance as a Rohir?
Heck no. I created my character from scratch only to participate with HIM in the big Battles of the Third Age.
Being there as a Rohir, would ruin the whole advancement i made and the whole purpose of me playing (my purpose and i believe many others' too, not yours).
In fact playing as a Rohir would create one big gap. Those that only had a Rune Keeper...well what were they supposed to do?
Play and learn a whole new class to satisfy the whims of -as i witness here- the vocal few?
Not a good idea at all.


Even if somebody considers this a lore-breaking i have to say this :
You've had many Lore-Bendings and Lore-Breakings, along the way. Maybe playing as a hobbit in Helm's Deep is Lore-Breaking, but that must be the last time this can happen. And i totally forgive Turbine and of course i understand their decision (not just because i like it).

One more thing. Defending the women and children in the caves is not "Lore-Breaking" and fighting Uruks outside is?
Why's that? There was stated (and it was your argument) that other races (dwarves, elves, hobbits) didn't even set foot inside the fort.
What place do they have in there protecting the children?
What exactly where they supposed to do at this instance? Look at each other maybe, since Tolkien didn't mention that there were any Uruks that broke into the caves.
And if there were supposed to be Hobbits, Dwarves and Elves there protecting them, why isn't it ok for them to wear their armour and repel the Uruks?
Isn't there were they're most needed if they're able warriors? It's far more logical even though "Lore-Breaking".

[Ferthcott]

Correct, which is why he has other works, in which some of the gaps are filled or more details are given. Turbine chose to create materials that contradicts those filled gaps.

When he says something about his own created world, we can take it to be correct and true.

Finally. So there is something in his other works that "fills the gaps" on that specific topic? Not Angmar, Iron Garrison or Mirkwood or other distractions - Helm's Deep, as in: defenders, numbers, races, places, order of battle.

It would be so nice to see something else than pieces of Two Towers. So... any specifics? Preferably something that does not need additional interpretation. Also - let's exclude any third-party books if they are based on TT.

When you're an omnipotent creator-god of a world and mention a specific point in history and space, then proceed to list the characters present, it can be assumed you do it pretty accurately.

True. But "omnipotent creator-god" works only for letters, interviews and other means of speaking about M-E without 4th wall present. Since Tolkien decided his books were written by "someone else" - and it's author's prerogative, not subject to interpretation - they no longer can be treated in the same manner. If he said books were what Bombadil wrote after "mistakenly" eating too many strange mushrooms, it would have the same effect: readers would have to deal with it or invent their own lore. Treating Red Book (and, to some extent, elements of appendices etc) as a set of imperfect accounts is the former - insisting they provide the exact and the most important details of what happened (or "omnilore") - the latter.

It's pretty hard to believe you "forgot" the 12 characters that were the most notable among them and did the most work. (...) And you really think an omnipotent spectator would fail to mention that, when mentioning so many details?

Forgetting is not the only possible reason. As for failing to mention "important bits", they can simply be not important enough in the eyes of narrator(s), who have simple goal (not only in HD): talk about Fellowship members and add PoV of royalty, which was something you could hardly exclude. We certainly know any Rohirrim warriors that distinguished themselves that day, did something extraordinary that would've been additionally inflated by the moment (so: in the eyes of those who saw it) and the meaning battle had for the country (so: later on, with the information being gathered for "songs"), were not "interesting". Hama died, that's about it. That speaks volumes about credibility of narrator(s) as "omniscient". Which is not even necessary, as they don't get that badge on principle: because Tolkien decided who the narrators were and that alone makes them flawed, limited and biased.

[Kongas]

Forgetting is not the only possible reason. As for failing to mention "important bits", they can simply be not important enough in the eyes of narrator(s), who have simple goal (not only in HD): talk about Fellowship members and add PoV of royalty, which was something you could hardly exclude. We certainly know any Rohirrim warriors that distinguished themselves that day, did something extraordinary that would've been additionally inflated by the moment (so: in the eyes of those who saw it) and the meaning battle had for the country (so: later on, with the information being gathered for "songs"), were not "interesting". Hama died, that's about it. That speaks volumes about credibility of narrator(s) as "omniscient". Which is not even necessary, as they don't get that badge on principle: because Tolkien decided who the narrators were and that alone makes them flawed, limited and biased.

From what I remember at the very end of the battle there were very few left alive to ride out with Theoden. If there were a dozen 'mightier than the Maia' types among them I'm sure they'd have got a mention.

It's a giant and completely necessary lore break.

I just accept this is an alternate Middle Earth to the one JRR writes about and go with the flow.

[Witch0King]

Why's that?

Because we would still be riding back and forth between Laerdann and Golodir...

[Vincent_Price]

From what I remember at the very end of the battle there were very few left alive to ride out with Theoden. If there were a dozen 'mightier than the Maia' types among them I'm sure they'd have got a mention.

It's a giant and completely necessary lore break.

I just accept this is an alternate Middle Earth to the one JRR writes about and go with the flow.

Why are our characters mightier than the Maia? When did we best a Maia (solo or even in a raid)? As far as i know, Balrogs didn't belong in Maia.
I haven't yet fought the last chapter of the Tower of Orthanc raid, as i think this is what you're reffering to. But do we really beat Saruman with only 12 people and not the help of anyone else?

[Kongas]

Why are our characters mightier than the Maia? When did we best a Maia (solo or even in a raid)? As far as i know, Balrogs didn't belong in Maia.
I haven't yet fought the last chapter of the Tower of Orthanc raid, as i think this is what you're reffering to. But do we really beat Saruman with only 12 people and not the help of anyone else?

Compared to Legolas and Aragorn we're unbelievable. We're superheroes among these mere mortals. We slay dragons, we slay trolls by the bucket load. We shoot lightning from our fingers, we wield awesome weapons and are festooned with magical jewellery, we face down Saruman and slay super-dragons, demons and balrogs (with the help of our Super-Friends), we slay more uruk-hai than it took to take down Bormir while AFK making coffee. We are super-awesome. We're not 'some guy' that slip people's memories.

Half a dozen of us, so long as we had a Warden a Minstrel and a Hunter with crit chaining rain of arrows in the team, could have held the hornburg on its own from Saruman's pathetic bunch of orcs probably. If we're not Maia w're the next best thing.

My point is it's no use twisting and bending lore to say we might have been there, sitting inconspicuously in the corner somewhere. We're about as inconspicuous as Liberace headlining Vegas.

We're in a Middle Earth where orcs and uruk-hai barely cut it as cannon-fodder. Sauron's forces are chocked full of stuff, from trolls to demons that barely get a mention anywhere in Tolkein and the super-heroes swarming all over the place are the forces for good's equivalent.

None of it fits lore so I'm not going to get in the slightest bit upset with being in Helms Deep.

[staveisle]

Did you see what I said before about the lore-within-the-lore? The historicity of the Red Book itself?

The "lore" itself, within its own construction, is a memoir of sorts, assembled out of the remembrances of some of the people who experienced it, long after it was over. According to the text, Legolas did not run around fighting wood trolls in the Trollshaws. But, it also doesn't say that he didn't. It doesn't say that there were any other adventurers abroad, just that the fellowship didn't encounter any that they could recall years later AND that the author felt were significant enough to include in the Red Book.

This is not the same as categorically stating that these things did not happen. There's very little that Tolkien categorically stated did not happen, and it's actually very reasonable to infer that where he made sweeping generalizations in the text, the author of the Red Book may have been ignoring a sea of details in order to paint a broad picture. There is room in the text for all of this.

Tolkien worked in legend and fable. By their nature these things present a world that is very simple, almost impressionistic. It is not meant to be a detailed, "realistic" detail of every bit of working of Middle Earth, if it existed as a real place. Treating it that way, I would argue, is just as disrespectful to the text as having a hobbit juggling chainsaws on the top of Barad-dur.

This is a key point that some folks just aren't comfortable with. I've seen no definitive quotations of Tolkien that would bar Turbine from placing us at the battle.

Now if Turbine were doing something with the War of the Last Alliance you'd have them dealing with something like this: "All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of birds and beasts, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed GIl-Galad. Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron." (Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age) Clearly, they could not depict some renegade elves fighting for Sauron.

The problem we run into is we love Tolkien's work and have strong impressions of what things were like and how things were in his world and when something goes against that, we recoil. We Tolkien loves like our Lore untainted. Peter Jackson and Turbine are Orcs trodding in the clean waters of the Nimrodel with their foul feet! In order for their ventures to be successful, they had to piss off a few puritans.

It's pretty easy for me to say 'There should not be any other elves or hobbits or dwarves at Helm's Deep'. It's not possible for me to say 'There were not.' Therein lies the wiggle room.

[Ferthcott]

From what I remember at the very end of the battle there were very few left alive to ride out with Theoden.

If by "ride out" you mean that charge, then there's no number present in TT, it's merely a common sense that a number of them died during the battle. If you mean "ride to Isengard", then he simply "chose Éomer and twenty men of his household". Now that at least looks as a proper challenge - we seem to be unable to get a ride to Isengard to gloat, way more detailed description than that of the battle is directly in the way. Unless... we will simply go on our own, killing 12 boars and burning 10 corpses on the way, and meet them there. Huh, some challenge...

If there were a dozen 'mightier than the Maia' types among them I'm sure they'd have got a mention.

DM: You are standing on the wall, looking at thousands of angry orcs and hillmen. They are storming the gate, carrying ladders, shooting arrows, waving swords and corpsejumping those who were not fast enough to flee. You are tired, thirsty, scared, wounded, suffering from a slight sleep deprivation. Some of your friends are dead, there's no way out, they blow up the stones with some devilry from Saruman. Next wave is hitting the wall in seconds.

Warrior 1: I take a long look at the First Age weapons that dude to the right is carrying. Oh, come on, Desperate Flight Cooldown legacy? Are we supposed to fight with this noob?
Warrior 2: Nevermind his LIs. He's a frikkin elf. No one trust elves. Who even let him in here? Do we have no standards anymore?

DM: You are hopelessly outnumbered...

Warrior 2: Oh, please, this place has never been taken. I say we throw him out, or at least imprison. He could be an orc spy. Foreigners, they all look alike to me.

DM: He just completed Orc Slayer (Advanced).

Warrior 2: Psh, Saruman has a lot of orcs to sacrifice. It's a clever ruse.
Warrior 1: Oh, all right, all right, let him stay, it's not like he's going to pull aggro to us with that LI.
Warrior 3: But remember to fill a complaint with our union rep. Our jobs are supposed to be protected. They might as well start letting in dwarves too.
Warrior 2: Dwarves, lol. Keep your gold close and your ore closer. Weren't there some merchants around earlier anyway?
Warrior 3: Yes, but they were breaking a number of tax regulations and we told them to leave. Those orcs are 95lv, Dwarven Steel crafted pieces are ridiculous at this point anyway.
Warrior 2: Strange though, dwarves, elves, you'd think this was a fortress of Rohan. What is happening to our country... we clearly need a bigger wall. Or a fence.
Warrior 1: Strange times indeed. I'll let that hobbit know after we are done here. It's certainly important to pass on to later generations that there were some strange folk around.
Warrior 3: Oh, that Frodo guy? Yeah, I read his earlier works, kinda childish to my taste though. You sure about it?
Warrior 1: Nah, newb, that was Bilbo. Frodo is blogging about serious stuff. Though personally, I think he has a ghostwriter.

DM: *Ehm* Ladders have reached the wall, orcs started to climb.

Warrior 2: Oh, right. Anyone remembers what we were supposed to do?
Warrior 1: Man, how many times do I need to explain T2C to you. Wait for hobbit minstrel over there start singing. He will draw the aggro since we have no crazy dwarven tanks around and we will be clear to shoot some. If you are hurt wave to that elf of ours, he should do something using his progress bar thingy. No idea how he does it, but it works. Clearly an exploit.
Warrior 3: Hm, which leg piece should I use? This one has more Might. Also, anyone with Fear pots?
Warrior 1: Damn it, we are already in the instance, you should've sorted that out earlier. Now look at you, two hits and you'll go down like a... you'll be demoralized.
Warrior 2: Tsk. You are making us look bad in front of an elf. Wait, wait... there's something that I missed. What hobbit? Who let a hobbit in here too?
Warrior 1: Oh, chill, it's a solo instance, but they can bring two. I am sure they are serious about it and not trying to farm stuff in ezmode.
Warrior 2: Stop confusing me with mechanics. Why is he here? Wasn't one elf enough?
Warrior 3: Technically, he's a side character. Like you and me, just cooler. And with more cosmetics. And skills. Nevermind, our elf is the only one who is "seriously" here.
Warrior 2: But what about that one earlier, when those 6 killed a troll?
Warrior 3: No, no, you are looking at it wrong. Look closer at that elf.

DM: That orc arrow in your head is blocking the view.

Warrior 2: I use my Wound potion. So what about him?
Warrior 3: See that title engraved on his helmet? "Slayer of Mordisomething"? He's the only one with that title. Whoever gave him that quest, gave it only once. Whoever gathered those 6, they were his temporary sidekicks. You know, like you two and me.
Warrior 1: I'll remember that when you are stuck on a rock again.
Warrior 2: Or when you pull three more orcs for no reason.
Warrior 3: Hey, I just wanted that champion to stop wasting my time and AoE them all. Is that too much to ask? It was like he never even learned he has those skills.

DM: The first orc has reached the wall. For crying out loud, can I get some serious rp-ing in here for once? You'll worry about elves and hobbits after the battle. If you survive. If anyone writing down stories is even interested in your blabbering.

Warrior 1: All right guys, you heard the man, this small stuff should not be so important in a moment like this.

DM: Thank you. That orc has scored a critical hit and applied a nasty debuff. It's ticking down and will result in AoE stun if not removed.

Warrior 2: I use Wound potion, baby.

DM: You are still on cooldown.

Warrior 1: *Sigh* here we go again. Westemnet noobs...
Warrior 3: Just tell the elf he's lagging, always works.
Warrior 1: Elf has just went afk.
Warrior 3: Oh, right, multibox Platinum farm after all?

DM: Your friend dies from his wounds, terrible debuff is placed upon you and you feel irresistible urge to run around in terror, picking up every orc along the way.

Warrior 3: So... about those Fear pots?

[Angadan]

Trying to figure out how several people who clearly all enjoy the lore of LotR can be coming to such vastly different conclusions about the lore-appropriateness of our showing up at the Battle of the Hornburg. Clearly Dave Among Us, myself, and a number of others think we fit nicely in without busting any seams, while Radhruin, W.W. Heydt, Bird of Hermes and others see our presence as a huge lore quandary. People have different opinions and perspectives, of course, but such strongly divergent views, well, there must be a reason for it. After re-reading several posts, I think maybe I have it at least partially figured out: Some buy the hype, others don't.

Practically from the day we get to Bree, but most certainly by the time we're into Volume I, Book 7, running around Angmar exacting vengeance and saving the day, we are told by very important people like Elrond and Gandalf that we are some really awesome cats. We are super-hot, smoking, and the only reason we aren't carrying the ring to Mordor ourselves is because we have more important places to be, we are that awesome! Yes, I'm poking fun at the game (and ourselves) a little with exaggeration, but you get my point. We are told through most of three large Volumes that we stand apart.

So some of us begin to believe the hype. At first, we just smile with pride that we're making a difference. After a while, we begin to feel a little annoyed at having to do anything that doesn't smack of epicness. What? No, I'm not going to pick that flower, don't you know who I AM? And by the time we slash our way through the Great River region and swing into Rohan, we're convinced that there is an aura of holy light around our beings, a tinkling sound like angel's bells ringing when we pass, and no lack of other noticeable clues that EVERYONE must see, pointing out how we are Really Cooler Than Them.

So how could we POSSIBLY show up at the Battle of the Hornburg and not immediately be noticed by all 2,000-4,000 good folk who are there? It is simply impossible to imagine that the narrator of the story failed to mention us, and PROMINENTLY I must note, even if he was focused on some other guys instead of us (it's even more galling that those other guys are our buds, who have the job that MAYBE WE SHOULD HAVE HAD, I MEAN LOOK AT US!). Sorry, got carried away there. You see what I mean.

Heh, yes, I'm having a bit of fun at the expense of the people who think a little too much of their own characters' importance in the world. I don't mean it maliciously, you CAN point the finger at Turbine devs if you want, who do tend to pat us on the back a lot (as most good game designers will do, of course).

Could we be at Helm's Deep and fit within the lore? Absolutely. The other people there, they just don't understand how super cool we are, and that gives us the opportunity to fit right in.