The history of loot boxes, I urge you to watch this!!

[Eidorf]

After watching this you will see why SSG are so keen to implement P2W Loot Boxes, but also how doing so could ultimately destroy the lotro IP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTLFNlu2N_M

[Denhith]

Great video, thanks for linking.
Continues to prove one thing, the integrity of the IP comes second to it's $$ earning potential.

In essence...with the implementation of lootboxes, SSG will have the ability to create less content and still have increased revenue.
For those under the delusion that all the whales/addicts buying loot-boxes will result in SSG giving us more content need to pull their head out.

[Amorey]

After watching this you will see why SSG are so keen to implement P2W Loot Boxes, but also how doing so could ultimately destroy the lotro IP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTLFNlu2N_M

That is a very good video, thanks for the link.

The days of loot boxes or any form of gambling in video game, are numbered.

It would be wise for companies to plan ahead and find other ways to monetize the game.

[Radhruin_EU]

Great video, thanks for linking.
Continues to prove one thing, the integrity of the IP comes second to it's $$ earning potential.

In essence...with the implementation of lootboxes, SSG will have the ability to create less content and still have increased revenue.
For those under the delusion that all the whales/addicts buying loot-boxes will result in SSG giving us more content need to pull their head out.

I hope for SSG's sake that they weren't banking too much on lootboxes being a sure-fire money-spinner... although it'd only be poetic justice if they've jumped on that particular bandwagon just in time for the wheels to come off.

[SirVile]

Especially in the circumstance with LOTRO, where they had to invent a new type of Key, which can
only be purchased from the $tore. What a galling and blatant way to implement the big CashGrab.

[ShireDweller]

Thank you for the video link, Eidorf.

Hopefully SSG will take note and correct their approach before it's too late.

[Milii]

Especially in the circumstance with LOTRO, where they had to invent a new type of Key, which can
only be purchased from the $tore. What a galling and blatant way to implement the big CashGrab.

Fake News!

Black Steel Keys can be earned by some dailies.

[Amennator]

After having watched that video I think it could be safe to say that perhaps SSG isn't to blame for throwing in those lootboxes but rather Daybreak for making them do it. I'd like to be optimistic and believe that the people at SSG didn't go through the trouble of getting the rights to Lotro and DDO to run it into the ground. Considering how small the games are at this point it's doubtful that they were ever truly relying on lootboxes as a profitable revenue stream. I could be wrong of course.

[SirVile]

Fake News!

Black Steel Keys can be earned by some dailies.

Alright: good point . . . but in my defence I was drunk when I posted that.

Still, what I meant to point out is that they invented a whole new Key, when
we alread had Lootbox Keys which covered the preceding 105 Levels!!!

So still a blatant, cheesy, ham-handed Cash Grab.

It's alright though: 50%/50% chance it will be deemed illegal by the end of next year.

[Fishgood]

Hang on, did he say Australia was doing the lootbox/gambling review as well? First I've heard that.

[Amorey]

Hang on, did he say Australia was doing the lootbox/gambling review as well? First I've heard that.

From The Sydney Morning Herald

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/gam...22-gzr3ek.html

[siipperi]

All this is going to lead nasty ending to the gamers.

[Beorthnoth]

All this is going to lead nasty ending to the gamers.

If loot boxes go, I think it's inevitable that we will se gear in the store. SSG need to get cash in - simple as that.

[danno8]

After having watched that video I think it could be safe to say that perhaps SSG isn't to blame for throwing in those lootboxes but rather Daybreak for making them do it. I'd like to be optimistic and believe that the people at SSG didn't go through the trouble of getting the rights to Lotro and DDO to run it into the ground. Considering how small the games are at this point it's doubtful that they were ever truly relying on lootboxes as a profitable revenue stream. I could be wrong of course.

I think most developers and programmers in any game want to make strong content and a fun game. But those are the salaried, everyday workers in the office. The ones who take home dividends and aren't involved in actual game creation are the ones who simply want profits, and lootboxes (until now) have been the way to go.

Anyway that is a really well done, informative video the OP linked. If I had stock in EA I would sell it now, seeing as how 80% of their revenue comes from Ultimate Team lootbox sales.

The gaming industry big wigs have only themselve to blame for this. I am not sure how long they thought they could hold on to the "It's not really gambling! *wink, wink*" stance, but it clearly has caught up to them.

Since ESRB has completely failed in it's job to regulate, or even acknowledge this potential problem, expect governments to smash that to pieces as well and probably umbrella gaming under it's own film and entertainment regulations in the future.

[Denhith]

If loot boxes go, I think it's inevitable that we will se gear in the store. SSG need to get cash in - simple as that.

They could always develop more content (as loot-boxes almost ensures less content will be made) and make better strides to promote the subscription option.

Side note: I wonder what the actual sub numbers are for this game. If over 80% of the player-base are subscribers, shouldn't the game be sub only anyway? Of course, that opens up a whole other can of worms (i.e. if the majority of players are already subbing, why is the store so prevalent in game development?)

Latest from the UK: http://massivelyop.com/2017/11/27/uk...h-age-ratings/

[Beorthnoth]

They could always develop more content (as loot-boxes almost ensures less content will be made) and make better strides to promote the subscription option.

Side note: I wonder what the actual sub numbers are for this game. If over 80% of the player-base are subscribers, shouldn't the game be sub only anyway? Of course, that opens up a whole other can of worms (i.e. if the majority of players are already subbing, why is the store so prevalent in game development?)

Latest from the UK: http://massivelyop.com/2017/11/27/uk...h-age-ratings/

Since when has an 18 rating on a game stopped under-18s playing it

[Alex53]

Interesting to note that development costs are going down and not up as companies would have you think, but at the same time they are monetising their games more to maximise profits while putting less actual development in.

In other words, it pays more to sell lootboxes than to develop content, so we get more lootboxes and less content.

Bottom line, increased profits over honest products.

The danger for gaming companies though is the long term effect of this model; increasingly cynical and antagonistic relationships between players and gaming companies. Backlashes, boycotts and scandals. And sooner than later, the changing of laws to protect customers.

They are bringing it onto themselves with their greed.

[Denhith]

http://massivelyop.com/2017/11/27/ga...ulous-studios/

[PrairieDog]

After watching this you will see why SSG are so keen to implement P2W Loot Boxes, but also how doing so could ultimately destroy the lotro IP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTLFNlu2N_M

Thank you for posting this link. The video is very informative. It changed my mind about a couple of issues relating to lootboxes. I was one of the people who had been convinced by gaming industry arguments that lootboxes are necessary to counter the dramatically increased costs of game development. The video shows that EA's game development costs have actually gone down over the last several years. I am also more convinced now that over-reliance on lootboxes is damaging to the long-term viability of a game.

I completely understand the player anger about lootboxes, and I hate them too, but I continue to recommend proceeding with caution in asking the government to solve this problem for us. After almost 30 years of practicing law, I've seen a lot of bad unintended consequences come from well-intentioned actions.

Here's one bad possibility I can think of just off the top of my head (and this is directed primarily to US law because that's what I know, but it might also be relevant in other countries). Governments are always seeking new ways to tax us. We've so far avoided taxation of items acquired in-game because we could argue they don't actually have any "value." If we're going to use existing US law to ban lootboxes, however, the easiest way I can think of to do that is to use 31 USC §§ 4361 et seq. In order to make this apply to lootboxes, however, we have to take the position that the in-game items received in lootboxes *do* have "value" (that's an essential part of the statutory definition; without that, the statute can't apply to lootboxes). Once it becomes established in US law that in-game items have "value," that opens the door for the IRS to argue it should be able to tax our acquisition of any items acquired in-game.

[Radhruin_EU]

Here's one bad possibility I can think of just off the top of my head (and this is directed primarily to US law because that's what I know, but it might also be relevant in other countries). Governments are always seeking new ways to tax us. We've so far avoided taxation of items acquired in-game because we could argue they don't actually have any "value." If we're going to use existing US law to ban lootboxes, however, the easiest way I can think of to do that is to use 31 USC §§ 4361 et seq. In order to make this apply to lootboxes, however, we have to take the position that the in-game items received in lootboxes *do* have "value" (that's an essential part of the statutory definition; without that, the statute can't apply to lootboxes). Once it becomes established in US law that in-game items have "value," that opens the door for the IRS to argue it should be able to tax our acquisition of any items acquired in-game.

Being ruthlessly exploited by soulless corporate behemoths... worries more about the tax-man. 'Merica!

[PrairieDog]

Being ruthlessly exploited by soulless corporate behemoths... worries more about the tax-man. 'Merica!

You missed my point. I'm talking about the general principle of unintended consequences. These are more likely to result when we rush headlong into something without taking the time and putting in the mental effort to consider possible repercussions. The IRS example was just a single example of a possible unintended consequence.

And I'm not personally being exploited. I don't buy lootboxes or keys.

[Scirocco]

You missed my point. I'm talking about the general principle of unintended consequences. These are more likely to result when we rush headlong into something without taking the time and putting in the mental effort to consider possible repercussions. The IRS example was just a single example of a possible unintended consequence.

And I'm not personally being exploited. I don't buy lootboxes or keys.

Good point. Gambling winnings are taxable. If lootboxes are gambling, then good luck keeping the taxman out...l

[maartena]

Especially in the circumstance with LOTRO, where they had to invent a new type of Key, which can
only be purchased from the $tore. What a galling and blatant way to implement the big CashGrab.

This is completely FALSE information.

If you have a single level 115 character, you can either get a key, or a sliver (one-third of a key) per day. The dailies however reset twice a day (at 10 AM server time a new daily activates, and it resets at 3 AM server time so you can do that same daily again), so if you plan your play times correctly you could actually get 2 keys or slivers on the same day. If you open up allegiance with all 4 factions, you can get the daily quests from the allegiance NPC, which are the easiest quests. Typically you can do them within about 30 minutes.

If you have more than one level 115 character, it gets interesting.... given about 30 minutes per character, you could get as many keys as you have time for. I have 4 level 115s, and it is not uncommon that I start playing at 9-ish PM or so, which is typically when I start playing.... and finish my dailies for 4 characters at 11-ish PM or so, allowing for 4 keys. I typically send them to a character I am working on at that moment, so currently my mini gets all 4 keys and 4 boxes, and gets to open up 4 boxes a day.

Amount of real money spend: $0.

If you have more than 4 level 115s, do your own time/reward calculations. But there really should be absolutely NO reason to spend ANY money on keys.

Case and point: I have probably opened up well over 100 lootboxes, and I believe I spent LP on a total of 4 keys or so, mostly in the beginning when I didn't have all the dailies opened yet, didn't quite understand that it is actually good to have all 4 open but just 1 active so you can get the dailies from each NPC every day, and because I was curious what was in these fabled new boxes. Granted, one COULD say that since I am VP I am paying for the 500 LP I get included each month, and therefore I PAID for those 4 keys.... but I can also guarantee you I have made way WAY more LP the "free" way over the last 3 months by doing deeds and whatnot.

Lotro isn't "pay to win" either, it is "pay to get a chance on a level 333 item that has marginally better stats than the level 330 item that you can barter for". And its a small chance too, out of the boxes I have opened I have gotten 2 cloaks, 1 shoulder piece, and 1 pocket piece - and the cloak was a double. I haven't kept count, but I am guessing I opened 120-130 lootboxes or so, so that makes it a 2-3% chance of getting something useful. I wouldn't call it pay to win, even if the armor in the lootboxes gets better after the raid release.

In short, if you have 4 level 115s, you can get roughly $7 worth in keys, based on LP prices, every day. I don't think anyone is spending $49 or roughly $200 a month on keys to get a similar chance without having 4 level 115s.... but if they are.... god bless them, and may they overcome their addiction.

In the mean time, if you want more keys.... just level more alts.

[maartena]

Thank you for posting this link. The video is very informative. It changed my mind about a couple of issues relating to lootboxes. I was one of the people who had been convinced by gaming industry arguments that lootboxes are necessary to counter the dramatically increased costs of game development. The video shows that EA's game development costs have actually gone down over the last several years. I am also more convinced now that over-reliance on lootboxes is damaging to the long-term viability of a game.

I completely understand the player anger about lootboxes, and I hate them too, but I continue to recommend proceeding with caution in asking the government to solve this problem for us. After almost 30 years of practicing law, I've seen a lot of bad unintended consequences come from well-intentioned actions.

Here's one bad possibility I can think of just off the top of my head (and this is directed primarily to US law because that's what I know, but it might also be relevant in other countries). Governments are always seeking new ways to tax us. We've so far avoided taxation of items acquired in-game because we could argue they don't actually have any "value." If we're going to use existing US law to ban lootboxes, however, the easiest way I can think of to do that is to use 31 USC §§ 4361 et seq. In order to make this apply to lootboxes, however, we have to take the position that the in-game items received in lootboxes *do* have "value" (that's an essential part of the statutory definition; without that, the statute can't apply to lootboxes). Once it becomes established in US law that in-game items have "value," that opens the door for the IRS to argue it should be able to tax our acquisition of any items acquired in-game.

I think the biggest question re: lootboxes is whether there is a financial value to them indeed. In the case of EA, I don't think there are viable ways to earning keys to open said lootboxes within the game, so buying becomes the only option. In the case of Lotro, even a F2P player (provided they bought the Mordor expansion of course) can get keys through daily quests, and since no money is changing hands.... there should be no problem.

This whole issue COULD be avoided by just removing the keys from the store. And that would be the easiest fix too, if SSG is being told by the Tax Man or their Lawyers that they can't sell chance access to lootboxes as it would be gambling, simply remove the keys from selling......

It would open up a big can of worms though, that would go all the way down to small independent app makers who sell games on smart phones.... where you get a daily chance reward, and you could buy - for cash - another random daily reward. I play several games like that on my phone (Dots and Two Dots for example), and although I never buy access to another "roll", these small independent game studios survive because people sometimes do....

Its going to be an interesting development. But as the keys for Lotro are available in-game, and you can get plenty of them..... I'm not sure if it could be classified as a pay to win scheme.

Whether near-raid quality armor should be in those boxes, that is another question altogether..... I'm happy to leave it be as it is right now, which is item level 333 armor, which barely has better stats than the ash bartered item level 330 stuff.

[Lord.Funk]

This is completely FALSE information.
If you have more than one level 115 character, it gets interesting.... given about 30 minutes per character, you could get as many keys as you have time for. I have 4 level 115s, and it is not uncommon that I start playing at 9-ish PM or so, which is typically when I start playing.... and finish my dailies for 4 characters at 11-ish PM or so, allowing for 4 keys. I typically send them to a character I am working on at that moment, so currently my mini gets all 4 keys and 4 boxes, and gets to open up 4 boxes a day...

...In the mean time, if you want more keys.... just level more alts.

Totally ignoring that while that might work for now. Soon it won't if and when the changes currently on Bullroarer goes live. You have used this argument before with others in other threads. Gotten that reply with links from others, explaining that keys will be character bound when that goes live. Yet You keep using this argument as defence of LoTROs lootboxes. It's exactly this change that is one of the arguments raised for that the lootboxes affect design decisions, as that change is clearly to make it so we can not run the daily with many alts and hand over keys to our main but rather to try and push us towards the store. Yes You can for now but not everyone has even come to the part where they unlock the dailies (basically complete whole of mordor) even less with multiple alts. By the time they get there it will probably be too late and keys will be character bound. Why do You chose to ignore that upcoming change and all the complaints people have raised about that along with other changes ???