There is injustice ! please care about me !

[maartena]

err... what? you dont get banned for using a code that someone else gifted you. there must be another reason.

Some Russian hackers figured out the algorithm with which keys for the game (for expansions, lotro points, etc) are generated, and managed to generate their own. These keys CAN be claimed because they test as "valid" towards the computer system that SSG operates, much like a keygen for a illegally downloaded game would work. They can't easily change the algorithm in the game, because there are many thousands of VALID codes out there (including bought expansions that haven't been claimed yet) that would then become invalid if they changed the algorithm.

Unfortunately, when SSG compares these keys to the lists of keys that have been given out by them (either through purchase or through official giveaways) they will see it did not come from an official source. They will likely get some red flag notifications that say: Hey, unusual amount of key claims here at this account, check it out! - They may also just do regular compares of keys claimed vs keys generated officially.

Based on all the posts above, what has very likely happened here is that the "friend" of the OP has gotten some of these illegal keys (there are scam sites online that give you these keys in exchange for e.g. a spammable email address or a facebook plugin), and has send them to the OP. The OP in turn has tried to claim one of these keys, and got around $360 worth of Lotro Points. SSG got wind of it, and banned the account....

While this may have been a mistake because the OP was gullible and believed the "friend" from which the keys came, he also very likely spent most of those Lotro points on all sorts of goodies, and it is a near impossible task to take back all of the items from the characters he used the Lotro Points on, and subsequently take back all the Lotro points as they were illegally obtained... instead they keep it simple: You used $360 worth of Lotro Point keys gotten from a scammer? Fine, you are banned and you can get unbanned if you pay us the $360 you owe us.

I'm sure that if the OP coughs up the $360, they will be forgiving enough to re-enable the account. BIG lesson here is that you should never trust keys unless they actually come from SSG.

[OghranNasty]

LOTRO isnt a court of law, they dont need to assume sweet FA.

No indeed they aren't: they are a consumer facing business. Assuming the worst in your customers just bad business.

[maartena]

remove mordor from my account and unban my account

It's not that simple. You likely already used Mordor, as in you most likely went and started doing quests and receiving XP for those quests as soon as you got your Mordor code and applied it. So you actually USED the product. If your other code was a Lotro point code, and you used some of those points for in-game content, it gets even more muddled.....

They would have to carefully strip the experience you gained from the Mordor quests, carefully strip you from any of the things you already may have used that came with the expansion, carefully strip you from any items you may have bought in the store, and if some of those items bought with the Lotro points were consumable and have been used up, they would have to figure out how to remove that.... can you imagine the mess it would be if you bought a slayer deed accelerator in the store, used it, subsequently killed the X amount of mobs you needed to complete the deed.... what work it would entail just to reverse that on one character?

It would be impossible. It would probably cost them hours, and it wouldn't be worth their time for one account.

If a "friend" offers you a free bottle of vodka, and you happily accept it.... you would probably go home, pour a glass for you and your partner, and then go to bed with 3/4th of the bottle still filled, thankful you got a free bottle of vodka! In reality, of course, the "friend" stole a big case of vodka bottles. The police catches him, he confesses and tell them all the names of the people who he gave the bottles to. Subsequently, the police comes knocking at your door the next morning and says: Hey, you were given a stolen bottle of vodka! However, because you didn't KNOW it was stolen we will let you of the hook if you give it back or pay for it. -- What would you do? Of course you can't pump out your stomach to retrieve the already consumed quarter of vodka, its gone! So you have no alternative then to pay the vendor the bottle was stolen from his rightful money, and be happy you didn't get arrested for "possession of stolen goods".

That is more or less the situation you are in. You are in possession of stolen goods and didn't know it (and likely USED some of those stolen goods), but the authorities will let you of the hook if you pay for the stolen goods.

[maartena]

No indeed they aren't: they are a consumer facing business. Assuming the worst in your customers just bad business.

The problem in this case COULD be is that part of the claimed codes (in reality they are "stolen goods") have been used. He could have done quests already in Mordor and gotten experience from them. He could have spent the illegally gotten lotro points on consumables or things that he could have sold for gold or in chat with the 2 mithril coin mail sending....

I think the "punishment" is correct in this case: Sorry to report, but you are in possession of stolen goods, and we will let you of the hook if you PAY for those stolen goods.

Any other consumer facing business that KNOWS you possess stolen goods, KNOWINGLY or not, will react the same way. If they would be lenient and say: "Okay we will unban you AND let you keep the experience you already got and whatever you already spent on the Lotro store but remove the expansion and remainder of lotro points", it will set a really bad example for those who did knowingly use stolen codes, and then go cry to SSG that they have been treated unjustly! They would just claim stolen keys, then shop lotro points or power level in Mordor or whatever and then claim "oh i'm sorry, I really didn't know, can I pretty please have my account back?"

They have to keep a consistent policy. If you are in possession of stolen goods, whether you knew it or not, you should be expected to pay for those stolen goods before you are let back in.

[Cordovan]

It may take some time to sort out, but your issue should get looked into soon, OP, provided you've sent in a ticket to Account Support through help.standingstonegames.com.

[OghranNasty]

Any other consumer facing business that KNOWS you possess stolen goods, KNOWINGLY or not, will react the same way. If they would be lenient and say: "Okay we will unban you AND let you keep the experience you already got and whatever you already spent on the Lotro store but remove the expansion and remainder of lotro points", it will set a really bad example for those who did knowingly use stolen codes, and then go cry to SSG that they have been treated unjustly! They would just claim stolen keys, then shop lotro points or power level in Mordor or whatever and then claim "oh i'm sorry, I really didn't know, can I pretty please have my account back?"

They have to keep a consistent policy. If you are in possession of stolen goods, whether you knew it or not, you should be expected to pay for those stolen goods before you are let back in.

Disagreed. If you act in good faith but end up with illicit goods anyway, I don't think you should be punished for it.

My guardian once got a bunch of great and very suitable blue and gold gear dumped on him by a complete stranger. (R. if you read this: thanks again!) That could have been stolen, theoretically, I didn't have any means of excluding that fact at the time. Following your logic I possibly have committed a crime by accepting this gift, and should be punished. Or not, depending on the status of the goods, of which I had no way of verifying at that time. That doesn't feel very logic to me, nor very just.

Whether the goods were stolen is an interesting question. Technically, assuming your scenario applies, these codes were not stolen but created, and subsequently passed the validation tests. SSG validated those keys, and did not warn they might be dodgy. You could compare that by a counterfeit note you got at the gas station, and was accepted by the National Bank. The fact that they use compromised security for these keys gives them partial responsibility.

I have no way of verifying OP's claims, but if they're true, I feel he should be helped. Happy to read into Cord's post that SSG just might feel likewise.

[Yarbro]

Disagreed. If you act in good faith but end up with illicit goods anyway, I don't think you should be punished for it.

My guardian once got a bunch of great and very suitable blue and gold gear dumped on him by a complete stranger. (R. if you read this: thanks again!) That could have been stolen, theoretically, I didn't have any means of excluding that fact at the time. Following your logic I possibly have committed a crime by accepting this gift, and should be punished. Or not, depending on the status of the goods, of which I had no way of verifying at that time. That doesn't feel very logic to me, nor very just.

Whether the goods were stolen is an interesting question. Technically, assuming your scenario applies, these codes were not stolen but created, and subsequently passed the validation tests. SSG validated those keys, and did not warn they might be dodgy. You could compare that by a counterfeit note you got at the gas station, and was accepted by the National Bank. The fact that they use compromised security for these keys gives them partial responsibility.

I have no way of verifying OP's claims, but if they're true, I feel he should be helped. Happy to read into Cord's post that SSG just might feel likewise.

I should point out that in Real Life (tm), you are guilty of handling stolen goods. It doesnt matter if you thought they were stolen or not. SSG could probably make this a criminal matter, but they havent, so it is hard to see how you can make them out to be the bad guys.

Civilian F.A.S.T. employees used to go out with the Police on raids against suppliers and consumers of stolen/counterfeit/unlicensed software; possibly they still do.

BTW, as I read it, SSG didnt "validate those keys", they banned his account as soon as he used them.

[toygar]

ok you are right, good day

[maartena]

Disagreed. If you act in good faith but end up with illicit goods anyway, I don't think you should be punished for it.

The law in the United States and most other countries state otherwise. Even if you are in possession of stolen goods WITHOUT knowing it, you can be guilty of a crime.

My guardian once got a bunch of great and very suitable blue and gold gear dumped on him by a complete stranger. (R. if you read this: thanks again!) That could have been stolen, theoretically, I didn't have any means of excluding that fact at the time. Following your logic I possibly have committed a crime by accepting this gift, and should be punished. Or not, depending on the status of the goods, of which I had no way of verifying at that time. That doesn't feel very logic to me, nor very just.

There is a difference between things that happen inside the game, and things that hold an actual dollar value. When you get some blue and gold gear INSIDE the game, there is very very few ways they could have come from something that was actually stolen. The only way that would happen is if the person got the gear from someone else somehow, e.g. was given the armor with the promise to return it after putting it in the ward robe, or was accidentally mailed to the wrong character and taken that way.... but both of those actually involve one person giving something to another.

There is a HUGE difference here. The OP has already admitted at least one of the codes was for Mordor, and if that was the Ultimate version (given the large total of dollars), that has a value to it of $129.95 that SSG will not get. If SSG does NOT ban accounts that have gotten Mordor an illegal way, the codes for Mordor expansions will just go rampant, and everyone will claim them at the most convenient time (Friday Night) to see if they can get a character leveled by Monday morning, when SSG comes in and starts going through potential stolen codes.....

Whether the goods were stolen is an interesting question. Technically, assuming your scenario applies, these codes were not stolen but created, and subsequently passed the validation tests. SSG validated those keys, and did not warn they might be dodgy. You could compare that by a counterfeit note you got at the gas station, and was accepted by the National Bank. The fact that they use compromised security for these keys gives them partial responsibility.

Let's take your example of the counterfeit note for a minute.....

If you got a counterfeit note from a gas station, and someone else later along the life of that note determines that the note is counterfeit, you will absolutely, 100% certain not get any refund. If you walk into the bank and you hand over a counterfeit note, and it is accepted AT FIRST, but a day or two later this counterfeit note is found and by video surveillance it is determined that it came from you, you will also NOT be allowed to keep the funds.

In the United States, passing a counterfeit note is illegal. If a bank finds out - even if you already LEFT the bank, and your mobile app informs you that funds have been deposited - they are FEDERALLY OBLIGATED to confiscate the counterfeit money (and any representation thereof in any accounts) and you could potentially be on the hook for a crime. In most cases, you just lose the money as in 99/100 cases you probably didn't know. This said, the handling of money between governments, banks, and people doesn't have the same type of EULA and TOS attached as this game does.

Back to this game, the codes for the Mordor expansion are just as "stolen" as using a keygen for a game and not paying for it, or using a torrent to download a movie and not paying for it. While in the digital world it is easy to claim that something is only stolen when an item physically changes hands from an owner into the hands of a thief, but in the days of the internet that doesn't really apply anymore. Physical Media is on the way out. Most PC-based games are already download only, and more and more console games are headed that way as well. The CD is on its way out, the DVD and BluRay will have another 10 years at most.... Is it theft like using a keygen and/or crack to "activate" Photoshop or Windows 10? Is it copyright infringement like a movie download via a torrent?

While you think about that question, the facts here are pretty clear: If you get a code for Mordor for "free" that WAS NOT officially issued by SSG and generated by illegal means, you forfeit your account per the EULA of the game, which in turn refers to the TOS from DayBreak games. There are several sections that will make it pretty clear that what the OP did is completely against the rules. He should be HAPPY that SSG MAY allow him to keep the account if it is determined that the good were gotten illegally, by just paying for them.

And lets be real: If you developed a piece of software that connects to your server for services, and you sell it for $19.95 to the world, and some smartazz comes along and provides a keygen to YOUR software, would you not want to ban the people from connecting to your servers who got the software illegally? After all, YOU are on the hook for the costs to run the servers.....

I have no way of verifying OP's claims, but if they're true, I feel he should be helped. Happy to read into Cord's post that SSG just might feel likewise.

Oh I feel for him as well. If he tells the truth, he got conned, and it truly truly sucks. But this is a can of worms we should be careful of opening.... He would have to provide solid evidence that he was indeed conned, and ANYONE can fake an email that says "here, use these codes, they 100% came from SSG and its free Mordor!".

Regardless, they can't allow him to keep Mordor. So if they can't remove it from the account (because e.g. the extra's have been used up such as the essence removal scrolls, and dozens of quests have already been completed and experience gotten from it), he will simply have to pay for it. And I think that is an agreeable solution. It's not a permanent ban, and he will learn from his mistake by "paying the fine" so to speak.