A big Thank You to Vastin

[wispsong]

That doesn't change that your facts are wrong. It's objectively true that WoW releases more content on a more regular basis. Whether you enjoy the content or not is irrelevant to that. Your information about the frequency of raid releases is also just objectively wrong. That is, unless we include the several months of content draught at the end of the previous expansion, for which WoD is well known. That would be rather unfair, wouldn't it?

If it makes you happy, I was wrong because I didn't check forum posts with facts. Content draughts on the other hand at the end of xpacks of 9+ months are very common in WoW while I played. Haven't seen anything that this changed but I'm not playing anyways and they might have changed it with Legion.

[DKenny]

....Those are my ideas. I'm not them so I can't know for sure, but if I had to guess, I would say I'm not too off the mark in some way, at least.

I don't know if it will work. Maybe it will attract more players, but among gaming circles this game seems to have a pretty bad rap as just being an old, crusty game that isn't worth playing anymore. Still, they are trying, which is more than I can say they were doing for many years there.

I expect that some of your guesses are actually pretty close to the mark. However, as you describe, I think it's much tougher to attract new players to this "old, crusty game" than it is to simply retain those that still play it. Upsetting and losing existing players in the hopes of attracting enough new ones to more than make up the loss is a very risky strategy indeed. Better would be to make changes that don't upset existing players while still potentially attracting new ones. Part of the problem with making changes that lose players is that some of them will never come back, even if the change that caused them to leave is undone. This is especially true after a lot of time has passed. Did they really attract back many players who quit when HD came out, when they started to create new raids again?

[VadulTharys]

That doesn't change that your facts are wrong. It's objectively true that WoW releases more content on a more regular basis. Whether you enjoy the content or not is irrelevant to that. Your information about the frequency of raid releases is also just objectively wrong. That is, unless we include the several months of content draught at the end of the previous expansion, for which WoD is well known. That would be rather unfair, wouldn't it?

Have a suggestion for all those people who like to grind out uber max toons and spend all their time raiding....GO TO WOW, and quit ruining our game. The one thing I have noticed every serious mistake the devs have made in game play was to cater to former WOW players. Have an idea go back to wow and quit ruining LOTRO. You want all these challenges ect go to WOW..OHHH wait yeah you can go from character creation to max level with max raid gear in no more than 24 game play hours if you work at it. LOL yeah ok some challenge there.

[paintpixie]

I expect that some of your guesses are actually pretty close to the mark. However, as you describe, I think it's much tougher to attract new players to this "old, crusty game" than it is to simply retain those that still play it. Upsetting and losing existing players in the hopes of attracting enough new ones to more than make up the loss is a very risky strategy indeed. Better would be to make changes that don't upset existing players while still potentially attracting new ones. Part of the problem with making changes that lose players is that some of them will never come back, even if the change that caused them to leave is undone. This is especially true after a lot of time has passed. Did they really attract back many players who quit when HD came out, when they started to create new raids again?

Oh yes. I totally agree it is very risky. I can only think that they either thought they had a sure thing with the customers they had, as they have the only game set in Middle Earth and would thus hold a monopoly over Tolkien fans who would stick it out regardless. Or that those fans were dwindling away anyway and they had to make a call.

As for when they stopped doing group content for awhile, I think a lot of people left for good. I know I personally ran with a group back before then, and they all left for good as far as I know.

[Giliodor]

If it makes you happy, I was wrong because I didn't check forum posts with facts. Content draughts on the other hand at the end of xpacks of 9+ months are very common in WoW while I played. Haven't seen anything that this changed but I'm not playing anyways and they might have changed it with Legion.

No, not 9+ months, 9 months of content drought at most (which was at the end of WoD).

Have a suggestion for all those people who like to grind out uber max toons and spend all their time raiding....GO TO WOW, and quit ruining our game. The one thing I have noticed every serious mistake the devs have made in game play was to cater to former WOW players. Have an idea go back to wow and quit ruining LOTRO. You want all these challenges ect go to WOW..OHHH wait yeah you can go from character creation to max level with max raid gear in no more than 24 game play hours if you work at it. LOL yeah ok some challenge there.

There's so much wrong with this post, I'll try to break it down clearly.
Firstly, I'm not ruining anyone's game. I'm advocating improvements to LotRO, by means of achieving class balance. SSG's incompetence regarding the issue of class balance is not something I'm responsible for.
Secondly, I don't ever grind uber max toons, nor do I raid in LotRO.
Thirdly, what mistake was made in this recent update? Blue hunters got a well deserved nerf, and an undeserved dumbing down of their rotation (apparently that was still possible). Nothing about that is related to WoW players. Vastin himself said that the spec was just too simplistic, and that's why he changed it. The other controversial change was the nerf to minstrels. That was necessary because no single spec should be able to continuously heal the whole group to full by pressing one button. It's just that simple. I can come up with some examples of serious mistakes, though: Big Battles. Did those cater to WoW players? Don't think so. Trait trees. Did those? No, WoW moved away from trait trees, rather than embracing them. Imbued LIs. Definitely doesn't cater to WoW players in any way.

Then, you implied I'm a former WoW player. No, I'm not. I started out playing LotRO 8 years ago. I started playing WoW 1.5 years ago (and still do play it). Your assertion is simply incorrect. Another assertion you made is that you can get from character creation to being raid geared within 24 hours. This is factually incorrect, as that is in fact not possible without paying for a lvl 110 character boost, and even then, without the help of an entire raid of people that are just there to help you, that is never going to happen. Ever. The only thing you were right about was the part that you said sarcastically; that WoW offers more of a challenge. It certainly does. There is no denying that. Spare me your sarcasm. Mythic raiding is far more difficult than any raid that LotRO has ever released, and M+ as a concept easily trumps the best 6-man/3-man in LotRO's history, while also being more challenging (since, by design, you can make it as difficult as you want).

Lastly, it's players like you who ruin LotRO. You simply complain about changes that you don't like, because the game is suddenly not as easy anymore. Well guess what, it's not meant to be. The changes that are made are a necessity for the longevity of the game. It's not good design to have the best spec in the game deliver 80% of its damage by pressing a single button (Barrage). It's not good design to have the best healer in the game be uncontested in both effectiveness, and simplicity. All that was required was Bolster Courage. These changes were necessary, whether you like them or not. Do you think they went overboard with the changes to blue line hunter? Well, I agree that the rotation is now too simplistic, so don't try to blame that on me. All the rest was a change for the better, and the sooner you come to terms with that, the better.

[DKenny]

.....Firstly, I'm not ruining anyone's game. I'm advocating improvements to LotRO, by means of achieving class balance. SSG's incompetence regarding the issue of class balance is not something I'm responsible for.....

However, you do appear to fully support the latest manifestation of that "incompetence" which is ruining the game for some people, even if you're not "responsible" for it.

[Giliodor]

However, you do appear to fully support the latest manifestation of that "incompetence" which is ruining the game for some people, even if you're not "responsible" for it.

I don't support the way they handled blue line hunter changes, which I already made abundantly clear. Other changes (like minstrel and guardian changes), although disliked by certain players, were good changes. Merely claiming that "minstrels are bad now because they're not like they were before" is hardly an argument to the contrary. In fact, it's not an argument. Any changes to minstrels were going to reduce the effectiveness of blue line. It's just that simple.

Were some changes controversial? Yes. But that doesn't make them bad. They certainly don't "ruin the game" by any stretch of the imagination. People will just have to adapt.

[DKenny]

I don't support the way they handled blue line hunter changes, which I already made abundantly clear. Other changes (like minstrel and guardian changes), although disliked by certain players, were good changes. Merely claiming that "minstrels are bad now because they're not like they were before" is hardly an argument to the contrary. In fact, it's not an argument. Any changes to minstrels were going to reduce the effectiveness of blue line. It's just that simple.

Were some changes controversial? Yes. But that doesn't make them bad. They certainly don't "ruin the game" by any stretch of the imagination. People will just have to adapt.

Well, I do agree with claiming "minstrels are bad now" isn't really a valid position because it suggests some sort of absolute. However, it is entirely legit to state "I don't like how minstrels are now, I liked them the way they were before the changes". The fact of the matter is difficulty could be set anywhere from anyone can one-shot a raid boss to it requires a full fellowship to down a single landscape mob, and everything in between. The ideal set point depends on the player base. The problem now is that some players are saying what was done is "right" in an absolute sense and anyone who doesn't like it is "wrong" (along with one or more of the usual insults). The changes don't "ruin the game" in an absolute sense for everyone. But they most certainly do ruin the game for some people, and it is entirely legit for those people to say so.

[Tirn]

I don't support the way they handled blue line hunter changes, which I already made abundantly clear. Other changes (like minstrel and guardian changes), although disliked by certain players, were good changes. Merely claiming that "minstrels are bad now because they're not like they were before" is hardly an argument to the contrary. In fact, it's not an argument. Any changes to minstrels were going to reduce the effectiveness of blue line. It's just that simple.

Were some changes controversial? Yes. But that doesn't make them bad. They certainly don't "ruin the game" by any stretch of the imagination. People will just have to adapt.

are you seriously defending the #### the SSG have introduced ? Vastin didn’t listen to you nor did Cordovan . In fact they didn’t listen to anyone . Try running around without your pocket defiler or turn up on freep without your pocket healer and you will see just how #### things are at the moment.

No ? Yeah didn’t think so .

The recent update is yet another slap in the face for creepside . Whether a hunter is blue line or not is irrelevant they are still ridiculously op and now we have the moronic trash guardians suddenly appearing in their legion to irritate us with their charge stun , stun , stun attitude , the same with the new chimps , the same CDG is everything Burgs , the same 200k ###### cappy and the complete clown loremasters with their ancient craft and lightning storm all or nothing stance . It’s complete and utter junk . At least Spilo had the right idea that perhaps finally we should ignore SSG and go play something else .

Oh oh sorry I missed the rancid rune keeper with their epic conclusion.

Mincers were always silly no point in even going there and bears are about as much use as ashtrays on a motorbike . Did I miss anything ?

[Giliodor]

Well, I do agree with claiming "minstrels are bad now" isn't really a valid position because it suggests some sort of absolute. However, it is entirely legit to state "I don't like how minstrels are now, I liked them the way they were before the changes". The fact of the matter is difficulty could be set anywhere from anyone can one-shot a raid boss to it requires a full fellowship to down a single landscape mob, and everything in between. The ideal set point depends on the player base. The problem now is that some players are saying what was done is "right" in an absolute sense and anyone who doesn't like it is "wrong" (along with one or more of the usual insults). The changes don't "ruin the game" in an absolute sense for everyone. But they most certainly do ruin the game for some people, and it is entirely legit for those people to say so.

Yes, but that statement should come with the disclaimer "for me". Making it look like the changes ruined the game as a whole is nonsensical, and irrational. It's clear that every bit of content in the game is still quite managable. The only possible way that someone could experience the (for example) minstrel changes as "ruining the game" is that they enjoyed spamming Bolster Courage. That isn't nearly as effective as it used to be. It should never have gotten to that point in the first place. Obviously some people are going to give some push back because they don't like it when they get nerfed. However, it's objectively true that the majority of the content in this game was trivialised by the effectiveness of pre-22.2 AoE Bolster. Therefore, it's better for the game to not have this mechanic in place, and give minstrels some more tools to heal a single target slightly more effectively, to compensate.

So yes, the nerf to AoE bolster was right in an absolute sense. The way in which the class was compensated for that nerf, however, might not have been. I would have done it differently, that is certain. I think minstrels are fine the way they are now, though. They're certainly more interesting, in the sense that they have to utilise more buttons to heal their fellowship.

are you seriously defending the #### the SSG have introduced ? Vastin didn’t listen to you nor did Cordovan . In fact they didn’t listen to anyone . Try running around without your pocket defiler or turn up on freep without your pocket healer and you will see just how #### things are at the moment.

It's rather obvious that Vastin listened to everyone who was posting in the Hunter Feedback thread. So you're wrong. The second part of this is completely irrelevant.

Am I defending the minstrel nerfs? Yes.
Am I defending the blue hunter nerfs? Yes.
Am I defending the red hunter buffs? Yes.
Am I defending the red guardian changes? Yes.

Feel free to explain the problem with any of the changes, in your eyes. However, your explanation cannot include PvMP, as that aspect of the game is not relevant to the balancing process.

(By the way, I barely play freep, and when I do, I am the pocket healer).

No ? Yeah didn’t think so .

Awww.

The recent update is yet another slap in the face for creepside . Whether a hunter is blue line or not is irrelevant they are still ridiculously op and now we have the moronic trash guardians suddenly appearing in their legion to irritate us with their charge stun , stun , stun attitude , the same with the new chimps , the same CDG is everything Burgs , the same 200k ###### cappy and the complete clown loremasters with their ancient craft and lightning storm all or nothing stance . It’s complete and utter junk . At least Spilo had the right idea that perhaps finally we should ignore SSG and go play something else .

This update wasn't made with creepside in mind. But that aside, it certainly matters whether or not hunters are in blue or in red. In blue, they used to have more focus generation passively, and more mobility. Red line doesn't allow for the same mobility, and requires the use of induction skills to generate focus. Consequently, it's easier to shut down a hunter and prevent it from delivering its damage. It's certainly better for creeps that red line hunters are better than blue line hunters. Charge stun is annoying, yes. I wish they had not re-added it. I was advocating in favour of its removal. However, it was also advocating in favour of it being a viable DPS spec. Freeps in general are just too OP for PvP. It's not an issue that came about through this particular class update. Moreover, Lightning Storm was nerfed and captain heals were nerfed.

And yes, I have been playing other games for several years now. How can anyone stand playing LotRO PvMP for more than a few months?

Oh oh sorry I missed the rancid rune keeper with their epic conclusion.

Which was nerfed because of this update. Doesn't that make you happy?

Mincers were always silly no point in even going there and bears are about as much use as ashtrays on a motorbike . Did I miss anything ?

Minstrels can't just target themselves and spam Bolster to heal anymore. That's a good change. Their AoE healing isn't nearly as strong. That benefits creeps. You probably don't realise what the changes are, because you don't play a minstrel. I doubt you even noticed a difference. But of course it's easier to complain about it, even though you do not know what you're complaining about.

[Theyaretakingthehobb]

well since Vastin posted this in other thread and then closed it ,il respond here


" I'm perfectly willing to take suggestions for future updates, but 'make it all like it was before' isn't one of them, so I'm going to wrap up this thread here.

-Vastin

Well my dear Dev -
I'm not willing to spend one single $ more unless things " go like they were before " ,let's see who can play this game longer - players or the company,because i'm pretty sure we pay you and you don't pay us .

What we see here is another Helms Deep size debacle,first one nearly destroyed the game ,this time it just may be the end .

[miriadel]

my god what an arrogant response. you can disagree with a Dev, that is well in your right, but being rude to him, not. It's his job so show some respect at least... so much for a thank you thread....

These last couple days the forums are more like a saltery... there's so much salt all the oceans combined are insipid in comparison

[Theyaretakingthehobb]

my god what an arrogant response. you can disagree with a Dev, that is well in your right, but being rude to him, not. It's his job so show some respect at least... so much for a thank you thread....

These last couple days the forums are more like a saltery... there's so much salt all the oceans combined are insipid in comparison

I wasn't rude to him,and i don't owe him one ounce of respect .

Especially since he is the guy who basically said " i know better than all the players,it's gonna be my way - screw the rest " .

[paintpixie]

For any of the people who are unhappy with this change, have you played around with your hunter at all in-game?

I hate sudden changes as much as the next guy. And it really had me hung up for awhile too, but I kept working with it, and I eventually (after spending way too much gold triaiting and retraiting) got it to where it's almost exactly where I was before, damage wise. I think I sacrificed a little smidge on power regen, but I'm still not having difficulty with that either, really.

If any of you would like help, I can help you. Feel free to ask. If you want to give it another shot before quitting, it's definitely worth the try in my opinion.

[VadulTharys]

For any of the people who are unhappy with this change, have you played around with your hunter at all in-game?

I hate sudden changes as much as the next guy. And it really had me hung up for awhile too, but I kept working with it, and I eventually (after spending way too much gold triaiting and retraiting) got it to where it's almost exactly where I was before, damage wise. I think I sacrificed a little smidge on power regen, but I'm still not having difficulty with that either, really.

If any of you would like help, I can help you. Feel free to ask. If you want to give it another shot before quitting, it's definitely worth the try in my opinion.

I have done the same, for me the impact was minimal, my issue is how it is impacting the new players, my first post was going out on my main, and retraiting exactly as before to test the changes. Faced mobs I had no difficulty killing the day before (no one shot killing mind you but using a decent rotation). To find I was not even getting them down 1/4 with the exact same rotation as the day before. So I posted a complaint, knowing full well if I was having issues all the new players who had hunters would be having worse ones. After about 15 retraits I got it down to a 9 shot rotation to do what I had done before the nerf with a 4 shot or maybe a 5 shot rotation, so going from 4-5 seconds to in some cases 20 seconds, dear old Joe thinks every landscape mob even 10 levels lower should be a 10 second kill. When it takes 2 shots to kill a basic landscape mob 70 levels lower yeah there is an issue. I have been working with those in my kinship to understand they have to now grind trait points, they have to balance out how they play.

I love how all these defending the changes go on and on about the barrage nerf, the thing is unless you were above lvl 70 and had the right build you never once could use that exploit. It is end gamers whining about something that only affects them if they were red line so they got it changed now everyone even brand new players are being punished for their hate for blue line.

Did blue line need a nerf - YES god yes was in many cases at higher levels stupid easy.
Did new players select a hunter and see the descriptions believe wow I am going to play a squishy massive dps class ok cool. Only to find out that now every other class out performs them at low level and it does not balance out until somewhere around lvl 40? NO they did not.

Did the devs do a great job at what they said they would? Yes they did, they went above and beyond on the landscapes, the good boosts and balancing on the other classes, it is actually a joy to play a guard again, and Cappys OMG they are for once fun to play at low levels.

Minis are still on shot killing every landscape mob up to lvl 40 but hey their nerf is coming right?

But what was done to RKs and Hunters is disgraceful even if it was exactly what the devs said it would be. The worst part is them not caring how badly they hosed over the new players. That is already costing them, and will continue to cost them, maybe when a few of them suddenly find they are unemployed they will understand their mistake.

[VadulTharys]

No, not 9+ months, 9 months of content drought at most (which was at the end of WoD).



There's so much wrong with this post, I'll try to break it down clearly.
Firstly, I'm not ruining anyone's game. I'm advocating improvements to LotRO, by means of achieving class balance. SSG's incompetence regarding the issue of class balance is not something I'm responsible for.
Secondly, I don't ever grind uber max toons, nor do I raid in LotRO.
Thirdly, what mistake was made in this recent update? Blue hunters got a well deserved nerf, and an undeserved dumbing down of their rotation (apparently that was still possible). Nothing about that is related to WoW players. Vastin himself said that the spec was just too simplistic, and that's why he changed it. The other controversial change was the nerf to minstrels. That was necessary because no single spec should be able to continuously heal the whole group to full by pressing one button. It's just that simple. I can come up with some examples of serious mistakes, though: Big Battles. Did those cater to WoW players? Don't think so. Trait trees. Did those? No, WoW moved away from trait trees, rather than embracing them. Imbued LIs. Definitely doesn't cater to WoW players in any way.

Then, you implied I'm a former WoW player. No, I'm not. I started out playing LotRO 8 years ago. I started playing WoW 1.5 years ago (and still do play it). Your assertion is simply incorrect. Another assertion you made is that you can get from character creation to being raid geared within 24 hours. This is factually incorrect, as that is in fact not possible without paying for a lvl 110 character boost, and even then, without the help of an entire raid of people that are just there to help you, that is never going to happen. Ever. The only thing you were right about was the part that you said sarcastically; that WoW offers more of a challenge. It certainly does. There is no denying that. Spare me your sarcasm. Mythic raiding is far more difficult than any raid that LotRO has ever released, and M+ as a concept easily trumps the best 6-man/3-man in LotRO's history, while also being more challenging (since, by design, you can make it as difficult as you want).

Lastly, it's players like you who ruin LotRO. You simply complain about changes that you don't like, because the game is suddenly not as easy anymore. Well guess what, it's not meant to be. The changes that are made are a necessity for the longevity of the game. It's not good design to have the best spec in the game deliver 80% of its damage by pressing a single button (Barrage). It's not good design to have the best healer in the game be uncontested in both effectiveness, and simplicity. All that was required was Bolster Courage. These changes were necessary, whether you like them or not. Do you think they went overboard with the changes to blue line hunter? Well, I agree that the rotation is now too simplistic, so don't try to blame that on me. All the rest was a change for the better, and the sooner you come to terms with that, the better.

Really I just did it started a new toon and had max everything in 24 game time. That was 3 real play days, have seen my friends do it in two days playing, lol I know one guy who likes to talk trash to us does it with any class in 12 hours game time. He will crank out a max level, max geared toon every day just to show us he is better.

Want to try again? Or are you a ###### wow player as well?

[Giliodor]

Really I just did it started a new toon and had max everything in 24 game time. That was 3 real play days, have seen my friends do it in two days playing, lol I know one guy who likes to talk trash to us does it with any class in 12 hours game time. He will crank out a max level, max geared toon every day just to show us he is better.

Want to try again? Or are you a ###### wow player as well?

Is that so? Link me your character's armory page and warcraft logs. Then we'll decide. And just for the record, "raid gear" would include two legendaries, which takes at least a week to unlock. It also means your ilvl should be above 950, since Heroic drops 945 ilvl gear.

[siipperi]

my god what an arrogant response. you can disagree with a Dev, that is well in your right, but being rude to him, not. It's his job so show some respect at least... so much for a thank you thread....

These last couple days the forums are more like a saltery... there's so much salt all the oceans combined are insipid in comparison

Someone made document about our forums.

[wispsong]

For any of the people who are unhappy with this change, have you played around with your hunter at all in-game?

I hate sudden changes as much as the next guy. And it really had me hung up for awhile too, but I kept working with it, and I eventually (after spending way too much gold triaiting and retraiting) got it to where it's almost exactly where I was before, damage wise. I think I sacrificed a little smidge on power regen, but I'm still not having difficulty with that either, really.

If any of you would like help, I can help you. Feel free to ask. If you want to give it another shot before quitting, it's definitely worth the try in my opinion.

As said somewhere I found a solution to the clunkyness of the new blue hunter by traiting deep into red for Deadly Precision. It doesn't help much with the 2/2/2/15 Barrage cd but at least with focus spells. It would be nice to know if there is another solution to this since I level another hunter who will never get this many trait points. For me it is not as much about dps then about the mobile hunter play as a whole. I played blue since the trait trees.

Vastin, if you are reading this, could there be a better more visible sign for Volley. These instant induction shots would right now be very helpful but I just don't know when I can use them. Somebody said there is an icon under the healthbar but for the most part of the fight I have my eyes fixed on the small map to prevent kiting into mobs and the skillbar. Please something for players who don't see that good.

[DKenny]

Yes, but that statement should come with the disclaimer "for me". Making it look like the changes ruined the game as a whole is nonsensical, and irrational. It's clear that every bit of content in the game is still quite managable. The only possible way that someone could experience the (for example) minstrel changes as "ruining the game" is that they enjoyed spamming Bolster Courage. That isn't nearly as effective as it used to be. It should never have gotten to that point in the first place. Obviously some people are going to give some push back because they don't like it when they get nerfed. However, it's objectively true that the majority of the content in this game was trivialised by the effectiveness of pre-22.2 AoE Bolster. Therefore, it's better for the game to not have this mechanic in place, and give minstrels some more tools to heal a single target slightly more effectively, to compensate.

So yes, the nerf to AoE bolster was right in an absolute sense. The way in which the class was compensated for that nerf, however, might not have been. I would have done it differently, that is certain. I think minstrels are fine the way they are now, though. They're certainly more interesting, in the sense that they have to utilise more buttons to heal their fellowship....

Well, you're essentially doing here just exactly what I was describing. Yes, people who don't like the changes, should say, "the changes are bad in my opinion" or "the changes have ruined the game for me". However, you turn around and claim that the changes are good in an absolute sense, which is just as wrong as claiming they are bad in an absolute sense. Everyone has an opinion, some think the changes are an improvement others see them as ruining the game. But in every case that's the individual person's opinion. You appear to be claiming that the changes are in fact good in an absolute sense, and therefore while some people obviously don't like them, those people must therefore be "wrong".

[Giliodor]

Well, you're essentially doing here just exactly what I was describing. Yes, people who don't like the changes, should say, "the changes are bad in my opinion" or "the changes have ruined the game for me". However, you turn around and claim that the changes are good in an absolute sense, which is just as wrong as claiming they are bad in an absolute sense. Everyone has an opinion, some think the changes are an improvement others see them as ruining the game. But in every case that's the individual person's opinion. You appear to be claiming that the changes are in fact good in an absolute sense, and therefore while some people obviously don't like them, those people must therefore be "wrong".

I'm saying that the changes were right in the absolute sense, if we define "right changes" to be those that increase the longevity of the game, and move it away from the "press one button to perform your role" state that has been so prevalent in hunters as well as minstrels. Any reasonable person would agree that that being able to perform a healing role by pressing one button is poor design. Yes, some people are still going to say that moving away from what I described is a "bad change". To those people, I would submit that they should find another game to play, because that's not what an MMO like LotRO is about. You're meant to actually utilise the abilities given to you, and combine them in a meaningful way. If the game discourages that, by making it less effective than spamming one button, I should imagine that even you would agree with me that that is a bad thing, and a poor class design.

And yes, you can continue to say that it's not right in an absolute sense. That's only because some people will not agree with my axiomatic definition of a "right change". However, any reasonable person would agree with me, so that point is irrelevant.

[DKenny]

I'm saying that the changes were right in the absolute sense, if we define "right changes" to be those that increase the longevity of the game, and move it away from the "press one button to perform your role" state that has been so prevalent in hunters as well as minstrels. Any reasonable person would agree that that being able to perform a healing role by pressing one button is poor design. Yes, some people are still going to say that moving away from what I described is a "bad change". To those people, I would submit that they should find another game to play, because that's not what an MMO like LotRO is about. You're meant to actually utilise the abilities given to you, and combine them in a meaningful way. If the game discourages that, by making it less effective than spamming one button, I should imagine that even you would agree with me that that is a bad thing, and a poor class design.

And yes, you can continue to say that it's not right in an absolute sense. That's only because some people will not agree with my axiomatic definition of a "right change". However, any reasonable person would agree with me, so that point is irrelevant.

I see. So anyone who disagrees with your view on it is unreasonable and of course therefore wrong in an absolute sense. I guess the only proof one way or the other is your "longevity" claim. We shall see.

[DKenny]

well since Vastin posted this in other thread and then closed it ,il respond here


" I'm perfectly willing to take suggestions for future updates, but 'make it all like it was before' isn't one of them, so I'm going to wrap up this thread here.

-Vastin

.....

Not sure what to make of that. Seems a rather mixed message saying he's willing to take suggestions but then closing the thread in which he said it. In any case it seems as though the parameters for what will be considered have been set in such a way that nothing suggested by those with fundamental objections to the changes will be considered.

[NeoBasilisk]

Not sure what to make of that. Seems a rather mixed message saying he's willing to take suggestions but then closing the thread in which he said it. In any case it seems as though the parameters for what will be considered have been set in such a way that nothing suggested by those with fundamental objections to the changes will be considered.

Yes, you are correct. The feedback "Make it like it was before" is not going to be taken seriously.

[Silmelin]

I'm perfectly willing to take suggestions for future updates, but 'make it all like it was before' isn't one of them, so I'm going to wrap up this thread here.

-Vastin

Hello, Vastin! I have some feedback for blue hunter

I absolutely do NOT want blue hunter to be returned to what it was, but it could use a lil tweak to make it more fluid again in lower/medium levels, that would make it more fun for me again I don't know how it plays at max levels, all my hunters are below max.

What I most enjoy when it comes to playing my hunters is this:
* Being able to run fast
* Move while shooting
* Being able to shoot a bunch of arrows at stuff without having to stop and wait for focus to come back
* And also I don't like it when one single skill has more than one cooldown, it breaks the rythm for me and makes the fighting less smooth and more clunky which makes it less fun. I can't keep track of which cooldown it's on, so I keep pressing it by mistake when it's on it's longest cooldown.

So anything that would make the fighting more fluid for hunters of lower levels would be great!



And Vastin, thank you so very very much for coming to talk to everyone on the Bullroarer forums and here, it is very much appreciated! It's a lot easier to test things and give feedback when there is a bit of back and forth, getting to hear the what and why of any changes made