Traitor in Rohan

[Hurin]

Fair enough. Then I'll be brief and refrain from the more detailed response my own argumentative nature would normally compell me to make. This has devolved into literalism and nitpicking at this point anyways. Case in point:

And Central Gondor quests NEVER will take 2 or 3 weeks. . .

. . . and on and on. . .

Yet I said "Western Gondor and Central Gondor."

(and while I used to play marathon sessions of this game for years, and I don't begrudge those who still can, for the record, I'm thinking more of 1-3 hours or so every night)

And when I point out that class deeds are the apples to the oranges we are discussing, you'll find a whole bunch of largely irrelevant nits to pick rather than address the overall point (that this is an unfortunate break with precedent that curtails long-established norms where we were more free to get to the level cap in whatever way we chose without penalty).

Your original point was (paraphrased): "How else are we going to level? And how else would they give us those points? And why else would we do the content?" I've addressed all three. And you're now saying you too would like to see it changed.

So yeah, we're done here. Something tells me that all of this might have scared MadeOfLions off and I would have much rather heard from him.

--H

P.S. I realize that MadeOfLions is under no obligation to reply. I always cringe when I see people demand a reply from a "blue."

[DiogoVP]

Fair enough. Then I'll be brief and refrain from the more detailed response my own argumentative nature would normally compell me to make. This has devolved into literalism and nitpicking at this point anyways. Case in point:


. . . and on and on. . .

Yet I said "Western Gondor and Central Gondor."

(and while I used to play marathon sessions of this game for years, and I don't begrudge those who still can, for the record, I'm thinking more of 1-3 hours or so every night)

And when I point out that class deeds are the apples to the oranges we are discussing, you'll find a whole bunch of largely irrelevant nits to pick rather than address the overall point (that this is an unfortunate break with precedent that curtails long-established norms where we were more free to get to the level cap in whatever way we chose without penalty).

Your original point was (paraphrased): "How else are we going to level? And how else would they give us those points? And why else would we do the content?" I've addressed all three. And you're now saying you too would like to see it changed.

So yeah, we're done here. Something tells me that all of this might have scared MadeOfLions off and I would have much rather heard from him.

--H

P.S. I realize that MadeOfLions is under no obligation to reply. I always cringe when I see people demand a reply from a "blue."

And if the issue is those class trait points, you don't have to do Western Gondor at all. End of the matter.

[Hurin]

And if the issue is those class trait points, you don't have to do Western Gondor at all. End of the matter.

Sorry, I did it again. Typo. What you originally excised was "Western Rohan" not "Western Gondor." But I think you know that.

Here is what I wrote originally. . .

"I have to spend the next two or three weeks in Western Rohan and Central Gondor instead of grouping with my friends or doing the content I enjoy or my toon will be permanently underpowered."

Which you inexplicably truncated to. . .

And Central Gondor quests NEVER will take 2 or 3 weeks

The End

[Nosdracir]

::Grabs thread with both hands, feet set firmly, and attempts to wrench it back to the neighborhood of the OP's topic. ::

The traitor from Stoke could be tied up by finding his corpse on a battlefield in Gondor. The orcs couldn't tell the difference between a good man and a traitor, so they killed him.

[Stasik]

::Grabs thread with both hands, feet set firmly, and attempts to wrench it back to the neighborhood of the OP's topic. ::

The traitor from Stoke could be tied up by finding his corpse on a battlefield in Gondor. The orcs couldn't tell the difference between a good man and a traitor, so they killed him.

Haha Nosdracir, thanks for that, I was getting a little worried this would turn into a battle over content, thanks for setting it straight! And thanks to the people who were battling for respecting the thread by resorting to PMs instead of responses here!

Anyways, I think your idea is pretty good. Me, I just want the story to be tied up SOMEHOW. However it's done, we need to know that the person we catch, kill, or find is THE traitor from the epic. And sorry if I seem repetitive here, but my followup question for MadeOfLions seemed to have gotten lost a little ways back in the thread, so I just wanted to ask again, if it's not possible to actually work in the traitor again, could we get some info on how you had planned to resolve his story?

[Calta]

Joins Nosdracir in tugging back the thread

Closure is nice so your suggestion would do, but I would like to know the motivations of that traitor. I said this but it got lost in the back and forth. (Please go to PMs guys......)

I think if the various traitor stories had been joined more overtly with common ideology/aim/reason , rather like the falcon clan/ox clan allegiances were spelled out nicely in Dunland and later, it would have felt cumulative and worrying rather than simply repetitive...

But I too would like to see what happens to that particular brooch wearing traitor later in the story, especially if he/they were part of a cell based group with a common aim/leader and to know whatever their common point of view was-did they see themselves as a resistance/ fifth column/greed motivated traitors/freedom fighters against autocracies/ethnic revolutionary movements/or just corrupted by evil magic.

What do you think?

[OldMadeOfLions]

...could we get some info on how you had planned to resolve his story?

Certainly! Think of this as a deleted scene, considering that it didn't survive to the final cut of the Epic.

The Man With the Blood Eye Brooch was recruited by Grima in furtherance of Saruman's plans for the Kingdom of Rohan, alongside some others (who you root out while working in Edoras). Unlike those allies of Wormtongue, however, this man's true allegiance is to Sauron and the Black Numenoreans who follow him -- his loyalty is unknown to Grima, though Saruman would have been able to discern it fairly easily. The extent of this man's evil is rather deeper than most of Wormtongue's lackeys, as is his cleverness, and he has a glut of false names he uses as he travels: Ednoth, Góding, Ianbert, Merewit.

The player loses his trail after the town of Stoke, partly due to his ability to travel safely among the Uruks, but also because he can blend into the populace of Rohan, given his similar complexion. As a result, he easily joins the defenders at Helm's Deep, and would be one of the characters players interact with during the preparations for defending the Hornburg. Players would piece together his identity shortly after the fighting begins, and we would have gotten some tension out of the knowledge that someone on our side of the wall is working for the Enemy to sabotage the defence. When Gimli is separated from our heroes and ends up in the Glittering Caves, the idea had been that Our Traitor would be there with him, getting ready to stab him in the back when the opportunity presented itself. Obviously the attempt on Gimli would fail, but the traitor would have managed to slay some other defenders in the attack.

I know we sometimes get dinged for 'tricking' players, especially when we plant enough seeds that you guys can say 'But *I* knew this was the traitor! I would never have trusted him!' so I think ultimately removing this part of the storyline was a good idea. The Man With(out) the Blood Eye Brooch therefore lives to possibly complicate things in the future, but in the story as implemented he disappears after Stoke and his whereabouts are unknown.

Also: I don't make the decision for what rewards go where (and it's a good thing, because that's not remotely my area of expertise), but generally we get criticized for not having valuable-enough rewards, not for having rewards that are so in-demand you have to have them! So I apologize if it's tedious to go through long quest stories to get a valuable Trait Point, but I do like rewarding players for playing the Epic. So it's a tricky balance (like so many things!).

MoL

[Hurin]

Also: I don't make the decision for what rewards go where (and it's a good thing, because that's not remotely my area of expertise), but generally we get criticized for not having valuable-enough rewards, not for having rewards that are so in-demand you have to have them! So I apologize if it's tedious to go through long quest stories to get a valuable Trait Point, but I do like rewarding players for playing the Epic. So it's a tricky balance (like so many things!).

Thanks for this!

One clarification though (while realizing that you're probably already aware). The Trait Points in Western Rohan that so many become alt-levelers become discouraged about don't actually come from the Epic Questline. They are rewarded at the very tippy-top end of the regular landscape quest lines. Usually within a quest or two of completing the deed for quest completion in each zone.

Personally, I'd actually prefer that they be tied directly to the Epic line. If it were up to me (which of course it's not).

Regardless, thanks for the reply. I hope it was clear by my first post that I don't consider the fruits of your labor "tedious". . . but rather it's this new mechanic that can artificially (and unfortunately) make it seem so by forcing repetition that would otherwise not take place.

[Calta]

Certainly! Think of this as a deleted scene, considering that it didn't survive to the final cut of the Epic.

The Man With the Blood Eye Brooch was recruited by Grima in furtherance of Saruman's plans for the Kingdom of Rohan, alongside some others (who you root out while working in Edoras). Unlike those allies of Wormtongue, however, this man's true allegiance is to Sauron and the Black Numenoreans who follow him -- his loyalty is unknown to Grima, though Saruman would have been able to discern it fairly easily. The extent of this man's evil is rather deeper than most of Wormtongue's lackeys, as is his cleverness, and he has a glut of false names he uses as he travels: Ednoth, Góding, Ianbert, Merewit.

The player loses his trail after the town of Stoke, partly due to his ability to travel safely among the Uruks, but also because he can blend into the populace of Rohan, given his similar complexion. As a result, he easily joins the defenders at Helm's Deep, and would be one of the characters players interact with during the preparations for defending the Hornburg. Players would piece together his identity shortly after the fighting begins, and we would have gotten some tension out of the knowledge that someone on our side of the wall is working for the Enemy to sabotage the defence. When Gimli is separated from our heroes and ends up in the Glittering Caves, the idea had been that Our Traitor would be there with him, getting ready to stab him in the back when the opportunity presented itself. Obviously the attempt on Gimli would fail, but the traitor would have managed to slay some other defenders in the attack.

I know we sometimes get dinged for 'tricking' players, especially when we plant enough seeds that you guys can say 'But *I* knew this was the traitor! I would never have trusted him!' so I think ultimately removing this part of the storyline was a good idea. The Man With(out) the Blood Eye Brooch therefore lives to possibly complicate things in the future, but in the story as implemented he disappears after Stoke and his whereabouts are unknown.

Also: I don't make the decision for what rewards go where (and it's a good thing, because that's not remotely my area of expertise), but generally we get criticized for not having valuable-enough rewards, not for having rewards that are so in-demand you have to have them! So I apologize if it's tedious to go through long quest stories to get a valuable Trait Point, but I do like rewarding players for playing the Epic. So it's a tricky balance (like so many things!).

MoL

Thank you for the reply. It's a pity we didn't see the rest of that arc. I hope the Man With (out) the Blood Eye Brooch returns.

[EyeSlayer600]

We could bring him back, just like the woman with no name (I believe) from Angmar came back awhile later.

[Urwendil]

(Pointless post to demonstrate MoL fandom )

[Laire]

Certainly! Think of this as a deleted scene, considering that it didn't survive to the final cut of the Epic.

I know we sometimes get dinged for 'tricking' players, especially when we plant enough seeds that you guys can say 'But *I* knew this was the traitor! I would never have trusted him!' so I think ultimately removing this part of the storyline was a good idea. The Man With(out) the Blood Eye Brooch therefore lives to possibly complicate things in the future, but in the story as implemented he disappears after Stoke and his whereabouts are unknown.

It would be absolutely awesome to see both him and the Black Numenorean we saw in the Eastemnet in the Sutcrofts (Crumgam) ... as well as Dargum, the orc we let escape TWICE! (Stangard and the Norcrofts-- see http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Ques...isoner_Returns).

So yea. All three of these baddies have unfinished stories. Let us finish them. >

[Stasik]

Certainly! Think of this as a deleted scene, considering that it didn't survive to the final cut of the Epic.

The Man With the Blood Eye Brooch was recruited by Grima in furtherance of Saruman's plans for the Kingdom of Rohan, alongside some others (who you root out while working in Edoras). Unlike those allies of Wormtongue, however, this man's true allegiance is to Sauron and the Black Numenoreans who follow him -- his loyalty is unknown to Grima, though Saruman would have been able to discern it fairly easily. The extent of this man's evil is rather deeper than most of Wormtongue's lackeys, as is his cleverness, and he has a glut of false names he uses as he travels: Ednoth, Góding, Ianbert, Merewit.

The player loses his trail after the town of Stoke, partly due to his ability to travel safely among the Uruks, but also because he can blend into the populace of Rohan, given his similar complexion. As a result, he easily joins the defenders at Helm's Deep, and would be one of the characters players interact with during the preparations for defending the Hornburg. Players would piece together his identity shortly after the fighting begins, and we would have gotten some tension out of the knowledge that someone on our side of the wall is working for the Enemy to sabotage the defence. When Gimli is separated from our heroes and ends up in the Glittering Caves, the idea had been that Our Traitor would be there with him, getting ready to stab him in the back when the opportunity presented itself. Obviously the attempt on Gimli would fail, but the traitor would have managed to slay some other defenders in the attack.

I know we sometimes get dinged for 'tricking' players, especially when we plant enough seeds that you guys can say 'But *I* knew this was the traitor! I would never have trusted him!' so I think ultimately removing this part of the storyline was a good idea. The Man With(out) the Blood Eye Brooch therefore lives to possibly complicate things in the future, but in the story as implemented he disappears after Stoke and his whereabouts are unknown.

Also: I don't make the decision for what rewards go where (and it's a good thing, because that's not remotely my area of expertise), but generally we get criticized for not having valuable-enough rewards, not for having rewards that are so in-demand you have to have them! So I apologize if it's tedious to go through long quest stories to get a valuable Trait Point, but I do like rewarding players for playing the Epic. So it's a tricky balance (like so many things!).

MoL

Thank you SO MUCH for this! It really was beyond my wildest expectations to get all these specifics on what would have happened! That is a great way to have wrapped it up too, so again THANK YOU for providing some form of closure for what would have happened!

Now about the cliffhanger at the end of the Rider's Four storyline at Helm's Deep...

[DiogoVP]

Certainly! Think of this as a deleted scene, considering that it didn't survive to the final cut of the Epic.

The Man With the Blood Eye Brooch was recruited by Grima in furtherance of Saruman's plans for the Kingdom of Rohan, alongside some others (who you root out while working in Edoras). Unlike those allies of Wormtongue, however, this man's true allegiance is to Sauron and the Black Numenoreans who follow him -- his loyalty is unknown to Grima, though Saruman would have been able to discern it fairly easily. The extent of this man's evil is rather deeper than most of Wormtongue's lackeys, as is his cleverness, and he has a glut of false names he uses as he travels: Ednoth, Góding, Ianbert, Merewit.

The player loses his trail after the town of Stoke, partly due to his ability to travel safely among the Uruks, but also because he can blend into the populace of Rohan, given his similar complexion. As a result, he easily joins the defenders at Helm's Deep, and would be one of the characters players interact with during the preparations for defending the Hornburg. Players would piece together his identity shortly after the fighting begins, and we would have gotten some tension out of the knowledge that someone on our side of the wall is working for the Enemy to sabotage the defence. When Gimli is separated from our heroes and ends up in the Glittering Caves, the idea had been that Our Traitor would be there with him, getting ready to stab him in the back when the opportunity presented itself. Obviously the attempt on Gimli would fail, but the traitor would have managed to slay some other defenders in the attack.

I know we sometimes get dinged for 'tricking' players, especially when we plant enough seeds that you guys can say 'But *I* knew this was the traitor! I would never have trusted him!' so I think ultimately removing this part of the storyline was a good idea. The Man With(out) the Blood Eye Brooch therefore lives to possibly complicate things in the future, but in the story as implemented he disappears after Stoke and his whereabouts are unknown.

Also: I don't make the decision for what rewards go where (and it's a good thing, because that's not remotely my area of expertise), but generally we get criticized for not having valuable-enough rewards, not for having rewards that are so in-demand you have to have them! So I apologize if it's tedious to go through long quest stories to get a valuable Trait Point, but I do like rewarding players for playing the Epic. So it's a tricky balance (like so many things!).

MoL

Awesome! If his Allegiance is with Sauron, then there is definetely room for him in the future stories and I hope he appears again and we can finally catch him. I also hope for the return of Horn and Nona. But I guess it is safe to say they will return. Right? Were the Grey Company Rangers already in Pelargir before the latest update? I think I saw them there but I don't remember seeing them before the latest update...

[Lilka]

I had more plans for the traitor, but I didn't like how some of the quests in Rohan ended up giving the impression that there were more traitors in the kingdom than good people, so I shelved it. I might bring him back in some form, but it seems every Riding had a traitor and I thought the theme might have gotten a little overdone.

MoL

I'm glad it wasn't just me. I feel this is one of the reasons I dislike questing in the zone, because I ended up hating everyone and feeling like the whole place could burn for all I cared as they were all so awful to one another!

I deeply dislike the forced quests. My first ever question to the LOTRO community was whether quests could be skipped, because I wanted to go to places I really enjoyed. After that I fell in love with LOTRO and all of my alts because I could repeat my favourite zones and quests and skip the ones I wasn't so keen on. So long as I got to cap and spent money, did it matter whether I never did Trollshaws and always did Forochel?

Now I have 4 levels 100s and a 93. On three of them I literally had no clue about the trait points, so I quested in my usual fashion - did the ones I liked, skipped the ones I didn't - and reached 100, and Gondor, without the 5 Rohan points. All will have to go back and do greyed-out content. It's that or park my chars until the next update. And I just got a shoulder condition and I can do very little else but game right now, so I'm kinda stuck doing it

But yeah. It's a huge chore.

[robbie1435]

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