Player Moderators / Player Game Masters

[meneerchicco]

Until now, almost the only thing I can read about my suggestion is based on the following 2 things:
-Power (abuse)
-Volunteer

I think my suggestion is not clear understood by the community.
The problem we have is the following:
Game masters by the game are not able to watch 24/7 over the game/the in-game chat/the forum etc.
There are always people online playing the game or watching the forums.
So why not making some kind of a player moderator to help the official game master over watching the game.
The job description / abilities of a player moderator would be some kind of the following:
- Direct contact to the offcicial game masters
- Direct contact in case of bug-fixes
- Contact points in doubt for new/old players if they have more in dept questions that are not just simple about a quest or something
- Keeping an eye on player suggestions and game chat
I did say as an example that player moderators are known in some games to have the ability to mute other players but that this will not mean that it should be involved in this idea.
Also in having contact with the official game masters or giving them a helping hand there is nothing to be found which you can call power.
Also I did said that LOTRO or the official game masters may appoint player moderators or contact people who they think that might be suitable for the "job".
There is nothing said that the suggestion is to make it a volunteer programm.

The main goal of this suggestion is to give the official game master a beter view on the situations and more hours of coverage in game.
This should also improve the contact and band between community and game masters/developers to make the game more enjoyable for both sides.

Some of these reactions seem to be totally misplaced. I am wondering if those people took the time to read the whole suggestion/idea.
Some of you are rebuilding the idea now and are giving other people the suggestion that I did mean to start making player moderators and give them abilities to ban everyone, set Bree-land on fire, one shot everything in game and give them a own part of Gondor where they can be king.
I do never want that to happen.
What I want is a better community and contact between game and community with faster respond times and more coverage. The use of players can be an option for this.
But the only thing some people can read is power.

So to those people I would like to ask the following:
How would you improve the contact between official game masters/developers and the community, give it faster respond times if we have bugs or questions and to give the game masters more coverage over the game, without hiring more game masters?

[Nosdracir]

Until now, almost the only thing I can read about my suggestion is based on the following 2 things:
-Power (abuse)
-Volunteer

I think my suggestion is not clear understood by the community.
The problem we have is the following:
Game masters by the game are not able to watch 24/7 over the game/the in-game chat/the forum etc.
There are always people online playing the game or watching the forums.
So why not making some kind of a player moderator to help the official game master over watching the game.
The job description / abilities of a player moderator would be some kind of the following:
- Direct contact to the offcicial game masters
- Direct contact in case of bug-fixes
- Contact points in doubt for new/old players if they have more in dept questions that are not just simple about a quest or something
- Keeping an eye on player suggestions and game chat
I did say as an example that player moderators are known in some games to have the ability to mute other players but that this will not mean that it should be involved in this idea.
Also in having contact with the official game masters or giving them a helping hand there is nothing to be found which you can call power.
Also I did said that LOTRO or the official game masters may appoint player moderators or contact people who they think that might be suitable for the "job".
There is nothing said that the suggestion is to make it a volunteer programm.

The main goal of this suggestion is to give the official game master a beter view on the situations and more hours of coverage in game.
This should also improve the contact and band between community and game masters/developers to make the game more enjoyable for both sides.

Some of these reactions seem to be totally misplaced. I am wondering if those people took the time to read the whole suggestion/idea.
Some of you are rebuilding the idea now and are giving other people the suggestion that I did mean to start making player moderators and give them abilities to ban everyone, set Bree-land on fire, one shot everything in game and give them a own part of Gondor where they can be king.
I do never want that to happen.
What I want is a better community and contact between game and community with faster respond times and more coverage. The use of players can be an option for this.
But the only thing some people can read is power.

So to those people I would like to ask the following:
How would you improve the contact between official game masters/developers and the community, give it faster respond times if we have bugs or questions and to give the game masters more coverage over the game, without hiring more game masters?

The GMs do not generally watch over the game because there are fewer GMs than there are servers. They respond to tickets. If someone reports serious offenses in /world they may watch for a while then act.

We already have contact to the GMs via tickets. They go into a queue and are handled in the order received. It seems that often there are more tickets than the GMs can get to. Having player reps contacting the GMs would reduce the time they have to handle tickets.

Bug fixes are delivered in updates. Bug reporting does not go to the GMs. It goes to a collection database managed by SSG QA group. Bugs that can be resolved by a GM who has the correct privileges, such as spawning a missing Boss, end up as tickets in the GM queue and hope you get lucky and get a timely response. Having player reps contact GMs for things like this would be queue jumping and delay other tickets.

If you have in-depth questions then ask other players, ask in /world, look it up in the wiki, Google it, or ask on these forums. This is not part of the GM job.

Development does read the suggestions forum. They may not act on any of the suggestions, but they do read it. When they do incorporate a suggestion, it may not happen for a year or more (e.g. Beorning class).

Basically the GMs are a very few overworked employees trying to respond to as many tickets per shift as they possibly can. The only way to improve this is to hire more GMs.

I don't think people misread your post, but the mere mention of another game giving player volunteers any kind of power, like chat muting, just sets off people's alarms. They will jump on that and not respond to the rest.

[YamydeAragon]

I read every post in this thread, and I am still against this in the strongest possible way. The road to abuse will be so wide open, regardless of what type of stop gap measures are in place.

^My thoughts exactly. I have seeing that abuse happen in other forum. Humans are humans everywhere regardless what game or social panel we talk about. They will think about themself 1st & try to defend its point of view, instead to think about the health of the community & try to make a fair decision. & even if the chosen ones had a outstanding conduct record, power eventually corrupts people. At least a payed GM will be cautious to stick to the rules it don't want to lost its job.

[Yula_the_Mighty]

Didn't Codemasters employ some players as game masters in the past? Atleast I recall having couple of them in the kin when they were allowed to reveal themselves as Codemasters was transferring the european servers to Turbine back in 2011.

If you were to talk to the current Game Masters, you probably find most of them have a privileged Game Master account. Plus a regular game account. No doubt Codemasters was the same way. Codemasters Game Masters would had a privileged Game Master account and a regular game account. The Lotro developers are the same way. They are going to have a gaming account and a developer account.

Will never know when we bump in Made of Lions or Cordovan in game when he is using his regular gaming account.

[Yula_the_Mighty]

Letting regular customers be Game Masters just no. It will get abused.

I am sure Lotro customer service management has had to deal with abuse from their Game Masters over the years.

I vaguely one incident where a Game Master was using their ability to kill critters with a single command by Smiting player character(s). Somebody complained on the forums that a Game Master had killed their character in Breeland / Barrow Downs.

[kickman77]

I just wanted to underline what a false decision was PC introduction.

As far as I have seen from them, they are responsible for many development mistakes.

Anyways, my point was : none player/user should have any kind of power in his/her hands.

It is dangerous for the rest community, for the developing team and for the game itself.

We do not need neither another PC, nor player GMs, nor player forums moderators.

.
Lol the PC has zero influence on ANYTHING. It was a stunt by Turbine thats it. Maybe the third year had some input but the first two years went like this

• Devs: hey PC we are gonna do this
• PC: oh its a horrible idea (tons and tons of feedback)
• Devs: This is being added in next update

Beta hits: they gauge players reaction to the idea
If idea goes over in patch notes you see

• We have added X to game to make life easier

if idea did not go over well in patch notes you saw

• Thanks to feedback from the player council.

So basically we were there to take blame

[Nymphonic]

Letting regular customers be Game Masters just no. It will get abused.

I am sure Lotro customer service management has had to deal with abuse from their Game Masters over the years.

I vaguely one incident where a Game Master was using their ability to kill critters with a single command by Smiting player character(s). Somebody complained on the forums that a Game Master had killed their character in Breeland / Barrow Downs.

I remember that. The player had taken a screenie and posted it in the forums as proof, had the GM's name in chat text. That's when Patience was CM here. She was PISSED when she saw that screenie. Not at the player that posted the picture, but at the GM that did the killing.

[Nymphonic]

Until now, almost the only thing I can read about my suggestion is based on the following 2 things:
-Power (abuse)
-Volunteer

I think my suggestion is not clear understood by the community.
The problem we have is the following:
Game masters by the game are not able to watch 24/7 over the game/the in-game chat/the forum etc.
There are always people online playing the game or watching the forums.
So why not making some kind of a player moderator to help the official game master over watching the game.
The job description / abilities of a player moderator would be some kind of the following:
- Direct contact to the offcicial game masters
- Direct contact in case of bug-fixes
- Contact points in doubt for new/old players if they have more in dept questions that are not just simple about a quest or something
- Keeping an eye on player suggestions and game chat
I did say as an example that player moderators are known in some games to have the ability to mute other players but that this will not mean that it should be involved in this idea.
Also in having contact with the official game masters or giving them a helping hand there is nothing to be found which you can call power.
Also I did said that LOTRO or the official game masters may appoint player moderators or contact people who they think that might be suitable for the "job".
There is nothing said that the suggestion is to make it a volunteer programm.

The main goal of this suggestion is to give the official game master a beter view on the situations and more hours of coverage in game.
This should also improve the contact and band between community and game masters/developers to make the game more enjoyable for both sides.

Some of these reactions seem to be totally misplaced. I am wondering if those people took the time to read the whole suggestion/idea.
Some of you are rebuilding the idea now and are giving other people the suggestion that I did mean to start making player moderators and give them abilities to ban everyone, set Bree-land on fire, one shot everything in game and give them a own part of Gondor where they can be king.
I do never want that to happen.
What I want is a better community and contact between game and community with faster respond times and more coverage. The use of players can be an option for this.
But the only thing some people can read is power.

So to those people I would like to ask the following:
How would you improve the contact between official game masters/developers and the community, give it faster respond times if we have bugs or questions and to give the game masters more coverage over the game, without hiring more game masters?

Oh no, we get what you're saying. We're just saying it is a horrible idea to involve players in moderation in any capacity whatsoever.

.
Lol the PC has zero influence on ANYTHING. It was a stunt by Turbine thats it. Maybe the third year had some input but the first two years went like this

• Devs: hey PC we are gonna do this
• PC: oh its a horrible idea (tons and tons of feedback)
• Devs: This is being added in next update

Beta hits: they gauge players reaction to the idea
If idea goes over in patch notes you see

• We have added X to game to make life easier

if idea did not go over well in patch notes you saw

• Thanks to feedback from the player council.

So basically we were there to take blame

Boy, this is the truth. My favorite was being told that said discussion did not belong in the PC forum. We even had a couple of forum members telling others what they could say and not say in the forums.

God, the PC was such a disaster.

[bambubambubambu]

Not just no, but heck no. We don't need any of the knuckleheads in this game having any kinda power. Period.

Worst. Idea. Ever.

[Lohdain]

I re-read the OP just be sure. I did not disagree with the suggestion because I misunderstood it. I disagree with it because I understand and disagree with it.

[Rugongrod]

Any prospective GM would have to be a paid position with significant consequences, such as loss of employment, for abusing their position.

'NUFF Said!

[dmark101]

Not just no, but heck no. We don't need any of the knuckleheads in this game having any kinda power. Period.

Worst. Idea. Ever.

there are already far too many who think they do.


i do agree with the sentiment. this is just a bad idea all around.

[LabadalofDorlomin]

Frodo: "Take it Gandalf! Take it!"
Gandalf: "No, Frodo."
Frodo: "You must take it!"



Gandalf: "You cannot offer me this Role as Moderator!"
Frodo: "I'm giving it to you!"
Gandalf: "Don't tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep the chat safe. Understand Frodo, I would use this role from a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine."



Frodo: "But we cannot stay in the Mire!"
Gandalf: "No! No, we can't."
Gandalf: "Look what happened to the last player moderator"



Frodo: "What must we do?"
Gandalf: “I must see the head of my order. He is both wise and powerful. Trust me Frodo, MoL will know what to do.




Sometimes the answers to your questions are in the very story we love.

[Nymphonic]

Frodo: "Take it Gandalf! Take it!"
Gandalf: "No, Frodo."
Frodo: "You must take it!"



Gandalf: "You cannot offer me this Role as Moderator!"
Frodo: "I'm giving it to you!"
Gandalf: "Don't tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep the chat safe. Understand Frodo, I would use this role from a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine."



Frodo: "But we cannot stay in the Mire!"
Gandalf: "No! No, we can't."
Gandalf: "Look what happened to the last player moderator"



Frodo: "What must we do?"
Gandalf: “I must see the head of my order. He is both wise and powerful. Trust me Frodo, MoL will know what to do.




Sometimes the answers to your questions are in the very story we love.

Oh my god I laughed hard. This was hilarious!

[YamydeAragon]

Frodo: "Take it Gandalf! Take it!"
Gandalf: "No, Frodo."
Frodo: "You must take it!"



Gandalf: "You cannot offer me this Role as Moderator!"
Frodo: "I'm giving it to you!"
Gandalf: "Don't tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep the chat safe. Understand Frodo, I would use this role from a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine."



Frodo: "But we cannot stay in the Mire!"
Gandalf: "No! No, we can't."
Gandalf: "Look what happened to the last player moderator"



Frodo: "What must we do?"
Gandalf: “I must see the head of my order. He is both wise and powerful. Trust me Frodo, MoL will know what to do.




Sometimes the answers to your questions are in the very story we love.

OMG ROFL LMAO!! That illustration is so spot on!

[kickman77]

My sources say that the last PC (PvE and PvP one) did have influence to the developing team.

I mean, some members were authorized by the developers themselves to advice them and in some cases they did had an important role as far as development decisions are concerned.

This is a fact that led on some serious mistakes.

.
Your sources lied most likely in an attempt to either
A. troll you
B. place blame
C. Be ignorant about the situation
D. All of the above

You have 2 members of the former PC in this thread telling you it was not what you think it was and yet you rely on sources (who were most likely not in it and of the 70 or so that were in the 2 years I spent doing it maybe 15 - 20 were active with about 9-10 of those being self righteous above all else personas (mostly because they had things like special forum titles with names like Transcriber of words ect. so they thought they could speak for the devs))

Than you have the third year which was 2 seperate councils and I had close friends (both from the previous council) who were on it and told me.... guess what it was the exact same thing.. A few who thought they knew it all and 99.999999% of the feedback they gave completely ignored (see Osgiliath PvMP map and the disaster that was... blamed on the PC when they gave teh SAME EXACT FEEDBACK THE REST OF THE COMMUNITY DID AND WERE IGNORED)

So please, tell your source to get the facts straight because guess what, there are multiple threads here on the forums where not just 2 of us, but many of us (except for 1 or 2) will tell the exact same story (and I know Nymph will back me up because he and I were to the part of going insane especially with "certain" players who I am glad to no longer see on these forums)

But here I will tell you a story about the PC

• So we were promised a stipend.
• Some members being self righteous and wanting to grease the backside of the CM at that time decided to speak up and say "We do not need a stipend we are here to help the game and the players" Well, I could respect that but at the same time I could have used the TP stipend
• Some members were offered an ALL EXPENSE PAID TRIP TO BOSTON ON TURBINES DIME to tour the studio and have some 1 on 1 chats with the devs
• Some members like myself asked how that was any different than recieving a stipend since only a select few would get a trip while others got nothing for their time
• I was called out, mocked, trolled, attacked personally via PM and in the PC forums for even mentioning that (and zero moderation took place on it) at one point one PC member PM me and said I will find where you live and physically hurt you.
• The people who Called me out ect. guess what were the ones CHOSEN for that trip.
• They came back from said trip and used it as a platform to "rule over" the PC because they were "The Chosen ones"
• Nothing got done... any feedback offered if they did not like it was shut down by them because they were Hand in hand with turbine (only in their heads) and would take our threads and in a nutshell de-rail them or personally attack the posters they did not agree with
• Year 2 comes around
• I again ask about a stipend since the trip would be offered.
• I was again attacked by 5-6 newer people
• Guess who got to go on a All expense paid trip to Boston

For the record yes a stipend would have helped me, but I didn't "need" it. My point was as a group we should have all been treated equaly not some being given a priveledge that others could not. but we did not even get a Thank You. We were promised an e-mail at the end of our term with a proper thank you attached (I thought it would be a letter or something I could print, frame and hang as a nice token) but guess what, the e-mail neve came

That is how things happened in the PC

Here is another example

• Player creates Suggestion thread about open world PvP
• Devs get in on it saying how Angmar and Forochel were planned to have select open PvP events because they were deigned with just the 1 entrance and outting the warning up at the entrance would allow this
• 4 people... yes count them 4 2 roleplayers and 2 muscians threw tantrums and I mean tantrums that "what if we want to quest there" or :what if we want to farm ore there" on the event dates
• the rest of the active members replied with "there are other areas to quest or gather ore or role play or do concerts or whatever this is something the community would want"
• 4 people threaten to get kins to quit and disrupt YES THEY THREATENED TO DISRUPT any open world PvMP event.
• Guess what never happend because even though the devs had POSITIVE FEEDBACK from 8-12 people... 4 got it shut down because they wanted to role play in Angmar on those days... But hey those 4 same people cried so much about stages we now have hundreds of them in Middle earth that no one uses. So that was an amazing use of developer time eh

So yeah, and I am sure Nymph will back me up on both of those scenarios. Your source is wrong

[Aineas.]

I think it's a great idea, if you want to kill the game. However, if you want to continue with it I wouldn't advice it (due to abuse of power). Personally I would find it a shame if the game would quit due to time spend on chars.

Also we've had the PC which was a fail, should give enough example how it would play out. Learn from the past and move on, don't repeat it.

[Nymphonic]

Kick is totally spot on. I even had someone PM while I was in the PC, told me not to let the people flaming me get me down, and was wondering if I was ok from all the abuse. And once I asked a question, my thread got locked without an answer to my question while being told to only post things appropriate for the PC. And this was while all the flaming and drama went unmoderated.

It was like the PC had it's own version of Malfoy with Crabbe and Goyle from Harry Potter in the forums.

And the entire month without one blue name posting. IN THE FEEDBACK FORUM. And they appeared all of a sudden and said "we were busy guys".

Oh, and not finding out who got a paid trip to Turbine until they were already there. And that was while I was in the PC.

And the final message at the end of the year that the NDA would not be lifted with no communication as to why. If I remember correctly, that thread was locked so no one could reply to it. Well, I'm gonna break the NDA right now. There were no secrets or anything like that. It was one entire year of mudslinging, players telling other players what they could and could not say, and long periods of silence from blue names. That's it in a nutshell. There, everyone knows what went on that year. No wonder the NDA wasn't lifted, what went on did not put Turbine in a good light.

The total lack of communication was unreal.




Sorry for the rant, I just had such a horrible experience during that year, and I get worked up anytime someone tries to defend that disaster. When it comes to the Player Council, my reaction is GOOD RIDDANCE.

[WorshipOfMorgoth]

I for one would support the idea of more moderation in world chat. Increasingly its becoming deeply and sometimes disturbingly akin to reddit, with alt-right memes flying all over the place, much to the annoyance of the older, more mature and well-integrated players. I'm sure some of the youngsters now trash talking and baiting players in world chat would even start posting reaction gifs to each other if they could. In general this is immersion-breaking and bad for quality of life in game. The extreme measure of filtering out world chat, or inflating the ignore list to a preposterous size, tends to mean players are left with a fraction of ongoing conversation and miss out on serious trades and pick up groups for instances.

I'm not convinced, however, that player moderators would be a consistent enough source of laying down community norms and expectations. Some kind of training, and the possession of some level of mediation skills, experience and awareness of interpersonal communication would certainly be desirable I imagine. Personally I would play more, and pay more, than I currently do, if someone more effectively policed the world chat and kept it within societal norms of taste and decency. I would find it deeply saddening to see this uniquely special, lore-rich and fondly-remembered game become just another site of ignorance, reaction and social decline, nor a playground for bored trolls. Nor would that be in keeping with the ethos of the game, of the imaginative world it represents, or the legendarium of Tolkien. Don't let LOTRO become just another MMO, swamped by the open hostility, prejudice, and nihilism of a generation. It should represent a spiritual retreat from those all-too pervasive reactionary tendencies modernity is nourishing, and not just another banal reflection of them we could just as easily find by opening a tabloid newspaper or 8chan link.

[bambubambubambu]

Frodo: "Take it Gandalf! Take it!"
Gandalf: "No, Frodo."
Frodo: "You must take it!"



Gandalf: "You cannot offer me this Role as Moderator!"
Frodo: "I'm giving it to you!"
Gandalf: "Don't tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep the chat safe. Understand Frodo, I would use this role from a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine."



Frodo: "But we cannot stay in the Mire!"
Gandalf: "No! No, we can't."
Gandalf: "Look what happened to the last player moderator"



Frodo: "What must we do?"
Gandalf: “I must see the head of my order. He is both wise and powerful. Trust me Frodo, MoL will know what to do.




Sometimes the answers to your questions are in the very story we love.

^ So this. ROFL! Awesome.

[AccessDenied]

I personally disagree with the idea.

More importantly, this will never happen for legal reasons. I cannot recall the source material I saw - whether it was here in the Lotro forums or elsewhere. I recall it having something to do with Lotro though quite old (couple years ago, at least).

But basically there was a game company with volunteer moderators. The moderators had certain duties to perform. Something happened and the moderators sued the game company and won. As part of the judges ruling, he stated that the work required of the moderators was such that they were employees of that game company and should get all rights and privileges thereof. Suddenly the game company had to cough up hourly wages, vacation, sick time, etc. Right after that a lot of companies let their voluntary staff go because of this precedent setting case.

So a volunteer moderator in the game or these forums could automatically become an SSG employee with certain rights and privileges without ever having been vetted for the position.

We won't even get into the potential abuse of power. Except to say... I would ban the whole lot of you, instantly, the first time you all tried to log in, whether or not there was anything wrong. You could stay just long enough to hear my laughter, then :bamf!:, perma-ban! 37 years! And finally World Chat would be blessedly silent! :P

[Gandolf_TheOld]

I personally disagree with the idea.

More importantly, this will never happen for legal reasons. I cannot recall the source material I saw - whether it was here in the Lotro forums or elsewhere. I recall it having something to do with Lotro though quite old (couple years ago, at least).

But basically there was a game company with volunteer moderators. The moderators had certain duties to perform. Something happened and the moderators sued the game company and won. As part of the judges ruling, he stated that the work required of the moderators was such that they were employees of that game company and should get all rights and privileges thereof. Suddenly the game company had to cough up hourly wages, vacation, sick time, etc. Right after that a lot of companies let their voluntary staff go because of this precedent setting case.

So a volunteer moderator in the game or these forums could automatically become an SSG employee with certain rights and privileges without ever having been vetted for the position.

We won't even get into the potential abuse of power. Except to say... I would ban the whole lot of you, instantly, the first time you all tried to log in, whether or not there was anything wrong. You could stay just long enough to hear my laughter, then :bamf!:, perma-ban! 37 years! And finally World Chat would be blessedly silent! :P

Yes, I remember that, back in the 90s, a little google search later and AOL Settled with Unpaid "Volunteers" for 15 Million

[Marancil]

For the Community, this forum, and selected sub forums which can be decided upon by Cordovan, it may work and I am for it.

Before you continue yelling, I have been a part of such efforts in two large game forums before, related to Dawn of War and some game that are now handled by Gearbox. As long as the responsibilities were clear and the "community staff" had a certain set of rules to follow, it worked pretty well. Clear guidelines and a sense of a "joint effort" are key to make this work. Sure, some people may abuse the role, and others do an excellent job, but it is all an ongoing process. Some may think that because they can quote 50 consecutive pages of Silmarillion they are self-appointed, and others may think that because they are the best at Hunter Builds they should have this task. That is not the whole truth and that is not the kind of scenario that they will deal with.

A practical example; I work with tech support and I know a lot about Windows, bandwidth, network protocols and installation procedures, I could potentially be an asset to the Tech Support forum. And ONLY there. I would of course have to prove myself and step up monitoring those forums more than others and actually help people getting the game to work and a bit beyond that. Cordovan or SSG Techs would of course review my performance and others may of course give me tips on how to solve things I may not be able to work out, in a Staff Forum. I should not be stubborn thinking I am a knowitall, I shall take advice from others if needed and I shall point the players to troubleshooting guides the we may have available, and of course update as time goes, if that may solve the issues at hand. I can be kicked out anytime.

Another practical example: We have a Raid forum. Who knows Raids better than the guys who does them all the time? Put a couple of well known raiders with a decent forum presence there to help out with guides and tutorials and answering questions. In that forum, and that forum ONLY. Of course they need to step up and help out in a civil manner, just as any reasonable well behaved support function. They are of course also subject to hints and help via a Staff Forum. They can be kicked out anytime.

Among the most important things is to do this with an open mind and let the appointed people know they are in a tight spot and subject to be kicked out on a moments notice if they do not behave according to a set of rules and guidelines and can defend their actions. As it happens I also have a full set of working Guidelines that we used when I did this on the places I was active in, and still do in a non game related context. I will however only show them to Cordovan.


As for the game, as Game masters or whatever, I have no big idea what they do or what access they have, but probably not.

[kickman77]

It took you all the previous reply, in order to just tell me that my "source" is wrong?

The fact you and the other user you mentioned were in one PC, does not mean necessarily that your opinion is valid.

Maybe you were just a member of PC, without any responsibilities given?

I do not know and I do not really care, to be honest.

Knowing that you do not know which my "source" was, I strongly believe you should not be that sure about what you think is 100% true.

But, again, it does not matter, since we are not going to have any new PC anytime soon, are we?

Since -as you might know better- all the previous PCs did "golden" job, right?

And, to be honest to ourselves, we are not going to have either any player GMs or any player forums moderator.

Have a good one there

Dude you are missing the entire point and being hypocritical of yourself all at the same time. You claim to have a source thats "knows" stuff. yet, you have 2 former members of the player council proving that source incorrect in the information in you stated "they" gave you. Even far enough to give you examples of how turbine failed to use the Players Council and ignored the feedback they were given. I am willing to bet your source told you thatn "they get to play on a special server and see releases before everyone else" right? Because that is another misconception that goes around but again time after time has been proven false. So ignore the "Facts" from 2 people who were actually "Involved" and can tell you exactly what happened to believe an un named source who (guess what all PC names were made public so why protect their indentity unless you are pulling this source out of your proverbial backside.

Now let me answer all of the questions you asked even though they were answered over and over.
1. Nope I was one of the more active and vocal members of the PC the 2 years I was in it. As mentioned of the 75 people the first year roughly 15-20 actually participated.. the second year about 50 players involved with about 15 participating regularly. Everyone also had equal stake (except when it came to the free trip to Turbine in which they got a tour and watched a video) So no one had anything more special than anyone else. But I guess your source told ya that was the case huh.... ever think someone could be pulling your leg... Oh thats right its a sooper sekret source who can not prove they were actually involved in any of the 3 councils to know.

2. You care... you care ebough to make hypocritical statements and try to look cool cause you have a sooper sekret source, or else you would have just ignored my post and moved on. but since you were proven wring bu 2 people you feel the need to now defend yourself iven if they means posting conflicting information within the same post.

3. Don't know if we will ever have another PC. I do not work for SSG. I know we have the palantir Private Preview program which was around before the council and basically negated the whole reason the council was there. But what do I know, I only wasted 2 years of my time trying to make the game better for the whole community, not get stages put in that no one uses.

4. Yep I do know better because I was involved and do not claim to have a sooper sekret source and I call tell you that all 3 years of the PC were useless and flaming piles of monkey dung. The first year was bad, but wait, we were working out the kinks, 9 of you stay and serve a second year to help get this game where it needs to be... second year we were ignored by devs for MONTHS at a time. 3rd year was so good they had a rank farmer / exploiter on day 1 of the pvmp council. Someone who reported everyone on the PvMP council and was the only year they had someone violate a legal NDA (also a known forum troll) from the Regular council. So great group of people there huh. Oh and from the 4 people I know that were involved in year 3, only 1 tells me it was a good experience. What does that tell you? What does your sooper sekret source tell you? lol

5. Again you are speculating. A dev might see this idea, ignore all the people saying NO to it and do it anyway. That is how Lotro has worked for years now. I hope that never happens but you never know. But hey maybe you should ask that Sooper sekret source ya got there... apparently they know more than 2 people actually involved in something so they may know more than the developers who make the game to right...

Yeah have a great day. Hope its Super Special

[Aineas.]

For the Community, this forum, and selected sub forums which can be decided upon by Cordovan, it may work and I am for it.

Before you continue yelling, I have been a part of such efforts in two large game forums before, related to Dawn of War and some game that are now handled by Gearbox. As long as the responsibilities were clear and the "community staff" had a certain set of rules to follow, it worked pretty well. Clear guidelines and a sense of a "joint effort" are key to make this work. Sure, some people may abuse the role, and others do an excellent job, but it is all an ongoing process. Some may think that because they can quote 50 consecutive pages of Silmarillion they are self-appointed, and others may think that because they are the best at Hunter Builds they should have this task. That is not the whole truth and that is not the kind of scenario that they will deal with.

A practical example; I work with tech support and I know a lot about Windows, bandwidth, network protocols and installation procedures, I could potentially be an asset to the Tech Support forum. And ONLY there. I would of course have to prove myself and step up monitoring those forums more than others and actually help people getting the game to work and a bit beyond that. Cordovan or SSG Techs would of course review my performance and others may of course give me tips on how to solve things I may not be able to work out, in a Staff Forum. I should not be stubborn thinking I am a knowitall, I shall take advice from others if needed and I shall point the players to troubleshooting guides the we may have available, and of course update as time goes, if that may solve the issues at hand. I can be kicked out anytime.

Another practical example: We have a Raid forum. Who knows Raids better than the guys who does them all the time? Put a couple of well known raiders with a decent forum presence there to help out with guides and tutorials and answering questions. In that forum, and that forum ONLY. Of course they need to step up and help out in a civil manner, just as any reasonable well behaved support function. They are of course also subject to hints and help via a Staff Forum. They can be kicked out anytime.

Among the most important things is to do this with an open mind and let the appointed people know they are in a tight spot and subject to be kicked out on a moments notice if they do not behave according to a set of rules and guidelines and can defend their actions. As it happens I also have a full set of working Guidelines that we used when I did this on the places I was active in, and still do in a non game related context. I will however only show them to Cordovan.


As for the game, as Game masters or whatever, I have no big idea what they do or what access they have, but probably not.

Sounds like an open application already

It's a BAD idea in the broadest sense to give players power of a forum or game in whatever sense. Besides the legal problems, this will lead to several other issues. Seeing the current community, do you really expect a raid forum with a player mod to be an open discussion platform going back and forth with ideas?? lol, I can see the first claims of people being deleted for not being a friend already (true or not, it's gonna happen). This means instead of saving time, cord & co will now spend many hours looking into those complaints and finding if its true or not. And thats only 1 problem I can think of. Look, we've seen a pro doing the same stuff... Sapiens, it was his job and he just deleted post due to favouratism or handed out infrags at will. A new player will be taken the sapiense abuse to the next level... Result: cordovan & co can hire extra hands to sort through all the complaints. Its a terrible idea of the worst kind, it's bad beyond words this idea. In good times I would've had a different position probably (moria/mirkwood times) but currently it's just bad.