LOTRO Is Lying About Burg Changes (unconfirmed)

[Spilo]

Just so everyone knows, according to recently released U19 release notes:
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...41#post7659741

Burglar has been updated:
Location is Everything once again causes Crit Chain skills to bypass 10% of target mitigations.
The second attack on Coup de Grâce, Double-edged Strike, and Flashing Blades should have the same Critical Chance and Critical Damage properties as the first swing.

After extensive testing over the last 2 builds of Bullroarer (betas where these 2 changes were supposedly implemented), neither was fixed to any degree (more details here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...tes-are-FALSE)).


I'm hoping that they actually will fix it before live release, but we've had zero confirmation from either Cordovan or from a Dev that they even realize that the "fixes" aren't fixed at all.

TLDR: Bullroarer claimed fixes that weren't actually fixed, expect live to be the same.

[Wyseman]

I dont even know what to say, its beyond pathetic.
After all the fuzz about burg and hunter changes i have the feeling we are back to the same spot before update.
Im feeling real bad, seems their only concern now is about vip houses. Real class balance and bug fixes are always postponed.
Oh i dont expect they will fix it before update, im 100% sure they wont.

[Cordovan]

For the second issue, we have now changed the release note to clarify what is intended. The second attack is not meant to have the same values as the first attack, but gets the same modifiers as the first attack. We've now changed the Release Note to: "Traits and legacies that increase Coup de Grâce, Double-edged Strike, and Flashing Blades critical chance and critical damage will now also increase the second attack critical chance and critical damage."

Location is Everything is indeed not working correctly, and should be fixed for 19.1.

Please don't accuse us of "lying", as that implies a deliberate falsehood. These are instead bugs or note clarity concerns.

[Wyseman]

Yea change the release note is a lot easier isnt?
Lol fixed for 19.1 hahaha i knew it.

[Wyseman]

If you know something is wrong now and you release a product without fixing it, isnt that deliberate?
Enlighten me.

[DKenny]

IKR, some people just pounce on anything. I think it was clarified, on one count the note was misleading and said something that was never intended. For the other they acknowledge that it's still not working as intended, however, they don't want to hold up the release of the entire update until it's fixed, so it will be fixed in a subsequent patch. I don't see anything Machiavellian about it.

[Geventh]

For the second issue, we have now changed the release note to clarify what is intended. The second attack is not meant to have the same values as the first attack, but gets the same modifiers as the first attack. We've now changed the Release Note to: "Traits and legacies that increase Coup de Grâce, Double-edged Strike, and Flashing Blades critical chance and critical damage will now also increase the second attack critical chance and critical damage."

Location is Everything is indeed not working correctly, and should be fixed for 19.1.

Please don't accuse us of "lying", as that implies a deliberate falsehood. These are instead bugs or note clarity concerns.

Can you clarify what modifiers are supposed to affect the off hand damage. When we look at tooltip values off hand damages are slightly higher than main hand values. So for me it seems pos. damage is not applied or only partially and devastate magnitude is broken as you can crit for higher values.

[Wyseman]

IKR, some people just pounce on anything. I think it was clarified, on one count the note was misleading and said something that was never intended. For the other they acknowledge that it's still not working as intended, however, they don't want to hold up the release of the entire update until it's fixed, so it will be fixed in a subsequent patch. I don't see anything Machiavellian about it.

So its all good then, Turbine can do what they want and when they want, with no consequences.
Yay lets live happily everafter.

[Spilo]

For the second issue, we have now changed the release note to clarify what is intended. The second attack is not meant to have the same values as the first attack, but gets the same modifiers as the first attack. We've now changed the Release Note to: "Traits and legacies that increase Coup de Grâce, Double-edged Strike, and Flashing Blades critical chance and critical damage will now also increase the second attack critical chance and critical damage."

Location is Everything is indeed not working correctly, and should be fixed for 19.1.

Please don't accuse us of "lying", as that implies a deliberate falsehood. These are instead bugs or note clarity concerns.

If you are aware that the Location is Everything is not functioning correctly, then why is it in the U19 notes as fixed? It was not my intention to use inflammatory language as strife causing, just to draw attention to the significance of the bugs still remaining in the update notes.

Also, simply looking at the tooltip of Flashing Blades and Double-Edged Strikes shows that the off-hands only hit for slightly less, yet when these skills critical hit, the Off-hands do significantly (proportionately) less damage (documented here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...rglar-Feedback and here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...tes-are-FALSE)).

No matter what the cause of this is, or whatever it is supposedly being fixed, according to the most recent tests, nothing has changed in regard to Location is Everything and Off-hand critical hits. Bugs and mistakes are absolutely understandable (albeit trying after 3 rounds of Beta Feedback), but being disingenuous about what's actually being fixed is not professional (which may very well be attributed to a mistake, understandably, I would just like an explanation).

[DKenny]

So its all good then, Turbine can do what they want and when they want, with no consequences.
Yay lets live happily everafter.

Well, no, there's nothing wrong with stating that something is wrong, that you want it fixed and that you're not happy about the update going live without it having been fixed. However, the accusation of "lying" seems unjustified in this case, and you seemed to imply that there was some sort of mysterious scheme related to the explanation Cordovan gave - which was that on one point the notes were misleading and erroneously stated something that was never intended and for the other that it won't be fixed until a later patch. It all seems straightforward, nothing complicated or mysterious about it.

Originally update 19 was about the usual, i.e. new content. The burg and hunter buffs were "tacked on". Trust me, hunters aren't particularly happy with the hunter buff either. At least it seems that they tried to put a bit more effort into the burg buff, even if it still isn't working properly.

[Hurin]

Some people take the word "lying" more seriously than others. Which is a shame.

In my experience, those who would never intentionally lie about something, or would go to great lengths to avoid it, are very careful themselves about how they use the word. In that they are very careful to never falsely accuse another of "lying."

Whereas, others throw the word around with reckless abandon. And in my experience, those who do so aren't at all concerned if they are found to be engaging in falsehoods themselves. Especially on the largely anonymous internet.

[Cordovan]

If you are aware that the Location is Everything is not functioning correctly, then why is it in the U19 notes as fixed? It was not my intention to use inflammatory language as strife causing, just to draw attention to the significance of the bugs still remaining in the update notes.

Also, simply looking at the tooltip of Flashing Blades and Double-Edged Strikes shows that the off-hands only hit for slightly less, yet when these skills critical hit, the Off-hands do significantly (proportionately) less damage (documented here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...rglar-Feedback and here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...tes-are-FALSE)).

No matter what the cause of this is, or whatever it is supposedly being fixed, according to the most recent tests, nothing has changed in regard to Location is Everything and Off-hand critical hits. Bugs and mistakes are absolutely understandable (albeit trying after 3 rounds of Beta Feedback), but being disingenuous about what's actually being fixed is not professional (which may very well be attributed to a mistake, understandably, I would just like an explanation).

I will have to speak more to the team to get the answer to your question about off-hands damage. For the question about why it's in the notes, you've raised the exact reason why in the past we didn't publish the notes until the update was actually live. I published the notes early, because they were basically ready, but it sounds like some changes will need to be made. My understanding is that work was done to have traits and legacies that benefit Coup de Grâce, Double-edged Strike, and Flashing Blades critical chance and critical damage apply that benefit to off-hand attacks, which they weren't. Off-hand attacks are supposed to do weaker damage, but if there's still a bug there, we'll have to fix it.

[Cordovan]

We should add that it looks like we will indeed be able to get Location is Everything fixed in time for U19.

[NeebPlayer]

I will have to speak more to the team to get the answer to your question about off-hands damage. For the question about why it's in the notes, you've raised the exact reason why in the past we didn't publish the notes until the update was actually live. I published the notes early, because they were basically ready, but it sounds like some changes will need to be made. My understanding is that work was done to have traits and legacies that benefit Coup de Grâce, Double-edged Strike, and Flashing Blades critical chance and critical damage apply that benefit to off-hand attacks, which they weren't. Off-hand attacks are supposed to do weaker damage, but if there's still a bug there, we'll have to fix it.

Hopefully, we can agree that this is not about publishing the notes early or late. If this is something that slipped under the radar, it would still appear in the notes the same regardless of whether or not you wait with publication until the update goes live. So don't use this as an excuse to delay the notes next time.

My understanding is that the op was worried this is something Turbine is trying to avoid fixing by just stating that it's already fixed. Obviously, this can't be right as we all know the players will immediately know if a bug is fixed or not, when the update is live and they start playing.

[Daniyel]

It no longer servers a constructive purpose. Or just delete my post :P

[Zanishi]

For the question about why it's in the notes, you've raised the exact reason why in the past we didn't publish the notes until the update was actually live. I published the notes early, because they were basically ready, but it sounds like some changes will need to be made.

See now, when this would seem logical, you have to keep in mind that Turbine has a long, long, long, history of incorrect/bugged/excluded information being contained in their update/dev notes as well as complete silence for plausible deniability after its been pointed out (in fact there is a dedicated thread each update for players to post the actual changes). I think posting them early is the first step to being more communicative to the players but also the first step toward being more responsible for errors.

No one is upset the changes are still bugged, just that after constant reminding that they are bugged they are still listed as functioning, leaving that age old argument as well as piling on another traditional belief over bug reports even being read or useful.

[Feleg]

So its all good then, Turbine can do what they want and when they want, with no consequences.
Yay lets live happily everafter.

Complaining about what is essentially a free game. Options: Lifetime (got value for money already), Subscription (stop if you've had enough), Pay As You Go (...).

Inferring that LOTRO developers of aforementioned free game should face either legal, spiritual or other consequences. Options : Get Lawyer (see point above), Call Upon The Wrath of Manwe (forget it), Continue To Threaten (...)

I must point out, living happily is in your hands, not those of Turbine.

Move on, develop, grow up, get a job.

You reek of butt-hurt. My free game didn't buff my character like I thought it should...

Playback:

"Turbine can do what they want and when they want, with no consequences.
Yay lets live happily everafter"

Get a grip.

[Lioncourt86]

For the second issue, we have now changed the release note to clarify what is intended. The second attack is not meant to have the same values as the first attack, but gets the same modifiers as the first attack. We've now changed the Release Note to: "Traits and legacies that increase Coup de Grâce, Double-edged Strike, and Flashing Blades critical chance and critical damage will now also increase the second attack critical chance and critical damage."

Alright. So if the change was actually just having traits and legacies now apply themselves to off-hands, then that makes more sense. I was not testing for that specifically. However, I can at least confirm that this updated change is true.

Points 1, 2, and 3 in this thread indicate so: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...n-Off-Hand-Bug

Additionally, I just tested on live, and sure enough legacies and traits do nothing for off-hand attacks right now. So that is a good fix.

The issue the burg community has been having for YEARS now, has been related to this part:

The second attack is not meant to have the same values as the first attack, but gets the same modifiers as the first attack.

Yes of course, we do not believe that the second attack is intended to be an identical copy of the main hand. We are well aware that they are two seperate entities. However my tooltip for Flashing Blades reads:

3,355-4,941 Beleriand (Main-hand) Damage
3,262-5,038 Westernesse (Off-hand) Damage

Notice how they are clearly different values and ranges for sure, but still relatively the same values. Yet the critical/devestate values read:

Boogiiman scored a devastating hit with Flashing Blades on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 21,673 Beleriand damage to Morale.
Boogiiman scored a devastating hit with Flashing Blades on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 6,655 Westernesse damage to Morale.

Boogiiman scored a critical hit with Flashing Blades on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 18,298 Beleriand damage to Morale.
Boogiiman scored a critical hit with Flashing Blades on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 10,341 Westernesse damage to Morale.

So clearly there is something bugged in the formula for off-hands. If the tooltips showed that the off-hand's damage range was only 1/3rd or 1/2 of the main-hand, then the large value gap would be understandable. But that is not the case.

And this is the issue that still extends onto Bullroarer, as you can see on the parses in the thread I linked (the tests were done on BR). The critical value gap between off-hand and main-hands even when the tooltip shows that they are relatively equal values. That is the problem, and it has still not been fixed, albeit the gap has closed a small amount since off-hands now benefit from traits and legacies.

*************

I do appreciate the clarification on what was actually changed. I cannot really blame you for wording it a bit ambigously because you are not a dev nor have you (to my knowledge) moderated the forums very closely until recently. But this critical/devestate bug for off-hands has been persisting since trait trees were introduced however many years ago now.

[Spilo]

My understanding is that the op was worried this is something Turbine is trying to avoid fixing by just stating that it's already fixed. Obviously, this can't be right as we all know the players will immediately know if a bug is fixed or not, when the update is live and they start playing.

This exactly.

I will have to speak more to the team to get the answer to your question about off-hands damage. For the question about why it's in the notes, you've raised the exact reason why in the past we didn't publish the notes until the update was actually live. I published the notes early, because they were basically ready, but it sounds like some changes will need to be made. My understanding is that work was done to have traits and legacies that benefit Coup de Grâce, Double-edged Strike, and Flashing Blades critical chance and critical damage apply that benefit to off-hand attacks, which they weren't. Off-hand attacks are supposed to do weaker damage, but if there's still a bug there, we'll have to fix it.

I appreciate the transparency and the information!

We should add that it looks like we will indeed be able to get Location is Everything fixed in time for U19.

Great news, thank you.

[Oddessia]

Thank you Cordovan! We appreciate all your hard work, and I for one am super excited for the burg changes.

[DKenny]

Some people take the word "lying" more seriously than others......

True, and it still grates seeing it as the thread title. Any way it could be change to "wrong" rather than "lying"?

[kickman77]

Alright. So if the change was actually just having traits and legacies now apply themselves to off-hands, then that makes more sense. I was not testing for that specifically. However, I can at least confirm that this updated change is true.

Points 1, 2, and 3 in this thread indicate so: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...n-Off-Hand-Bug

Additionally, I just tested on live, and sure enough legacies and traits do nothing for off-hand attacks right now. So that is a good fix.

The issue the burg community has been having for YEARS now, has been related to this part:



Yes of course, we do not believe that the second attack is intended to be an identical copy of the main hand. We are well aware that they are two seperate entities. However my tooltip for Flashing Blades reads:

3,355-4,941 Beleriand (Main-hand) Damage
3,262-5,038 Westernesse (Off-hand) Damage

Notice how they are clearly different values and ranges for sure, but still relatively the same values. Yet the critical/devestate values read:

Boogiiman scored a devastating hit with Flashing Blades on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 21,673 Beleriand damage to Morale.
Boogiiman scored a devastating hit with Flashing Blades on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 6,655 Westernesse damage to Morale.

Boogiiman scored a critical hit with Flashing Blades on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 18,298 Beleriand damage to Morale.
Boogiiman scored a critical hit with Flashing Blades on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 10,341 Westernesse damage to Morale.

So clearly there is something bugged in the formula for off-hands. If the tooltips showed that the off-hand's damage range was only 1/3rd or 1/2 of the main-hand, then the large value gap would be understandable. But that is not the case.

And this is the issue that still extends onto Bullroarer, as you can see on the parses in the thread I linked (the tests were done on BR). The critical value gap between off-hand and main-hands even when the tooltip shows that they are relatively equal values. That is the problem, and it has still not been fixed, albeit the gap has closed a small amount since off-hands now benefit from traits and legacies.

*************

I do appreciate the clarification on what was actually changed. I cannot really blame you for wording it a bit ambigously because you are not a dev nor have you (to my knowledge) moderated the forums very closely until recently. But this critical/devestate bug for off-hands has been persisting since trait trees were introduced however many years ago now.

It seems like the LI damage increase and legacies are not included i the toltip yet are in the damage. Have you tried testing this with say 2 level 105 offhand daggers (1 in each hand) and see what the combat logs give? I seem to remember my offhands hitting for more until I got my LIs.

[siipperi]

We have skill tooltips like:
xxx% of main-hand + bonus damage
xxx% of off-hand + bonus damage

Range on difference between main and off hand damage are quite small. However in case of the flashing blades we see off-hand modifier to be higher than main hand modifier. For me:
310.8% of main-hand + bonus damage
353.2% of off-hand + bonus damage


Off-hand weapon (at least on my burglar) has higher damage rating so I should see higher hits by off hand than main hand if skill tool tips were equal. So In my opinion we shouldn't see hits where difference over 3x. Especially on the flashing blades which is supposed to have higher off-hand damage modifier.

When we test flashing blades we still got crushingly low off-hand damage, without any reason. We are looking at about 1/3rd of main hand damage even though as described it should be in fact higher if skill tool tips are to believe.


So it's broken and not how devs intended it to work. And it's proven here by many players.

It seems like the LI damage increase and legacies are not included i the toltip yet are in the damage. Have you tried testing this with say 2 level 105 offhand daggers (1 in each hand) and see what the combat logs give? I seem to remember my offhands hitting for more until I got my LIs.

LIs work for both weapons. Same results no matter of weapons. No matter how you trait or how you slot LIs (even bag). My educated guess (CBA to test it) would be that flashing blades maybe doesn't get full benefit from every LI bonuses (like crit multiplier) but even without LIs as said difference is is still crushing in favour of main hand which shouldn't be the case when we look at tooltips.´

So to me it's still false release notes.

[Ardineck]

I will have to speak more to the team to get the answer to your question about off-hands damage. For the question about why it's in the notes, you've raised the exact reason why in the past we didn't publish the notes until the update was actually live. I published the notes early, because they were basically ready, but it sounds like some changes will need to be made. My understanding is that work was done to have traits and legacies that benefit Coup de Grâce, Double-edged Strike, and Flashing Blades critical chance and critical damage apply that benefit to off-hand attacks, which they weren't. Off-hand attacks are supposed to do weaker damage, but if there's still a bug there, we'll have to fix it.

Please don't revert to the old policy just because some people can't control themselves or their language. I'd rather have them early (and let you have a chance to post exciting additions) on release day than have them come out four hours into downtime on release day or however long it might end up being.

Thanks for getting them out early. It would have been nicer if the people seeing those and feeling there was an error, you know, actually were helpful and kind to give you guys time to work on it.

[Spilo]

Thanks for getting them out early. It would have been nicer if the people seeing those and feeling there was an error, you know, actually were helpful and kind to give you guys time to work on it.

We've been through 2 rounds of Beta where the problems were supposedly fixed but were clearly not. There were a handful of threads and numerous posts detailing that the fixes were ineffective and inaccurate- all of which received zero response. When I see that the U19 notes are up with the new changes listed (assumed to be still in error, which I was correct on), then it's time to use something more attention-grabbing. I did, it worked, I explained my intention was to not be inflammatory, but to garner an actual response. I was successful, Cordovan is speaking with the dev team, so the discussion over the merits of the topic is pointless. If Cordovan feels that the title needs to be changed, or that I need to show more care when selecting my words for a title, I'll leave that to him.