TRANSCRIPT: Twitter Dev Chat August 21, 2013 - Class Changes

[Sapience]

Well then they need to just answer with a no instead of dancing around the question with a answer like they did because people are going to take it as yes we are going to get a new class eventually.

This is an example of people trying way too hard to read things into comments.

Are we adding a new class for Helm's Deep? No.

Then there's the reality of the larger impossible to answer questions which we usually ignore. Questions with "ever" or "never" in them.
Are we EVER going to add a new class? Great question. Maybe. Maybe Not. "Ever" is a really, incredibly long time. I'm going to go out on a limb and bet no one can answer a question like that about what they may or may not do at any point in the future.

[Madmanthief]

As I said in another thread, it seems very similar to what was done in DDO concerning the Prestige lines.

[Sthrax]

I really, really despise trait tree systems. They try to give you an appearance of choice, but inevitably force you to put skills into things you don't want or need in order to get the things you do. They are also min/max'er dreams come true, and your goal of differentiating members of the same class will last as long as it takes the min/max'ers to figure out what the best build is. Then we are exactly where we are now.

Unfortunately, nothing in the dev chat lead me to believe that this revamp is an improvement.

[Stormwaltz]

I don't know. The more I hear about the upcoming changes, the more worried I become that it's going to be LotRO's "SWG-NGE."

The last time the trait system was revamped, it effectively reduced a fully open system to trio of subclasses with limited ability to mix and match. I play a Lore-Master specifically because I like the huge variety of skills. Debuffs, AoE, CC, pet, I have a tool for any situation. I play a hybrid trait setup, four red/DPS and three blue/pet/heal. I've never used a class legendary trait.

I don't want to specialize. What I love about the LM is that I can generalize.

/sigh
/fret

[zalladi]

This answers the question for current VIPs but my VIP sub ended and I still kept all the trait, virtue, race and legendary slots unlocked for all my character even the new ones. Will I still keep this perk?

I assume you will still keep all three lines.

That is because you have all the slots currently unlocked.

If you had slots left to unlock through the store, then I imagine there would be parts of the trees that would need to be purchased.

[Vexendynamus]

If I was fearful of the class revamps before, now I am utterly horrified. A lore-master will go from 41 skills to 20? That is dumbing down in the extreme. Were advanced classes eliminated?

MMOs are such strange animals. You find one you really like, play it with great enthusiasm, and then the developers change everything you know and care about.

[Elemiire]

Q15: Laire: Using all of their points, on average how many active skills does a 85 toon have? #LOTRO
A15: Jinjaah: Our goal, and it isn’t the same across the board, is for all classes to have around 20 skills after spending all their points.
A15a: Things like travel paths will not count towards this cap. #LOTRO


Q21: @ForgotMyGambits Hunters currently have a lot of skills. Will there be skill consolidation? #LOTRO
A21: JinJaah Yes. There is some skill consolidation to reduce the overall skill count to around 20.
A21a: Per specialization. Travel skills won't count towards that number. #LOTRO


Q24: @mavegibson Will there be dramatic changes to the skills we have, and will there be skills specific to our trait lines? #LOTRO
A24: All: Yes and yes!

Color me worried.

20 skills? One of the things that keeps me in this game is that I can't get used to the combat system of other games, where you have a small amount of skills.I love the versatility in the LOTRO combat system, and having a wide range of skills to play with....

Please don't ruin this.


Also, I didn't get my question answered but I think it's very important to the matter:

What happens to the current system of traiting freely? For example, right now, I can trait any 4 yellow traits that I want with any 3 blue. Will I still be able to do that?

[Thorgrum]

Q1: bgriggs: Are the current virtues and traits being incorporated into the new system at all? #LOTRO
A1: HoarseDev: Virtues will remain mostly the same. Traits are now completely rolled into the new system. #LOTRO

I'm relieved that virtues will remain "mostly" the same. I understood (or had a general idea based on the WS) what was going to happen with traits on the tree. Couple of things I couldn't find directly in the narrative.... I want to say upfront I didn't go through every post in the thread. First, virtues will remain "mostly" the same, is it a safe assumption that the slight changes will be due to increases based on the new level cap? (going from 16-18?) Second and most important: I have a toon who is traited exactly the way I want it for the purpose I use it. I don't want to change anything on it at all. Day 1 this rolls out will the current traits translate to a tree based skill (for example: will "barbed fury" +20% barbed arrow bleed damage) still be specified with that language on the tree somewhere, or are new names being assigned to trait skills?

[PKCrichton]

The condensing of our skills down to a list of 20 I find to be a bit worrisome personally. I can't think of how classes like Loremasters and Runekeepers could be condensed from their current lists of skills down to a mere 20. As it stands for LMs they have their couple of single target damage skills, their aoe damage skills, their multiple debuff skills, their crowd control skills, their warding circle, their couple of healing skills, their power skills and their pets(which I assume like hunter ports aren't included in the skill count). With RKs you have three different damage skill types Lightning, Fire and Frost, you have your healing skills and some misc skills for armor, power, etc. Other classes similarly have their attacking skills and then their threat or heal or crowd control or debuff or buff skills.

When we first heard that the class/skill/trait revamps would include some skill condensing again I went into my high level classes and tried to figure out what skills I could be condensed and still keep the uniqueness and diversity of our classes roles based on our traiting and honestly I couldn't find many skills that could be condensed without losing the unique roles that are created by the traiting for example as an LM to be Debuff/CC/Power or Heal/Pet or DPS or some amalgam thereof.

So what skill classifications are included in this list of 20 skills? Is it only the Damage and Heal skills or is it all skills Debuff, Buff, Threat, Crowd Control, Tricks, Traps, etc?

[BentoIce]

Apparently, I missed the memo declaring that "revamped" is the same thing as "thrown away".

If they're basing class trees on the mounted combat trees, a good guess would be 3. But that is as guess.

Edit: oops, grabbed the wrong quote! *sigh*

[Firemane0]

This is an example of people trying way too hard to read things into comments.

Are we adding a new class for Helm's Deep? No.

Then there's the reality of the larger impossible to answer questions which we usually ignore. Questions with "ever" or "never" in them.
Are we EVER going to add a new class? Great question. Maybe. Maybe Not. "Ever" is a really, incredibly long time. I'm going to go out on a limb and bet no one can answer a question like that about what they may or may not do at any point in the future.

Then put a little more thought into your responses then that. Your response was worded in such a way that someone could easily think this was a possibility, guess its a good thing I did not reply. Would really hate to have the community manager go out of his way to make me look like an ###. Reading too much into everything a dev posts is like breathing on gaming forums and you should know better then that.

[frickinmuck]

I hope not. That would make hunters too overpowered for me.

Also I asked this during the chat, but never got the answer. What type of consolidation/complete redoing of the traits/skills are being done to make the 20 skills doable for all. The first class that comes to mind is Lore Master. It seems like they will suffer because most of their current skills build on each other and they all serve a purpose.

Don't forget that there will be multiple trait trees, and some skills will be specific to particular trees chosen. So there is plenty of room for skills to be spread across multiple trees. For example, a CC LM tree might have cracked earth, and a DPS tree might not. People get skills based on the way they spend their points, so, as the devs stated, people will have the ability to hybridize their builds as well. Pick and choose - to some degree at least - which skills they get.

I'm basing these assumptions on what I've read, and also on my experience with EQ2, which I've played and has a similar tree system.

[BentoIce]

MMOs are such strange animals. You find one you really like, play it with great enthusiasm, and then the developers change everything you know and care about.

Ageed. I left EQ2 and never looked back when they completely revamped combat. I enjoyed playing the game the way I was playing it and had zero interest in re-learning from the ground up. To put in that kind of effort I might as well play a new game. So I did.

In that game I only had one character. In this game I play five different classes. I'm getting very very antsy at the thought of having to relearn them all.

[Tilting_at_Turbines]

I am cautiously optimistic. It should be interesting to see how they condense class skills down to 20. I'm not sure I could make the changes necessary to drop my number of lore-master skills from over 70 (not including travel skills) to about 20 per spec.

[DobbelB_EU]

Q5: banjolier: For players who spent TP to unlock trait slots, how will you convert our existing purchases to the new system? #LOTRO
A5: HoarseDev: Your specialization choice gives you access to bonuses as you spend points. #LOTRO
A5a: These are unlocked in the same way as the old slots and those purchases carry over to the new system. #LOTRO

I don't see how this works. We get some a list of traits to choose from, most gated by prouvious trait unlocks. We get a number of points by completing deeds and leveling up. Is there some limit of how many points we can spend? If skills get more tied to your trait setup. Does not having that slots give a bigger handicap as does now?



Another thing I'm wondering about: class and legendaries go into the new system, virtues are almost left untouched. What about racial traits?

[Grimdi]

Hmm, this devchat turned out better than I expected
About the reduction to ~20 skills: Do I assume correctly that more skills will be gated by traits than currently? So the total skill number per class won't change that much, but our current skillset is much more dependent on the active traits. If yes, how much consolidation will there be in the total number of skills?

[cossieuk]

I have many of concerns with these changes.

It the specialization you pick defines the role of the class, how will it effect captains as they dont really have a defined role.

Are some gambit combinations gated in the trait trees and if so wont this make playing a warden even harder as you will have to remember which gambits work with each build you have and which ones dont.

Will a RK still have access to healing skills when trait d for DPS.

Will a champ be able to switch to glory if they have traited for AOE damage or will the glory skill be locked as it is part of another tree.

[GrimbleGrumble]

The condensing of our skills down to a list of 20 I find to be a bit worrisome personally. I can't think of how classes like Loremasters and Runekeepers could be condensed from their current lists of skills down to a mere 20. As it stands for LMs they have their couple of single target damage skills, their aoe damage skills, their multiple debuff skills, their crowd control skills, their warding circle, their couple of healing skills, their power skills and their pets(which I assume like hunter ports aren't included in the skill count). With RKs you have three different damage skill types Lightning, Fire and Frost, you have your healing skills and some misc skills for armor, power, etc. Other classes similarly have their attacking skills and then their threat or heal or crowd control or debuff or buff skills.

When we first heard that the class/skill/trait revamps would include some skill condensing again I went into my high level classes and tried to figure out what skills I could be condensed and still keep the uniqueness and diversity of our classes roles based on our traiting and honestly I couldn't find many skills that could be condensed without losing the unique roles that are created by the traiting for example as an LM to be Debuff/CC/Power or Heal/Pet or DPS or some amalgam thereof.

So what skill classifications are included in this list of 20 skills? Is it only the Damage and Heal skills or is it all skills Debuff, Buff, Threat, Crowd Control, Tricks, Traps, etc?

I would imagine that it will go something like this: If you as a LM trait Red (MoNF), then you probably won't have half of your debuffing and healing skills. RK seems even more clear to me: If you are Red traited, you probably won't have many Fury of Storm skills or Words of Healing skills. I'm sure they will leave a couple of basic ones, but you probably won't have, for example, Epic for the Ages or Rousing Words on your bar, period.

Think about mounted combat, and if you haven't done what i'm about to say, I encourage you to try it out and verify it. My Guardian has two Mounted Combat builds-- Light and Heavy. Now, my bars for these two builds are entirely independent of each other. So, if you are traited Heavy, and you go all the way down the Red tree, you would have access to the skill Trample. However, if you switch to Light, then that skill is no longer available.

TL;DR I would imagine that we won't likely 'lose' very many skills (I'm talking about LM and RK specifically), but they will be gated behind particular Specializations. Healing RK won't have the same full list of skills as a Fury of Storm RK. Yellow LM will probably not have all the DPS skills that MoNF LM has. Etc, etc.

Maybe I'm wrong, I've been wrong already today so I wouldn't be surprised.

[Enfiladed]

I feel like we got a pretty good snapshot of what a post-HD hunter will be like, I just wish they had have given more examples from other classes. In my opinion, the hunter is probably the easiest class to conceptualize in this sort of system since they basically have a singular role with several 'supporting' options. What about less straightforward classes like LM and Captain? One can make assumptions based on the hunter answer, which would suggest trees are DPS/Survivability/Other (which seems super lazy and clunky for some classes), but without additional examples it's hard to know. Perhaps Hunter is the class most fleshed out at this point (totally scary thought) and that is why they gave no other examples. I do realize that twitter is not a great place to give in-depth answers, but if we could get a few follow ups to "Q20: @osmihu Can you give some specific examples of specializations?" beyond the hunter. That would be awesome and generally helpful in understanding how this is going to work for different classes. Yes, I get that there will be Dev Diaries at some point, but the pace of information up to this point has be unreasonably slow for a product expected at the end of Nov/beginning of Dec.

I am also curious about "A3: HoarseDev: You’ll earn a point every other level. You’ll also earn points from some deeds." Which deeds? It seems to be indicated later that you'll get skill points from class skill deeds, but what about landscape/virtue deeds? I dislike grinding landscape deeds but I also don't want to miss out on any points for my character to spend on traits. Will I have to go grind out all the deeds I skipped to maximize me character now?

[spelunker]

Now that the background questions are done, how about some more concrete info about what this all actually means?

How many points will a lvl 95 character have to spent? I'm guessing somewhere in the 50-60 range based on a point every other level plus many class deeds giving points.
How many points will it take to fill one of the 3 trees and/or how many total points would it take to fill every trait?


How do the trees actually work? Is this a linear tree with branches where I must get X trait to progress down the X branch to acquire trait Y, which is the one I actually want? Will there be multiple points to spend in a given trait, and will it be required to spend multiple points on trait X to unlock trait Y? How do we unlock legendary traits for each tree, do we simply have to spend 30 points or whatever tree to unlock the capstone Legendary, or must we unlock specific traits to open the Legendary?

About how many skills can we expect a given tree to unlock (if fully invested in the tree)? 2, 10? will it be significantly different for different classes and trees?

20 Skills for a given class seems REALLY low. What can you say, if anything, to allay my fear that these changes are simplifying classes as much as anything else? Speaking for my warden, there are exactly 2 gambits I don't ever use, or feel are an important part of my arsenal. I'm unsure how you can maintain what we are capable of providing in a given role while bringing our gambits down to 20ish, without consolidating effects, which is just simplification for the sake of simplification. This is a little more pertinent to me on warden, but looking over my skill bars on Guardian, 20 skills wouldn't really cut it there either, without effect consolidation.



I've much more to ask if the Devs continue to reply to this thread.

[Ithrien]

Of greater concern to me is exactly how on the fly respecing will work. At present if you respec in MC your skills get moved around. There aren't many of them and most are the same, so no big deal atm, but with the reduction to ~20 skills you can bet that each spec will have a good number of skills specific to it. The thought of getting all the skills in their proper places for my shortcuts/macros/oh-%$&# flailing mouse click every time I respec is annoying at best, potentially daunting if it is a role I play only rarely.

Of greater concern to me personally, is what ROLES will our toons be given? And how will these roles be incorporated into the mob/mechanics scheme of landscape, instance and Big Battle content.

Okay, so they say that the goal is to make each trait line as interesting and useful and viable (in whatever words they used, close enough) as any other tree/line...

My main - and the only toon I play on LOTRO, though I would consider myself as knowledgeable as is possible about the other classes without playing them each from 1 to cap - is a Loremaster.

I am a big fan of CC in MMOs, and the support role in general. This class (at 65, 75, and 85) has offered me the ability to provide VAST utility to any group that I join no matter how I trait, and almost always in the same ways. Mainly for these reasons:

I can always use DPS skills. Some are boosted by certain traits.

I can always use Debuffs on mobs, and buffs (Air-Lore, SI). Some have durations extended by yellow capstone, and with certain traits can increase the number of Max Targets and add additional effects.

I can always use CC skills (situationally, 2 of these are reduced by certain traits, additionally one is a non-capstone Legendary Trait). Traits themselves (not trait-set bonuses) only help in this by adding +5 targets to Herb-Lore with Deep Lore, and removal of Blinding Flash's induction with Fast Loader.

I can always use the skills Beacon of Hope and Water Lore to heal my party, and any LM can set-swap 4 Memory of the West or 4 H-Animal Friend to share flanks. I mention only these because traiting blue apart from Healer does not directly add anything to an LM's healing capabilities and in fact can cause the group to take more damage overall vs. permanent debuffs (and VERY similar healing output, since Improved Inner Flame and Improved Flanking are kinda moot - the only real benefit to any blue trait apart from Healer in regards to actually healing is the ten second CD reduction to Beacon of Hope by traiting Light of Hope.

I can't speak to what the changes will mean to my day-to-day gameplay, but I have high hopes, and am with great sorrow preparing to have them crushed.

I love to trait yellow for both the debuffs and the disgustingly wide array of not-reduced control skills at my disposal, this will be the first line that I use post HD because it is what I need to learn in order to perform my classes main role in raids.

But will yelllow even BE a viable role for LMs? In what content? Is this line being designed to function in any piece of 1-24man content?

I never unslot Harmony with Nature or Healer, the power-saving feature is nice, the more healing is nice, but what is REALLY important about both of these traits is the -% to corresponding skill inductions.

No matter your traits or your capstone-goals, being able to execute your skills faster (so using more skills, and being able to move again when induction/animation finishes) are essential to gameplay. In the conversion from trait-block/set effects to points-put-into-trees effects, I hope both are included in some form, or that inductions are regularized(?) so that the class does not become unplayable (for me) if choice or amount of available points prevent a player from being able to choose both.

In the current game, I can trait yellow and CC til the cows come and still offer everything that a "vanilla" LM has to offer. This is important for the LMs true role of support, which I find difficult to put directly into one tree, and am concerned what each line will truly mean for my character.

If I trait red/blue, will I retain any CC potential at all?

If I trait yellow, will I have any healing potential at all?

Is a red-line LM intended to be strictly a tactical Champion at last (by direct design, rather than the lack of CC-requiring content in the live game)?

Is a blue-line LM intended to be strictly a Green-pumpin' healbot?

What is going to happen to my debuff and crowd controlling potential across the board?

I want to play a CCing and debuffing, spot-healing, power sharing Lore-Master. I want this to be viable for all content.

I do not want my new blue-line to entirely remove all of the LM's potential to debuff and CC and deal (vanilla) LM dmage. I do not want my new red-line to entirely remove all of the LM's potential to debufff and CC and heal.

Each class has a main role.

Tanks are tanks. Healers are healers. DPSers are DPSers. Support is Support.

But will this be the case for my LM?

The yellow line for the LM is basically the "LM line". What red offers to us is more damage, what blue offers is healing. How much of what the LMs true role in this game will fit into those roles, and what becomes of the yellow?

"DPS" with red?

"Heals" with blue?

"Support" with yellow?

What am I?

:c

If I choose to play how the LM as its support role (I wil spend points into whatever trees necessary to meet that goal), will I be a waste of a slot to a group in most content because my damage will be weak(er than it could) and my heals... will I HAVE any heals?

Clearly, this would not fit into the twitter chat lol. Sorry for the long read.

[RockX]

So, the "20 skills" issue is something I'd like to address.

First, it is referring to skills which actively impact gameplay. Things such as teleports, pets, stances, and fluff skills (and probably another category which I'm not thinking of off the top of my head) will not count against that amount.

Second, the "20 skills" is not a hard and fast number, but more of a general guideline. You may end up with more or less, depending on your specialization.

Third, each class has a pool of general skills (skills we feel are important to all three specialization lines) and more specific skills. How you choose to invest your traits will have an impact on what skills are available to you. I'll use the Burglar as an example. Please bear in mind some of the specific skills I'm mentioning are new, and we'll discuss their impact at a later time.

Some general skills every single Burglar will eventually have access to include (but are not limited to): Riddle, Subtle Stab, Double-edged Strike, Reveal Weakness and Hide in Plain Sight. Now, if I choose to specialize as a Gambler, I'll immediately gain access to Lucky Strike and Hedge Your Bet. From here, I could completely fill in the Gambler tree, picking up skills such as Gambler's Advantage, Trip and All In. Or, I could choose to not invest all of my points in Gambler to pick up Stun Dust from the Quiet Knife line and Trick: Dust in the Eyes from the Mischief-maker line.

The exact number of skills you have will vary, based on how you choose to specialize your character and spend your trait points.

[Rhuvor]

I would imagine that it will go something like this: If you as a LM trait Red (MoNF), then you probably won't have half of your debuffing and healing skills. RK seems even more clear to me: If you are Red traited, you probably won't have many Fury of Storm skills or Words of Healing skills. I'm sure they will leave a couple of basic ones, but you probably won't have, for example, Epic for the Ages or Rousing Words on your bar, period.

Think about mounted combat, and if you haven't done what i'm about to say, I encourage you to try it out and verify it. My Guardian has two Mounted Combat builds-- Light and Heavy. Now, my bars for these two builds are entirely independent of each other. So, if you are traited Heavy, and you go all the way down the Red tree, you would have access to the skill Trample. However, if you switch to Light, then that skill is no longer available.

TL;DR I would imagine that we won't likely 'lose' very many skills (I'm talking about LM and RK specifically), but they will be gated behind particular Specializations. Healing RK won't have the same full list of skills as a Fury of Storm RK. Yellow LM will probably not have all the DPS skills that MoNF LM has. Etc, etc.

Maybe I'm wrong, I've been wrong already today so I wouldn't be surprised.

Based on the information we have received so far I think you are much more right than you are wrong. Thanks for the above examples regarding RKs and LMs.

[frickinmuck]

So, the "20 skills" issue is something I'd like to address.

First, it is referring to skills which actively impact gameplay. Things such as teleports, pets, stances, and fluff skills (and probably another category which I'm not thinking of off the top of my head) will not count against that amount.

Second, the "20 skills" is not a hard and fast number, but more of a general guideline. You may end up with more or less, depending on your specialization.

Third, each class has a pool of general skills (skills we feel are important to all three specialization lines) and more specific skills. How you choose to invest your traits will have an impact on what skills are available to you. I'll use the Burglar as an example. Please bear in mind some of the specific skills I'm mentioning are new, and we'll discuss their impact at a later time.

Some general skills every single Burglar will eventually have access to include (but are not limited to): Riddle, Subtle Stab, Double-edged Strike, Reveal Weakness and Hide in Plain Sight. Now, if I choose to specialize as a Gambler, I'll immediately gain access to Lucky Strike and Hedge Your Bet. From here, I could completely fill in the Burglar tree, picking up skills such as Gambler's Advantage, Trip and All In. Or, I could choose to not invest all of my points in Gambler to pick up Stun Dust from the Quiet Knife line and Trick: Dust in the Eyes from the Mischief-maker line.

The exact number of skills you have will vary, based on how you choose to specialize your character and spend your trait points.

Thanks for this. It's pretty much exactly what I was assuming. I think people sometimes just take things a lot too literally, and get worked up for no good reason.

Also, let's try to remember that a huge part of this will not come clear to us until we get a chance to actually use it and see for ourselves how the system works, and there's nothing wrong with that. We don't NEED to have all the answers right this minute. I'm OK with there being some mystery to it. I can wait until BR or release to have the rest of my questions answered, perhaps with a dev diary somewhere along the road as well.

[narainadun]

I really, really despise trait tree systems. They try to give you an appearance of choice, but inevitably force you to put skills into things you don't want or need in order to get the things you do. They are also min/max'er dreams come true, and your goal of differentiating members of the same class will last as long as it takes the min/max'ers to figure out what the best build is. Then we are exactly where we are now.

Unfortunately, nothing in the dev chat lead me to believe that this revamp is an improvement.

as much as i despise trait tree's as well, i must disagree. Lotro is unique in that the classes all can perform 3 different roles. Champs can be single target dps, AoE DPS, or extremely viable Tanks, RK can be Burst DPS, Heals, and Sustain DoT. There will be no "best build" because of the variety of things each class can perform. there will be a "best build" for each of the specific roles, and that will be maxed out corresponding trees, but other than that, there is no best build. That is the beauty of this. it will be unlike any other tree system out there, so Kudos for that, but i still hate this system.