Warden Threat Problem In Raid

[rannion]

Methinks he was dreaming of the days before HD came and took them all away.

affirmative

[Mysterion]

Not to add fuel to the fire. But I've stepped into tanking role in terrible gear red traited on my guard and held threat off 95s at level 92. I still have challenge and fray the edge (taunts) red traited. This was against the 3 monster quest mobs, turtle, dragon and kitty cat. Not impressive but with several 95 hunters I didn't really see it being possible with my leveling guard. Maybe they were just terrible but it wasn't something I would have expected to work, at least pre-hd I don't think it would have worked.

[spelunker]

Not to add fuel to the fire. But I've stepped into tanking role in terrible gear red traited on my guard and held threat off 95s at level 92. I still have challenge and fray the edge (taunts) red traited. This was against the 3 monster quest mobs, turtle, dragon and kitty cat. Not impressive but with several 95 hunters I didn't really see it being possible with my leveling guard. Maybe they were just terrible but it wasn't something I would have expected to work, at least pre-hd I don't think it would have worked.

the only reason it wouldn't have worked pre-HD (assuming you traited blue, of course) is because of increased resist chances on your force taunt/threat match skills.

[Mysterion]

the only reason it wouldn't have worked pre-HD (assuming you traited blue, of course) is because of increased resist chances on your force taunt/threat match skills.

I'm pretty sure fray the edge was threat down before HD (in OP). I wouldn't have attempted it in the old aggro system. Challenge/engage alone wouldn't have been able to hold aggro. Keeping in mind stances are gone and being red traited is like forced overpower stance. I could have always switched to defense before and might have had a chance. This was easier than I ever expected considering the situation.

[JLotro]

I decided to try a lv95 2nd age weapon to see what it would do for my threat
since there was some doubt about my lv85 FA.

The result is a minimal improvement, mainly with single targets. My AOE threat is
still terrible.

The next experiment I tried was to swap out all my tanking (vit/bpe) gear for stuff that gets me
the highest phys-mastery; got it to about 50k, up from 36k. This change further improved my
single target threat, but AOE is still BAD. Also, I am taking much more damage geared this way
and my morale pool is lower.

The general problem I see is this... As a tank I should equip gear for durability, but this
means reduced DPS. The new DPS based threat system fails to allow tanks to equip the best
tanking gear without reducing threat. Tanks should not have to gear up as if they were DPS.

A simple solution would be to increase the threat-multiplier so that a low phys-mastery (high vit+BPE)
build has good threat. And maybe a separate HIGHER threat-multiplier could apply to our AOE skills since
they are the biggest problem area.

Of course bringing back THREAT LEACH to conviction, etc. would be BRILLIANT. (ahem... Devs?)

[.cy]

@devs

Why don't you add Wardens to the classes that can use the legacy 'Persistent Light' (it's only avaiable for LM, Cap. and Minis)
The Thread system is #### atm. We should tank trough DPS but we don't have many possibilities to increase our dmg if we want to stay alive.

[metankng]

I haven't seen any issues with tanking on the ATM from personal experience

I currently am running at 4k agi with ~3400 vit in all new gear

I don't use DC cause it seems to be broken

[Drglory]

I haven't seen any issues with tanking on the ATM from personal experience

I currently am running at 4k agi with ~3400 vit in all new gear

I don't use DC cause it seems to be broken

I use DC mostly for the reflect. Anything extra can help!

[Deviled_Egg]

don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to suger coat it, we are bahind in the tanking department. the fact you compared us to champ shows that XD but there are things people should be learning to help themselves tank better. knowing how the new DC works and not just spamming it will help a lot to know what there doing wrong.

I would suspect once balancing changes (12.1 and 12.2 probably) start coming though the off-tank idea might come into play a little more. we'll see.

can only hope the devs are hearing our plea's on live now, or even working on the many suggestions we gave in beta.

A change is going into 12.1 which will increase DC's radius to 10m and max targets back to 10. It should apply a force taunt as well as the threat catch-up effect.

[thunderchickn]

Hey that's awesome, more than I hoped for.

While we're at it, threat leeches!

[ElfHunter1027]

I am definitely on board for threat leeches being brought back

[JLotro]

I am definitely on board for threat leeches being brought back

Ditto !!!!!

[x72]

First of all i would like to apologize it's not my native, it's not my native.

Here is my opinion about warden situation.

Right now holding Aoe's aggro is almost impossible, and its when people are not fully geared with 95 gear, so just think what will heppen once they do fully geared.

One of the main problem I found while trying tanking multiple targets, is that i have to run to target use few gambits until i can get aggro, single target gambits ofc and in the meantime I can lose aggro of the rest of the mobs.
And ofc not always the tank can go to a walk with many mobs after him (aoe damage), to get aggro on one mob. (flight t2 when the tank have pack of warriors on him, he can jsut move and get 1 lose aggro from the mini, or he will slaughter the whole group).

For guards they solved it very easily, gave them challenge skill that brings the mobs to them.
Wardens? right now we have no tools for this situation. I see two possible solutions:

1. Give us range challenge skills, like shouts and etc. I dont like this idea cause it make us be like guard, (imo we need more gambits less skills)
2. Give us back our leeching aggro gmabits, it was one of our unique skills, and i think taking it away from us, is just too much.


I love changes, but i love how our class used to be. i know it's too much to ask give us everything back but atleast give us leeching.
Let me remind to everyone this is premium class, it doesn't mean our class should be easy, or be over power. It mean our class should be taking care at least like other classes if not even more.

[jani16]

A change is going into 12.1 which will increase DC's radius to 10m and max targets back to 10. It should apply a force taunt as well as the threat catch-up effect.

Hi dev_egg, can you consider of making agility to convert 10 phy mastery, 5 tactical mastery, 2 parry, 2 block and 2 evade?
The evade overcaps big time making gambits like war cry line quite useless. Also, do you mind adding tier 1,2 and 3 HoTs for war cry line and impresive flourish line so that persevence line isnt that much overpowered compared to other gambit lines. This way HoT pulse durations can be 15 seconds. War cry and impresive flourish used to give tier 1 HoT which i found beneficial sometimes depending on situation like against tactical damage you want to build impresive flourish line only for the mitigation and critD buffs since you cant bpe.

Resounding challenge should be finishing skill for war cry line where regular version does non damage threat skill for cced and damage absorbing mobs and finishered version would apply the light damage on top of it. I wouldnt mind if this would hit 10 targets instead of 6.

Shield mastery should be regular gambit and finishing skill which gains benefit from persevence line finisher block rating buff. Ranged block rating should be switched into parry rating.

Shield tactics should be regular gambit and finisher who gets benefits from mitigation ratings. Shield tactics should also give immunity for dazes and knockouts.

Light damage skills and some of the shield gambits should do way less damage. Should simply add extra 300%threat modifer for light damage when specializing to determination isntead of making light damage skills sky high.


Suggestion for for the free peoples capstone

+100% partial evade chance
-50% inc tactical damage (the reason of not being tactical mitigation is because you would be able to mitigate and partial parry something like od poison wing bosses meele acid attacks)
masteries reset on evades and partial evades
Duration 15 seconds

This would work as oh beep button for aggro gaining, defence buffing and kind of death prevent unless you use it at below certain amoutn of morale % because the partial evade may kill you when without using it you would have a chance to get real bpe and be saved. For these reason i dont consider this overpowered especially what guardians have.

Good that you will adjust for dc and buff durations, i hope this also includes finsihing blow duration. Please dont increase HoT durations except conviction otherwise we are back to pulling everything and not dying in all the instances which obviously is the case right now as well because of fail scaling.

One problem i see with dc change back to 10 targets is the mitigation buff. I except you will divide this as 1 stack is 3% from 6% since targets are doubled and the legacy 1% from 2%. This would mean against single target we will have medium armor 50%, dc 4% and DoW/conviction 2% which is total of 56% against guardians 80 or 92% meaning we will take 120% or 450% more damage than guardians where as in RoI the situation was 68% more damage. Mitigation buff cannot be tied to DC, otherwise we will be screwed as main tanks for many raids. How about adding the % for impresive flourish line and also add partial evade chance for war cry line in similar way as persevence line has partial block chance?

[Miloneel]

A change is going into 12.1 which will increase DC's radius to 10m and max targets back to 10. It should apply a force taunt as well as the threat catch-up effect.

GREAT great news. This will definitely improve AoE tanking A LOT. Thank you.

Is the +AoE targets legacy / passive being considered? Or a way to raise Goad & Desolation maximum targets?
If this ever happens though, I really think it should be a passive, rather than another legacy to fit and max out in the weapon.
What about Blue Capstone skill and a second threat match-up/taunt option?

Also these legacy bugs would really help to have fixed for tanking:
+Lifetap Gambit damage (it actually LOWERS the Lifetaps damage)
-10% in the fray attack duration (doesn't work)

[Beltharas]

A change is going into 12.1 which will increase DC's radius to 10m and max targets back to 10. It should apply a force taunt as well as the threat catch-up effect.

DE this might make us functional tanks again, but it means the warden is relying on regular use of a clicky skill to hold groups. This is a fundamental change to gameplay style. Are there other proposed changes I've missed, or is this the entirety of the solution to our current agro issues?

[Othniel]

DE this might make us functional tanks again, but it means the warden is relying on regular use of a clicky skill to hold groups. This is a fundamental change to gameplay style. Are there other proposed changes I've missed, or is this the entirety of the solution to our current agro issues?

If it is the entirety of the solution, I'm going to be a sad Warden. Don't get me wrong; DC being buffed and buff gambit duration being increased (Deviled_Egg commented on this before saying durations will be going up) is great, but...the new method of tanking just seems so...dull. I liked my threat gambits (especially the leeches...*hint hint*), and it won't be very fun to just spam a clickable skill in between self-buffing and the occasional AoE damage skill.

Power costs need to be looked at.

I am still wondering about the status of our stats with regard to Might and Agility contributions to physical mastery. As I said in another thread, the game is still telling me that Might contributes to physical mastery. We were told last year that the grace period would eventually end, but it has not. I kind of like the idea of using both Might and Agility (although it would play havoc with gear drops) because Might gives block. If might goes away, it becomes much more difficult to cap block with buffs. Potential solution: Increase the effect of trading off parry and evade for block. I would give it a straight evade for block trade myself, but that's a minor quibble.

Blue-line capstone needs replacing as well. It needs to be something awesome. Not sure what though...

[thunderchickn]

I have to say I do like the idea of Agility giving 2 block, 2 parry, 2 evade. Doesn't make sense because being agile is the opposite of blocking something, but if we are in fact going to lose might for physical mastery it's definitely necessary.

[FrasierWCrane]

If it is the entirety of the solution, I'm going to be a sad Warden. Don't get me wrong; DC being buffed and buff gambit duration being increased (Deviled_Egg commented on this before saying durations will be going up) is great, but...the new method of tanking just seems so...dull. I liked my threat gambits (especially the leeches...*hint hint*), and it won't be very fun to just spam a clickable skill in between self-buffing and the occasional AoE damage skill.

Yeah, that's really the gist of the matter: You can change the numbers all you want and make it so that we can hold aggro of dozens of mobs easily and survive agains all odds - it won't matter if you don't change the system. As of now tanking is boring, boring, boring and simple doesn't feel right. Please give us back our thread leeches and non-dps ways to build aggro or else you really will have put the final coffin nail into what once has been the funniest, most enjoyable and most creative class in the game.

[spelunker]

If stat ratings on items and those conversions to percentages remains the same, I don't see a problem with agility only providing evade and parry, geating and a very small amount of buffs will have us easily capping our bpe and crit d from what I've seen. The loss of ICHR on gear on the other hand is very disconcerting and isn't some thing we can really address.

I have to agree with a number of other people who hold the sentiment that the class simply isn't fun to play as a in the past. Logging in around the end of the second BETA build it felt like our dev had pushed us back about 50 steps (from an enjoyment perspective), and while almost every thing DE has done has been a step towards making this better and us more "powerful", we've taken a handful of steps forward compared to a starting point 50 back of where the class has been. I have no doubt 12.1 will be a better, more powerful warden than we had, and we will most likely get even more buffs and improvements in subsequent updates and wardens may soldier on as OP tanking/dps/soloing powerhouses. Minor tweaks and skill rebalances might well be enough to make assailment both viable and enjoyable, and would certainly be enough to have recklessness in a great place, but the entire paradigm that determination operates under is fundamentally flawed, and if DE continues with baby step updates to address this things wobln't be 'good' or fun until turbine decides to completely revamp the class again.

Typed on a phone with an uncooperative auto-corect, so sorry for the readability

[Saiffyros]

Increase or fix or already increased? It already say radius 10m and it affect targets at 10m. Need check how many targets...

[rannion]

Increase or fix or already increased? It already say radius 10m and it affect targets at 10m. Need check how many targets...

No, that tooltip info is just wrong.. it refers to the force aggro that DC was supposed to have once, but which was removed.

[Leo_Dan]

A change is going into 12.1 which will increase DC's radius to 10m and max targets back to 10. It should apply a force taunt as well as the threat catch-up effect.

So will DC still give +8% mitigations per target with the legacy?

+80% mits O.O

[JLotro]

So will DC still give +8% mitigations per target with the legacy?

+80% mits O.O

Seems kinda strong BUT only when you have 10+ mobs beating on you at the same time.

There should probably be some logic that caps total mits slightly below 100%

[thunderchickn]

I'm guessing the mitigations is still going to be capped to 5. They're different effects, so I bet they can just make them have different amounts of targets as well.