Female dwarves are on the way? :)

[OldMadeOfLions]

...and there's absolutely no reason our playable dwarves shouldn't be able to look similar...

Except for the part where your dwarves are adventurers, and Dís is not. 'Absolutely no reason' strikes me as a little strong.

MoL

[Lady_Lethargy]

Except for the part where your dwarves are adventurers, and Dís is not. 'Absolutely no reason' strikes me as a little strong.

MoL

That's fair, but does this mean dwarves with more feminine shapes are forbidden from adventuring?
Also note that RPed characters aren't necessarily adventurers in the first place.

[Ronimli]

Except for the part where your dwarves are adventurers, and Dís is not. 'Absolutely no reason' strikes me as a little strong.

MoL

I get that dwarven females were rare, and often kept out of sight but the 100,000:1 ratio of male to female dwarves doesn't really seem accurate either. And who says our dwarves are adventures? I have a lil dwarven guardian still in thorin after gaining 40 levels from farming and cooking. Adding a male/Female button on dwarves seems to be impossible, but atleast give us the ability to pick some less manly hairstyles and bodytypes.

[Lady_Lethargy]

I get that dwarven females were rare, and often kept out of sight but the 100,000:1 ratio of male to female dwarves doesn't really seem accurate either. And who says our dwarves are adventures? I have a lil dwarven guardian still in thorin after gaining 40 levels from farming and cooking. Adding a male/Female button on dwarves seems to be impossible, but atleast give us the ability to pick some less manly hairstyles and bodytypes.

This, exactly. I'd even be happy with just a "boobs" option at the character creation/barber.

[Snowlock]

Dís is a named character from the books, so she naturally has a unique appearance. But she's not the first female dwarf we've seen in LOTRO.

MoL

21st Hall.

That voice... I knew it.

[clrsf06]

As a female who'd love to see female dwarves in game, here's my 2cents :-) Tolkien says when away from home, the women were hard to tell from the men due to their clothing styles, beards, voices, etc. I don't see where this says they had NO female physical characteristics at all and were in reality exactly like a male physically.

They bore children...all mammals that bear children have the ability to nurse said children...hence breasts. To bear children they would have some kind of female hormones, etc. that would soften and change their features to an extent. This is just biology. As long as these features aren't played up, its very easy to disguise gender. Even with humans.

If a female dwarf traveling in a band of males is dressed like a male, has a beard like a male, sounds like a male, is not a pretty cute Cinderella type with girly hairdo etc., how would her slight anatomical differences make her stand out? I'm betting every single dwarf in reality would not have the exact same proportions (limb length, facial features, girth, height) as every other dwarf. We have beard length/style choices, body size and facial feature choices already so this Dis model is more of the same. You'd have to look very closely or undress her to see the gender difference when she's in armor. I feel most other races staring at a diverse gang of dwarfs marching across the tundra would not even notice if one was a tiny bit different, they'd all be different. Tolkien didn't say dwarfs were exact clones far as I recall.

If I did not know who Dis was, she would present as an elderly softer featured male with a slighter build. I would not immediately think "OMG it's a female!!!". Since most suspected female dwarves did not exist in the first place, I think she'd pass unnoticed unless at home with her family where she could be who she is.

I like this Dis...leave her be. It's a good compromise. If you look hard enough you could attribute some of her differences to gender....or maybe not! :-)

[Findun]

Dís is a named character from the books, so she naturally has a unique appearance. But she's not the first female dwarf we've seen in LOTRO.

MoL

why so vague? she isnt _just_ a named char from the books, she be the mother of kili & fili and thorin's sister iirc.

[Lady_Lethargy]

As a female who'd love to see female dwarves in game, here's my 2cents :-) Tolkien says when away from home, the women were hard to tell from the men due to their clothing styles, beards, voices, etc. I don't see where this says they had NO female physical characteristics at all and were in reality exactly like a male physically.

They bore children...all mammals that bear children have the ability to nurse said children...hence breasts. To bear children they would have some kind of female hormones, etc. that would soften and change their features to an extent. This is just biology. As long as these features aren't played up, its very easy to disguise gender. Even with humans.

If a female dwarf traveling in a band of males is dressed like a male, has a beard like a male, sounds like a male, is not a pretty cute Cinderella type with girly hairdo etc., how would her slight anatomical differences make her stand out? I'm betting every single dwarf in reality would not have the exact same proportions (limb length, facial features, girth, height) as every other dwarf. We have beard length/style choices, body size and facial feature choices already so this Dis model is more of the same. You'd have to look very closely or undress her to see the gender difference when she's in armor. I feel most other races staring at a diverse gang of dwarfs marching across the tundra would not even notice if one was a tiny bit different, they'd all be different. Tolkien didn't say dwarfs were exact clones far as I recall.

If I did not know who Dis was, she would present as an elderly softer featured male with a slighter build. I would not immediately think "OMG it's a female!!!". Since most suspected female dwarves did not exist in the first place, I think she'd pass unnoticed unless at home with her family where she could be who she is.

I like this Dis...leave her be. It's a good compromise. If you look hard enough you could attribute some of her differences to gender....or maybe not! :-)

Believe it or not, I (as another female player) like this Dís, too, and the reasons you listed (easy to disguise, wouldn't stand out, all that), are exactly why I think we need properly playable female dwarves now. That said, I don't think this is something that can just be met in the middle. It's either one way or the other. Consistency is important, and so is variety. If Dís can have a feminine build, our dwarves should be able to, too, and whether that build is hidden or not should be up to the player. The male "disguises" (Dísguises? ) should be made, by choice, by players using the actual modest, masculine cosmetics in the game. When you put the bare-chested cosmetic on our current dwarves (note that this particular cosmetic's effect should be altered for the new female dwarves for obvious reasons), the argument that they're just hiding those breasts under clothing goes right out the window. That is a male chest. Or do dwarf women change sexes when they take their shirts off?
So again, one way or the other. I like the Dís, but if you can't offer that same body type to playable dwarf women, you shouldn't give it to NPCs.

[zipfile]

Please either significantly defeminize her or let us play dwarves with that body type.

Or else what? You gonna throw a tantrum?

[Lady_Lethargy]

Or else what? You gonna throw a tantrum?

Nope. However, I do feel it's important for SSG to listen to their players' feedback, especially here in the Bullroarer forum.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

Nope. However, I do feel it's important for SSG to listen to their players' feedback, especially here in the Bullroarer forum.

*laughs hysterically*

[zipfile]

Nope. However, I do feel it's important for SSG to listen to their players' feedback, especially here in the Bullroarer forum.

Well, if you think that's gonna happen...I won't correct your ignorance, you should know better by now.

[tuor66]

Dís is a named character from the books, so she naturally has a unique appearance. But she's not the first female dwarf we've seen in LOTRO.

MoL

Well Played!

[tuor66]

They bore children...all mammals that bear children have the ability to nurse said children...hence breasts. To bear children they would have some kind of female hormones, etc. that would soften and change their features to an extent. This is just biology. As long as these features aren't played up, its very easy to disguise gender. Even with humans.

Dwarves aren't humans, we don't even know for sure that they are mammals. Tolkien never said much about Dwarven childbirth or reproduction. We do know Aulë made them based on incomplete knowledge of the Children of Iluvatar, but neither group had awoken yet. That being said, it is reasonable to suppose he took his cues from the other creatures that existed in Middle-earth at the time but consider this. Human females are the only mammals with permanently swollen breasts. Even our nearest ape relatives have ones that swell when nursing. Also not all mammals have obvious differences between the sexes or 'soft' feminine features. This is more of a human trait. Besides the genitals how different (visually) is a male house cat from a female? So, who knows?

[danquanngaytho]

Mother and sister of heroes of Middle Earth

[Alhvar]

Except for the part where your dwarves are adventurers, and Dís is not. 'Absolutely no reason' strikes me as a little strong.

MoL

Dwarves may in lore have stay-at-home females, but hobbits is an entire stay-at-home race. We know only of a very few hobbits that ever went to war in foreign lands, and they were often confused with human children. To the best of my knowledge female hobbit warriors taking part in foreign wars, such as in Gondor or Rohan, is entirely unheard of, yet there is a female hobbit player character option. I do not see why whatever rationale is applied regarding hobbit females would not also apply regarding dwarf females.

[Thakalgundian]

Dís is a named character from the books, so she naturally has a unique appearance. But she's not the first female dwarf we've seen in LOTRO.

MoL

Thank you for your reply MoL, much appreciated.
Indeed, she is a named character from the books and she isn't the first female dwarf we've seen in LOTRO, agreed.
Though, correct me if I'm wrong, she would be the first dwarf in the game with such a distinct female form - a fact which in my opinion conflicts with the below quote from the appendices:

"They seldom walk abroad except at great need, They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart."

If I break up the above quote and consider the Dís character currently on Bullroarer and your other comment ("Except for the part where your dwarves are adventurers, and Dís is not.") to justify her present form, these are my thoughts:

"They seldom walk abroad except at great need" - "abroad" could mean "in a foreign country" or the more archaic "out of doors"; either way the fact that Dís is where she is on Bullroarer is indeed possible. Perhaps the quests she will provide will offer one or more reasons for her "great need" to actually be "abroad". The argument here goes both ways of course, any player character that identifies as a female dwarf is equally entitled to be "abroad" (or on adventures, as you put it), just as it does with hobbits (or any other playable race) in LOTRO.

"They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart." - The fact that according to you MoL our characters are "adventurers" and because of this fact they would all look alike gender-wise, while Dís is not an adventurer and a named character from the books and hence has the freedom to show her female forms is a rather strange argument in view. The quote here says that females are in voice and appearance alike to the dwarf-men, so much so that other races can't tell them apart. In addition, if dwarf females go on a journey they also ensure they look like dwarf-men in garb. You could argue if Dís is on a journey here or not (seeing she is outside of Erebor), but the fact remains that she is in appearance not alike to the dwarves we've seen so far in LOTRO, regardless if she is an adventurer or not (or named in the books), everyone can clearly tell her apart from the other dwarves we've seen so far.

The fact that an MMO like LOTRO has no choice but to adapt the lore somewhat to accommodate the game to a certain degree is fully understandable, but to do so selectively for one character of a race (regardless if she is a named character from the books) and not for all, strikes me as inconsistent.
To be clear, I'm not advocating to change her form, I merely advocate for some consistency in the game on this point.

Cheers

[ertr]

As a female who'd love to see female dwarves in game, here's my 2cents :-) Tolkien says when away from home, the women were hard to tell from the men due to their clothing styles, beards, voices, etc. I don't see where this says they had NO female physical characteristics at all and were in reality exactly like a male physically.

They bore children...all mammals that bear children have the ability to nurse said children...hence breasts. To bear children they would have some kind of female hormones, etc. that would soften and change their features to an extent. This is just biology. As long as these features aren't played up, its very easy to disguise gender. Even with humans.

Tolkien said that Dwarf-women were so similar to Dwarf-men that non-dwarves (which includes all of us players) couldn't tell them apart. They undoubtedly had some physical differences, but it is possible those would only be visible during a detailed medical examination.
As for breasts - human females are very unusual among mammals in having such large breasts, especially when not nursing. Look for example at cats - it can be very hard to distinguish a male cat from a female cat without a close examination of their genitals. While female cats do have breasts, they are not really noticable unless the cat has nursing kittens.

Remember that dwarves are a created race. They are not related to humans, and there is no a priori reason to believe that female dwarves would share the secondary sex characteristics of human females.

[abrahamL]

Threads like these are why I love LOTR so much and this game in particular. SSG drops in a female dwarf NPC and suddenly there are almost 50 comments in a thread that a dev has responded to no less. I knew very little about dwarf females except that they are rarely seen and hard to distinguish from males at times.

[Beorthnoth]

Believe it or not, I (as another female player) like this Dís, too, and the reasons you listed (easy to disguise, wouldn't stand out, all that), are exactly why I think we need properly playable female dwarves now. That said, I don't think this is something that can just be met in the middle. It's either one way or the other. Consistency is important, and so is variety. If Dís can have a feminine build, our dwarves should be able to, too, and whether that build is hidden or not should be up to the player. The male "disguises" (Dísguises? ) should be made, by choice, by players using the actual modest, masculine cosmetics in the game. When you put the bare-chested cosmetic on our current dwarves (note that this particular cosmetic's effect should be altered for the new female dwarves for obvious reasons), the argument that they're just hiding those breasts under clothing goes right out the window. That is a male chest. Or do dwarf women change sexes when they take their shirts off?
So again, one way or the other. I like the Dís, but if you can't offer that same body type to playable dwarf women, you shouldn't give it to NPCs.

You're anthropomorphising by imposing human secondary sexual anatomy on an entirely different species. The disparity in breast size of male and female #### sapiens is pretty much unique in genus mammalia, especially in non-pregnant females, even amongst primates.

While you're around, MoL, can you get someone to persuade the stupid filter on here to recognise the Latin for man <Fumes, stomps off, etc>

[Thakalgundian]

You're anthropomorphising by imposing human secondary sexual anatomy on an entirely different species.

I don't think Rainshade is the one doing the anthropomorphizing here. We are merely looking at the character SSG has created here, and providing our views. A character who clearly is a dwarf with shapes meant to look feminine (the familiar sexual dimorphism seen among humans that is). Apart from the fact that dwarves would appear alike regardless of their gender we have no idea about the specific details (however faint perhaps) of sexual dimorphism among dwarves (as they were never provided by Professor Tolkien). By creating Dís in this form however, SSG is transferring human female features onto this character (which may very well not be present among dwarves), hence they are the ones doing the anthropomorphizing. Again, I'm fine with Dís as a character and love what the devs have done here. But to introduce this shape for an NPC dwarf only naturally will open up the demand from the player base. As the introduction of this female form acknowledges that in LOTRO dwarves have sexual dimorphism alike that of humans, hence why would the dwarf player character be any different, seeing they are of the same race as Dís?

[Beorthnoth]

I don't think Rainshade is the one doing the anthropomorphizing here. We are merely looking at the character SSG has created here, and providing our views. A character who clearly is a dwarf with shapes meant to look feminine (the familiar sexual dimorphism seen among humans that is). Apart from the fact that dwarves would appear alike regardless of their gender we have no idea about the specific details (however faint perhaps) of sexual dimorphism among dwarves (as they were never provided by Professor Tolkien). By creating Dís in this form however, SSG is transferring human female features onto this character (which may very well not be present among dwarves), hence they are the ones doing the anthropomorphizing. Again, I'm fine with Dís as a character and love what the devs have done here. But to introduce this shape for an NPC dwarf only naturally will open up the demand from the player base. As the introduction of this female form acknowledges that in LOTRO dwarves have sexual dimorphism alike that of humans, hence why would the dwarf player character be any different, seeing they are of the same race as Dís?

What we really need is a profile screen shot, rather than head on.

[Thakalgundian]

What we really need is a profile screen shot, rather than head on.

Tbh the head-on-shot is clear enough in my view.
The smaller shoulders vs the wider hips or the face might be debatable, but just look at the chest and the curves on the robe, clearly female shapes.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

The one thing I do not like is that you can really tell shes a Female dwarf, but it is what it is. Thought missing the fact others can't tell, now we can, I say the face is fine, but some of the body shape no. just my opinion.

[OldMadeOfLions]

"abroad" could mean "in a foreign country" or the more archaic "out of doors"; either way the fact that Dís is where she is on Bullroarer is indeed possible.

My interpretation of 'abroad' is more in line with the idea of journeying, and Dís isn't journeying. She lives at Raven-hill, a dominion of Erebor (and where its ravens were kept for years and years); you're seeing her at home. If she went to Gondor, I think she'd bundle up a great deal and Tolkien's description would be well-served.

Threads like these are why I love LOTR so much and this game in particular.

Me too! I should probably be clear that convincing me isn't going to suddenly add this body-type for playable female dwarves, since this is well beyond my call: I'm neither an artist nor able to make that happen. I just love talking about LOTRO.

...hobbits is an entire stay-at-home race. We know only of a very few hobbits that ever went to war in foreign lands.

Agreed! Back in 2005 I suggested that any playable hobbits should be required to stay in the Shire, and that they should have only peaceable classes: crafting, gardening, etc. That would have been more true to the book. To the purists, I'm sorry I didn't fight harder! But I'm not that sorry: if I had, we'd never have gotten Bingo Boffin.

But to introduce this shape for an NPC dwarf only naturally will open up the demand from the player base.

Bombur is in the game too. Why don't all my playable dwarves look like Bombur?

MoL