Official Discussion: Helm's Deep NDA Drop.

[Laire]

Well, there's a new dye color, for those interested in such things, for t9.

Still trying to convince for more dyes to be added to tiers 6 through 9. Never enough colors!


The biggest point of controversy was the expensive spending out of your trait line. We all wanted a lesser penalty or no penalty, but ultimately the penalty stayed. Yes, this makes actual freedom of choice and hybridization much more difficult, and yes, their advertising about more choice was basically not true because the point penalty, especially at lower levels, puts a nice stop to that. This has also been something marked as a 'not changing' thing, so... *shrug*

Captain is better than it was, but I'll miss the tactic buffs. Hunter's pretty cool, though I still won't trait trapper. Haven't played minstrel or LM enough to judge much there.

The landscape is gorgeous.


Overall, no, I don't think it's worth pre-ordering. The raid big battle was fun, but there is only one 12 man size and one 6 man size, and I don't think that worth so much money. The lack of the ability to be hybrid on classes (while possible, much harder) sealed the deal as well. If you enjoy mixing and matching, you won't enjoy HD I think.

Also, as of build 4, if you change trait set ups, the game still does not remember where you put your skills and you have to rearrange them every single time you want a new trait build. Yes, it is very annoying. I hope this is changed in the next couple weeks (or that it was with build 5, I was not able to see for myself).

[jmariner]

I just wanted to say that there are min/maxers in the world... it seems all the really great beta testers are not only "maxers" but ultra maxers... they are the ones who solo BfE on challenge mode! They are going to miss some of the skills, but probably not as many as they fear they will. I'm a really good raider and will never even notice they are on another tree... Beta specific stuff: as a champ I can do more dps single target than before... it is very impressive... I can do so much more AoE it is beyond impressive... Now I can actually kill several strong mobs at the same time instead of killing them one at a time with barely any damage to the mob who isn't my main target.. I can do AoE that is no longer only effective against very weak trash mobs... I can martial up and be an effective tank... I just can't do them all at the same time, but I can switch trees between battles and do them all at different stages of a raid... It's very strategic stuff and it seems to me the maxers have missed the point...

Also note that without this change there was pretty much no where left to go with class advances... Our classes were already so far advanced there was nothing left to give and no where to put it if tried...

As for big battles.... totally lost to start... but really very easy to learn, especially if there are others in game who know what is going on.. in beta there was a long time no one had any idea whatsoever, as I think the devs were trying to determine the learning curve... there is so much there!.... you can succeed at any one part of it, and get rewards/xp... you can succeed at 2,3, or more parts (side quests) and get much more rewards. There are I think 4 BB's with probably 6 or 7 possible side quests.. you fight at Helm's dike.... then at helm's deep...then at the glittering caves, and then at the Hornburg, and they can be done solo, duo, 3, 6, or 12 man... how can anyone have any idea what BB's are really like with all these possibilities?...and you can fight as an engineer, an officer, or a vanguard and all these must be leveled with points earned doing the battles.... it's impossible to say what the battles will be like with fully developed players who know exactly what is going on.... they are fun at low levels and I predict will be a blast at end game.... and just try and imagine where the next BB's will be!....

overall I cant wait...

[Jamesm429]

If you are End Game Raider, like myself, Big Battles is the worst thing that could have happen to this game. Most of them all you have to do is start a Big Battle and go AFK. Most of the quest are click this move that, there is next to no fighting that your toon does. You do run around alot.

Mini as we have come to know them are now gone. The mini is so over powered with healing, anyone can do it. They have really dumb down the class.

Most of the beta testers that did not like what was being forced on us were told, too bad nothing is changing, its coming if you like it or not, have left.
Just about everything HD is about solo and duel. If you have a end game raiding kin like myself, it's about to get really small.

[Peresbert]

Originally they were described as 'The Big Brother Of Skirmishes' by one of the producers, at some point Turbine decided they wanted to stop comparing them to skirmishes entirely . I have heard no statements from the development team or anyone prior to this post by you that would label them Skirmishes 4.0 or 5.0.; I felt my Skirmishes 3.0 statement was generous and originally had thought I'd write Skirmishes 2.5;

I could have almost as easily said 'Wolfs Cleft 1.5'

Epic Battles Pros:
Upscaling
Variety of Roles (Though some are very suited to specific battles more than others)

Epic Battles Cons:
Fixed Group Size (All skirmishes have ALL Group sizes except for Survival Barrow Downs)
Automatic Start (Most Skirmishes allow us to say 'We're ready to start')
No guaranteed Rewards Path (Except for Raid Skirmishes, its always currency->what WE Want)
Daily CDs (Solo Skirmishes dont have any kind of Cooldown!)
Tend to rely more on Brute Force than strategy. (Equally true of skirmishes)

Feels more like a 'Direct your Soldier' / or 'Play with the Clickies' than a fight we're on the front lines for.

I do have to agree with some of the cons. I would love a more variable group size, but the Deeping Wall should be the only Raid. Also a "We are ready" command of some sort would be nice. Don't even think about walking away to see why the baby is crying with the way Big Battles are set up. But you must have missed out on the last build, I got some amazing jewelry from the Big Battles. And the side quest CDs should have a cooldown. People would just farm if they didn't. I also disagree with the brute force comment. The Big Battles are more of a RTS game than just DPS stuff to pieces. Finally this is the Rohirrim's battle. We are there to help guide them and use the knowledge we would have gained as the legendary warriors we are at this point in the game.

[Silverbullets]

Warg PvMP Changes:

Mr. Warg provided in the Beta forums a nice list of warg changes. Hopefully he'll be able to itemize them here again. The sum of it is a long list of cooldowns for many of our skills. Some make sense, some don't entirely. No armor boosts or any long-fight survivability increase, except for the new corruptions every creep class gets. However, I wouldn't cry too hard. With Loremaster stun immunity going back to sane again, the warg's CC should be viable again. Yes, that's right! Entire freep raids won't be immune to our pounces anymore!


General PvMP Changes:

They added more corruption slots, with bonuses if you are traited 3 of the same, or a bigger bonus of 6 of the same. The bonuses weren't that impressive to me. Some issues were noticed with diminishing returns applying to these bonuses. Perhaps another player can elaborate on this better. I didn't spend much time on it, unfortunately. Believe it or not, I spent more time on my freep toons testing out class changes.


Hunter Class Changes:

I'm sad to report that hunters are going to hurt. The good news is that their DPS is OP, though I'm sure it will be nerfed again in the coming months. (We always are, eh? But this perceived OPness may be coming from overly easy landscape mobs.) The bad news is that it takes fewer brain cells to kill things. Agile rejoinder is gone. The hunter cry skill for putting a fear on animals is also gone. Rain of thorns is buried in the Trapper of Foes tree, tier 3 I believe. Rain of arrows is similarly buried (tier 3 or 4) in Bowmaster. Running Bowmaster, you can get Rain of Thorns back easily enough at level cap. However, getting both at levels 47-50ish (the original intended level range) isn't going to happen, due to the double-point penalty of investing in an alternate tree. I feel bad for hunters in mid-range levels. It's going to be a very dull adventure without those skills. Heightened senses is restricted to ToF as a passive. You absolutely MUST trait ToF as your specialization if you want heightened senses. This is going to be bad news for PvPers. Finally, crafted traps/lures/snares are being removed. The devs say they'll make crafted augments for our built-in trap skills. In the meantime, your stacks of traps can be converted into ingots by a weaponsmith. I, for one, will miss my crafted traps. I'm sure many weaponsmiths will be counting the days until they can craft the trap augments.

We did get a few wins. The devs initially removed our bubble, but after we testers begged them, they brought it back. The devs had likewise removed Bard's arrow, but have returned it as a base skill everyone gets rather than a tree skill. The same happened with swift bow. ToF also didn't have inductionless traps as it does on live, but the devs fixed that as well. They also made range targeting of traps optional. I found it rather annoying and clunky, so that was very nice of them to let us decide how we want to lay down our traps.

Despite these small victories, the hunter has been dumbed down further. Getting back all of your old skills won't be possible. Many of them are emergency "panic" buttons for when we get in over our heads. I'm very sad to see them gone. They're like old friends. We are now a one-trick pony. I have personally tried to adjust to these changes, but I think it's safe to say I don't think I'll continue playing my hunter any longer. It just isn't fun anymore. Let's face it: Getting in over our heads was half the fun of playing a hunter. All of that is mostly gone.

I will, however, leave you with a few more positives. Huntsman is interesting. You can fire on the run! ToF has been given some perks as well. It feels a lot spiffier damage-wise. All lines have new skills. Some you might like, some not. They're mostly "blow things up" skills, with relatively little brain power involved. However, don't take my word for it. It's best to try it out for yourself, and decide if you like these changes or not. I personally am not a fan, but that doesn't mean the changes won't grow on you. But I will warn you that I have chatted with other hunters, both on the forums and in Beta, and the general consensus seems to be that we all feel dumbed down. So be prepared for a shock.


Loremaster Class Changes:

The Ent legendary skill is now buried neck deep in MoNF. However, the Eagle is only on tier 2 of KoA, which is somewhat encouraging news. However, accessing it at level 45-50ish (its original intended level range) will be costly if not traited for KoA. KoA is the strongest the three trees. The others were meh. AN needs more love. And that's not just my opinion. That's the general consensus. A lot of skills are missing. Your skill bar will look like swiss cheese. To get the most skills back, you can go AN, but AN seems to lack a punch. It's meant for group support more than anything. However, I am not a full-time Loremaster to give you more details. I fiddle with an alt from time to time, but mostly play with my hunter. I leave it to the more experienced Loremasters to fill you in.

[Crell_1]

But you must have missed out on the last build, I got some amazing jewelry from the Big Battles.

I have seen the jewelry. You obtain it randomly and not from a barter. There's no way to ensure you'll get pieces you'll actually use. ; To me, its the GOLD items fiasco with DAILY CDs instead of being able to grind it at our leisure.

[Jeffor]

If you are End Game Raider, like myself, Big Battles is the worst thing that could have happen to this game. Most of them all you have to do is start a Big Battle and go AFK. Most of the quest are click this move that, there is next to no fighting that your toon does. You do run around alot.

Mini as we have come to know them are now gone. The mini is so over powered with healing, anyone can do it. They have really dumb down the class.

Most of the beta testers that did not like what was being forced on us were told, too bad nothing is changing, its coming if you like it or not, have left.
Just about everything HD is about solo and duel. If you have a end game raiding kin like myself, it's about to get really small.

Wrong there was a lot of dialog in beta and many changes were made to the trees specifically from player suggestions. We have known that the trees were coming for months so it's not like any of us were surprised that this was the case. I can't speak for minstrels but I know that guardians have not been dumbed down (nor have I had to relearn my class). There's also no way you will get anywhere by going AFK in an epic battle. That's simply not true.

[Andthelion]

Well as the NDA has dropped but the beta remains closed I guess its upto us beta testers to voice our opinions.

I STRESS THIS IS MY OPINION

Personally I hate the changes and am no fan of big battles either and I shall explain why,

The class changes feel incredibly restrictive to me, due to the way these trees have been implemented and the double points out of spec penalty, maxing (or even getting close to max) and going any distance down another tree is just not possible.
On my RK I can heal OR I can dps, going down 1 line means I have virtually no skills to use on any other lines and if I go 50/50 I feel like I cant really do either job effectively. The lack of skills out our disposal leads to dull gameplay I have to few options now should I want to try something different, yes I can re-spec quickly but only if I am not in combat and I will address that in a minute. I loved the previous system I had all my skills available and could mix up my gameplay and build however I chose too, now my choices have been removed.

These are NOT trait trees as described, they are Skill/Trait trees, the trees are used to gate skills behind unlocked portions of them, I believe the trees should have been used as a buff/debuff mechanism for the skills and builds we already had, like a trait tree is designed to do. All these trees have done is reduce our options and the flexibility we once had. I do not care 1 bit what skills I can select when stood in the pony or in a crafting hall somewhere or while hiding behind a fence from a band of orcs while I figure out how to trait, I care what skills I have mid battle, when the tank/healer dies, when someone breaks the mez on 3 or 4 mobs and we need to deal with them, when we are starting to run fine on a dps race etc etc, I want to be able to improvise, adapt to changes in a fight when they happen, not wait till we die then try guess what is going to happen next time so I can build accordingly.

The second thing I detest is no longer being allowed to swap builds mid fight, it was 1 of the reasons I loved my RK so much, go in dpsing but when the main healer dies/crashes/goes afk, I could step up switch gear, start using my heals skills and maybe keep the raid alive, I wasnt gonna main heal the whole raid for any length of time but it was their should I need it. All that is gone now, if the healer dies/crashes etc what are we supposed to do now? wait for the wipe so we can respec in case it happens again, in my opinion it leads to dull,linear group play.

I tested My champ, RK, Warden and minnie (all 85) and I have to say I hated all the changes to each of those classes, none of those classes feel anything like they used to, My champ is slow and clunky and I despise having to choose between AOE build or ST, I cant backup tank, as if I go dps(which is my main job) I have nearly no survival skills.

My RK as mentioned has lost all its diverse appeal its just another class now, not the unique style it once had.

And as for minnie and warden, well they are not my main classes and I am sure people will explain these 2 better but these 2 have suffered the worst.

I am sure there will be people who like these changes and I am truly happy for you if you do, but for me these changes have destroyed why I liked this game, its now just like any cheap MMO out there only with the lore to save it.


Ok Big battles,
Tried these, tried to like them, never will I am afraid.

They are not group content even with 12 people, half the time your not needed as the NPCs do fine without you, they are slow, clunky, and certainly not epic in the slightest. The best way I can describe them to you is hytbold meets skirms, it is another huge grind, playing them once is an experience but they have 0 repeatability for me, the only good thing about them is the more you do them the quicker you are able to get through them thanks to the levelling structure. Once you have done each battle once nothing changes when you do them again, there are no tactics to learn no difference in how you approach them depending on what group make up you have , nothing at all to make you think or to challenge you.

Positives,

The Epic Story quests are again awesome.
The normal quests are also fantastic.
Scenery and landscape as ever is second to none.

In summary, this expac is marmite, you either love it or hate it, take my advice do not preorder this till you try it, the changes are WAY to big to make decisions without seeing them first. And the big battles are the same.

[Atheling]

There's also no way you will get anywhere by going AFK in an epic battle. That's simply not true.

Minor objectives can be completed whilst afk. Sorry, it is true. Refer to the feedback thread in beta forums if you require further details. What wouldn't be true to say is that you'll receive the maximum awards. As no-one has said that, it's irrelevant.

[Bobby_Crocker]

If I could give one single bit of advice to players concerned about the sweeping class changes it would be to wait for them to hit and play them a bit before you make your mind up on them, one way or the other.

I dislike skill tree systems in every game I've ever played which had them. I enjoy specialization and having to make decisions on how to advance my character, and enjoy having to wait to gain AwesomeAbility down the road as I progress. What I dislike is having AwesomeAbility gated behind KindacoolAbility and DoNotWantAbility, to where I'm picking up things I don't want in order to get to something I do. So I did go into Beta biased heavily against the tree concept.

That said, it wasn't as horrible as I was expecting (and I don't mean this as a 'damming with faint praise' comment). Yes, things are different, and for some classes quite drastically so. I'd have preferred it if the trees were forgotten about and we kept the trait system as it is now, but that's not an option, and to be honest the way the trees have been implemented so far isn't a deal breaker for me personally. For some they will be, and others will probably love the heck out of them. I won't lie and say the trees won me over or anything, but they weren't the horrible "would give Lovecraft nightmares" abominations I was expecting. Just my feeling about it, YMWV.

I think each and every player will need to try them out and decide for themselves what they think. Don't decide now, based on press articles, "I'm leaving this game" posts, or any other pro/anti spin. Play them yourselves and then decide.

[Jamesm429]

Wrong there was a lot of dialog in beta and many changes were made to the trees specifically from player suggestions. We have known that the trees were coming for months so it's not like any of us were surprised that this was the case. I can't speak for minstrels but I know that guardians have not been dumbed down (nor have I had to relearn my class). There's also no way you will get anywhere by going AFK in an epic battle. That's simply not true.

Really, have you seen this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKo1Rnd1oRw

That Guard has 9 moobs on him and he is not where near dying. Seems dumb down to me.

[WhimsicalPacifist]

Where's the "Hitler tries Helms Deep" video? Been waiting for NDA to drop for it to be made.

[Jeffor]

Minor objectives can be completed whilst afk. Sorry, it is true. Refer to the feedback thread in beta forums if you require further details. What wouldn't be true to say is that you'll receive the maximum awards. As no-one has said that, it's irrelevant.

Just because that particular fact is true does not mean that you will be able to advance your character in any meaningful way nor does it mean that it will be this way once it reaches live. Still the area is huge and full of NPCs so it's not surprising that you can sneak by a BB without participating. Like I said though that doesn't mean it will be like that when it goes live. Besides, who really cares if you can get a pitiful amount of reward for being dead weight? You can do that in much of the live content.

[Stephen1981]

Where's the "Hitler tries Helms Deep" video? Been waiting for NDA to drop for it to be made.

lol that reminds me of the ff11 video where hitler gets banned from ff11

[Jeffor]

Really, have you seen this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKo1Rnd1oRw

That Guard has 9 moobs on him and he is not where near dying. Seems dumb down to me.

I was dong skirmishes over the weekend on live and it was the exact same. Never came close to dying. Same with three and six mans. Most of them are not hard and EB are not finished yet.

[Belnavar]

Minor objectives can be completed whilst afk. Sorry, it is true. Refer to the feedback thread in beta forums if you require further details. What wouldn't be true to say is that you'll receive the maximum awards. As no-one has said that, it's irrelevant.

There's a difference between "completing" an objective in Epic Battles and actually doing well on it. For example, you can complete something and get an iron medal, which rewards nothing at all. In order to get the better medals, you need to not only participate, but usually participate to a very high level. That said, some encounters are not balanced appropriately, with some too easy and others too hard, and this has been looked at in successive builds, and will hopefully be looked at further before and after launch.

For what it's worth, you cannot go AFK throughout a big battle and get a platinum medal. For every soldier and commander that dies, you lose some of your rating, which affects the final medal reward. It is also possible to fail entirely if some of the named characters die.

-Bel

[BillBones]

That Guard has 9 moobs on him and he is not where near dying. Seems dumb down to me.

I suspect there will be massive nerfs either before or after the content goes live.

[Jeffor]

There's a difference between "completing" an objective in Epic Battles and actually doing well on it. For example, you can complete something and get an iron medal, which rewards nothing at all. In order to get the better medals, you need to not only participate, but usually participate to a very high level. That said, some encounters are not balanced appropriately, with some too easy and others too hard, and this has been looked at in successive builds, and will hopefully be looked at further before and after launch.

For what it's worth, you cannot go AFK throughout a big battle and get a platinum medal. For every soldier and commander that dies, you lose some of your rating, which affects the final medal reward. It is also possible to fail entirely if some of the named characters die.

-Bel

Yes this is the point I was making and there will be changes before they go live.

[Jeffor]

I suspect there will be massive nerfs either before or after the content goes live.

Possibly. Guardians are pretty powerful in the new builds.

[Crell_1]

For what it's worth, you cannot go AFK throughout a big battle and get a platinum medal.

-Bel

Yes. You can.
You have to be able to SOLO acquire platinum medals. That means, by definition, that bringing a 'Duo' player into the SOLO space, they have the potential to be AFK and get platinum rewards.; While it's true someone will have to do something, that may not be you.

[Srale]

I was among people who were shocked with the changes due to the beta1. Beta2 and beta3 were same - nothing good to tell about class changes.
But after beta4 there has been significant progress. I can live with my main now - there will be something new to learn but I have great hopes for future.
Thinking out loud: I have 55 points to spend on each of my 3 level 85 chars - So if we wait long enough we will have pleanty of points to spend once we get to Mordor (I can already see my hunter standing in front of the gates of Mordor maximized with all three lines) :-)
The graphics are gorgeous as always - /bow to designers :-)

One major thing that needs to be well done before this hit live - PvMP need to be balanced right - after this last round (beta5) I feel creeps are too weak. Please make our creeps OP so Etten remains a superb end game content. The feeling of happiness you get when you kill your kinnie on the other side is simply beautiful (evil grin).

[Belnavar]

Yes. You can.
You have to be able to SOLO acquire platinum medals. That means, by definition, that bringing a 'Duo' player into the SOLO space, they have the potential to be AFK and get platinum rewards.; While it's true someone will have to do something, that may not be you.

Sorry, Crell, but I am talking about doing the battles at the intended group size. Sure, duo is an option for a solo space, but the fight is intended for solo, and the difficulty matches accordingly. The fact of the matter is that if you are duoing and one person goes AFK and the second person is actively engaging in the fight, then someone is still participating. It is no different than someone going AFK in a 3-man, 6-man, or 12-man, and the rest of the people picking up the slack.

Someone will have to actively participate if a good medal, and the associated jewellery, is desired.

-Bel

[SabrielofLorien]

First thing to know is Big Changes Happened.

How individuals deals with change will be the mark of how they deal with The Big Changes.

There are 2 massive changes: Trait Trees and Big Battles.

Trait Trees

The sky is not falling but you are going to get a big WHOA when you first really look at them.

You will be altering some of how you currently play. This is a fact. You won't do what you do today the way you do it today. This is because of the way skills and abilities have been parsed/altered in the trees and some items have been removed.

You will be able to do the content old and new. If you can do the content now, you can do it when HD comes around but you will do it differently. Your class trees will shift your skill sets and you do have to make choices. You won't be able to Have It All and Have It Now. You can have access to all of it if you shift from one tree build to another.

Shifting to a new tree is not hard or difficult. You can prebuild quite a few and buy slots for more. To shift you will need to be Out Of Combat.

ex:
You can be in Healing Mode, shift to DSP mode, shift to Healing mode but the shifts have be done Out of Combat. Working in groups will be a bit more of challenge only in that those members who are trigger happy will place a group into combat before they can get a new build. This requires only an extra short pause and few clicks. Just like currently there are some things you cannot do in combat (eat food, scrolls) you will have to add in: Shift Trait Trees to the list.

Big Battles

These will be both interesting and confusing. It's an entirely new system. It has its own rewards (medals) and there are a number of versions to try out. The Big Battle Tutorial quest giver is located at the Boar Fountain (beta). I recommend everyone take the tutorial. The equipment is not hard to use but if you are trying to figure it out on-the-fly it's going to make your experience tilt some.


Overall

One thing to remember: much of what happened in Helms Deep was a retreat, not an advance. You can retreat from the challenge or learn to crank the ballista and fire the catapults. When you see the orcs coming over the walls in waves after waves... will you Run or will you Stand and Fight?

[Jeffor]

Yes. You can.
You have to be able to SOLO acquire platinum medals. That means, by definition, that bringing a 'Duo' player into the SOLO space, they have the potential to be AFK and get platinum rewards.; While it's true someone will have to do something, that may not be you.

Do you really believe that's WAI though? At this point I do not.

[Crell_1]

Do you really believe that's WAI though? At this point I do not.

Per +JWB

Solo players are able to obtain platinum medals.

Thus: WAI