A big Thank You to Vastin

[Bohemond71]

They best start taking a look through the creeps too then.

I wouldn't know, this is a PvE discussion. I haven't PvPed since the 85 cap. PvPed a lot at 50, 60, and probably overall the most 65. Audacity started the death of my enjoyment of PvP and then the horrid trait trees put the nail in the coffin.

That said, I thoroughly enjoyed the much slower pace of SoA PvP

[Arnenna]

I wouldn't know, this is a PvE discussion. I haven't PvPed since the 85 cap. PvPed a lot at 50, 60, and probably overall the most 65. Audacity started the death of my enjoyment of PvP and then the horrid trait trees put the nail in the coffin.

That said, I thoroughly enjoyed the much slower pace of SoA PvP

I don't PvP anymore either, but I know a lot of players that do

It's ALWAYS a PvP discussion, anywhere in the forum that talks about classes or balance, even if it's not often directly mentioned. It's just not obvious is all.

[Theyaretakingthehobb]

100% Yes. No class should ever be consistently 1 shotting anything.



This is precisely the problem (at least a big part of it). Lotro is not a diablo style clicking action RPG. If we kill too fast, we don't get to use our skills. This makes combat less interesting. Less skill use interferes with progressing traits too. The whole experience is vastly less engaging, less immersive.

My hunter was my first class in SoA. There were no "easy" classes then. Before any pull, I had to be careful. Eat regen food. Always lay a trap first if off cd. Watch pathers carefully. Choose my target so I didn't pull too many. Make sure I didn't bleed the one I wanted in the trap. Develop a sensible rotation of skills. I had to read tool tips. Learn how much power skills cost (when power actually mattered at low levels), what the cool down was. What focus was and which skills generated it and which spent it. This happened organically, since longer combat allowed for the use of many skills. If I messed up, I could easily die. There were consequences. Not too harsh - it was a game after all - but a pop to a rez circle and a little dread were harsh enough to make dying hurt just right.

All of this added to immersion. Made me feel like a hunter exploring the dangerous places of Middle-earth. I spent hours during the open beta level 15 cap just killing orcs in the lone-lands



Ideally, yes. I'd prefer 15-20s overall, but 10s is a decent start.

You know this is only your opinion right ?

You are not voice of God and neither do you speak in name of all players .

Hunters before this massacre didn't one shot all things 100 % of time,i know myself how mordor for example was hard even for my geared hunter .

Also fast combat don't make skills less interesting,on the contrary - you learn skills so you can play faster .If you are masochistic and like 5 minutes-per-mob fights that's your right,play naked,or play only with dagger ,don't make rest of us play how YOU like it .

Also who says SoA should be standard for anything ? If you are melancholic about those times - again good for you,but you are not speaking even close in name of all players .

This is case how small group of very vocal players ( the nerf battalion ) rekted the game for majority of us who didn't want any change .

I hope that same crew spends enough to cover for us who will not spend one single $ anymore .

[DKenny]

You know this is only your opinion right ?.... .

That is the key. No, they don't see that as their opinion, they see it as an absolute. When they say "No class should ever be consistently 1 shotting anything." to them that is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of absolute right vs. wrong. So even the most powerful dps killing machine should not be able to consistently one shot "anything". Some might legitimately disagree with that, however on this forum disagreeing with that will get you labelled a "whining crybaby noob who is butthurt and too stupid to learn to play and only wants to play ezmode". Really very sad. And the same people heap the abuse on again and again and get away with it.

I for one see no problem whatsoever with a squishy class that cannot really do anything other than high dps being able to consistently one shot mobs, especially standard landscape mobs a level or two lower. However, one of those constantly in favour of nerfing classes posted 4 combats against landscape mobs 1 level lower without there being a single one shot. One of the four was only 3 attacks, due to a really high (due to rng) hit and already having barrage 3 tiered and ready to go. The other 3 combats were 8-10 attacks. That's just fine for the group that is defending these class changes, however, it is not in my book. This was a really terrible change.

[Bohemond71]

You know this is only your opinion right ?

You are not voice of God and neither do you speak in name of all players .

Of course. I would have taken all of this as a given. Unless I've wandered into some horrible totalitarian dystopia, people are still allowed to have, and share opinions.

In any case, I'm flattered you think so highly of me and my opinions that you feel the need to clarify for anyone else reading (who might be otherwise mistaken) that I'm not actually God

If you are masochistic and like 5 minutes-per-mob fights that's your right,play naked,or play only with dagger ,don't make rest of us play how YOU like it

Actually, a couple of years ago I took a champ to about 63 with no traits slotted and using nothing but auto attacks I didn't plan to, but it was actually fun. Only died 5 times and every time was my fault. First time was in the 30s. And not even then were any of my landscape fights were close to 5 minutes.

And no, I don't expect anyone to do this. But the problem is, you do want me to play how YOU like. I want a challenging hunter like in SoA? Well, that's just not possible anymore.

rekted the game for majority of us who didn't want any change

Funnily enough, that's how I feel about SoA. If only you were around then to help speak out against change!

This is a good example of how trivially easy the game still is at the lower levels:

[Tatharil]

You know this is only your opinion right ?

You are not voice of God and neither do you speak in name of all players .
(...)
This is case how small group of very vocal players ( the nerf battalion ) rekted the game for majority of us who didn't want any change .

I hope that same crew spends enough to cover for us who will not spend one single $ anymore .

And this is your opinion, you don't speak for the majority either. The bad U19 was a "case how small group of very vocal players rekted the game" for many others.

[Osweld]

yeah because these people seem to think combat should last just 1-3 seconds. That should not be norm. If these people quit the game because combat takes 5 seconds, too bad... It's best for the game to combat last more than second and people who actually enjoy good game with balanced combat are majority compared to people who are into one shotting stuff and watch netflix while questing.

Sorry, but who said that a regular mob battle must take more than 5 sec? Is it a universal law since the Big Bang?

I guess you use cars and planes but not horses . The combat in this game is way too slow but you and people alike insist the speed mustn't change.
I would be glad if they buffed all classes to increase speed, to make the gameplay more fluid. But probably because of you and your "overpowered!!!" screams they won't.

[Joedangod]

The combat in this game is way too slow but you and people alike insist the speed mustn't change.

Should be slower than it is now really. When the game launched you had to use a multitude of skills to kill an on level mob. Now most classes can do it in 2 whilst leveling.

There's a general issue with how mobs scale from around 1-85 or so, players were buffed multiple times since those level ranges were first released but mobs haven't seen much, if any, increase in their health/damage output to compensate. There's also another issue with classes like Minstrel and Guardian overperforming in low levels, those classes need their scaling tweaked so that their tooltip values no longer exceed on level mob morale pools. Basically what they did to hunter scaling they need to do to Minstrels and Guardians.

[Osweld]

Should be slower than it is now really. When the game launched you had to use a multitude of skills to kill an on level mob. Now most classes can do it in 2 whilst leveling.

And not so long ago people lived in caves and used sticks and stones to get food. The old is not always better, much more often it is worse.

Also my abandoned nerfed blue hunter and LM can't take a regular mob with two skills.

[Joedangod]

And not so long ago people lived in caves and used sticks and stones to get food. The old is not always better, much more often it is worse.

New stuff isn't necessarily better either though, is it?

Also my abandoned nerfed blue hunter and LM can't take a regular mob with two skills.

Out of curiosity; how many skills is it taking at what level ranges?

[wispsong]

yeah because these people seem to think combat should last just 1-3 seconds. That should not be norm. If these people quit the game because combat takes 5 seconds, too bad... It's best for the game to combat last more than second and people who actually enjoy good game with balanced combat are majority compared to people who are into one shotting stuff and watch netflix while questing.

How can it be for the best of the game when players quit. And balance is a myth. I don't know if players like you are the majority in game but they are the majority here. This is ME not WoW where in the name of balance classes have been destroyed and turned into specs which don't even work before participation in end game. I think what so often is forgotten by players like you is FUN.

What does it matter if combat only lasts 1-3 seconds in landscape? I don't even know how long it takes because I most certainly don't look at the clock when I play. I still wait on somebody what the magically 1-shot is on any class. By now you probably call Mordor faceroll with all your fancy gear and maxed ILIs. I don't even want to know how many players left because of that.

You know what would be reasons for me to leave? The ever growing systems I just can't keep up with on every character.

[Bohemond71]

Sorry, but who said that a regular mob battle must take more than 5 sec? Is it a universal law since the Big Bang?

I guess you use cars and planes but not horses . The combat in this game is way too slow but you and people alike insist the speed mustn't change.
I would be glad if they buffed all classes to increase speed, to make the gameplay more fluid. But probably because of you and your "overpowered!!!" screams they won't.

If 5s is too long, what would you suggest? Is there any combat speed that would be too fast for you?

What are your thoughts on a hypothetical skill that has no cooldown or power/focus cost that can guarantee a 1 shot of any enemy the same level as the player?

[Osweld]

New stuff isn't necessarily better either though, is it?



Out of curiosity; how many skills is it taking at what level ranges?

Hunter 43 - warg in Angmar at least 5 usages of skills, and what's more important at least 8-10 sec. LM 51, Moria - I think the same amount , but you know what, in average it takes less time than blue hunter, but imho it is still slow

[Joedangod]

How can it be for the best of the game when players quit.

U22.2 is getting closer to how the game was at launch, it's way, way, waaaay off still but I think you'll find more people quit as the content became utterly trivial compared to now as the content...becomes mildly less trivial.

[Giliodor]

This is ME not WoW where in the name of balance classes have been destroyed and turned into specs which don't even work before participation in end game.

Which spec in WoW does not work before end game participation? Give me an example. Here is how the specs perform in end game content:

[Bohemond71]

U22.2 is getting closer to how the game was at launch, it's way, way, waaaay off still but I think you'll find more people quit as the content became utterly trivial compared to now as the content...becomes mildly less trivial.

I'm definitely one that quit mostly due to trivial content and trait trees. Big battles and essences didn't help either.

Slightly tempted to try again - especially if Mordor and onwards is anything kinda sorta like SoA, but it's hard to get past the awful trait trees (especially when it constantly reminds me of the brilliance of the old system)

I'm a founder, so could play for free, but instead I'm now paying for both myself and my partner to play ESO. She tried LOTRO with me about a year ago. VIP + bought all the expansions. We duoed my new cappy and her LM up to 100ish. It was her first ever game of this type. She quickly went from running into walls and getting stuck behind doors to really enjoying it to thoroughly bored because the landscape was just too easy. She's as far from hardcore raider as a player can possibly be: She doesn't know what a "rotation" is but she has one. She cared about the appearance of her character's clothes, the appearance and names of her pets. She can read tooltips so learned what stats mattered. Landscape was the only content that interested her - and it was way too easy.

We wanted to enjoy the story, finish as many quests as we can, and enjoy an immersive challenge. What we got was a whole lot of 1 -2 shotting before the other could get a skill off. We didn't come close to finishing a single zone before everything turned green or light blue.

We're not teenagers on caffeine either as one poster likes to throw around (I'm pushing 50 and she 40) as if any of us are trying to turn lotro into some twitch fest - quite the opposite really, with our preference for slower, more thoughtful combat.

[siipperi]

How can it be for the best of the game when players quit. And balance is a myth. I don't know if players like you are the majority in game but they are the majority here. This is ME not WoW where in the name of balance classes have been destroyed and turned into specs which don't even work before participation in end game. I think what so often is forgotten by players like you is FUN.

What does it matter if combat only lasts 1-3 seconds in landscape? I don't even know how long it takes because I most certainly don't look at the clock when I play. I still wait on somebody what the magically 1-shot is on any class. By now you probably call Mordor faceroll with all your fancy gear and maxed ILIs. I don't even want to know how many players left because of that.

You know what would be reasons for me to leave? The ever growing systems I just can't keep up with on every character.

You know how many players quit on when they turned game into trivial solo play experience? More than lotro has players left.

[wispsong]

Should be slower than it is now really. When the game launched you had to use a multitude of skills to kill an on level mob. Now most classes can do it in 2 whilst leveling.

There's a general issue with how mobs scale from around 1-85 or so, players were buffed multiple times since those level ranges were first released but mobs haven't seen much, if any, increase in their health/damage output to compensate. There's also another issue with classes like Minstrel and Guardian overperforming in low levels, those classes need their scaling tweaked so that their tooltip values no longer exceed on level mob morale pools. Basically what they did to hunter scaling they need to do to Minstrels and Guardians.

When the game launched you also only had 50 levels. Hearing what it was like I probably would have left after a week. On the other hand maybe all this so much higher difficulty is just nostalgia because you had to learn how to play.

Having said that, I started in 2012 when the mobs in the intro were still red. I got frustrated more but made it and had fun. It wasn't as hard, frustrating, dreadful as Mordor. Even Moria was a cakewalk compared to that. And Moria nearly made me quit. I didn't do the epic because it required fellowship and there just weren't enough players on the same part of the quest. I'm thankful they got rid of that requirement. Yes, landscape has become easier since then. But you also have a lot of players who came to the game after that or because of that. You also have a lot of players who play through now 115 levels on their x alt and just don't want to fight the same mobs again for a long time.

Mordor frustrated a lot of players. U23 needs to even out that steep slope and as of there they could very slowly ramp up difficulty if they take care of the ever growing systems. Reading your comments I assume that you are raiding t2c and probably by now have maxed ILIs with perfect legacies, all trait points, perfect maxed virtues, raid gear, and gold essences. Compare that with characters who just imbued their ILI, didn't do most deeds, just have the minimum of traits through levelling and questing, Mordor/N Mirkwood quest gear, and the lowest purple essences, everything good for the class but not perfect. This is the group landscape needs to be adjusted to. Add to that differences in skill and classes. If you really want players to learn, don't dump them in the desert. Start slow. You are not starting with algebra in math.

For me starting as 115 in Mordor with 100 shadow and maxed ILI dps, I had a good difficulty increase from easy Udun to a great xperience in Agarnaith with the exception of TU. My gear was where it was supposed be in Agarnaith and the difficulty was just right.

[Tatharil]

Sorry, but who said that a regular mob battle must take more than 5 sec? Is it a universal law since the Big Bang?

I guess you use cars and planes but not horses . The combat in this game is way too slow but you and people alike insist the speed mustn't change.
I would be glad if they buffed all classes to increase speed, to make the gameplay more fluid. But probably because of you and your "overpowered!!!" screams they won't.

If you want 2 second fights, play a hack'n'slay rpg.

1-2 skill kills are for hack'n slay not for MMORPGs. The big bad 3 letters game created the myth of one click kills and fastfood content in this genre.

Using your analogy: If I want to use a horse (MMORPG) , I don't want to be forced to use a plane (hack'n'slay) or cut off the wings of the plane to be somewhat slower and more like a horse... well it still won't be a horse, but a broken plane.

If you want to use a plane(hack'n'slay), why do you take a horse and want to attach wings to it? It won't fly and guess what... it won't be a good at riding anymore, too.

[wispsong]

Which spec in WoW does not work before end game participation? Give me an example. Here is how the specs perform in end game content:

End game content. I played it for a month last year. The classes I play are boring now. I just did the WoD story line but wont be back for the Legion story. The classes felt mutilated and to spec centric. Maybe they got balance for end game right, they most definitely took the fun out of them for landscape levelling.

[siipperi]

When the game launched you also only had 50 levels. Hearing what it was like I probably would have left after a week. On the other hand maybe all this so much higher difficulty is just nostalgia because you had to learn how to play.

Having said that, I started in 2012 when the mobs in the intro were still red. I got frustrated more but made it and had fun. It wasn't as hard, frustrating, dreadful as Mordor. Even Moria was a cakewalk compared to that. And Moria nearly made me quit. I didn't do the epic because it required fellowship and there just weren't enough players on the same part of the quest. I'm thankful they got rid of that requirement. Yes, landscape has become easier since then. But you also have a lot of players who came to the game after that or because of that. You also have a lot of players who play through now 115 levels on their x alt and just don't want to fight the same mobs again for a long time.

Mordor frustrated a lot of players. U23 needs to even out that steep slope and as of there they could very slowly ramp up difficulty if they take care of the ever growing systems. Reading your comments I assume that you are raiding t2c and probably by now have maxed ILIs with perfect legacies, all trait points, perfect maxed virtues, raid gear, and gold essences. Compare that with characters who just imbued their ILI, didn't do most deeds, just have the minimum of traits through levelling and questing, Mordor/N Mirkwood quest gear, and the lowest purple essences, everything good for the class but not perfect. This is the group landscape needs to be adjusted to. Add to that differences in skill and classes. If you really want players to learn, don't dump them in the desert. Start slow. You are not starting with algebra in math.

For me starting as 115 in Mordor with 100 shadow and maxed ILI dps, I had a good difficulty increase from easy Udun to a great xperience in Agarnaith with the exception of TU. My gear was where it was supposed be in Agarnaith and the difficulty was just right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6F_4IIFx_I

[wispsong]

I'm definitely one that quit mostly due to trivial content and trait trees. Big battles and essences didn't help either.

Slightly tempted to try again - especially if Mordor and onwards is anything kinda sorta like SoA, but it's hard to get past the awful trait trees (especially when it constantly reminds me of the brilliance of the old system)

I'm a founder, so could play for free, but instead I'm now paying for both myself and my partner to play ESO. She tried LOTRO with me about a year ago. VIP + bought all the expansions. We duoed my new cappy and her LM up to 100ish. It was her first ever game of this type. She quickly went from running into walls and getting stuck behind doors to really enjoying it to thoroughly bored because the landscape was just too easy. She's as far from hardcore raider as a player can possibly be: She doesn't know what a "rotation" is but she has one. She cared about the appearance of her character's clothes, the appearance and names of her pets. She can read tooltips so learned what stats mattered. Landscape was the only content that interested her - and it was way too easy.

We wanted to enjoy the story, finish as many quests as we can, and enjoy an immersive challenge. What we got was a whole lot of 1 -2 shotting before the other could get a skill off. We didn't come close to finishing a single zone before everything turned green or light blue.

We're not teenagers on caffeine either as one poster likes to throw around (I'm pushing 50 and she 40) as if any of us are trying to turn lotro into some twitch fest - quite the opposite really, with our preference for slower, more thoughtful combat.

Stone of the tortoise. I have it on one character and put it on as long as I can play without to much difficulty which is different for each player. When it gets to that point I take it off until I hit to easy. It is a must if you want to play through the whole story because xp has increased especially if you are VIP. Playing the whole story in every zone would probably get you to lvl 150. And of cause with a partner quests are easier. I didn't change my armor from DA to Wastes because the ilvl increase is not that big even with the 5 lvls increase. That kept the content interesting.

[Skyfoot]

You know how many players quit on when they turned game into trivial solo play experience? More than lotro has players left.

Wild, unsubstantiated speculation. If that was truly the case, it wouldn't have taken them 3 years to reintroduce 12-man raids back into the game.

[Joedangod]

Wild, unsubstantiated speculation. If that was truly the case, it wouldn't have taken them 3 years to reintroduce 12-man raids back into the game.

Technically there's more evidence that he's right than there's evidence that people are leaving en masse due to the U22.2 changes. After all, they had to run server merges after Helms Deep and such, such a thing isn't needed now for example.

[siipperi]

Wild, unsubstantiated speculation. If that was truly the case, it wouldn't have taken them 3 years to reintroduce 12-man raids back into the game.

Well they still did that and considering that's something they are doing in future it's quite good indicator don't you think? Every single veteran agrees how LOTRO was run by certain executive is the reason why big parts of the community left this game.