15.2 Player music

[Boskone08]

While the music system is not of primary concern to me (server closures are), it is great to see Vyvyanne's prompt and informative responses to the issue. It gives me hope that other issues will, in turn, receive the same sort of attention and drive toward a good resolution. Thank you, Vyvyanne!


"Too late, he recalled Miles's dictum that the reward for a job well done was usually a harder job." - Lois Mcmaster Bujold

[Herwegur]

Making two harps, while perhaps a future possibility is not a possibility in the near term. We can keep the new sound and lower the volume or we can return it to the version currently on the live servers.

I finally logged into Bullroarer to compare the harp sound between beta and live. Please revert the harp to its original sound, the way it is on live servers. I agree with others' observations that the new sound is too drastically different to be compatible with already existing .abc files for solo harp. I have tried playing the familiar .abc solo harp songs on bullroarer, but the new sound changes the entire feel of these melodies, and these songs are not recognizable.

My .abc playlist for solo harp has been specifically chosen for the live harp's original mellow sound. As a player who does a lot of in-game concerts, I am very much concerned.

[Orlor]

As I posted on BR forums a while back I don't think volumes should be changed from the old system at all. We have already compensated for volumes when we made our ABC files. Changing volumes now will make all our files sound different when played in game. So if as you say, you are trying to even out the volume levels, then when I play an ABC file that I have turned the volume on lute down a bit to play softly in the background and turned up the volume of a horn to play the melody and you for example have turned the volume of lute up and horn down or even left it the same. Then you have completely changed the way that file will sound when played in game. The lute will now be dominating the song. Get the instruments in tune? Yes! Fix any wonky notes? Yes! But I say leave the volumes as they are in the old system. Does anyone get what I'm saying or am I just babbling nonsense?

I get you perfectly and I was one of the first to advocate exactly what you are advocating. You can change the tone of the instruments and their tuning. But if you start changing the volumes, then all the work we have done in the past with all our abc files have been in vain.

[Silmelin]

The major changes in harp are in tone. This new BR harp sounds completely different. Live harp sounds like my nylon-stringed folk harp played with fingertips (not long nails). BR harp sounds like a metal-stringed Celtic harp played with fingernails (very like the harp used by Patrick Ball). The attack is hard, loud and full of reverb. It's actually a beautiful sounding harp! But, it is not going to be compatible with existing ABC songs where the harp is being used precisely for it's soft mellow sound and full sustain. And it changes the character of solo harp songs. A change this drastic almost needs a whole new instrument, such as a Rohirrim harp (more appropriate to their Anglo-Saxon heritage) or like the harp seen in Gondor on NPCs.

Oooooh! Really?

Oh please please please Turbine, could we have two harps? One soft mellow, and one like the BR harp? Please? That way you could add a new instrument without having to make new animation!

[Mar-Evayave]

Making two harps, while perhaps a future possibility is not a possibility in the near term. We can keep the new sound and lower the volume or we can return it to the version currently on the live servers.

Ah well, was worth a try. xD I'm not familiar enough with the volumes of live vs beta because I have not extensively tested them, so I'll be fine with whatever the result is, so long as it pleases the majority.

[Silmelin]

Making two harps, while perhaps a future possibility is not a possibility in the near term. We can keep the new sound and lower the volume or we can return it to the version currently on the live servers.

If you decide to revert to the old harp, could you please keep the new sounds saved for the future? The new harp really does sound beautiful! And I'm hoping that we will someday get it added as a new instrument It could even look the same and use the same animation and only have a different sound and a different name

[diamond-tinidril]

Thank you everyone for the valuable feedback.

We are working on the following changes for the next build:
1. Lower the volumes on a couple of the instruments
2. Switch the harp back to its live version

We hope those changes will get us to a place that will please the musicians and festival goers!

Returning the harp to its original version is probably the best option. BUT, please don't trash that lovely, bright Celtic-sounding harp! Put it on the shelf for later, it would be wonderful to have it in addition to the folk-harp original. Just like there are two cowbells, and one being rather harder to get and with a special sound and animation, perhaps you could do as suggested above and just upgrade Gleowine's harp to have its own sound

Theorbo has one note of special concern, "E," (in ABC notation) the actual pitch is E2(?) I think. Anyway, this note when played in a song sounds like a record skip... a very indistinct pitch (thuddy) and an odd, suddenly cut off sustain as if the pick slipped in the players fingers. Not as irritating as the screechy clarinet note last time, but still, it does not sound good in use. Then there is the "B," note mentioned above that sounds like an escapee from the harp samples: far too bright and pitched an octave too high. But those other notes in the lowest register are so beautiful and clear!

Pibgorn sounded amazing, actually usable in all octaves! Thank you!! And of course, the in-tune (and with FULL lower octaves) clarinet, flute, and horn are most welcome. The horn's upper range is far less screechy, but it's lowest range lost some "oomph" or should I say "oompa pa" hehehe. I'll miss those old gravelly bass notes... but altogether the horn sounds much smoother. In the last attempted update of the music system I was stunned at how beautifully these wind instruments blended with one another. I am sure we can get the volumes to a good place and then come listen to some of our concerts and be blown away

[Herwegur]

Returning the harp to its original version is probably the best option. BUT, please don't trash that lovely, bright Celtic-sounding harp! Put it on the shelf for later, it would be wonderful to have it in addition to the folk-harp original. Just like there are two cowbells, and one being rather harder to get and with a special sound and animation, perhaps you could do as suggested above and just upgrade Gleowine's harp to have its own sound

I love this idea. Gleowine's harp is perfect for the new steel-wire sound, and no need to design a brand new instrument for it. And the original harp can keep its original sound as it stands on live.

And voila... as a new unique instrument addition, rather than replacement, it would be much welcomed

[Vyvyanne]

We will not toss out the new sound and will look into the possibilities of adding it as a separate instrument at a later time. Thank you everyone for the focused feedback on here.

[Vyvyanne]

As for the volumes, with all the tuning and changes in this version of the system, we can not just set the volume to live settings but leave the rest of the changes as the sound will be different. Many of the instruments were re-recorded. We have to balance the volume based on what we have now or revert back completely. My understanding was that the musician community wanted these updates enough to make adjusting ABC files worth it. If that is not the case then we need to know that so that we can leave the system as it is on Live.

[Linawillow]

My understanding was that the musician community wanted these updates enough to make adjusting ABC files worth it.

To me, it absolutely is worth it! When the instruments get tuning/sample changes, I likely have to change many of my ABC's anyway, regardless of volumes. As long as things end up sounding better, I am all for it.

Oh, and thanks for looking into ways to add the new harp sounds too. That'd be a grand improvement!

[Orlor]

Like I said before, I am not in favor of fooling around with the vol adjustments. I have far too many abc's done with the old vol levels and if you change those, then most (If not all) of those abc's are worthless.

[Silmelin]

We will not toss out the new sound and will look into the possibilities of adding it as a separate instrument at a later time. Thank you everyone for the focused feedback on here.

Oh that's wonderful! Thank you! I'll be keeping my fingers crossed, hoping that you'll find a way to add a new harp in the future some day

As for the volumes, with all the tuning and changes in this version of the system, we can not just set the volume to live settings but leave the rest of the changes as the sound will be different. Many of the instruments were re-recorded. We have to balance the volume based on what we have now or revert back completely. My understanding was that the musician community wanted these updates enough to make adjusting ABC files worth it. If that is not the case then we need to know that so that we can leave the system as it is on Live.

I have lots and lots of ABC's that I will have to go through, but it will be so worth it! Will happily redo them all if I have to, but probably I'd just have to tweak them a bit

Please continue to balance the volume based on what you have now, and don't revert to what's on live

[Bedalin]

Oh that's wonderful! Thank you! I'll be keeping my fingers crossed, hoping that you'll find a way to add a new harp in the future some day

I still hope,that the gondorian harp can sometime in the future be used for music

[Keli]

As for the volumes, with all the tuning and changes in this version of the system, we can not just set the volume to live settings but leave the rest of the changes as the sound will be different. Many of the instruments were re-recorded. We have to balance the volume based on what we have now or revert back completely. My understanding was that the musician community wanted these updates enough to make adjusting ABC files worth it. If that is not the case then we need to know that so that we can leave the system as it is on Live.

Just asking a question here - is it possible to have the new sounds for all instruments but retain the existing sounds for theorbo and harp? They seem to be the problematical ones regarding volume

Would love 2 versions of the harp!

Do I want the music changes? You bet! Yes I will have to adjust many of my abcs but so what. I would just do sufficient each week for that week's concert so not really onerous. What I don't want is adjusting them and then find out, down the line, things changing again (other than adding new instruments).

Please continue work, most of us are really appreciative of your efforts.

[Katiepie]

I would rather have tuned instruments and configure volumes in files after. Although I hear we only need a softening of the strings to balance it all out.

Thank you so much for working on this, I really appreciate the work and look forward to arranging for TSO24 when we have this live.

[moxieblossom]

1. Please move forward with the new music system. Even if I need to tweak my ABC files, it will be so worth it to have better music in-game!

2. Please seriously consider adding the new celtic harp sound as an additional instrument. That sound fits perfectly with LotRO and the possibilities for celtic/old-world music with that instrument are very exciting.

[Summer_Beor]

I am absolutely in favor of the changes, including the louder theorbo. Please continue, and thank you for all your efforts in this department!

[Aegthil_of_Gondor]

My understanding was that the musician community wanted these updates enough to make adjusting ABC files worth it. If that is not the case then we need to know that so that we can leave the system as it is on Live.

For me, it is very very much worth it, so do please continue. Instrument balance can be fixed inside an ABC file. It might be a bit fiddly at times, but it's possible. Changing the tuning of an instrument simply isn't possible. As has been pointed out many times, the instruments on live are severely out of tune, and this has a deleterious effect on the music. (I haven't yet been able to test the Bullroarer ones, but I hear they are much improved.)

Thus, having instruments in tune gives much greater long-term potential, at the (possible) cost of temporary inconvenience.

Many thanks for continuing to work on this. All the work that developers do on the music system is very greatly appreciated. So much appreciated that I wrote you all a song (well, a set of almost-jigs), which you can find, in full out-of-tune glory here. When we get nice instruments I'll record an in-tune version for you.

Goodness, if we get in-tune instruments, I'll write you 20 songs in joyous celebration!

Aegthil's Fool

[Lavs]

a combination of RL & catching up on things in game that I negelected through Winter festival & Winterstock mean I haven't logged into Bullroarer to test things myself yet, but to answer the question about adjusting volumes of instruments... ideally I would like a good balance of volume from instrument to instrument, better than what is currently on BR, as it makes it easier to balance things in a song... there's only so far you can adjust the volumes in an ABC to compensate for an instrument being too loud or too soft (eg the drum shaker sounds, even if you put on their own drum they can still be problematic getting them soft enough). But if we can't have in tune notes AND instrument volumes balanced acrossed the board then I'll take the in tune notes thanks. As others have said, any change will see us needing to tweak our already existing ABCs, but I would much rather spend some time revising those for a better system overall. We found ways to work with to the old system to a degree, but there were certainly things that could result in making a song not possible under the system currently on live (if you want an example, changing the key of a song to bring it within range on both the upper & lower ends being impossible due to the dud low clarinet & horn notes currently on live... a semitone can make a world of difference!).

So in my view, go right ahead with adjusting volumes. From what I have seen, they could do with some more work, but the "short term" pain of updating old files will be worth it for much better sounding instruments. And I'm liking the talk of a second harp being a possibility further down the track

[Swagman]

As for the volumes, with all the tuning and changes in this version of the system, we can not just set the volume to live settings but leave the rest of the changes as the sound will be different. Many of the instruments were re-recorded. We have to balance the volume based on what we have now or revert back completely. My understanding was that the musician community wanted these updates enough to make adjusting ABC files worth it. If that is not the case then we need to know that so that we can leave the system as it is on Live.

Leaving volume levels at the live version level was just a suggestion if it was possible, since it's not by all means continue developing the new system. If we have to tweak our files then that's fine. I like what you are doing with the new system.

[SchorschiSchrumpf]

Leaving volume levels at the live version level was just a suggestion if it was possible, since it's not by all means continue developing the new system. If we have to tweak our files then that's fine. I like what you are doing with the new system.

My two cents to this:

There are established methods used by musical studios to have different sounds at the same volume - all this "by ear" fixing will lead to nothing good. Why don't you do it that way? There is no need for subjective loudnes comparision really!

After the desaster of the last patch, why don't you do it right in the first place? To me it looks like these are new modifications, but technically they are done in the same way - not understanding where the problem is - really read up on those technical definitions of volume, maybe ask someone professional how soundfonts are made.

And honestly I'm still totally disapointed how this was rolled out the last time, despite all the warnings in the forums. And then it took forever to accept that the update was totally messed up. Given this new round of modifications my expecations are basically at 0. So why would it be different this time?

I can't share the positive views of the other posters - sorry.

[Vyvyanne]

Ok so you should see some volume balancing tomorrow along with a switch back to the live version harp sound.

We do not intend to change the system again unless it is to add a new instrument. This pass was purely to correct the tuning issues and inconsistent note timing that was problematic in the Live version. Were we to change anything in this system again past 15.2, it would be because the musician community was in dire need for us to fix a bug/ tuning issue.

[Swagman]

Ok so you should see some volume balancing tomorrow along with a switch back to the live version harp sound.

We do not intend to change the system again unless it is to add a new instrument. This pass was purely to correct the tuning issues and inconsistent note timing that was problematic in the Live version. Were we to change anything in this system again past 15.2, it would be because the musician community was in dire need for us to fix a bug/ tuning issue.

When it comes to new instruments I know many on this thread have been asking for the new sounding harp, but for me the most dire need we have for a new instrument is the violin. As for the animation for a violin just look at the NPC Gondoran harpers, Take that harp away and put a violin in his left hand and a bow in his right and there you have it.

[Emere]

To start with, I have to say that some of the new instrument sounds are very nice. I love the horn and drums. I posted this earlier in a different thread and hope to see something done like what I suggested.

"I did some testing on bullroarer with my alts. This gave me 6 characters to play some band songs with. The one thing I am certain of is we need a base to compare volumes to. I would suggest getting the lute to a volume that is acceptable to everyone and use that as a base to compare the other instruments to in terms of volume. Without that in place, its going to be hard to say how much to turn up or down any other instrument.
I also noticed that some of the harp notes now sound like a banjo more than a harp. The only real improvement in my opinion right now is the drum and horn. The sound sampling for them are very nice. Still, I cannot say what the volume should be without a nice comparison to use as a standard."

I really do hope none of this goes live until we have worked out much of the problematic areas as I have a very large library that will be made completely useless. Granted I can tweak the volumes with Maestro_Vpitch_x64v021 but from what I am hearing on Bullroarer with my alt band, I fear I would lose most songs and have to start completely over and I really am not wanting to see that happen.
I do not see why, if time is being put into this, we don't get an invite from the Devs to play a select few songs for them on Landroval or other server, and then log onto Bullroarer and play those same songs for them there. They could record it and see what needs done better than taking guesses from peoples responses here or in bug reports. I would be happy to volunteer to do something like that since I have much free time and six characters to play songs with.
If we could at least get a nice balance of the volumes, we could better judge how things sound and that will take a bit of doing still from what I seen today while playing with my alt band.

Finny


~added~
I should have asked this earlier but does the new system reflect volume for +pppp+ and +ffff+ or are we will stuck at +ppp+ and +fff+?
I've also heard people talking about having more octaves added to the system but not seen anything official on this. I am very curious about these aspects of the music as it had been something requested time and time again in the past.