Champion Feedback Thread

[Brain9H]

I'm deeply concerned that the devs will balance our class as being "the AoE class". (See Tybur's interview at minute 12:15+ on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5T3...youtu.be&t=735)

That could explain why yellow is ahead of red right now. The trouble is that raid bosses are single-target encounters.

A DPS class that doesn't provide competitive single-target damage will always be left behind in raids.

Therefore I urge the Devs to increase red damage a lot.

Best regards!

[Giliodor]

I'm deeply concerned that the devs will balance our class as being "the AoE class". (See Tybur's interview at minute 12:15+ on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5T3...youtu.be&t=735)

That could explain why yellow is ahead of red right now. The trouble is that raid bosses are single-target encounters.

A DPS class that doesn't provide competitive single-target damage will always be left behind in raids.

Therefore I urge the Devs to increase red damage a lot.

Best regards!

I completely agree. Red line champions should be just as viable for single target as any other class. I've always considered my champion to be a red line champions, because for me, the champion theme is "The Berserker". I'd be very disappointed if that opinion was deemed less valuable than someone else's opinion, claiming that champions are an AoE class.

Please make red champions viable. There's no reason not to.

[Gertes]

Champion
1• Sudden Defence now works properly upon specialization and upon earning the Blue-line set bonus "Good Defence/Strong Offence"
2• Increasing skill damage for skills marked as Strike Skills
3• Increased bracing attack healing
4• Morale heal increased from 200% of Power consumed to 400% of Power consumed
5• Rend Armour Value increased

2. The Strike DMG increase on the Tooltips seems higher than the actual outcome, yellow ist still about 3-4k DPS Higher on single Target then Red.
3. Its now ~3, still way to low, but in my opinion buffing this skill should not be Number one Priority
5. It's about 14,5k Armor Debuff now, what is nice but also nothing super important to Buff imO.

Things I would like to talk about:
-The First Attack of Ragingblades is still much lower Damage than the second or third one (even if this Change is intended I would like to see a more even distribution between the attacks)
-Yellow feels still clunky (animations), and my high Elfe deals around 10% more damage then my Dwarf in yellow line (50k singeltarget Dps in Yellow, with slightly worse equip), because his animations feel much more smoother/faster
-Redline needs further work, the Aim needs to be much a higher Singeltarget Dps then yellow ( i would say at least 20% or even more differents to yellow)
-We still have the Problem if you Buff redline, yellow gets partialy buffed as well (a nice solution would be changes/buffs in the red Skilltree it selfe, to apply buffs just to redline). I think red could need a new or buffed Damage cooldowns, if you compare your selfe buffs to yellow line you have almost nothin special in Red.

-Pls always keep in Mind that hunter/rk get an amazing boost in there Dps, in Group content do to fire mitigation debuffs. Simmilar Boost are missing for champ, so i would say it would be fair if he deals without any Buffs/debuffs a bit more Dps then a hunter


(i was out if Power for the last 20seconds and still did more Damage compared to Redline)

[Giliodor]

I still do more DPS in red line than I do in yellow line. I probably am doing something wrong in yellow, but red line seems very decent now.

Observations

• Strike skills were indeed buffed, but Remorseless Strike was not. As a result, yellow line got (almost) all the benefits from this increase. Yellow line consequently still does (or can do) more DPS than red on single targets. This is ridiculous.
• [Bug] Ferocious Strikes' first hit does the same damage as its second hit, while its third does less than the former. On live servers, the damage is increasing on each attack. This seems like scaling gone wrong to me.
• Attacks still feel somewhat sluggish, but the damage was increased, so speeding it up at this point would put champions in perhaps too good of a spot.
• Ticks from Deep Strikes rarely trigger, because they don't do initial damage, and crits follow eachother in such rapid succession.

Concerns
RKs and Hunters are still going to outperform champions due to the way they interact with LM debuffs, and their own debuffs. As such, it seems to me that, if your aim is truly to create a balanced PvE environment, you have to reduce the potency of the mitigation debuffs that RKs and LMs offer. They are too strong, and syngergise with eachother far too well.

Dummy parse:

[Rocker3388]

Good evening, the rework on champs seems to be going in the right direction, except for one thing, I believe something is escaping from devs here.
For red line to be the useful as ST Dps again (and not simply an anti-aoe mechanic, what may have caused all the unballance), you must be aware that yellow line champs can take advantage of 2 really strong striking skills from red line, "brutal strikes" and "feroucious strikes". Most raiders are now using hybrid LIs since those skills have legacies for them (Yellow Main, Red Secondary) thus, they can benefit not only from all yellow line debuffs and buffs, and high damage of some skills, but also from the strong dps of those two strike skill I mentioned before.
Except for raging blades which got a nerf (maybe a bug?), yellow line is in the right spot right now. It has a great chance of getting overpowered if you dont do the same as you did with blue line, change the order of some traits in the tree.
If this continue, you will be only getting a line that wasnt really broken even stronger.

I believe there are many ways to fix this and not break low level red champions who are going to rely on those skills at the beggining of their journey.
You could set feroucious strikes deeper in red line (6th or even 7th row) or make it a exclusive skill of red line.
Also, is too easy for hybrid yellow champs to get these traits from red "Vicious Strikes", "Wild Swings, "Critical increase chance", "Strong armed swings" and deadly strikes"

Once red tree is rearranged, berserker champs will finally be usefull again. Remorseless Strikes is a skill which red champs use a lot. It got nerfed for some reason, and imo it should be one of the most buffed skills.

My verdict is: this balance is being great, but came to the point it should take in another direction now, to rearrange red tree so yellow or "blue" wont benefit so much from it. Then u can increase even more strike skills in a way only red champs will really get advantage of it. Hope my feedback help to avoid yellow champs being OP and red being competitive with hunters/rks in ST dps.

[gaara908776]

Don't fret quite yet champs. In Minas Tirith there is a new FI vendor. The FI vendor gives level 115 gear, and the warden set bonus is -15% marked and diminished target debuff. Warden tanks just got buffed and will be able to keep these debuffs up on 5x targets 100% of the time if these set bonuses make it to live. So essentially if a champ wants to raid, a Warden is gonna boost their dps astronomically

[Grimlir83]

I have not seen the new build, but one thing : bracing attack. They wrote this skill is now more powerful, does someone here know what is exactly changed in its power ? I do not use it even in blue line because I thought it was useless, did it become useful ?

[RingOfFire]

A quick glance at this build is showing seems to have Champions in a more complete state than the previous one, though they still need more work to balance out their specializations.

Patch Notes Observations:

• Sudden Defence now works properly upon specialization and upon earning the Blue-line set bonus "Good Defence/Strong Offence" -- This skill is definitely working as intended now. However, I would instead change the Blue-line set bonus to instead decrease incoming damage by 10% while the bubble is active, as this is a tanking specialization.
• Increasing skill damage for skills marked as Strike Skills -- While this helps bring DPS in Red-line up somewhat, there is still an issue in that Yellow-line can access Brutal Strikes and Ferocious Strikes with the large number of Class Trait Points we have by level cap, pushing its DPS further ahead still compared to Red-line. Any further buffs to Red-line would probably need to be within the Red-line set bonuses, or the specialization itself, to avoid this.
• Increased Bracing Attack healing -- While nice in theory, this skill still does not provide much healing compared to how much Morale is possible at level 106+.
• Morale heal increased from 200% of Power consumed to 400% of Power consumed -- Assuming this has to do with Dire Need, it still only heals for a rather small portion of a Champion's Morale pool if they're geared for tanking at level cap. Assuming an Elf racial buff, a base Power pool of 6,168 is possible without Legendary Item relics, which means at absolute max a base Morale heal of ~14,803. This is simply not enough on its own, compared to what other tanking roles are capable of.
• Rend Armour Value increased -- Not much to say here, though the increase is nice.

Red-line Feedback:
Before getting further into Berserker feedback, I did some testing and math and came up with the following results for Strike skill damage formulas at this time (assuming a two-handed weapon is equipped and not dual-wielding). Each result is the percentage multiplier then applied to the equipped weapon's damage range on skill use:

Damage Formula:
d = Base Skill Damage Modifier (unique value for each skill, directly modifies Physical Mastery damage bonus if present)
pm = Physical Mastery (also includes any direct modifiers to Melee Damage for melee skills)
bsd = Bonus Skill Damage Modifier (includes bonuses to specific skills and bonuses to skills of a particular type ie. Strike, and is separate from Physical Mastery)
l = Legacy Damage Multiplier

(d * 1.00) + (d * (pm * 1.00)) = Modified Base Damage (mbd)
(mbd * 0.01) * bsd = Modified Skill Damage (msd)
(mbd * 0.01) * l = Modified Legacy Damage (mld)
mbd + msd + mld = Total Weapon Multiplier (twm)

According to my calculations, pm (Physical Mastery) is only an additional modifier which is multiplied by d when factored into weapon damage. Even if pm is equal to 0, d will simply multiply a weapon's damage range by itself. Therefore, if testing at 400% Physical Mastery, d is equal to exactly five times its base percentage and can be determined by simply dividing the percentage listed on the tooltip by 5.

However, there is also a unique bonus damage value on a skill-by-skill basis separate from weapon damage. And for every skill I've tested so far in Red-line at level 115, it's approximately ~165.6, which is then multiplied by the Total Weapon Multiplier result calculated above (for example, if a melee skill has a twm value of 750% and a single weapon with a damage range of 776-1,293 is equipped, the damage range of that skill will always be 7,062-10,940:

750% of 776-1,293 = 5,820-9,697.5
750% of 165.6 = 1,242
5,820-9,697.5 + 1,242 = 7,062-10,939.5, which the tooltip will then round up to a final total of 7,062-10,940

(tested with Merciful Strike at 400% Physical Mastery with item level 355 Weighted Bludgeon of the Pathfinder's Artifice equipped (776-1,293 damage range), no off-hand weapon -- this can be confirmed through testing in the Eyes & Guard Tavern)

These calculations do not take any critical damage multipliers into account, but should make them relatively easy to calculate.

Specific Skill Feedback:
With this formula, I can then establish the following base Strike skill damage values at level 115 (again, assuming a two-handed weapon is equipped and not dual-wielding):

Wild Attack -- 130% (Main-hand + 165.6 bonus damage)
Swift Strike -- 130% (Main-hand + 165.6 bonus damage)
Devastating Strike -- 175% (Main-hand + 165.6 bonus damage)
Feral Strikes -- [1] 130% (Main-hand + 165.6 bonus damage), [2] 110% (Main-hand + 165.6 bonus damage)
Brutal Strikes -- [1] 135% (Main-hand + 165.6 bonus damage), [2] 135% (Main-hand + 165.6 bonus damage), [3] 113% (Main-hand + 165.6 bonus damage)
Remorseless Strike -- 175% (Main-hand + 165.6 bonus damage)
Merciful Strike -- 150% (Main-hand + 165.6 bonus damage)
Ferocious Strikes -- [1] 165% (Main-hand + 165.6 bonus damage), [2] 165% (Main-hand + 165.6 bonus damage), [3] 152% (Main-hand + 165.6 bonus damage)

At this point, further buffing the Base Skill Damage Modifier of Strike skills globally (or anything within the Berserker trait tree) is going to buff Yellow-line as a side effect, which will then continue to leave Red-line behind when DPS'ing single targets -- which would frankly leave no reason to use this specialization at all. If Red-line is to become the ideal choice for single-target DPS, any further improvements need to be locked behind the core specialization itself and its trait set bonuses.

The two unique skills to Red-line right now are Devastating Strike and Remorseless Strike, so any further increases to Base Skill Damage Modifier would need to be to these two skills only if the improvements are to remain solely within Red-line. Right now, the Base Skill Damage Modifier for both of these is exactly the same, with the only characteristics setting these two skills apart from each other are the following:

• Devastating Strike
  
  • +10% Incoming Melee Damage (8s) debuff
  • Adds 2 to Fervour
  • 40% Mitigation bypass ("Devastation" tier 6 trait set bonus)
  • 12s cooldown
  
  
• Remorseless Strike
  
  • Massive critical damage multiplier
  • Costs 4 Fervour
  • +5% (+25% max) chance to crit proc'ed with every Strike skill used, consumed on crit
    
    • Additional +10% (+50% max) Critical Damage Multiplier with every Strike skill used, consumed on crit ("Emboldened Blades Increase" tier 3 trait set bonus)
    
    
  • Cannot be Blocked or Parried
  • 1.8s cooldown

Personally, I would start with increasing the Base Skill Damage Modifier of Remorseless Strike from 175% to 225%, which (assuming maxed-out two-handed weapon with Grand Abyssal Rune of Striking, 400% Physical Mastery, no legacies) would give it a maximum base damage range of ~13,226-20,797 compared to 10,289-16,180 for Devastating Strike, as despite its low cooldown it consumes a lot of Fervour Pips and needs Emboldened Blades to tier up to reliably crit. I would also turn Devastating Strike into more of a damage-buffing skill, by having the "Devastation" tier 6 trait set bonus also increase the skill's +10% Incoming Melee Damage debuff to 20% (which then has the benefit of synergy with other melee classes by increasing their DPS against that specific target).

As for any other Strike skills, I would personally avoid increasing their Base Skill Damage Modifier further than what it is now. Instead, I would remove the Strong Armed Swings trait from the Berserker trait tree and instead add a permanent +15% Strike Skills Damage buff to the "Emboldened Blades Increase" tier 3 trait set bonus along with its other bonuses.

Finally, I would change the "Continuous Blood Rage" tier 7 trait set bonus to additionally modify Blood Rage to give 1 Fervour Pip every second for 10 seconds, to allow the skill to be used as a "burn hot" buff along with its temporary Power Cost reduction buff, as well as to serve as a thematic capstone trait for the Berserker specialization.

Yellow-line Feedback:
The Deadly Storm specialization is looking in a pretty good place at the moment, though personally I would make a few tweaks to tighten its focus a bit further:

• Combine the Great Cleave and Battle Acuity traits, remove them from the Deadly Storm trait tree, and instead replace Born for Combat as a tier 7 trait set bonus with this new combined trait.
• Remove Born for Combat as a tier 7 trait set bonus, and instead have it be a tier 4 trait available for all specializations in the Deadly Storm trait tree.

Frankly, Great Cleave doesn't really have much use outside of Yellow-line, but the unique mechanics of Born for Combat would give it some potential value to Red-line and Blue-line if a player is willing to invest that many Class Trait Points in the Deadly Storm trait tree (which is likely, considering how 20k Finesse is available as a tier 4 trait in that same tree). While a Red-line Champion may not be as likely to find use for the Born for Combat skill, a Blue-line Champion will, as an AoE skill unlocked by being hit by mobs with only a 4 second cooldown will synergise well with Masochism in Blue-line.

Blue-line Feedback:
While I do not have much experience with this specialization, I've seen enough tanking situations both as DPS and a healer to say there are still a number of improvements which could be made here:

• As I mentioned at the beginning of this post, the +10% Melee Damage buff while Sudden Defence is active ("Good Defence/Strong Offence" tier 2 trait set bonus) would be better as a -10% Incoming Damage buff instead, as this is a tanking specialization. This would also passively strengthen the Sudden Defence bubble.
• I've seen it mentioned by others elsewhere that the "Exalted Combatant" tier 3 trait set bonus does not take effect if the Morale percentage threshold is passed by an incoming attack which also reduces Morale to 0. Changing this to work like Never Surrender does for Wardens would be perfect here, to help protect against an unexpected massive hit or other similar situation.
• Bracing Attack currently does little healing compared to how much Morale a Champion will generally have by the time they reach level cap, as well as compared to how much damage they will be taking. Having the "Bracing Against Defeat" tier 6 trait set bonus also significantly increase the amount of healing this skill will do (or even better, have Bracing Attack also scale up with Tactical Healing Rating from Legendary Item runes) would make this skill a lot more useful as a tank.
• The "Invincible" tier 7 trait set bonus is somewhat counter-productive in increasing damage if the Champion's Morale is low while Adamant is active, when in a tanking situation they would want to keep their morale as high as they can. Changing this to instead further reduce incoming damage as the Champion's Morale drops lower while Adamant is active would make this a much more useful capstone trait for the Martial Champion specialization.
• The Melee Damage buff from the Unstable trait would be more effective it if was a Skill Damage buff, but as this trait is available to any specialization for Champions willing to invest the Class Trait Points needed to reach it, it's probably just fine as it is.
• As I also mentioned earlier in this post, the heal from Dire Need is simply ineffective compared to what is possible with the tank specializations of other classes, even under optimal conditions. However, if the skill were to be altered to instead heal a fixed percentage of the Champion's maximum Morale, and create a temporary Morale bubble equal to a certain percentage of the Power consumed by the skill, it might hold some use for all possible specializations. If needed, the Morale heal could be restricted to the Blue-line specialization only, or at least be increased significantly by it.
• Unbreakable could still use some more work in its current state, as the Mighty Roar AoE portion of the skill is rather ineffective compared to other AoEs (likely because Mighty Roar is classified as a Tactical Skill and does not benefit from Legendary Item legacies). If Mighty Roar were to also force a strong debuff on all affected mobs (ie. -20% Attack Speed/-20% Outgoing Damage), it would have some substantial utility value.

Conclusion:
Champions are beginning to look more viable compared to how they are on the live servers currently. At this point, I think the portion of the class needing the most urgent attention is improving Red-line to be capable of significantly more damage to a single-target than Yellow-line, and then improving Blue-line afterward to better equip it to handle tanking situations. Once all that is done, I think all the class will require is a bit of fine-tuning as required, in future updates.

Additionally, having the "bonus damage" on every melee skill appear to be a multiple of 165.6 is interesting. If a Physical Damage Rating equivalent were ever added in the future (as a counterpart to Tactical Damage Rating), I suspect adjusting this bonus damage value is where it would most easily fit.

[keztryl]

Thanks for listening to our feedback. As a beta tester, it is so nice to know that what you say is considered seriously. All the changes to champ this update seem to be in the right direction.

The changes to Sudden Defense are perfect, but I feel that Dire Need still needs an adjustment. The problem is that even with Dire Need giving me a 800x 34.7% of my power (with the legacy), with a power pool of ~7k I’m only getting a heal of ~20k. This is actually not enough of a bump to get me through more than 1-2 boss hits on t2c content. 20k hits are not uncommon in AoM. But the bigger problem I think is that power pools do not tend to increase at the same rate as Morale pools. Up until Moria, the 1/3 power cost of Dire Need would heal you 2/3 of your morale. By linking this skill to power, this skill is likely to become less potent as soon as the next level cap increase.

I suggest that the % of power consumed by dire need should return the same % of the champions total morale. I feel this is inline with the changes already made to sudden defense. Putting trait points into Improved Dire Need could then be changed to give 0.5-1% more morale per trait point (capping at an additional 2.5-5%). This would result in Dire Need providing a heal of 37.2%-39.7% of the champs total morale with the legacy maxed out. A tank with 160k morale getting a ~63k heal from dire need, which buys that tank a few seconds to stabilize should the healer go down (but still nowhere near the amount of time raiders, tanks and minstrels expect when compared to skills such as Warrior’s Heart or SoD). Imho, dire need should provide the champ with breathing room to build enough fervour to pop Adamant or Sudden Defense at full strength. I would much rather have a longer CD on Dire Need then for it to provide an inadequate heal. Although, champs have always had shorter CDs with shorter defensive buffs, those buffs still need to buy support classes an adequate amount of time to react.

I do not believe, this will lead to players take a “morale stacking” strategy as opposed to having a “more balanced” tank build. Morale stacking has to do with the fact that the strongest hits from most raid / instances bosses starting with the Osgiliath instance cluster cannot be block, parried or evaded. This is still the case with AoM. More balanced tank builds (or more likely b/p/e/ tank builds) will continue to be needed for tanking situations where there are a larger number of mobs. This is a context I think champ tanking will excel, given the new implementation of sweeping riposte (assuming the damage bug is fixed... which I'm sure it will be... not trying to hassle you... FriendlyHat is the best!).

(reposted from main feedback thread)

[keztryl]

Increased bracing attack healing

The increased heal of bracing attack is nice but still not enough to warrant using this skill or the associated LI legacy in any line. Imho, a good model for the morale return of this this skill would be one be based on the blue line hunter skill blood arrow. 2% of total moral every 2 second when combined with Fight On, could save a red/yellow champ from falling over in raid, but would not provide much an advantage in PvP. The existing upfront heal, could then be left in place. It is small, but no self-respecting red/yellow champ would ever use this skill unless they were literally on death's door (even so, do you self-heal or try to get in one last swipe!?!). With its 30 second CD, 5 ticks with a 10 second duration would be ideal. If the upfront heal of bracing attack is ~5% of the champs total health, this would bring the total heal from bracing attack up to about 15% (over 10 seconds).

In order to make this skill more meaningful in blue line, I would suggest changing the LI legacy. Initial points would increase the duration of the +15% incoming healing buff until it reached the full length of cool down at 30s, with upper tiers proving a very small increases to the incoming healing % (such that at tier 69 the increase would amount to ~3%).

[Decoutan]

I suggest rethinking the idea of lore-masters buffing only runekeepers/hunters instead of just buffing the other dd s to get them on par.

also, is bracing attack going of percentages now?

[Gorikon]

- Morale heal increased from 200% of Power consumed to 400% of Power consumed

Imho, the implementation of Dire Need is inherently flawed. All this remove-x%-power-multiply-value-with-factor-add-to-morale-hassle is much to complicated and doesn't really work. It does't account for that the difference between morale and power pool becomes larger and larger the higher your char lvl gets. The following problems still exists:

1) With the above change, it is still not strong enough at lvl cap, but probably too powerful at lower levels.
2) It isn't a reliable panic skill. Your morale drops (e.g. healer is stunned), you hit Dire Need...and then realize that you were low on power, meaning DN did heal almost nothing.
3) Balancing. Guardians have Warrior's Heart, 83% heal each two minutes (when fully traited + legacy) for a hundred something power. Rune Keepers have Self Motivation, 30% heal each 15 seconds (when fully traited + legacy) at no power cost. Champ Tanks have Dire Need, giving about 15% heal (when fully traited + legacy) at a cost of ~3000 power. Wait, what?

I suggest changing the skill to a flat morale heal, like Warrior's Heart, and change passive trait and legacy accordingly. Maybe:
- base heal is 25%
- trait "Improved Dire Need" gives 2% more heal per skill point (max 10% for 5 skill points)
- legacy adds some % more after cooldown is at -60. It gives up to 15.6% more power cost now on live server, how about 15.6% more morale heal?

This would give DN a ~50% morale heal with a one minute cooldown when fully traited & legacy changed. The percentage values could be changed a bit if that seems overpowered.

[ColMcStacky]

So I did some testing on Bullroarer the other day (specifically for blue-line), and I have to say, I am very happy with the results of the changes made. Sudden Defence is scaled well now in my opinion. The terrible skill delay that was affecting blue-line is gone (blue champ is sped up to the point of me actually having power problems when I tank the way I used to) which also helped increase damage, and thus threat. The changes to Sweeping Riposte are great

• Sudden Defence is scaled well now in my opinion.
• The terrible skill delay that was affecting blue-line is gone (blue champ is sped up to the point of me actually having power problems when I tank the way I used to) which also helped increase damage, and thus threat.
• Making Sweeping Riposte always proc is definitely a plus. I'm just wondering though if this 100% proc chance can be attached to the Placed Strikes trait rather than being given by default? I'm sure there are situations where people would rather keep Riposte as a single target skill rather than an AoE, and this would let you choose.
• Sweeping Riposte damage seems to be short of what is stated on the tooltip, even when taking into account enemy mitigations.
• Unstable and Fight through the Pain need to not be gated behind traiting 5/5 in the Critical Defence trait. This is just a needless point sink into a stat that is unneeded with how tanks gear.
• Bracing Attack needs an initial heal increase as well as an increase in the duration of the Incoming Healing buff it provides. A HoT would be a welcomed addition as well.
• Dire Need needs to be reworked to be a percentage heal that parallels the power cost. When at full power, it drains ~40%, and restores that percentage to morale. When at half power, it drains ~20%, and restores that percentage to morale. This will keep it in line with what the skill was initially designed to be while making it a heal on par with current morale pools.

All in all, the changes made so far are a major help to us chumps, and I'm happy with what has already happened. Thank you Friendlyhat! There is still a bit that needs to be done about the class though before I would consider it completely balanced.

[Seodric]

Red Champion DPS parse


Yellow Champion DPS parse

That Red Champion parse abnormaly high cus of crit luck first minute (mighty critical magnitude multipliers), DPS was usually around 47-48k
Yellow parses usually around 49-51k. Also got a 53k parse but didn't screenshot that. No level 105 setbonuses or BB-set used.

BR Patch 1 i got 43k Red parse, and 46k yellow parse. Yellow still doing more than red on average BR update 2.



Now on for some feedback:
- Really like the ability to be able to properly interrupt animation on skills like Wild Attack, Rend, Blade-Wall, Remorseles Strike. This might be because of the tinkering in blue, which is also nice. All in all, both red,yellow,blue champion feels way less clunky and less slow, so it's fun to play. Ferocious and Brutal strikes still have after-animation, so can't 'interrupt' them properly, but that's fine imo, have other skills which can be.

- Maybe not a known issue, but animation on Dwarf Champion have way slower Ferocious Strikes and Brutal Strikes animation. Don't know exact time, maybe 0.5sec longer, but it is really noticable, and is to the point where dwarf champion loose 4-2k DPS ALWAYS behind elf/high-elf/man animations. (Same thing with hobbit burglar having 0.5sec longer animation on Flashing blades or what it is, always being behind man burglar DPS)

- The Critical Magnitude for champion is still totally OFF THE CHARTS (This has been stated by many champs on forums since introduction of imbued LI's). This is ofc an issue for every OTHER class with BLOWN UP critical magnitudes (burglar, hunter, yellow RK for example). Red champion now has 146% crit mag from LI + 25% from red line + ~25% from critical rating. Add to that 50% magnitude for remorseless t5 buff, and you'll end up at ~200% for strike skills and ~250% for remorseless strike t5. Skills in both lines have BIGGER CRITS than devestates. Devestate crits which is supposed to be the hardest hits in the game... Only exception is remorseless which gets some other multipliers from the tiered buffs for devestate crits. All in all, it makes Champion DPS really RNG, and base hits really low. You can do same dps rotation and get totally different numbers. Also the low Base dmg from the skills really hurts when getting partialled, since there's no partialled crit mechanic.
It would made perfectly sense capping the 146% critical magnitude legacy for champ to 50% crit magnitude for example (as it were before imbued LI's) and for the legacy tiers that are going above 50%, it just buffs outgoing base dmg for hits, to compensate for crit magnitude loss of 96%. Putting total dps at the same spot as it were, just with less RNG.

- With the current buff to DPS across the board, survivability for champ must be looked at for yellow and red, to not make it too strong in Ettenmoors, or any solo content for that sake. DPS got such a raise, for example Renewing Strikes in red can be totally removed imho. Maybe remove the Blade of Courage Proc heal from yellow aswell. For compensation, you can buff Bracing Attack abit further, not by too much though, not for red or yellow atleast. For example Red champion is starting to feel like the ''Berserker'' line again, but then it should have quite low survivability to not make it too strong.

- Buffing Dire Need heal in blue further would make sense, consuming that much power should really return a significant amount of morale back to the champion. Problem is ofc that Dire need heal might be too OP at lower levels. And power pools haven't increased since level 75.....

- Sudden Defence bubble is nice now, but there's one catch: Un-imbued Champion LI have -15seconds duration on Sudden Defence Bubble. So blue champ can get as low as 10sec cd on the bubble, which is ridicilous. Bubble should also give -5% incoming dmg rather than 10% melee dmg (or maybe -incoming dmg is too strong with Adamant).

- +5 seconds on Adamant duration is also giving 5+ seconds on Horn of champion debuff duration. Isn't really strong, but it's not stated in the legacy that it's supposed to do that. Also Horn of Champions should maybe get an increased threat multiplier, but not being a forcetaunt, if that's possible.

- Obviously Red champion should be able to outperform yellow in ST parses, only way to do this would be to exclusively give + strikes dmg to red trait-tree itself, when you're actually traiting red.

[Giliodor]

That Red Champion parse abnormaly high cus of crit luck first minute (mighty critical magnitude multipliers), DPS was usually around 47-48k

I think this is what a lot of it boils down to. The crit luck makes it very frustrating to play a champion at times, and the partial BPE's just add to that. I really wish something was done about this. I had parses fluctuate between 51k and 43k, because sometimes, you just get no crits and an excessive amount of partials during your cool downs. When that happens, so much DPS is lost, it just becomes annoying.

You could also argue that the crits are "fun", because you do crazy DPS when they do happen, but I don't think that argument holds much merit. Most people I've asked would much prefer the consistency of lower critical magnitude, and higher base damage.

- The Critical Magnitude for champion is still totally OFF THE CHARTS (This has been stated by many champs on forums since introduction of imbued LI's). This is ofc an issue for every OTHER class with BLOWN UP critical magnitudes (burglar, hunter, yellow RK for example). Red champion now has 146% crit mag from LI + 25% from red line + ~25% from critical rating. Add to that 50% magnitude for remorseless t5 buff, and you'll end up at ~200% for strike skills and ~250% for remorseless strike t5. Skills in both lines have BIGGER CRITS than devestates. Devestate crits which is supposed to be the hardest hits in the game... Only exception is remorseless which gets some other multipliers from the tiered buffs for devestate crits. All in all, it makes Champion DPS really RNG, and base hits really low. You can do same dps rotation and get totally different numbers. Also the low Base dmg from the skills really hurts when getting partialled, since there's no partialled crit mechanic.
It would made perfectly sense capping the 146% critical magnitude legacy for champ to 50% crit magnitude for example (as it were before imbued LI's) and for the legacy tiers that are going above 50%, it just buffs outgoing base dmg for hits, to compensate for crit magnitude loss of 96%. Putting total dps at the same spot as it were, just with less RNG.

This has to happen. Pretty please.

- With the current buff to DPS across the board, survivability for champ must be looked at for yellow and red, to not make it too strong in Ettenmoors, or any solo content for that sake. DPS got such a raise, for example Renewing Strikes in red can be totally removed imho. Maybe remove the Blade of Courage Proc heal from yellow aswell. For compensation, you can buff Bracing Attack abit further, not by too much though, not for red or yellow atleast. For example Red champion is starting to feel like the ''Berserker'' line again, but then it should have quite low survivability to not make it too strong.

Either that and other melee classes need to have their defensives reduced, or there's no reason to reduce champion survivability. Burglars have an insane toolkit for survival, as do guardians and beornings. As a matter of fact, I would suggest that champions need another defensive skill to replace Fight On. One that is actually useful in situations with big bursts of damage.

- Obviously Red champion should be able to outperform yellow in ST parses, only way to do this would be to exclusively give + strikes dmg to red trait-tree itself, when you're actually traiting red.

Already said this as well when I posted some results earlier, but I'm just going to repeat it because this needs to be abundantly clear.

[Int]

This thread gives me hope. I don't want to derail the discussion, but let me add a possible compromise for the dire need issue that has been brought up. I think the suggestions that have been made are great ideas. However, if developers want to control the amount of the heal more than making it a percent heal, and if others object because they want to avoid morale essence stacking, then a compromise would be to control the amount of power we can get at each level with a rune of power for our LI. Funny think is the last alliance rune of power has no power on it, whereas other tiers actually added power. Anyway, if champs had a relic or legacy that added a significant amount of power (such that it was a must-have item for blue line), then developers could basically control how much power champs could get at every level with precision. It would also make it so stacking morale essences wouldn't affect the heal at all.

[Arveduie]

I appreciate the work done thus far on champion. It shows a real desire to make champion a more functional class. That being said a few holistic issues stemming from outdated skills are preventing the changes from achieving the desired goal.


Lets take a look at one of the fundamental issues keeping 2 of the 3 trait trees feeling underwhelming and redundant. Namely, champion has a wide array of skills and traits devoted to survival but cumulatively, these tools fail to provide the champion comparable durability to other classes. So why do they fall short?


Lets look at core skills first:

-Bracing attack: even after the BR 2 updates, provides roughly 5% of a dps champion's max morale on a 30s cd with maxed legacy. This is 8% of the per minute effectiveness of a rk's self-motivation, 6% of Beorning's composure, 8% of hunter's blood arrow, and so on.


-Fight On: Restores 3% of max morale every 2s for 20s, 3m cooldown. Legacy is largely redundant as it provides crit rating which should be capped in 2 of 3 specs. Provides roughly enough healing to offset the incoming damage of one signature in Mordor. Is woefully under-powered compared to other defensive skills on similar cooldowns.


Now lets looks at the traits that have likely led to the core defenses being so outdated:

-Berserker Renewing Strikes: Provides 3% of morale with 15% proc rate on strike hits. Its a bit arcane, but the practical impact is that it provides on average roughly 9 tics per minute or 27% of max morale. Its nice, but doesn't really fit the Berserker theme and suffers from the same problem all random procs do: its unreliable and does nothing to offset spike damage from instance bosses or against strong solo opponents (the primary uses of the Berserker line).

-Berserker Killing Spree: At max ranks, 10% of champion morale on killing an enemy. Also nice, but same problem as the above; doesn't fit the Berserker theme and is actually too good for Deadly Storm. Berserker is again primarily used for group instance bosses, strong solo mobs (ala Hidden Threats in Mordor) or solo pvmp fights. In all of these situations, you get the heal once the Berserker combat sequence is done which is of little to no value.

-Martial Exalted Combatant: This is one of the more functional champ heals, but even it has problems. The 30% threshold and 25% restore are quite low for a 1m30s cd and it won't save the champion from hits that would reduce them from above 30% to 0.

-Martial Dire Need: Base skill consumes 30% of current power, modifies that number by 400%, and then restores that to morale: end result, it restores roughly 7200 morale baseline. With fully maxed improved Dire Need and the imbued legacy, Dire Need will heal roughly 21500 morale on a 1m cd for 2700 power. Its a decent heal, but its prohibitively expensive in trait points, li support, and power cost and still compares poorly to other tank self heals (the new catch a breath for guards will be ~30% of max morale on a 43s cd).

-Blade of Courage: At max ranks, 20% chance on Aoe Skill use to heal 5% of max morale. Practical impact, its applies 4-5 times a minute. 22.5% of max morale per minute but also prone to being unreliable as per Renewing Strikes and also no benefit from procs while at full health.


So, as can be seen, champions have a plethora of survival tools, but all of them suffer from either weak effects, being unreliable, or a prohibitive cost. I suggest removing some of the individual skills and effects so that the remaining abilities can be more powerful and reliable.


Suggestions to streamline champion survival suite:


-Bracing Attack: Change base skill to heal 15% of max morale on a 30s cd. Legacy increases morale healed by 10% at rank 25 and then increases bracing attack damage by .8% per rank afterwards. Net effect: Bracing attack heals 50% of max morale per minute. Incorporates most of the cumulative healing you would receive from Fight On and the Line specific traits (Renewing strikes etc) while giving the champion considerably more control over when they receive that healing.


-Fight On: Change base Skill to add 25% source based mitigation for 20s on a 3m cooldown. Legacy adds up to 15% mitigation at rank 45 and then incoming healing rating for the duration from that point. Skill surpasses current fight on after 25-50k damage is taken (depending on dps or tank gear) happens relatively early in the duration for Mordor content. Considerably more useful as dps for staying on bosses during aoe heavy phases and synergizes well with Adamant for martial line.


-Renewing Strikes: Remove altogether. Replace with a 5% strikes skill damage per usage of a strikes skill. Stacks 5 times with a 5s duration. Effective gains are removing some of the luck based nature of champion survival and building in a considerable boost to single target damage that is only accessible to Berserkers (thus helping Redline perform better than yellow in single opponent parses).


-Killing Spree: Move to Deadly Storm in the place currently occupied by Blade of Courage. Trim potency down to 1, 2.5, and 5 percent per rank. Add a trait to Berserker increasing the base damage of Remorseless and Devastating Strike by 5% per rank up to 15%. This removes a trait of limited use to single target champions but of considerable use to a line design to engage hordes, while once again adding in more single target damage only accessible to Berserkers.


-Blade of Courage: Removed in favor of Killing Spree.


-Exalted Combatant: Leave as is with the exception of allowing it to function as a "last stand" and restore the champion back to 25% even after hits that would defeat the character.


Dire Need: I left Dire Need for last as it is my belief that this is the skill that needs the most significant thematic rework. With the above skills being reworked and still possessing Adamant, Sudden Defense and ideally an upgraded version of Unbreakable (See below), champion would no longer have any need of a power exchange for morale. I believe it should be reworked into a cooldown reset for Fight On, Bracing Attack, Sudden Defense, and Adamant since champion survival skills still would not be as strong individually as Juggernaut, Shield of the Dunedain, etc.

Have a 4m base cooldown reduced down to 3 minutes with the legacy. Not sure what to do with the secondary part of the legacy. Maybe keep the power cost high and have the secondary effect be power cost reduction? Then replace the 5 ranks of the improved trait with a 10% chance to apply Masochism's damage reflect and threat per rank (leave the fervour pip at a 20% chance).


Odds and Ends Ideas not mentioned above:


Blue Line


-Second Wind should be removed as a trait and rolled into the base class. All 3 lines need it in any form of extended fight and its always been my belief that any skill needed for a class to function shouldn't have to be purchased back.

-Bring back Call of the Wild in place of Second Wind. Each use of Wild Attack reduces the active cooldown of Sudden Defense by 1s (removal of this trait never made any sense).

-Remove block and the +10% parry from Fight Through the Pain. 23% total bonus avoidance is thematically at odds with a class that needs to be hit for several of its core mechanics. Replace Fight Through the Pain with a +10% crit chance (should be deep enough to keep dps champs from grabbing it).

-Have Riposte activate on champion critical hits, rather than parries. This addresses the lack of a "force opening" in fights that are heavily tactical, ranged or focus on unavoidable hits.

-Replace the 5 ranks from Vigour of Champions with 2% tactical and physical mitigation per rank while under the effects of a morale shield.

-Substantially increase the damage of the Mighty Roar component of Unbreakable. Consider reworking the function of the skill so the 10 stacks can either be cashed out for Mighty Roar or for "Unbreakable" which would grant a 2% of max morale shield per stack of the buff. Would add a nice choice between offense and defense while increasing functionality of the skill. Remove the tactical mitigation and max morale components, as both are of questionable use.


Yellow line


-Keep the Bullroarer upgrades to Blade Wall so it does roughly as much damage as live with the trait. However, replace the Barbed Wall trait with "Winds of the Storm", a 100% damage increase for Bladestorm spread over 5 ranks. In both builds on BR, Blade Wall is accounting for too large a share of overall damage in both single and multi target engagements. Meanwhile, Bladestorm has been badly outdated ever since the Helm's Deep changes.


Red line


-Berserker needs a mitigation bypass to make it more desirable for single target fights than simply using strikes skills as a Deadly Blade champion. I suggest altering Devastation (the 6th trait set bonus for Devastating Strike) to apply a buff to the champion that allows all skills for the next 4s to bypass 30% of a targets mitigation rather than just applying to Devastating Strike.

-Emboldened Blades could use a 5% base damage increase for Remorseless per tier rather than the 10% critical magnitude. The crit magnitude becomes increasingly less valuable each time we increase tiers on the champion critical damage magnitude legacy. Unless there are future plans to cap that legacy at a much lower tier and increase skill base damage further? then ignore this suggestion

-Controlled Burn needs an update. Either a 25% of Strike skills damage and a scaled version of the ICPR boost. Or a more fun and novel Berserker themed update: Skill reduces the CD of Merciful Strike to 3s for 10s and increases attack speed by 50%. At the conclusion, morale is set to 10% of max whether that is an increase or decrease.

-If finesse isn't getting a rework to deal with partials, would be really nice to see Champion's Duel reimagined. Skill would become a toggle with a 30s cd. Champion focuses on his/her target with single-minded intent. Champ loses the ability to block, parry, or evade but all attacks made against the target of Duel are unavoidable. Champion also gains +5% critical chance against the target.

-And a last thought as "I would love to see this done" especially if the above were implemented. Roll the function from the Hamstrung trait into the base Hamstring skill. Replace the trait with 5 ranks of blade wall, each increasing the damage of blade wall by 20% but reducing its max targets by 1. At max ranks, Blade Wall would become Blade Strike, a single target skill benefiting from strikes line bonuses


The suggestions to streamline champion survival should fix most of the critical issues with champion, namely improving the resilience to stay in melee during group content and the proposed replacement traits would boost champion ST dps in Berserker to more palatable levels. Then my hope the Odds and Ends ideas is that they will serve as a catalyst for discussion and creative improvements to under-utilized skills and traits in future updates.

[Vanyaerunanethiel]

Tis not all about DPS potential,Certain individuals have to comprehend the term of over-power. What class is overpowered? Versaility ~ Power. The hunter and Burglar are incredibly overrated to the point of obsession and sickness.

The champion has the greatest Damage potential, No class can out-class the Yellow line champion {The Deadly Storm} AOE goddess. When I state Damage potential the maximum amount of damage dished out to dozens of foes or the foes in the frontal range of the champion, not purely related to sustained DPS for the ST or the ability to demolish single target from stealth as burglar or hunter in a the blink of an eye before opposing forces what no clue what even happened.

The Further damage increase for champions were not necessary. I m telling you openly , You are doing the fatal mistake in regards of the champion class. Do not increase the damage of the skills. As for my personal revamp I would probably write a mini novel of my wishes and grand desires or restore the majority of the system/Combat from 2007-09 or perhaps even particular stances Fervour/Ardour/Glory. But let us observe what we have and what can be done, not dig into past which cannot be restored.

The champion sincerely do not need further boosting. Tested ,recorded ,improvised countless of times, I have hundreds of videos. {The Quenta Calaquende Thread} The blue line was a reasonable boost. Champions are total annihilators, if you further enhance it's Raw Damage and Damage over time {The Berseker Line} Or Direct damage potential coped with greatest Area of Effect Potency and enhanced Martial champion line ,self heals the class surpass others and inevitably becomes another " FOTM",tis an never ending cycle indeed. Impossible to please entire MMO-playerbase, Let us keep in civil an do not retaliate back, Retaliate against the vast inexhaustible limitless number of Drakes,Regmyl,Greater Caerog or Giant Kind.

I know the champion's class inside and out in the deepest level possible,Please reconsider your final decisions before the final release.

Kind Regards,

Vanyalanthirel Vanimelda High Queen of the Noldor

[Jane66]

Just checking - are you doing your yellow line parses on the single dummy, or on the cluster of dummies? Looks like you are just comparing yellow line to red line for straight single target right now?

[gaara908776]

Tis not all about DPS potential,Certain individuals have to comprehend the term of over-power. What class is overpowered? Versaility ~ Power. The hunter and Burglar are incredibly overrated to the point of obsession and sickness.

The champion has the greatest Damage potential, No class can out-class the Yellow line champion {The Deadly Storm} AOE goddess. When I state Damage potential the maximum amount of damage dished out to dozens of foes or the foes in the frontal range of the champion, not purely related to sustained DPS for the ST or the ability to demolish single target from stealth as burglar or hunter in a the blink of an eye before opposing forces what no clue what even happened.

The Further damage increase for champions were not necessary. I m telling you openly , You are doing the fatal mistake in regards of the champion class. Do not increase the damage of the skills. As for my personal revamp I would probably write a mini novel of my wishes and grand desires or restore the majority of the system/Combat from 2007-09 or perhaps even particular stances Fervour/Ardour/Glory. But let us observe what we have and what can be done, not dig into past which cannot be restored.

The champion sincerely do not need further boosting. Tested ,recorded ,improvised countless of times, I have hundreds of videos. {The Quenta Calaquende Thread} The blue line was a reasonable boost. Champions are total annihilators, if you further enhance it's Raw Damage and Damage over time {The Berseker Line} Or Direct damage potential coped with greatest Area of Effect Potency and enhanced Martial champion line ,self heals the class surpass others and inevitably becomes another " FOTM",tis an never ending cycle indeed. Impossible to please entire MMO-playerbase, Let us keep in civil an do not retaliate back, Retaliate against the vast inexhaustible limitless number of Drakes,Regmyl,Greater Caerog or Giant Kind.

I know the champion's class inside and out in the deepest level possible,Please reconsider your final decisions before the final release.

Kind Regards,

Vanyalanthirel Vanimelda High Queen of the Noldor

With all due respect Vanya, I saw that you only recently completed Abyss T2(not even challenge) fully on your hunter after 6 months of the expansion. Are you sure you're really equipped to be commenting on what Single target dps should be for a champion? AOE is irrelevant in the current raid. In fact, almost every single raid boss created in lotro is single target focused. Yes, I understand that champs are a class that excels above all others in multi-target situations. However, in order for Champions to be viable in a raid setting they must ALSO be competitive in a single target setting. This is why there are two separate trait lines. One for Single Target, one for AOE. It adds versatility to the class, and makes it so that it is desirable in multiple types of scenarios. Other classes are viable for other reason. For example, a Burglar is desirable because they have BOTH high single target damage, and great group debuffs. The dev's are doing a good thing by increasing the viability of Berserker(Red Line) champions. In fact, I'd argue that they could increase dps even higher than it's current state on Build 3 and it still wouldn't be considered overpowered compared to say a hunter or red burglar.

[dselden]

I know the champion's class inside and out in the deepest level possible,Please reconsider your final decisions before the final release.

Kind Regards,

Vanyalanthirel Vanimelda High Queen of the Noldor

Lol.

[Vanyaerunanethiel]

With all due respect Vanya, I saw that you only recently completed Abyss T2(not even challenge) fully on your hunter after 6 months of the expansion. Are you sure you're really equipped to be commenting on what Single target dps should be for a champion? AOE is irrelevant in the current raid. In fact, almost every single raid boss created in lotro is single target focused. Yes, I understand that champs are a class that excels above all others in multi-target situations. However, in order for Champions to be viable in a raid setting they must ALSO be competitive in a single target setting. This is why there are two separate trait lines. One for Single Target, one for AOE. It adds versatility to the class, and makes it so that it is desirable in multiple types of scenarios. Other classes are viable for other reason. For example, a Burglar is desirable because they have BOTH high single target damage, and great group debuffs. The dev's are doing a good thing by increasing the viability of Berserker(Red Line) champions. In fact, I'd argue that they could increase dps even higher than it's current state on Build 3 and it still wouldn't be considered overpowered compared to say a hunter or red burglar.

I'll consider your post "semi-honest". My execution of the Abyss Tier II is completely peripheral to the current subject and regarding the hunter class in the essence. I am not answering the meaningless questions nor I believe your reply was utterly true ,but I'll reply in a polite manner. Certainly I have the right and absolute freedom of commenting,everyone has even he/she have not participated in the open BETA. The suggestions&thoughts are most welcome. I know the class perfectly. I have over two hundred videos specifically related to the Champion class, The Blade-Master. Arato and Mastery in The Bererker Line/The Deadly Strom and I have walked the Path of the Martial Champion. The Area of Effect is never irrelevant and true strength of the champion and his/her primary role is the Area of Effect potency to dish out the maximum damage possible to greatest amount of foes. To dispatch the armies of Morgorth and sunder the army which would put other classes to shame. You are missing the core comprehensive point of my previous reply and adding the irrational statements which are utterly pointless. The Champion already is versatile class indeed, Me and Champion are the one and I have been playing the class since the Elder days of Arda. The Champion does not need to be viable in raid setting for purely Single target purposes, The players have been finishing raids since the introduction of the First Raid without champion's incredible potency of burning through the Single Target.The dangers of increasing the skill damage. Re-Read thoroughly. Your vital mistake of understanding the true strength of the champion's ,adding unnecessary subjects or a "false" belief of champions equality of Hunter or a Rune-Keeper. The Champion is already incomprehensibly overpowered class in the right class, its the mentality of players seeking now Single Target DPS as well, Let us give everyone potency of Hunter? The class does not need further Damage uplift. You question me ,Spirit of Fire, my dear Randir, you have lot to learn ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXW_...FPUZFDZLE_8Ihj 122 Videos{Fragment} The answers to all the questions. The quintessential video compilation.

For Vanyalanthiriel was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in her.

[Schaijian]

... I know the class perfectly. I have over two hundred videos specifically related to the Champion class, The Blade-Master. Arato and Mastery in The Bererker Line/The Deadly Strom and I have walked the Path of the Martial Champion. The Area of Effect is never irrelevant and true strength of the champion and his/her primary role is the Area of Effect potency to dish out the maximum damage possible to greatest amount of foes. To dispatch the armies of Morgorth and sunder the army which would put other classes to shame. You are missing the core comprehensive point of my previous reply and adding the irrational statements which are utterly pointless. The Champion already is versatile class indeed, Me and Champion are the one and I have been playing the class since the Elder days of Arda. The Champion does not need to be viable in raid setting for purely Single target purposes, The players have been finishing raids since the introduction of the First Raid without champion's incredible potency of burning through the Single Target.The dangers of increasing the skill damage. Re-Read thoroughly. Your vital mistake of understanding the true strength of the champion's ,adding unnecessary subjects or a "false" belief of champions equality of Hunter or a Rune-Keeper. The Champion is already incomprehensibly overpowered class in the right class, its the mentality of players seeking now Single Target DPS as well, Let us give everyone potency of Hunter? The class does not need further Damage uplift. You question me ,Spirit of Fire, my dear Randir, you have lot to learn ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXW_...FPUZFDZLE_8Ihj 122 Videos{Fragment} The answers to all the questions. The quintessential video compilation.

...

Short answer to your self-adulation about your massive knowledge about the champion class: did I miss anything or are all your experiences with champions just up to the mid-level range (65-70 or somethinglike that). If not, please let me see one of your precious videos playing a endlevel champion. By the way playing a champion without Battle Frenzy must be a real pain...

But now without further distraction by your opinion I will come to the real point of my post.
As can be seen in the beta class forums it seems that while playing purely solo the DPS of most DPS classes is not that far awy from each other. Latest I have seen (Beta 3) were posts of about 55k for hunters, 50k for champions, 40k for runekeepers, burglars and wardens I am not totally aware of, but they seem to be in the same range as hunters I think.
So balancing seems to be on a rather good way...until group buffs get into the game:

Joedangod made a great comparison of almost all mitigation and armour debuffs from all classes here:
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...fing-Disparity

Taking the above mentioned DPS values as a starting point we see that a hunter is doing about 10% more damage than a champion and about 35% more than a runekeeper who is doing about 80% of a champions damage. Not perfect, of course, but much closer than in the past.
But as can be seen in Joedangods post, there is a huge disparity between physical mitigation debuffs and and especially fire mitigation debuffs. Taking all these debuffs into account we come to a totally different balancing between classes:
A hunter is now doing about 75-80% more damage than a champion, a runekeeper about 30% more- if we take into account the physical mitigation debuff of the beorninger which in almost all raids will not be present. Without the beorningers debuff it is even more of a mess: hunters are doing 130% more damage than a champion, runekeepers (which were at 80% of champions DPS solo) now do 70% more damage than champions. Detailed calculations can be seen here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...0Mw/edit#gid=0
(Note that I did not take armour debuffs into account, because those benefit all types of damage in the same way. I also assumed the DPS Dummy have the unbuffed mitigation of heavy armour of 60%.)
Further calculations showed a champion would need about 120k DPS with the current mitigation debuffs if he should have the same DPS as a hunter or at least 85k DPS to compete with a runekeeper with typical raid debuffs (read: no beorninger...it would be 90k and 65k DPS respectively with beorninger debuff).
In my opinion there are only two solutions for this dilemma. Of course pushing champions (same for burglars and to some extent wardens) DPS would lead to a great and unwanted imbalance in soloplay.
One way would be to change the mitigation debuffs, either decrease the potency of the fire mitigation debuff or increase the physical mitigation debuffs. Perhaps the loremaster could get this tied into one of his skills.
The other (much more simple) way would be to let melee classes use fire oils or weapon titles that change the damage type to fire. By doing this, almost nothing changes in soloplay, but the DPS gap in groups and raids would be much smaller.

[Vanyaerunanethiel]

Short answer to your self-adulation about your massive knowledge about the champion class: did I miss anything or are all your experiences with champions just up to the mid-level range (65-70 or somethinglike that). If not, please let me see one of your precious videos playing a endlevel champion. By the way playing a champion without Battle Frenzy must be a real pain...

But now without further distraction by your opinion I will come to the real point of my post.
As can be seen in the beta class forums it seems that while playing purely solo the DPS of most DPS classes is not that far awy from each other. Latest I have seen (Beta 3) were posts of about 55k for hunters, 50k for champions, 40k for runekeepers, burglars and wardens I am not totally aware of, but they seem to be in the same range as hunters I think.
So balancing seems to be on a rather good way...until group buffs get into the game:

Joedangod made a great comparison of almost all mitigation and armour debuffs from all classes here:
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...fing-Disparity

Taking the above mentioned DPS values as a starting point we see that a hunter is doing about 10% more damage than a champion and about 35% more than a runekeeper who is doing about 80% of a champions damage. Not perfect, of course, but much closer than in the past.
But as can be seen in Joedangods post, there is a huge disparity between physical mitigation debuffs and and especially fire mitigation debuffs. Taking all these debuffs into account we come to a totally different balancing between classes:
A hunter is now doing about 75-80% more damage than a champion, a runekeeper about 30% more- if we take into account the physical mitigation debuff of the beorninger which in almost all raids will not be present. Without the beorningers debuff it is even more of a mess: hunters are doing 130% more damage than a champion, runekeepers (which were at 80% of champions DPS solo) now do 70% more damage than champions. Detailed calculations can be seen here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...0Mw/edit#gid=0
(Note that I did not take armour debuffs into account, because those benefit all types of damage in the same way. I also assumed the DPS Dummy have the unbuffed mitigation of heavy armour of 60%.)
Further calculations showed a champion would need about 120k DPS with the current mitigation debuffs if he should have the same DPS as a hunter or at least 85k DPS to compete with a runekeeper with typical raid debuffs (read: no beorninger...it would be 90k and 65k DPS respectively with beorninger debuff).
In my opinion there are only two solutions for this dilemma. Of course pushing champions (same for burglars and to some extent wardens) DPS would lead to a great and unwanted imbalance in soloplay.
One way would be to change the mitigation debuffs, either decrease the potency of the fire mitigation debuff or increase the physical mitigation debuffs. Perhaps the loremaster could get this tied into one of his skills.
The other (much more simple) way would be to let melee classes use fire oils or weapon titles that change the damage type to fire. By doing this, almost nothing changes in soloplay, but the DPS gap in groups and raids would be much smaller.

You as well missed the core points. Sorrowful it is, but expected. The Calculations are not needed. I'll shorten it up for thee again. The Champion has the Greatest Damage Potency of all classes and ever shall be so. The further amp is inessential. I am not repeating the same old song.
The conversation with thee is fruitless indeed. You canst outwit me. There are none. She is the High Queen of the Noldor. I am the Curufinwe Feanaro ~ the Spirt of Fire If I use my full power I shall ignite an overwhelming inferno and inevitably end with an infraction, one of the reasons I steer clear from "discussions" The Ill treatment is a fate of a Super-genius. Every single question has already been answered in my previous posts.I can predict the outcome. Tis calamitous. I m going to change it , at once. Do not take me for a fool. Your precise intentions are known to me. I except only few shall ever grasp the profoundness and accept the honesty of my words. You are not of them ,Adan. The Feanor, though on the hand have had one crippling weakness. He could not stop. I know and I shall embrace the path of wisdom and depart away. I will stop. The Energy dispersal was substantial , but I know as well deep down there shall always be at least one who shall appreciate my work and comprehend specific in-depth content, even one is considered a triumph and I always fought alone and still emerged as a victor and I always win even if I stand firm alone in the face of evil against the Everlasting darkness and seemingly inexhaustible forces of the Great enemy.

[Araphorn]

You as well missed the core points. Sorrowful it is, but expected. The Calculations are not needed. I'll shorten it up for thee again. The Champion has the Greatest Damage Potency of all classes and ever shall be so. The further amp is inessential. I am not repeating the same old song.
The conversation with thee is fruitless indeed. You canst outwit me. There are none. She is the High Queen of the Noldor. I am the Curufinwe Feanaro ~ the Spirt of Fire If I use my full power I shall ignite an overwhelming inferno and inevitably end with an infraction, one of the reasons I steer clear from "discussions" The Ill treatment is a fate of a Super-genius. Every single question has already been answered in my previous posts.I can predict the outcome. Tis calamitous. I m going to change it , at once. Do not take me for a fool. Your precise intentions are known to me. I except only few shall ever grasp the profoundness and accept the honesty of my words. You are not of them ,Adan. The Feanor, though on the hand have had one crippling weakness. He could not stop. I know and I shall embrace the path of wisdom and depart away. I will stop. The Energy dispersal was substantial , but I know as well deep down there shall always be at least one who shall appreciate my work and comprehend specific in-depth content, even one is considered a triumph and I always fought alone and still emerged as a victor and I always win even if I stand firm alone in the face of evil against the Everlasting darkness and seemingly inexhaustible forces of the Great enemy.

Why is this creepy female elf role play nonsense spam being allowed on a constructive feedback thread?

@Cordovan, can you please look into this?

P.S. Schaijian has raised many valid points. Even if all DPS classes end up being equal on the dummies, there will still never be balance in a true raid environment due to FIRE mitigation debuffs disparity. Adding a Fire weapon scroll or allowing oils for Melees seems to be a reasonable way to approach this problem, unless the devs want to revamp debuffs entirely, which will consume lots of time.