A big Thank You to Vastin

[Macdui]

Hidden if they choose. There are no secrets. If you want to keep anything private maybe get an old Mumble server on your PC. Have you all not read all the recent privacy policy updates. All under the guise of bettering customer experience.

They don't seem to think it's a bit creepy and stalkerish and how it might affect individuals who might have issues with it.

Mac

[siipperi]

Hi

I am a casual player, I play the game due to being a Tolkien fan for 6 decades. We all have different things that enjoy us, entertain us. I truly dislike hack and slash, slayerdeeds are not made for me.

It does not matter to me if I can kill the Balrog with a naked blue Hunter with a fragile bow. My main on Ark, after playing for years just made it to Helms deep.
The journey is what drives me, the lore, the feeling in discovering new places from the books I know.

My Blue Hunter is 1 month old, to make it easy. 2 days of that is boring hack and slash. Instead of using One arrow I now must use 2-4 according to You, making those 2 days become 4-8 days for a new toon.
My game style is now more boring due to the changes. Let me ask you this. If they made all RAIDS in this game take 2-4 times longer, would you run them just as much??

I want an easy class, Blue Hunter with the portals, the movement, the barrage damage fitted me perfectly, No need to think about rotation just blast stuff away, blast the BORING part away.
End game does not interest me, the grind involved seems more boring than anything else, and I do not play the game to be bored. I have no need of hard stuff to prove something. I am good enough for the way I play, that is all I need. The game did not get harder with the changes but it got more boring from my point of view. *shrugs*

You do realize you spend just fraction of your time in combat. There's times when I quest whole day and yet I have just <90 minutes of combat log... Several hours of questing and just fraction of it in combat...

I would run raids as much as I do now. Completion time does not matter.

If you dislike combat so much you can't be in combat few seconds longer. Maybe it's not right genre for you?

[Tirnvir]

I'm a casual player too. Founder. This was my first MMO. I only ever tried it out during closed beta because it was LOTR. I was blown away and couldn't wait to sign up.

A very important part of the journey for me was overcoming obstacles. Exploring. Learning my way around. Encountering and overcoming foes of Middle-earth.

I too relished discovering places from the books. Many of these were dangerous places.

When these dangerous places were too easy, they no longer felt right. I wasn't exploring Middle-earth any more.

I respect that, as every person has a different approach to things. I for one wanted my toon to be a Legolas wannabe! A Hero! Equipped with a stunning bow! On the move as when he attacked the Mumakil.
He fires an arrow and the foe is no more! Imagine Legolas spending 4 arrows/ foe….'lol'

I do apologize to all Gimli wannabes out there but that type of fighting is not for me.. .

Two posts in one day, time to be a bit more restrained and keep a low profile, English is a bit hard at my age when you have it as third language!


Best wishes to you and I do hope the game will entertain you for a long time to come.

[Herwegur]

GM toolkit includes invisibility. Not like it matters though, it's an MMO; people can pretty much always see what you're doing.

*Hugo Weaving voice* Welcome to Rivendell...Mr. Anderson.

[Tirnvir]

You do realize you spend just fraction of your time in combat. There's times when I quest whole day and yet I have just <90 minutes of combat log... Several hours of questing and just fraction of it in combat...

I would run raids as much as I do now. Completion time does not matter.

Yes, I do realize that, but still that is the part I dislike most in the game, cant change that. If I could I would level from friendly questing only, but I do run the epics as it makes me feel more involved in the game. I still have to figure out how to complete the epics in Helms deep. That will bore the he** out of me. Running around just firing arrows.

You have my admiration and respect for that approach, I would most likely lower my time in RAIDS if they made them slower and more tedious.

Wrong Genre? Hardly, I am a *hardcore* Tolkien fan, the worst kind...

PS To the OP of this thread. I do agree, having a developer to discuss things with is always better that nhe opposite, If you like the changes or not should be discussed elsewhere….

[Macdui]

*Hugo Weaving voice* Welcome to Rivendell...Mr. Anderson.

You'd hope it was in Archet looking for male man burglars with the default character screen appearance and the default chest, pants, boots and dagger to show they have macroed through the intro.
Then they can mess with them all they like.


Mac

[VadulTharys]

How does one show skill by 2 shotting a mob whilst naked? They were naked, they pressed two buttons, mob died. There's no element of skill involved. This isn't about taunting anyone, it's simply proving that the concept of Hunters having problems is not something that is true and thus is not something that should be solved by Hunter buffs.

The worst bit is; We still have no evidence whatsoever that Hunters really are having a problem with anything.

Except the honestly HUNDREDS of people who are low level complaining about it. Again just because you and I are having no problems does not mean others are not.

Remember we know to grind traits and deeds to boost our abilities, we know how best to use our skills to achieve our goals. Ok so last week on a pure blue (not one red skill traited) I could pretty much 3 shot kill any on level landscape mob, not elites they took more time and many more shots. Ok I kept it that way for the slight extra challenge. Then after the update doing the exact same build facing the exact same mobs I was not only not killing them in 3 shots, I was getting killed. I adjust my build and survived, but it showed me there was a significant problem. I came to the forums to see if anyone else was having issues, and all I have seen so far is one poster after an other tell those who are saying they are having problems they are stupid, worthless, should play another game, ect. You know this is true just read this thread. You are one of the few who listened and took the time to go check it out, thank you for that.

But the vast majority of those slamming those who are stating they are having problems are the exact same people who has spent all the time since 19 complaining and whining VERY loudly about how unfair it was to red line. So now they are buffed they got what they wanted a destroyed blue line, they are gloating and being vile.

I am tired of it, I am tired of the low levels in my kin who are being told they are idiots and to shut up and go play another game if they don't like the changes. Kicked 3 people yesterday for doing just that. But gained nearly 20 just yesterday who had left other kins because they were being told by the max level characters to shut up and go to another game.

Really that is the solution for a complaint shut up and go play something else...guess what many are and ESO is real quick to address a complaint from players and they know it.

When new player after new player is complaining that everyone else is killing faster than they are and they are dying so often making it to lvl 20 without dying is a major accomplishment then there is a problem. As was shown by the earlier posts about the differences of damage at lvl 6 the premier dps class is near the bottom for dps...does that not tell you there is a significant problem right there???? Can those bashing those who are stating there is a problem not stop long enough to understand the class descriptions are false with that evidence???

Again if the premier DPS class does not have the top numbers in dps then WOW it is not the premier DPS class is it? Oh and again hunters, using bows at lvl 6 one shot killing is not something that should be likely, but should on occasion happen. Use logic, a bow is the most dangerous weapon in these types of combat historically and guess what historically bows were 1 shot kills. Not swords nothing else was as effective at killing as bows, so a game that tries to stick to Tolkien's view did a decent job of it. Tolkien was a fanatic when it came to historic realism for combat, I think having seen war up close he understood that and it shows in his writing, again Legolas was 1 shot killing EVERYTHING except the Troll in Moria (3 arrows) or the Mamukil (2 arrows). That is the vision new hunters have in their head, so they expect to be the uber killing machines. Not a third rate killing machine behind tank classes.


I saw one post where the guy pointed out how unfair it was that champs/guards/cappys got to wear heavy armor how it gave them an unfair advantage, how they had twice the health his poor RK did. See how you are all doing the same thing...ohhhh its not fair that a hunter can 1 shot stuff so stop whining....when the point of hunter IS to one shot stuff if you read the books or watch the movies. Now doing that bores the #### out of me I like challenges, but can you see how the vast difference between class description and the reality of the class being mediocre damage dealer?

[OldMadeOfLions]

Have they ever just dumped a load of work because it just didn't work, not to my knowledge...

I've done it occasionally. Sometimes something just doesn't work out, no matter how much effort you put into it. The original version of the sessionplay where Boromir dies during the Breaking of the Fellowship is one that always comes to mind for me: I ended up throwing everything out and just starting over after a couple weeks of work. The version I ended up with is much better -- but it took crumpling up the first version and tossing it entirely, which never feels good but was necessary. I'm sure there are examples from other teams too, I imagine it's not just a Content thing.

MoL

[BotLike]

Anyone complaining that it takes a long time to kill a mob with a hunter maybe should create a captain.......

hahaha , i gave up on that , i only did the trait points and stopped . Honestly , the captain dmg is not too bad , it's actually quite decent after u22.2 due to LI dps boost , but the animations and skill delays are terrible and way too long.

What i didn't give up on though , was pre-update guardian. When i went to the southernmost cave in lhingris with the signature orcs ( also a daily ) it took me over 1 minute to kill each one. If i stacked them up it took slightly less because of how aoe used to work.
I still did the dailies , it was truly a depressing experience because i KNEW this was simply a broken class , not a class that was supposed to be 10+ times slower than a hunter , and it was left that way for around 2 years.........
A hunter needed around 6 seconds to kill the same mob and now after the update its gonna be faster with upshot and barrage. Guardian might not be a DPS oriented class but both guardian and hunter as basic difficulty so you'd expect something better , like it happens currently on live.

That's where the concept of class balance comes in and fixes this problem. It's going well so far.

This coupled with bug fixes , will be far more beneficial dev work for the game than a hunter complaining it takes 2 seconds to kill stuff on low to mid level instead of 1.... The fact alone that you used to kill stuff in 1 second , or even 2-3 now , is a joke on its own lolololol.
I wouldn't insist too much on it if i was them , cause eventually they might get a nerf instead , which is what any logical dev would do if they were FORCED to change something.

[Arnenna]

Knowingly or unknowingly?

Either. And it's actually quite funny when you can't see them, but then, all of a sudden, know they are there. A very very long time ago on my first alt through Dunland, I had to kill that large worm (forget it's name now). I was a bit under level and the fight took a significant amount of time, and then it bugged and the quest didn't complete after defeating the worm. I couldn't get the quest to reset either, so I raised a ticket and within a few minutes a GM came into chat. He was very nice and asked me to kill the worm again for him to see me defeat it. He spawned it, and I fought it and after it died, he appeared right beside me and I almost jumped out of my skin. I was new to the game, and it's probably a good thing that I didn't know that he was right there, because it would have made me nervous and probably lose the fight

[HaVai]

I just have one thing to say. This thread was created with the purpose of expressing our gratitude to a dev who has been communicating and explaining himself to us constantly. Now, you may not agree with these changes or you may, but the fact remains that this man has displayed nothing but respect towards us with his immediate responses and honesty. So, I would kindly request that we return the favor and show our respect by retaining this thread's original purpose. There are many other threads to discuss the changes and exchange opinions and ideas.

With that being said, to quote Sam from the movies: "Captain Vastin, you have shown your quality, sir. The very highest."

[Vastin]

*Hugo Weaving voice* Welcome to Rivendell...Mr. Anderson.

Alas, we GM's do still lack the ability to possess your avatar on the fly and run around with you like flesh-puppets.

Maybe I should talk to the engineers about that...

-Vastin

[Decrepify]

Alas, we GM's do still lack the ability to possess your avatar on the fly and run around with you like flesh-puppets.

Maybe I should talk to the engineers about that...

-Vastin

[Silmelin]

No I'm not going to listen and believe. Everything isn't relative. I could claim my level 100 warden is so broken he keeps dying in the Shire. Does that make it true? Should the game be balanced around my unsupported claim since I'm a valued LOTRO player?

If (as has happened on these forums) someone claims their level 70 hunter is getting smashed by level ~63 mobs because of the change to blue line - and then someone posts a video of a level 65 hunter easily killing those same mobs with NO traits and poor gear (even just using auto attack) ... this actually proves beyond any doubt that the original poster is (at best) mistaken as to the cause of his problems.

if someone makes a definitive and broad claim such as "It is broken" all it takes is a single video showing that it's NOT broken for them to be conclusively proven wrong.

I don't believe that anyone would go "oh I see we have had a new update. I will just randomly make up something to lie about and go complain on the forums." There's not even any logic behind you saying that your Lv100 Warden is dying in the Shire. After this update many people are saying they are having a less fun time after the blue hunter changes, and most of them seem to complain about the same specific things, so why is that such a stretch? Why is it so hard to believe that others are different than you? Some people enjoy something different. All that video proves is that the person who made it has no problems, and also that they are a bit cruel and doesn't think twice of making fun of others for not being like them.

I am a regular Bullroarer tester, and none of my alts are maxed. I play with exp-disablers. I keep participating in beta because my vantage point from lower level ranges adds valuable perspective and broadens the scope of ramifications to be considered.

What's more: I am a "casual" landscape player, and apart from an odd instance or two I don't raid and don't number-crunch.

That's wonderful! Thank you so much for putting in so much time to help test! We really need all sorts of play styles and levels to help

So please stop with these random assumptions about the "problem" of maxed toons taking over Bullroarer testing. I would much rather keep on seeing valuable input from long-time veterans testing on their Mains. And absolutely nothing stops ANYONE from jumping right in and posting their own feedback. From their own unique perspective. On an open beta forum. Which is always accessible 24/7 even when server is closed.

What? I haven't made any random assumptions though? I said MOST people, and by that I mean most people, not all. And I know this is true because I spend a lot longer on the Bullroarer forums than Bullroarer is even open, and I read all the threads, and there's a lot more people talking about their max leveled characters and it's a lot rarer to see people mentioning lower leveled characters. Also, I never said it was bad that long-time veterans tested on their mains, quite the opposite.
And it's not really true to say that nothing stops anyone from jumping in and posting their feedback. First of all they have to know enough to get Bullroarer going if they want to test, and they might need to take time off from work due to the bad testing hours we have now, and as I said in my post that you must have missed; there are plenty of people who don't know enough to give more feedback than "I'm having trouble fighting" or perhaps "all seems to work for me". We all aren't the same, and their less specific feedback outside of Bullroarer should be welcome as well, but as some people have showed: it's not that welcome. And that's why I posted. All types of people should have a place in an MMO I feel.

Bottom line: Those that care enough, seem to make some time for it in their busy schedules. If not to actually test, then at least to contribute to dialogue on the feedback threads.

I have friends who care a LOT, they just can't write posts that would help any developers. They don't know enough about all those stats and such. There isn't just two groups of people, casual and hardcore gamers. It's a range and there's tons of people spread out all across the line. And it's not even that easy. There are hardcore gamers who know nothing about stats and can't even figure out how even the basics of LI's work, but they play more than 10 hours a day and know everything there is to know about all the quests and never get lost anywhere. And there are casuals who play only a few hours a week but are real pro min-maxers who knows everything about the behind-the-scenes stuff about skills and such. It will be hard for those of the first group to test class balance and give feedback. And what if they can't even get Bullroarer? That's why it upsets me so to see people laughing at them for coming with their different type of feedback to the forums now, and that's the only reason I have posted my posts in this thread, though sadly it seems I'm not very good at English since everyone who replied have gotten something completely different from my posts than what I wrote.

The feedback discussions in Bullroarer forums have been productive and constructive, with diversity of perspectives and playstyles all welcomed. Now on general forums, threads are getting derailed by those who are too caught up in their own insecurities to realize that none of this is about them. Everyone in the world isn't you

I've been attacked quite a lot on Bullroarer, more than here actually, and so far always by those who are upset at me not liking the same things as they do.

The thing that has derailed the threads here in the general forums is these two things: Those who have been rudely telling those who have problems that they actually don't have any problems (some even stating that they should stop playing), and those who are repeatedly trying to explain that just because some people have no problems, there can still be those who do have problems and their voice should be considered as well (I belong to this group of derailers though I was just planning to post once, but no one understands my post so I have been trying again and again, and lack of English words forces me to write long posts).

"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you are right."

This is one of my most hated quotes in the world actually It's hurt so many of my friends. Those who are healthy and in charge of the care of those who are less healthy, at least where I live, say things like that to those who have certain types of health problems. I've been told my whole life that I just think I can't do this or that, when it's actually physically impossible for me to do just that. And on the internet you can't see who is on the other side, and I can't see the blue hunters who have lost their enjoyment of their gametime so I can't really tell them that positive thinking will fix the problems they are having

[Silmelin]

Alas, we GM's do still lack the ability to possess your avatar on the fly and run around with you like flesh-puppets.

Maybe I should talk to the engineers about that...

-Vastin

Just remember that if you want to "borrow" my characters you need to warn me first so I can hide my embarrassing collections!


...I still have that gift-box you get when you finish the intro, and I'm carrying around all the Gift Mathoms you get from quests... What? I need them!

[siipperi]

I don't believe that anyone would go "oh I see we have had a new update. I will just randomly make up something to lie about and go complain on the forums." There's not even any logic behind you saying that your Lv100 Warden is dying in the Shire. After this update many people are saying they are having a less fun time after the blue hunter changes, and most of them seem to complain about the same specific things, so why is that such a stretch? Why is it so hard to believe that others are different than you? Some people enjoy something different. All that video proves is that the person who made it has no problems, and also that they are a bit cruel and doesn't think twice of making fun of others for not being like them.

yeah because these people seem to think combat should last just 1-3 seconds. That should not be norm. If these people quit the game because combat takes 5 seconds, too bad... It's best for the game to combat last more than second and people who actually enjoy good game with balanced combat are majority compared to people who are into one shotting stuff and watch netflix while questing.

[Theyaretakingthehobb]

Yeah big " thank you " to Vastin for destroying hunter class .

Big " thank you " for listening to kind of people who want to destroy mona lisa because they can't draw 2 straight lines .

Big " thank you " for messing with something that worked just fine,but falling for that " let me show 'em i can make it better " .... well you can't and you didn't .

Also " thank you " to all frustrated people who got rekt in moors by hunters and cried " NERF " .

When you get hit by falling revenue ,don't ask yourself why .

[Joedangod]

All that video proves is that the person who made it has no problems

Mind guiding me through how you came to that conclusion from the video?

The guy may very well be a skilled player, I just can't get that impression from these hunter videos he has posted at all. For starters the character he's using is completely naked, there was no player input on what gear he has chosen to wear, no intelligent combination of pieces that might have been chasing a particular stat that is necessary to perform well. So we cannot deem him skilled by his choice of gear.

This brings us to the next option: Traits. He's level 15 and stuck every trait point into focus damage. It's the best thing to do but it's also the obvious thing to do since it increases the damage of the focus skills by 25% whilst the other trait available to him in that tree gives him a 5% damage increase. Can't determine he's skilled off of that.

The final chance we have to determine whether he is skilled is how good his rotation is. He presses two buttons, penshot and barrage. These are the biggest damage dealing skills he has available and they kill the on level mob outright without crits. There wasn't really enough time for him to establish any kind of rotation and he only has 5 ranged skills total so he could've just blindly mashed them and eventually hit the two that killed the mob here. All in all, can't determine that there was any skill involved in the execution either.


The video of a less than average low level Hunter having 0 difficulty with on-level mobs is exactly what it makes itself out to be. It's not some display of extraordinary prowess, just a highlight of the imbalance in low level content.

[Macdui]

I've done it occasionally. Sometimes something just doesn't work out, no matter how much effort you put into it. The original version of the sessionplay where Boromir dies during the Breaking of the Fellowship is one that always comes to mind for me: I ended up throwing everything out and just starting over after a couple weeks of work. The version I ended up with is much better -- but it took crumpling up the first version and tossing it entirely, which never feels good but was necessary. I'm sure there are examples from other teams too, I imagine it's not just a Content thing.

MoL

What? Boromir dies?

Nar that's the story Aragon, Gimli and Legolas put out, this is what happened:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVPNYBy3d-k

But I'd guess that sessionplay didn't leave your sphere of influence before you trashed it. Like not on Palantir or BR. But ofc there plenty I wish had been trashed and redone, threat, traits, mounted combat. Or in the case of threat, not trashed and rewritten.

However, if you can struggle to get something right with your rep, will some others be as picky, I doubt.

Mac

[Morthion]

I'll take all the blame for the Blue Line changes.

As a casual player, I kept breaking various story encounters with Barrage when I killed things that were supposed to fire a script when they hit a certain health level, and filed bug reports about the same.

It's all my fault!

[NeoBasilisk]

I'm guessing the people that are complaining are all new players who don't remember how blue line was before it got buffed to the ridiculous degree that was just now addressed?

[VadulTharys]

yeah because these people seem to think combat should last just 1-3 seconds. That should not be norm. If these people quit the game because combat takes 5 seconds, too bad... It's best for the game to combat last more than second and people who actually enjoy good game with balanced combat are majority compared to people who are into one shotting stuff and watch netflix while questing.

Ok so Minis, Guards ect should all be nerfed now? My guard in the lonelands yesterday the longest combat I had was pulling 5 wights it was all of 10 seconds. Most combat was 2 hits, lol I barely ever got to use any skills

Oh and the minis that kill 10 things in 10 seconds, yeah nerf them so they take 10 seconds to kill anything

Wardens OMG yes they have to be completely nerfed!

These all kill in a second or two most times, and for all of them it is rare they are not one shotting things 1 level below them or in the case of low level minis on shoting everything up to 4 levels higher.

yeah lets nerf everyones toons so everyone has to take 10 seconds to kill anything.

[wretchesandkings]

This conversation has quickly become silly.

This is an MMORPG, it's not that complex or difficult. We are talking about pushing buttons and applying skill rotations. While I have no doubt that the major draw to this game is Tolkien and the lore (and as such it will attract people inexperienced with this type of game-play), it is still--first and foremost--an MMORPG.

Each class (should) have an optimal skill rotation. Over time, that rotation may change based on X, Y or Z. Learn it, apply it. Or don't, that choice is yours--after all, I'm not paying your sub so who am I to tell you how to play? However, if you choose to ignore advice given either by the dev team or players, it's probably best to stay off the forums and not get involved with discussions like this.

If you're reading this thread again, I just want you to know at least one person agrees with you wholeheartedly.

[Bohemond71]

Ok so Minis, Guards ect should all be nerfed now?

100% Yes. No class should ever be consistently 1 shotting anything.

Most combat was 2 hits, lol I barely ever got to use any skills

This is precisely the problem (at least a big part of it). Lotro is not a diablo style clicking action RPG. If we kill too fast, we don't get to use our skills. This makes combat less interesting. Less skill use interferes with progressing traits too. The whole experience is vastly less engaging, less immersive.

My hunter was my first class in SoA. There were no "easy" classes then. Before any pull, I had to be careful. Eat regen food. Always lay a trap first if off cd. Watch pathers carefully. Choose my target so I didn't pull too many. Make sure I didn't bleed the one I wanted in the trap. Develop a sensible rotation of skills. I had to read tool tips. Learn how much power skills cost (when power actually mattered at low levels), what the cool down was. What focus was and which skills generated it and which spent it. This happened organically, since longer combat allowed for the use of many skills. If I messed up, I could easily die. There were consequences. Not too harsh - it was a game after all - but a pop to a rez circle and a little dread were harsh enough to make dying hurt just right.

All of this added to immersion. Made me feel like a hunter exploring the dangerous places of Middle-earth. I spent hours during the open beta level 15 cap just killing orcs in the lone-lands

yeah lets nerf everyones toons so everyone has to take 10 seconds to kill anything.

Ideally, yes. I'd prefer 15-20s overall, but 10s is a decent start.

[Arnenna]

100% Yes. No class should ever be consistently 1 shotting anything.



This is precisely the problem (at least a big part of it). Lotro is not a diablo style clicking action RPG. If we kill too fast, we don't get to use our skills. This makes combat less interesting. Less skill use interferes with progressing traits too. The whole experience is vastly less engaging, less immersive.

They best start taking a look through the creeps too then.