TRANSCRIPT: Twitter Dev Chat August 21, 2013 - Class Changes

[spelunker]

I wouldn't have a problem with that; it evens seems fair but using the same skill as an example:

What they are saying is that how you trait will affect which skills you will have access to, so let's assume for a minute that if I'm traited deep into the red line, I don't get access to Water Lore or Beacon of Hope. That greatly decreases my utility in a fellowship compared to now.

If they decreased the effectiveness of skills depending on how we traited -as they do now, but more- I would be fine with that. A Lore Master's wardng circle, for example, is nearly useless when traited red, but great when traited yellow, our sticky gourd is poop unless we trait the capstone, our mezzes are short if we're in red line, etc.

That is perfectly fine by me, but taking skills is another thing. A nerf to some skills would have been more reasonable, but this is silly; I would rather see them develop content to challenge us instead of changing us for content to be challenging.

I completely agree with this. I should have said in my other post, what I was talking about was how I hope they handle things, not how I think they will handle things. I do believe we are getting skill pruning and consolidation for the sake of simplicity as much as anything else. Just about every class has a couple skills gated behind traiting right now, if they were to add new skills that are trait dependent, I think that would be fine, but if we're being dropped down into the range of 20ish skills after traiting, and losing skills we currently have available, its going to be a let-down for many people who play the 'advanced' classes in the game.

First I would like to say if you try to say a company is "insulting" you, whining about it doesn't help prove your point. The ~20 skills per spec is not because we can't handle more than 20 skills. It is to promote specialization and balance between classes. You'll be able to do almost everything you did before, but with much more potency. The only issue would be consolidation of LM skills. The rest is straight forward and easy to figure out. As a main hunter ~20 skills I can use is an improvement. The ones I actively use (excluding stances and hunter's focus) total up to 12. 8 or so more would be lovely. The rest of the classes you can see where your current skills can fall into these lines.

And as a main Warden, ~20 skills is decidedly worse. The ones I actively use total.... 45 off the top of my head (not in-game, so its probably safe to assume i forgot a few). If we want to only talk about specific stances/roles, my recklessness total would be around 34, Determination 39, assailment 27, as a rough estimate. This count is strictly actual gambits or cooldown skills, I've not padded the numbers with masteries, builders, the gambit execute skill, or any muster skills. Each has a separate use and function, but all bring something different, and important to changing conditions. Loremasters aren't the only class that will be adversely affected by these changes, and i'm sure at the very least burglars and Captains can chime in with similar anecdotes. I'm even hesitant about my Guard being limited to about 20 skills while tanking.

The issues of class specialization via trait trees is entirely separate from skill pruning or consolidation.

[Batf1nk]

It seems there's a need for clarification here. What some people are referring to as 'Hybrids'(the person talking about their LM in particular), is actually not a hybrid at all. That's a 'do everything' class. Just like a red traited Mini that can main heal group content, a Warden that can dance between moderate DPS and extreme survivability at will, or a Champ that can maintain strong survivability when traited DPS.

Personally, I don't like that my LM can serve as support, DPS and heals all at the same time, and function incredibly well at every one of them. If I want to serve as multiple roles, fine, but it should require not being top tier at any specific thing. Finally, I should note that Turbine has already stated that they still support hybrids, you will just be 'good' at each of those roles instead of 'awesome'.

Which is how it should be, IMO.

The things is though, is that LM's are not "Awesome" at heals and dps. They're only "good." The only thing LM's are awesome at is support.

[spelunker]

The things is though, is that LM's are not "Awesome" at heals and dps. They're only "good." The only thing LM's are awesome at is support.

this is a content issue. LMs might not be 'Awesome' at heals and dps, but they can fulfill both roles while completing T2C content in all but a small handful of instances.

[jnv7594]

First I would like to say if you try to say a company is "insulting" you, whining about it doesn't help prove your point. The ~20 skills per spec is not because we can't handle more than 20 skills. It is to promote specialization and balance between classes. You'll be able to do almost everything you did before, but with much more potency. The only issue would be consolidation of LM skills. The rest is straight forward and easy to figure out. As a main hunter ~20 skills I can use is an improvement. The ones I actively use (excluding stances and hunter's focus) total up to 12. 8 or so more would be lovely. The rest of the classes you can see where your current skills can fall into these lines.

Yes, but hunters are a basic class. You can't compare them to the advanced classes...that's apples to oranges. I could probably get by on using the 20 skills on my hunter sure. On my RK, LM, or Burg, not so much. You take the majority of their skills away and you are screwing over the classes. My LM is my main, and she has well over 20 skills, lol. I would have to sit down and count them, but I know it's up over 40 skills. I use nearly all of them at some point during combat. Even the ones I don't use often, I still need because they have gotten me out of a sticky situation a time or two. I also have a burg right now that's level 30, and she already has over 20 skills, and I use ALL of them with the exception of a couple toggles since I use Quiet Knife. I can't imagine, even at this point, taking any of these away, and the 20 skills are for max level, so someone at level 30 will have a lot less skills to use. I don't see how this will work for classes like LM, RK, and burgs...it won't. The only thing it will do is restrict them and take the fun out of them.

[Batf1nk]

this is a content issue. LMs might not be 'Awesome' at heals and dps, but they can fulfill both roles while completing T2C content in all but a small handful of instances.

Then that should be motivation to make better content instead of revamping classes right?

[Nyrion]

The things is though, is that LM's are not "Awesome" at heals and dps. They're only "good." The only thing LM's are awesome at is support.

Water Lore is not just 'good', and you must not have seen what a DPS LM can do. Their burst damage is almost unrivalled. Granted their sustained DPS is rather lower, but it's still potent.

Point is, no player should be able to do so much on their own, not in my view at least.

[spelunker]

Then that should be motivation to make better content instead of revamping classes right?

Correct.

I understand the motivation, and generally agree with the concept of traiting to promote more specialization, but it isn't really a necessary change thats needed or looked for. We want fun content, not mind-numbing landscape quests and faceroll instances. Solve this part and issues like classes being able to 'do it all' fall by the wayside (moors aside).

[Qwyxzl]

The things is though, is that LM's are not "Awesome" at heals and dps. They're only "good." The only thing LM's are awesome at is support.

Yes, while LMs are not at the top of the heap in terms of healers or dpsers they are still too good at doing both at the same time, all while still having some ability to CC. If we rate on a scale of 1 to 10 it is possible for an LM to get 8 in dps, 8 in heals and 6 in cc all at the same time. If things work out the way that I hope they work out (and this is the dev's stated intentions based on them wanting us to make "hard choices") then you could get to 10 in dps but you have to go down to 5 in heals and 5 in cc. Note all numbers made up and used in merely an illustrative way. I dont want to see the total power lowered but certain classes really can do it all and that does need to change.

[DanteIL]

While I appreciate the recent 20Qs for the class changes and for the Big Battles instances, I have to say that I am really frustrated by the way that Turbine is slooowly parcelling out information in advance of Helm's Deep. They seem unwilling or unable to share anything concrete, and instead give out just enough information to send everyone into a tizzy. I certainly hope that beta opens up soon (either public or private) so that some of these changes/additions can be tried out and fully understood for real. In the meantime all we are left with is fruitless speculation and fear-mongering.

[Batf1nk]

Yes, while LMs are not at the top of the heap in terms of healers or dpsers they are still too good at doing both at the same time, all while still having some ability to CC. If we rate on a scale of 1 to 10 it is possible for an LM to get 8 in dps, 8 in heals and 6 in cc all at the same time. If things work out the way that I hope they work out (and this is the dev's stated intentions based on them wanting us to make "hard choices") then you could get to 10 in dps but you have to go down to 5 in heals and 5 in cc. Note all numbers made up and used in merely an illustrative way. I dont want to see the total power lowered but certain classes really can do it all and that does need to change.

LM's should be able to get to 8 in dps max. If you want to dps, roll a class meant for dps. And the heals I would only put at like a 6. LM's are at least 4th down in the pecking order when it comes to heals. Yes water lore is neat and all, but the induction/animation is fairly long. The LM is a good example of possibly being good at too many things at once, but that doesn't mean you need to punish all classes for it.

[jnv7594]

Water Lore is not just 'good', and you must not have seen what a DPS LM can do. Their burst damage is almost unrivalled. Granted their sustained DPS is rather lower, but it's still potent.

Point is, no player should be able to do so much on their own, not in my view at least.

So you would rather us all have to rely on other players? That's not always possible considering the amount of players has gone way down. I had to switch my main server and leave my LM behind because it was like a ghost town there. Plus, some people like to solo. I solo my way through most of the game.

[Batf1nk]

Also, I'm still wondering if we will be able to see the skill trees of other players when we inspect them in game. Very important for leading PUG raids.

[Batf1nk]

So you would rather us all have to rely on other players? That's not always possible considering the amount of players has gone way down. I had to switch my main server and leave my LM behind because it was like a ghost town there. Plus, some people like to solo. I solo my way through most of the game.

You don't need the best dps in the game to solo. Especially with the tools the LM has to deal with mobs that other classes don't have. So yes, I would rely on other classes for the best dps, because the only time when you need the best dps is in groups.

[Qwyxzl]

LM's should be able to get to 8 in dps max. If you want to dps, roll a class meant for dps. And the heals I would only put at like a 6. LM's are at least 4th down in the pecking order when it comes to heals. Yes water lore is neat and all, but the induction/animation is fairly long. The LM is a good example of possibly being good at too many things at once, but that doesn't mean you need to punish all classes for it.

First, under certain circumstances LM is in the top 2 for dps. Second, while they may be 4th in heals, they are good enough to heal an entire 6 man group. And water lore is not just neat, it is a great skill. We have yet to see if any of the non do it all set ups actually get punished. It is actually possible that turbine might deliver what they think they are going to.

[Qwyxzl]

So you would rather us all have to rely on other players? That's not always possible considering the amount of players has gone way down. I had to switch my main server and leave my LM behind because it was like a ghost town there. Plus, some people like to solo. I solo my way through most of the game.

For group content, yes. I think it should be a requirement that you have to rely on other players when doing content designed for multiple people. For solo landscape, no.

[Elemiire]

Guys, Lore Masters can do just fine without water lore.

Hell, remove it from the game completely and be done with it. I got through just fine before I had it - and that was before the great nerfs to some areas - and the class is still great without it.

Furthermore, we're getting way out of focus here; this thread isn't about what a certain class can or can't do. Open a thread in the LM forums and discuss that. Done.

Now let's get back to what really matters.

[jnv7594]

You don't need the best dps in the game to solo. Especially with the tools the LM has to deal with mobs that other classes don't have. So yes, I would rely on other classes for the best dps, because the only time when you need the best dps is in groups.

Yes, and now those tools will be stripped down thanks to this new system. I was once told by another player that a LM is the most optional class in grouping. Looks like they will be even more optional now considering many will probably go with the DPS build since we now have to choose, and like you said, other classes will be relied on for better DPS. If choosing a DPS focus is going to hurt my chances in finding a group, then that's a problem. I love traiting for DPS on my LM. The high burst DPS is awesome for soloing, but I also rely a lot on crowd control and heals during more sustained fights. I also like the option of using my bog lurker sometimes because, in my opinion, it is one of the best pets in the game (if not the best). The high flank rate allows for a lot of healing with advanced wizards fire, which offsets the lower DPS that make the fights a bit longer, and they do a large amount of damage. But you can't use the Bog Lurker if you are traited for DPS. It is a legendary skill that you can only access through another line...one more drawback with having to stick with a specific trait line.

[jnv7594]

Guys, Lore Masters can do just fine without water lore.

Hell, remove it from the game completely and be done with it. I got through just fine before I had it - and that was before the great nerfs to some areas - and the class is still great without it.

Furthermore, we're getting way out of focus here; this thread isn't about what a certain class can or can't do. Open a thread in the LM forums and discuss that. Done.

Now let's get back to what really matters.

I'm not just talking about the LM class. I'm talking about how these changes will affect the class, so it is related to this thread. To me how these changes will effect my main class DOES matter. If it doesn't matter to you, then so be it, but class specific comments relating to the main post should be allowed to be posted here.

[Elemiire]

I'm not just talking about the LM class. I'm talking about how these changes will affect the class, so it is related to this thread. To me how these changes will effect my main class DOES matter. If it doesn't matter to you, then so be it, but class specific comments relating to the main post should be allowed to be posted here.

That was a general comment directed to everyone, not you.

Also, if you bothered reading a little more you would see that I have also been arguing against this because I too have a Lore Master.

Good day, and maybe read a little more next time before you make uninformed comments like that one.

[Rimmer_Dall]

Any work being done on FMs......specific to the delay involved...and input method. They seem long forgotten.

It would be nice to see better benefits from them (maybe a group wide 10 second dev crit chance% buff), or a situation when a group actually needed to use one.

I only ask cuz I have a burg. 3 skill directly tied to FMs seems kinda useless at the moment.

[TinDragon]

If I understand it correctly a minstrel will have an easier time to go from solo questing to jumping into an instance or raid as a healer? As it is now I have to let the group wait while I go switch at a bard and read all the trait info so I can figure out which traits to switch to for healing. Can be nice to have it already set so you can go join the others right away

It'll be faster if you're relatively static with your traits (as in, you always use the same 5b2r in groups and the same 5r2b in solo, or whatever). Since it saves those, you won't have to look at each trait to see what you want.
If you tend to vary your builds (for example, sometimes you group with a mixture of red and blue, other times with a mix of yellow and blue) it will probably take longer, especially if you wanna change just one trait from your normal setup.

For example, on my LM, I use nearly every skill at some point.

Do you use every skill in every fight? If you don't, just flip between builds. Have a build for CC, when you don't need CC flip to a different build that doesn't include your CC skills. Have a build for debuffs, since damage isn't as important in that role get rid of some of your damaging skills. 99% chance Burning Embers will be one of the default skills, so you'll always have that.
It's seriously not the end of the world, and it's not like if you choose not to use some skill in a certain build that you'll never see that skill again.

[jnv7594]

That was a general comment directed to everyone, not you.

Also, if you bothered reading a little more you would see that I have also been arguing against this because I too have a Lore Master.

Good day, and maybe read a little more next time before you make uninformed comments like that one.

Um, I'm not blind. I can see your picture, and I have read all the posts. Even your picture makes it obvious that you're a LM, so you can lay off treating me like I'm an idiot and you are the grand master. Did I keep track of all your specific posts? No. In the grand scheme, I don't know you, so keeping track of EVERY post you make is not high on my list of priorities. They all blend together after reading nine pages of them. Even though I am a long time player, I have avoided the forum all this time. So even if you are some popular poster on here to regulars, you are just another poster to me. Yes, your comment was general, which means it was aimed at everyone, including myself since I was in that conversation. The fact that you made a shoot down comment about talking about specific classes seemed like it wasn't of importance to you, regardless if you play the class or not, especially since you wanted people to stop focusing on the LM class and get back to what was "important." You can stop with the haughty attitude now. If YOU had been paying attention, you would have seen that in a post I made just recently, I said I had read all the comments.

[TinDragon]

Um, I'm not blind. I can see your picture, and I have read all the posts. Even your picture makes it obvious that you're a LM, so you can lay off treating me like I'm an idiot and you are the grand master. Did I keep track of all your specific posts? No. In the grand scheme, I don't know you, so keeping track of EVERY post you make is not high on my list of priorities. They all blend together after reading nine pages of them. Yes, your comment was general, which means it was aimed at everyone, including myself since I was in that conversation. The fact that you made a shoot down comment about talking about specific classes seemed like it wasn't of importance to you, regardless if you play the class or not, especially since you wanted people to stop focusing on the LM class and get back to what was "important." You can stop with the haughty attitude now. If YOU had been paying attention, you would have seen that in a post I made just recently, I said I had read all the comments.

I can see why you never come to the forums. You're not much of a people person, are you?

[jnv7594]

I can see why you never come to the forums. You're not much of a people person, are you?

I could say the same of you. I just tell it like it is. Sorry if you can't handle it. I'm done with you now and I'm done with this game. Enjoy...

[bohbashum]

Here's an idea: make challenging content instead of changing the classes.

Shocking, I know... but Turbine has done it before though, and they could do it again.

Honestly, I don't think they're doing this for that reason, but what do I know?

BfE, smaug and flight was there idea of tough. players wiped 2/3 of them unexpectedly quickly. while the last ones hardest bit is the lag of extra waves and how puddles wern't balanced quite right, making one of the possible outcomes so much harder than the rest.

our classes can do too much atm. dps and healing is insane. tanks take a rediculas amount of damage compared to dps classes. so maybe fixing the classes is an easier way to do it at this point to make sure GROUP content is more about working as a GROUP.

concidering turbine and other mmo's have said making instance clusters to be the longest and hardest development cycle, I wouldn't be surprised if nurfing us (making classes more pure) is just as viable a solution as buffing the instances.

admit it, our tools are old... so many classes have just not kept up to date well. so glad we're finily getting a huge all class overhaul to bring to fresh light in the game. and no, it's not just change for change sake...