Official Discussion: Helm's Deep NDA Drop.

[Dworin]

Lotro 2.0 Revenge of the Hurons.

From what I can see it's not worthy of 2.0:

We keep out character names and levels.

We keep our character classes.

We keep our houses.

etc, etc.

To earn 2.0 status we'd have to start with the slate wiped clean, imo.

[OldMadeOfLions]

The 2 big differences in this expansion are : 1. The Epic books are gated behind the expansion purchase..

Actually, you originally had to purchase 'Mines of Moria' and 'Siege of Mirkwood' to get the Epic Books associated with those expansions; we went back and made them free some time after the conversion to F2P. And you would have needed to purchase 'Rise of Isengard' to get its Epic Book as well, but the decision was made a few weeks before its release to make its Epic free as well.

MoL

[Abaedan]

We as humans are the most adaptable species on earth, we are constantly having to adapt our ways of life yet some people can't cope with a change in the skills system of a computer game, my god...

I'm part of what I perceive to be the majority of people, that is those who understand that this is purely a game, one of many for some, and that it's not worth getting into a complete tizzy over, we'll just wait and see how it plays out. I'll wait and see how I like the changes, if I don't feel I'm enjoying myself I'll adapt and try a different, maybe a new, class, if that doesn't work out I'll move on. I'm not going to lose any sleep over this though.

[Thorwyn99]

Actually, you originally had to purchase 'Mines of Moria' and 'Siege of Mirkwood' to get the Epic Books associated with those expansions; we went back and made them free some time after the conversion to F2P. And you would have needed to purchase 'Rise of Isengard' to get its Epic Book as well, but the decision was made a few weeks before its release to make its Epic free as well.

MoL

Is there a chance that might happen with the new books too after HD is released for a while even though they are deeply linked with the Epic Battles ?

[Dworin]

We as humans are the most adaptable species on earth, we are constantly having to adapt our ways of life yet some people can't cope with a change in the skills system of a computer game, my god...

I'm part of what I perceive to be the majority of people, that is those who understand that this is purely a game, one of many for some, and that it's not worth getting into a complete tizzy over, we'll just wait and see how it plays out. I'll wait and see how I like the changes, if I don't feel I'm enjoying myself I'll adapt and try a different, maybe a new, class, if that doesn't work out I'll move on. I'm not going to lose any sleep over this though.

There is a huge difference between *can't cope* and *don't want to put up with*. I built my characters the way I want them, and I wanted to keep them as I built them. Turbine says *sucks to be you, I guess, but thanks for the money you paid us.*

*shrug* They have 10 levels to convince me that LotRO 1.5 is fun enough to invest any more money in. The ball is in their court.

[Stephen1981]

see this where i disagree this is the only game i've played that has a talent tree system where it cost you 2 points for one rank outside your main tree so you tell me why should i play this one when the other games than have a talent tree system do it better

[SabrielofLorien]

There is a huge difference between *can't cope* and *don't want to put up with*. I built my characters the way I want them, and I wanted to keep them as I built them. Turbine says *sucks to be you, I guess, but thanks for the money you paid us.*

*shrug* They have 10 levels to convince me that LotRO 1.5 is fun enough to invest any more money in. The ball is in their court.

It's sort of hard to prove a negative... It's even harder to change a persons outlook... I don't think a video game can do that really.

If you decide it's fun, it will be fun. If you decide it's not fun, it will be not fun. The pixels can't help you there.

[Skippa]

We as humans are the most adaptable species on earth, we are constantly having to adapt our ways of life yet some people can't cope with a change in the skills system of a computer game, my god...

I'm part of what I perceive to be the majority of people, that is those who understand that this is purely a game, one of many for some, and that it's not worth getting into a complete tizzy over, we'll just wait and see how it plays out. I'll wait and see how I like the changes, if I don't feel I'm enjoying myself I'll adapt and try a different, maybe a new, class, if that doesn't work out I'll move on. I'm not going to lose any sleep over this though.

I seem to recall similar philosophies expounded when NGE dropped. SOE STILL gets bad press all these years later.

[ertr]

We as humans are the most adaptable species on earth, we are constantly having to adapt our ways of life yet some people can't cope with a change in the skills system of a computer game, my god...

We can cope, we just don't like being forced to do it. Also, if people perceive the changes to be a step backwards rather than an improvement, they are not going to be happy about it regardless of how well they can cope with the changes or not.

Also, claiming or implying that the people who dislike the changes do so just because they can't cope with change, or are afraid of change, or similar sentiments, is frankly a bit rude and more than a little insulting.

[SabrielofLorien]

see this where i disagree this is the only game i've played that has a talent tree system where it cost you 2 points for one rank outside your main tree so you tell me why should i play this one when the other games than have a talent tree system do it better

They do it different.

This game is what it is. It's themed on the books of Tolkien. SWTOR is themed on Star Wars. Other games have other themes. Why are there so many to chose from? Because people like different themes.

It the theme doesn't suit, nothing in game will make it so. If the trait tree implementation doesn't match another game, well, you already have the answer you are asking for.

[Dworin]

We can cope, we just don't like being forced to do it. Also, if people perceive the changes to be a step backwards rather than an improvement, they are not going to be happy about it regardless of how well they can cope with the changes or not.

Also, claiming or implying that the people who dislike the changes do so just because they can't cope with change, or are afraid of change, or similar sentiments, is frankly a bit rude and more than a little insulting.

Agreed. His was not a wise statement.

[Stephen1981]

They do it different.

This game is what it is. It's themed on the books of Tolkien. SWTOR is themed on Star Wars. Other games have other themes. Why are there so many to chose from? Because people like different themes.

It the theme doesn't suit, nothing in game will make it so. If the trait tree implementation doesn't match another game, well, you already have the answer you are asking for.

it wasn't really the theme i had a issue with it was more about how talent tree system was put into LOTRO since they have no desire to even make a compromise on what i said then maybe its time to uninstall this game off my machine

btw i prefer to call it IP more than theme

[Thorwyn99]

It's sort of hard to prove a negative... It's even harder to change a persons outlook... I don't think a video game can do that really.

If you decide it's fun, it will be fun. If you decide it's not fun, it will be not fun. The pixels can't help you there.

Well i'm sure that the trait trees turn some peoples impressions into unfun, if the other content is good enough for them though it might take it back to fun.
If someone is not having fun i can't blame them for moving on.

On the other hand the trait trees might make the game more fun for other people, can't make everyone happy.

Turbine has decided what they want to do though if it is for better or worse we will see.

[Abaedan]

There is a huge difference between *can't cope* and *don't want to put up with*. I built my characters the way I want them, and I wanted to keep them as I built them. Turbine says *sucks to be you, I guess, but thanks for the money you paid us.*

*shrug* They have 10 levels to convince me that LotRO 1.5 is fun enough to invest any more money in. The ball is in their court.

Going with your nuance then, I am surprised that skills changing in a game is something some people don't want to put up with to the point of working themselves up so much. On the list of things I wouldn't want to put up with and that would trigger the kind of emotional responses I have seen in the last 37 pages, a relatively minor change to the functioning of one of my sources of entertainment ranks far far down the list.

[Thorwyn99]

Going with your nuance then, I am surprised that skills changing in a game is something some people don't want to put up with to the point of working themselves up so much. On the list of things I wouldn't want to put up with and that would trigger the kind of emotional responses I have seen in the last 37 pages, a relatively minor change to the functioning of one of my sources of entertainment ranks far far down the list.

Points at the Most passionate Community Dragonslayer award. Reading this thread i'm not sure if the Lotro community really deserved this reward, if this was the WoW or D3 Forums we probably would have about half a dozen death threats by now.
I mean that's real passion!

[Kongas]

Agreed. His was not a wise statement.

These changes take no time to adjust to. Classes have been hugely simplified. Everything is easier than ever. Adapting to change is not the issue. As people say - it is the nature of the change. Slow, two finger game-play and a tree system designed to constrain player choice is for some of us - a bad change.

[Skippa]

Going with your nuance then, I am surprised that skills changing in a game is something some people don't want to put up with to the point of working themselves up so much. On the list of things I wouldn't want to put up with and that would trigger the kind of emotional responses I have seen in the last 37 pages, a relatively minor change to the functioning of one of my sources of entertainment ranks far far down the list.

Welcome to the mmo genre. People become financially and emotionally invested in their stack of pixels(it's a factor of longevity) The more drastic the change to those pixels the harder the pushback. I mentioned the NGE earlier; that is an extreme case of the same phenomena at work within the genre. Love it hate or don't care it is a constant of the mmo customer base. Understand it and accept it or stand around looking confused when these things happen.

[Dworin]

Going with your nuance then, I am surprised that skills changing in a game is something some people don't want to put up with to the point of working themselves up so much. On the list of things I wouldn't want to put up with and that would trigger the kind of emotional responses I have seen in the last 37 pages, a relatively minor change to the functioning of one of my sources of entertainment ranks far far down the list.

People have different priorities, equally valid. insulting people whose priorities are not the same as yours is not a good way to be, imo.

[Drawbar]

So, now Turbine doesn't need to create new skills the next 5 years because we're busy earning back what they will take away with HD, and maybe introducing scaled gear, do they now have the time to work on bugs, lag and maybe a combine all button at relicmaster?

[Kongas]

We've invested a huge amount of time and money in a product only for the product to be taken away and replaced by a vastly inferior one. It's not that hard to work out why people are not doing a c'est la vie shrug.

[Palentian]

The best advice I can give at this point is this:

Try it. Make your own decision. Don't rely too heavily on the opinion of others (positive or negative). Keep in mind that it is rather a shock visually. Its one thing to read these threads and another to actually SEE the changes. Play around with them. Then decide if the changes are something you can go with or not. Keep in mind also, that you will probably NOT be able to have exactly the same build as on live. (some classes will be able to get closer than other classes) So if you go in TRYING to make your current character, you will probably be disappointed. If you go in with a reasonably open mind and play with the tools available, you may find the changes livable. Some might even be excited.

[Palentian]

We've invested a huge amount of time and money in a product only for the product to be taken away and replaced by a vastly inferior one. It's not that hard to work out why people are not doing a c'est la vie shrug.

I've seen other posts like this. You do realize you haven't actually bought a product, right? You've only rented time on a service. Like Netflix, or Comcast (or which ever cable company you have).

[Kongas]

I've seen other posts like this. You do realize you haven't actually bought a product, right? You've only rented time on a service. Like Netflix, or Comcast (or which ever cable company you have).

I thought it has been clearly established that calling people out like that is now a forum offence?

[Bendin]

I've seen other posts like this. You do realize you haven't actually bought a product, right? You've only rented time on a service. Like Netflix, or Comcast (or which ever cable company you have).

That approach to longevity, personal investment, and ownership might explain why modern mmos cant go 2 months post launch without bleeding subs. One reason I've never understood Turbines recent trend to be hell bent on chasing the "mainstream". Drive by gaming doesn't seem to me to be the most profitable venue judging by the state of the titles on offer.

EDIT I mean think about it Skyrim, GTA V neted more profit in a couple of days/weeks than modern mmo's do in a quarter or even the whole fiscal year. Mmo's NEED a hook to keep people paying(either sub or store). One of the biggest hooks is longevity and your player base becoming personally invested in the world. The less invested personally they are the easier it is to walk away no harm no foul. The counter point to that is if you use personal investment as part of your longevity strategy, one can't act surprised if there is blowback when you remove/fundamentally change the third pillar it rested on.

[Dworin]

I am reminded of Everquest. When SoE wanted to create a new game they created Everquest II without taking away the old game, Everquest. I think it's too bad Turbine did not follow that model. But that's just my opinion, and both Everquest and Everquest II are still going on and moving forward.