Massively Helm's Deep news and pictures!!!

[jnv7594]

Bye, bye LOTRO. Awesome game while it lasted, but I guess it's time to move on. Hope everyone that stays has fun...tree system just isn't my thing. I'm done.

[LagunaD]

Trying to understand better what we see in the updated screenshot linked by Sapience.

Apparently (according to Sapience) the numbered column of icons on the RHS are different specs.

But what is the column of un-numbered icons (all of which contain what looks like a shield) on the far LHS, I wonder?

My first impression is that the trait tree looks extremely sparse for 95 levels of character advancement.

The image shows six "tiers" of talents, plus what is probably a capstone for the trait line. If this is all there is, that would suggest it takes 15 levels to advance through a single tier.

So I'm wondering if there are "super-tiers" such that what we see is only part of the full tree for the LM (in which case the shield-like icons on the left would have a purpose).

Edit: Looking at it some more, perhaps the icons on the left select Virtues/Racials as opposed to class traits...?

[Rainith]

Trying to understand better what we see in the updated screenshot linked by Sapience.

Apparently (according to Sapience) the numbered column of icons on the RHS are different specs.

But what is the column of un-numbered icons (all of which contain what looks like a shield) on the far LHS, I wonder?

My first impression is that the trait tree looks extremely sparse for 95 levels of character advancement.

The image shows six "tiers" of talents, plus what is probably a capstone for the trait line. If this is all there is, that would suggest it takes 15 levels to advance through a single tier.

So I'm wondering if there are "super-tiers" such that what we see is only part of the full tree for the LM (in which case the shield-like icons on the left would have a purpose).

Edit: Looking at it some more, perhaps the icons on the left select Virtues/Racials as opposed to class traits...?

I think that the icons on the left represent skills / traits / something that unlock the deeper to trait into that specific traitline. Notice the colored "arrow" that being filled in and is pointing down that the icons are situated on. I'm guessing that as you trait into that traitline that "arrow" (or whatever you'd like to call it, ribbon, whatever) fills in, as the fill in encompasses an icon, you unlock it.

[LagunaD]

I think that the icons on the left represent skills / traits / something that unlock the deeper to trait into that specific traitline. Notice the colored "arrow" that being filled in and is pointing down that the icons are situated on. I'm guessing that as you trait into that traitline that "arrow" (or whatever you'd like to call it, ribbon, whatever) fills in, as the fill in encompasses an icon, you unlock it.

You are talking about a different part of the graphic.

I am talking about the 3 icons that look like a shield, on the very left side. The topmost is to the left of the "Class Traits" label.

Edit: Looking at the original Massively images, it appears those 6 tiers are probably all there is. The LM they are playing in their walk-through is near max level, and has not quite filled in the MoNF tree.

One tier every 15 levels seems...very underwhelming.

[robbie1435]

Check my avatar. I play a hunter. I do have an almost capped LM (I need to stop being lazy about it and get it finished).

That said, the image is actually from the image pack we sent to all the press who were present (wasn't just Massively) on the call and stream. Not sure why they used a placeholder.

Will probably not get an answer, but which server do you mainly play on, Sapience?

[thefamilyosc]

I am talking about the 3 icons that look like a shield, on the very left side.

The way they're oriented they look like tabs, I'd assume clicking either of the other two would bring forward the virtue tab or the race trait tab. Could be wrong about the nature of the 2 tabs, but I'd bet very good money they're nav aids ala internet browser tabs.

[Belnavar]

The upcoming features sound very interesting.

I am cautiously optimistic about the class changes. I was initially sceptical about these, as I thought the classes would be dumbed down too much, but each piece of information suggests otherwise. It seems the trait trees have a lot more going on than the current set up of choosing 5 of 8 in red/yellow/blue, and 2 of another.

For those complaining about lost customisation, I wonder why people consider the current trait system better. At the moment we already have numerous cookie-cutter builds. Group captains have to be at least 5 in Hands of Healing, and they generally only change to 5 dps when soloing. The same applies to most other classes. There are healing lines, dps lines, tanking lines, and so forth - and due to the fact that bonuses are locked behind going 2, 3, 4, or 5 deep with one line, it encourages most players to adopt a certain type of build.

From what the images show, it seems like there will be more potential choice - though cookie-cutter builds are likely to remain, regardless of what Turbine does (because players find what is considered an ideal way to play a class for a particular end, and that becomes promulgated quickly).

One thing I do like, and which is long awaited, is the class respecs. If I can finally switch from healing to dps traits on the move, I am a happy player.

-Bel

[LagunaD]

From what the images show, it seems like there will be more potential choice

That's far from clear, to me. Of course, we have very little solid information.

In the Massively image, the LM is close to, or at, max level, and has only enough talent points to fill a single tree. It appears to require 31 points (out of ~40 total available?) to unlock the capstone of a trait line. That doesn't leave much of anything for off-spec.

Moreover, it sounds like access to certain abilities may be gated with the trees, so you will have fewer abilities overall, and much more narrowly focused.

While idea of Rift-like talent trees could work, what I've seen so far of the implementation (admittedly lacking in details) concerns me.

[thefamilyosc]

That's far from clear, to me. Of course, we have very little solid information.

In the Massively image, the LM is close to, or at, max level, and has only enough talent points to fill a single tree. It appears to require 31 points (out of ~40 total available?) to unlock the capstone of a trait line. That doesn't leave much of anything for off-spec.

As far as the total goes, I noticed the same thing, but then I realized that they were using a stock LM for their example. Most likely auto levelled, probably just to 85, given no class deed completion pts(assuming they had made it in at this pt, my understanding was this info went out to a while ago). With 1 pt every 2 levels we SHOULD have 47-48 base pts at lvl 95. Assuming that we get 1 pt per class deed/legendary deed...3 trait lines x 8 trait deeds per + 7 legendary trait deeds...we could very easily have 80ish pts with total completion. That would/could give us approximately 1.5 trees completed. Not saying this is the number, but definitely within the realm of reason.

[LagunaD]

As far as the total goes, I noticed the same thing, but then I realized that they were using a stock LM for their example. Most likely auto levelled, probably just to 85, given no class deed completion pts(assuming they had made it in at this pt, my understanding was this info went out to a while ago). With 1 pt every 2 levels we SHOULD have 47-48 base pts at lvl 95. Assuming that we get 1 pt per class deed/legendary deed...3 trait lines x 8 trait deeds per + 7 legendary trait deeds...we could very easily have 80ish pts with total completion. That would/could give us approximately 1.5 trees completed. Not saying this is the number, but definitely within the realm of reason.

Well, I doubt you start getting trait points at Level 1; I'd guess probably starting at level 10 or 15 (tying it to the first class quest would make some sense). Starting at Level 15 would give the 40 points the Massively LM has, assuming they are Level 95.

We don't know much about the trait deeds; the twitter transcript does mention that choosing a specialization will "affect the cost of traits as you spend them"; so traits outside the specialization may cost more.

I guess we'll just have to wait for more info; but my initial impression that the trait trees look pretty sparse for 95 levels of character advancement remains...

[Eartholloth]

Will probably not get an answer, but which server do you mainly play on, Sapience?

You really expect him to tell you that???

[Wilkens]

You're neglecting that too, because it's rather out of character for the Rohirrim to have siege engines. It's not a straightforward question of prudence or competence, there's also the need to have the requisite technical savvy in military engineering. That's one likely reason why Tolkien didn't mention them at Helm's Deep, and also why he had Sauron's lot using massive trebuchets during the siege of Minas Tirith (going by the description of projectiles being hurled very high, way over the walls into the city behind) without the Gondorians apparently being able to respond in kind.

It fits the game, though, if only because Turbine have always been cavalier about the war-gear in use - hence all the plate armour, two-handed swords, crossbows and so on, so it's not worth arguing about a catapult or two. So it's understandable on that basis, but lore-wise nope, it's a non-starter even if you try to dodge around it and look at character. (And for that matter Turbine's Edoras is way too big and grand to be in character, either, but then they always make places like that madly huge and showy so no change there).

If you go in to the extended bits of the legendarium, I'm thinking specifically of Unfinished Tales, and you look in to some of the notes on the Rohirrim you'll note that reference is repeatedly made that they traded arms with Gondor rather frequently and were availed of the forges and other military technology of Gondor which itself was well skilled in seigecraft. In other words there is no doubt that the Rohirrim are both well aware of and supplied with the materiele for seigcraft. That they continue to focus on mounted combat is obvious but for any army which also has a tradition of foot soldiers (note the mentions of foot levies in the Westfold in regards to the history of the Battle(s) of the Ford) they would certainly have taken advantage of any tools of seigcraft at hand in their defended strongholds.

[thefamilyosc]

Well, I doubt you start getting trait points at Level 1; I'd guess probably starting at level 10 or 15 (tying it to the first class quest would make some sense). Starting at Level 15 would give the 40 points the Massively LM has, assuming they are Level 95.

We don't know much about the trait deeds; the twitter transcript does mention that choosing a specialization will "affect the cost of traits as you spend them"; so traits outside the specialization may cost more.

I guess we'll just have to wait for more info; but my initial impression that the trait trees look pretty sparse for 95 levels of character advancement remains...

They were pretty explicit about wanting the feeling of progress to be pretty immediate for new players as they levelled. It may indeed start later, but my bet is toons will get their first pt at lvl 3. Costs outside spec are doubled, so if we assume ~40ish pts to truly max a tree, we'd have 40 pts to spend on other trees at 2pts cost per 1pt trait gain.

[bohbashum]

To me, though, these trees yet reek of dubious change for the sake of change- a "feature" which isn't much of one- but only offered when an expansion is looming and such "features" are expected.

we've been told a few reasons for the update. but I admit, i not exactly why a tree trait system over other alternatives (what other alternatives? I dunno...)

explinations have been popping around the big biggest one on the twitter page ages ago mentioned "we believe our current classes can do too much, instances will feel harder in our new class designs" or something along those lines.

secondly, you have the quote from massively which nicely explains it too.

"The team had grown unhappy with two major observations regarding class development: that the early game was too unfocused and lacked choices when it came to class builds, and that the late game ended up featuring classes that were all good at more or less the same things. Hence the desire to give meaningful choices early on with an emphasis on creating memorable and focused builds."

there not changing it just for change. the classes (not just traits...) are not balanced well and the hybrid class designs are no longer the focus. the developers and designers play lotro to, there not changing it just to annoy people, they probably honestly believe this will make the game more enjoyable for it's market. I'm not just siding with them because I feel there profession oppinion is highly valid, but we're not even in a buffet system anymore. the set bonuses are basically a ######## tree system. no point haveing a half baked system. so either full buffet or full tree imo, and they seem to have chosen.

do not offer more choices than what we have for traiting now

where is the grand choice in our current trait system?

so, I could easily do a whole play session with 2 trait set ups. 1 just for tanking, 1 for dps. and thats warden, probably one of the most up to date classes. playing a hunter or burglar and I might as well never retrait when I'm doing PvE. it's so much more cookie cutter than people seem to be making out.

please, tell me your class, lets get a deep descussion on choice. I'll start figuring out the maths of it if people start complying.

iinc, there are 4586471424 (24 to the power of 7, correct me if I'm wrong) combinations in the current buffet system. many of those are just in a differant order. also there would be repeated traits. but how many of those do people actually use. 1? 2? 10? so how many was the design? maybe we could fix it! still, thats maybe 6-9 veriations at max. and still, warden/RK who probably use the lines to the max still have very cookie cutter traits compared to others

with the 52 points we see with tree system, (snip pointless info), thats already 6 core veriations of traits. 9 if you count that you might mix your secondary traits up (like 5red, 1blue, 1yellow kinda) with a large variation of distribution to how much you split up your traits bewteen your main line and second line and where in those lines you actually spend them. go back and look at the picture, how many did he not max while going for the cap? a full blue LM can still be slightly differant to another blue LM by >10 points spent which could mean a lot.

which one, in acutal play, has more viable choices?

would love any other maths boffins to correct me or help me, late at night I'm probably wrong.

[LagunaD]

iinc, there are 4586471424 (24 to the power of 7, correct me if I'm wrong) combinations in the current buffet system.

You are wrong.

There are 346104 unique ways of combining each class's (non-legendary) class traits.

24!/(7! * 17!) = 346104

Due to capstones (which require 5+ class traits), the total number of combinations (class + legendary) is a bit harder to work out.

There are 346104 * 4 = 1384416 unique class + legendary trait configurations that don't involve a capstone legendary

There are an additional 3 * [(8!/(5! * 3!))*(16!/(14!*2!))+(8!/(6!*2!))*16+8] * (4!/(2!*2!)) = 3*[56*120 + 28*16+8]*6 = 3*7176*6 = 129168 ways of traiting involving a capstone legendary.

So the total is 1513584 unique class+legendary trait builds for each class currently.

[Nyrion]

The fault lies with the persons responsible for creating and releasing a mock-up featuring the most ill-chosen icon in the game. The lack of situational awareness by the ones´ responsible is baffling. Cant blame the press for picking up the ball and running with it.

When you´re being so super-protective of all specifics and then mess up your grand first peek, thats just funny.

Anyway, The potential for goodness is there. I actually have no problem with increasing character limitations again. Just hope the new dev guard can pull it off. Not impressed at all with the look of the fortress - I know this is a tired old engine, but this fortress looks like the venerable Quake II. Lets hope it gets a glimpse of life before release.

Not solely. Yes, the icons were poorly chosen, but according to Sapience the press were explicitly told that the icons were placeholders. That particular piece of info was 'conveniently' left out of the Massively article. Intentional to get more 'controversy'? Wouldn't be surprised, although the updated version is up there now.

[GrimbleGrumble]

You're neglecting that too, because it's rather out of character for the Rohirrim to have siege engines. It's not a straightforward question of prudence or competence, there's also the need to have the requisite technical savvy in military engineering. That's one likely reason why Tolkien didn't mention them at Helm's Deep, and also why he had Sauron's lot using massive trebuchets during the siege of Minas Tirith (going by the description of projectiles being hurled very high, way over the walls into the city behind) without the Gondorians apparently being able to respond in kind.

It fits the game, though, if only because Turbine have always been cavalier about the war-gear in use - hence all the plate armour, two-handed swords, crossbows and so on, so it's not worth arguing about a catapult or two. So it's understandable on that basis, but lore-wise nope, it's a non-starter even if you try to dodge around it and look at character. (And for that matter Turbine's Edoras is way too big and grand to be in character, either, but then they always make places like that madly huge and showy so no change there).

Someone can correct me if I am mistaken, or back me up if I am correct:

In Volume VIII of The History of Middle Earth "The War of the Ring," there are early draft versions and outlines of the Helm's Deep battle. If I am recalling correctly, some of these did in fact contain reference to the Rohirrim using catapults. Again, I may be wrong, but I think it was in there.

[Fralin]

The housing update is not part of the expansion. That doesn't mean we aren't still planning on making changes this year (after the expansion launches).

My question is simply is there enough time to do that?

[Elithandir]

My question is simply is there enough time to do that?

Depends upon the extent of the changes, I suppose. From what I've heard its more akin to tweaking than revamping.

That said, a great influence will be the expansion launch. If there's a few bugs deemed to be urgent and/or game-breaking then it will be all hands on deck.

I'd place odds at fifty fifty. We haven't even seen a beta yet, we don't know what state HD is in. In theory, given the extended time they've had to work on it, it should be rather more polished than previous betas; plus the council should be pushing for major bugs to be sorted before anything resembling an open (or non-NDA) beta; bad bugs are bad publicity.

It's a waiting game, but I'm thinking that early next year is far more likely.

They were pretty explicit about wanting the feeling of progress to be pretty immediate for new players as they levelled. It may indeed start later, but my bet is toons will get their first pt at lvl 3. Costs outside spec are doubled, so if we assume ~40ish pts to truly max a tree, we'd have 40 pts to spend on other trees at 2pts cost per 1pt trait gain.

See, I'm thinking it's the ideal thing to be tied in to the novice trait we receive after the opening instance - but at the same time it will be a lot more useful for players to get up to speed in a starting instance. You don't want to present a new player with a wealth of stats and decisions early on, but you can tempt them with future skills and traits; as well as offering an introduction on how their class will play in the future.

It will help the new player, without opinions on the old system to colour their memory, if it happened in the relatively safe and secure intro. If trait costs were waived in that instance, all the better.

[Rainothon]

I am looking very much forward to the new books of the Epic. Great to get more interaction with Aragon. Oh and new cosmetics! Yummies.

The class changes, well, there'll be some adaptation to change. As a champion I'll likely lose some things and gain some new things. It remains to be tried out in game actually. It's not as much about tree or trait to me, it's a lot more about 'how it plays'. Staring at trees/traits is like 1% of my gameplay, combat is substantially more. The animation changes may turn out meaning more to me than the trees - is that a wierd thing to say?

There's just one thing at this point that's not settling right with me at this time. It's the look of the Hornburg. I must keep in mind I'm looking at low-res screenshots that likely still veil some of the Burg itself. But still, here's where I think there's room for improvement:
- The stonework looks way, way too dark and "feels evil". It's almost like something from Angmar, and not from the good side of it. Make it a tad darker and sharpen the protruding elements and you're working towards the Black Gate. I think Peter Jackson actually got it right, his Hornburg looks like a fortress of powers of Good, not of the Dark.
- The wall looks too low, or at least not imposing enough. Maybe it's because of the lack of smoothness rather than a percieved lack of height?
- The wall's protruding elements protrude too much.

Maybe I'm just biased/spoiled by the movie? There's that scene where you see the Hornburg, nestled at the foot of the mountains, bathing in sunlight. Right at that moment the movie captures the very greatness of the Hornburg. You just see it has never been taken and can't see how anyone will. How it is indeed a bastion of Hope and Safety. I'm lacking that feeling with these leaked low res, probably not taken at the best kodak moment screenshots.

Oh, now that I think of this: weather. The first time I see the Hornburg not yet under siege, please make it a blistering sunny day. Then bring thunder and rain when it's under siege. You probably thought of this, but it's something theatrical that really sets the stage. I know you can do this.

Anyway, I hope this feedback somehow reaches the artists doing this artwork.

[Celebrawn]

The upcoming features sound very interesting.

I am cautiously optimistic about the class changes. I was initially sceptical about these, as I thought the classes would be dumbed down too much, but each piece of information suggests otherwise. It seems the trait trees have a lot more going on than the current set up of choosing 5 of 8 in red/yellow/blue, and 2 of another.

For those complaining about lost customisation, I wonder why people consider the current trait system better. At the moment we already have numerous cookie-cutter builds. Group captains have to be at least 5 in Hands of Healing, and they generally only change to 5 dps when soloing. The same applies to most other classes. There are healing lines, dps lines, tanking lines, and so forth - and due to the fact that bonuses are locked behind going 2, 3, 4, or 5 deep with one line, it encourages most players to adopt a certain type of build.

From what the images show, it seems like there will be more potential choice - though cookie-cutter builds are likely to remain, regardless of what Turbine does (because players find what is considered an ideal way to play a class for a particular end, and that becomes promulgated quickly).

One thing I do like, and which is long awaited, is the class respecs. If I can finally switch from healing to dps traits on the move, I am a happy player.

-Bel

The thing I'm worried about is how many DPS skills will become nerfed or unavailable to use if you trait for healing, and vise-versa. I read that there will be less skills and consolidated skills. I'm just wondering how this is going to nerf the classes overall. Will we have to go more specialized now with less potential to mix it up? I guess we'll see.

And about the shots of Helm's Deep. I don't know but does it seem a little ..ornate? I know the argument that this game is about the books and not the movies, but I think PJ got it pretty close on this one, and is this going a different direction just to be different than the movie? It's not bad though.

[bohbashum]

You are wrong.

There are 346104 unique ways of combining each class's (non-legendary) class traits.

24!/(7! * 17!) = 346104

Due to capstones (which require 5+ class traits), the total number of combinations (class + legendary) is a bit harder to work out.

There are 346104 * 4 = 1384416 unique class + legendary trait configurations that don't involve a capstone legendary

There are an additional 3 * [(8!/(5! * 3!))*(16!/(14!*2!))+(8!/(6!*2!))*16+8] * (4!/(2!*2!)) = 3*[56*120 + 28*16+8]*6 = 3*7176*6 = 129168 ways of traiting involving a capstone legendary.

So the total is 1513584 unique class+legendary trait builds for each class currently.

epic!

have some math rep +1

I thought it was too easy to be right. late night. but thank you for clarifying. no idea how to truely made an idea of how many true veriations on the tree system we saw other than counting it out tbh.

[Lyllie]

I am more than disapointed that we now learn that despite official hints of housing revamp that there will be none. Although I have heard rumours of crafting instances in neighbourhoods which I think is pretty lame if it is the only further "up-date" beyond the restoration of the original mechanism of forclosing on rent indebited homes.

[thefamilyosc]

I am more than disapointed that we now learn that despite official hints of housing revamp that there will be none. Although I have heard rumours of crafting instances in neighbourhoods which I think is pretty lame if it is the only further "up-date" beyond the restoration of the original mechanism of forclosing on rent indebited homes.

You really need to start reading things more thoroughly and not letting your mind run off with your attention the moment you hear something. They've always stated that the housing changes were coming, that they would see a more staggered release(escrow and forclosure changes already), and that we wouldn't see the bulk of said changes until AFTER HD. In this thread alone Sapience posted that the housing changes are still coming. We're getting the housing revamp. They're not renegging. The changes may not be as awesomely sweeping as you'd like, but if you'd been reading for the past many months you'd have known that already.

[Kaynith]

Not sure i understand.

A lot of minis heal currently with 4y/3b. Some use 4b/3y. Some like the blue traits.
I like my 4y/3b. I expect this not to work as good anymore with the revamp i.e. I likely will not be able to get anthem duration and cd to the same levels without giving up more healing (which I already did anyway by not having 4 blues).

It seems that what I've been doing for years now... going one solid colour (Specialization) on all of my trait lines on all of my toons... and something which I've been laughed at, sneered at, and derided for, in-game, is about to become the norm.

There's some sweet satisfaction in there for me somewhere.

I've always enjoyed having a more specialized character. If you think about it we can all do many things, but we can't all do them anywhere near as well as someone who is specialized in something. If someone puts 20 solid years into something, doing it all day, every day, they're likely going to be better at it than someone who just dabbles into it on the weekend, natural talent notwithstanding.

Whilst I don't think we should necessarily be forced to 'specialize', I do think it should be more difficult, and less effective to be a 'Jack of all Trades, Master of None'.

Just my two coppers.