What's the state of LM melee?

[Tatharil]

After the Helm's Deep desaster I think about playing a LM again, but only if Staffstrike and flanking are worthwhile again. Those were the things I loved about LM besides debuffing. Flank'n'spank. Did the balance patch change anything in this area?
Or are meleeskills and flanking (staffstrike bonus damage and healing) still left behind?
Does a melee relic improve staffdps enough to make staffstrike worthwhile again?

[Estelrandir]

After the Helm's Deep desaster I think about playing a LM again, but only if Staffstrike and flanking are worthwhile again. Those were the things I loved about LM besides debuffing. Flank'n'spank. Did the balance patch change anything in this area?

This is my pure personal opinion: flank is forgotten for devs. During first class balance Vastin planned to remove WF (for something new, we never learned what it should be) but on the request of the players it was kept. The reasoning of players behind it was rather skill useful while moving than flank effect. There was change in Staff-sweep for red line which introduced new bug: Staff-sweep doesn´t restore power on flank effect.

Therefore my opinion is that the flank is forgotten mechanic. (Still I love it and would welcome revision of it.)

Or are meleeskills and flanking (staffstrike bonus damage and healing) still left behind?

Problem with imbued staff is that its dps is static. It doesn´t increase with increasing levels on imbued LI. While physical classes have dps attribute on LI (which is improved with every new cap on ILIs), we have tactical rating which doesn´t influence the damage of the staff. Therefore at lvl 115 the off-hand swords have better dps than the (2-handed) staff itself.

I wanted to look closer on the flank numbers but I didn´t get to it yet. Just what I saw: flank heal is around 2k (not sure if crit or non-crit, before rebalance it was crit value). The flank dmg is around 2-2,5k as crit value, around 1,2k non-crit value.

The staff sweep does now light dmg (staff strike doesn´t).

Technically, the flank bonus dmg may double the dmg output of staff strike, but that just means that the dmg of staff strike itself is very weak. Bears in N. Mirkwood have around 115k morale. So you can imagine how long would it to take down only with staff strike.

Does a melee relic improve staffdps enough to make staffstrike worthwhile again?

I didn´t think about, so I didn´t test it. As mentioned above, the dmg of the staff wasn´t adjusted since the introduction of ILIs, so theoretically it could be bigger boost. But I am not sure if it would even work. Right now you can´t put healing rune of the weapon or vice versa, the dmg rune on class item anymore. So it might be the case that dps relict brings nothing to dps of the staff.

My question: Didn´t you want to play a LM without BE? Or it was someone else?

My advice: Play an high elf in the introduction. Flank bonus dmg there (and only there) deals around 10k dmg (non-crit if I remember correctly). Since I saw this number for the first time I am very curious, how they programmed flanking that upscaled character deals so much flank dmg.

Hm, thinking about it, maybe I should try big battles on low lvl LM to see how strong flank damage is there.

[Tatharil]

My question: Didn´t you want to play a LM without BE? Or it was someone else?

Yes it was me, but it lost its appeal around lvl 65. Staffstrike was beginning to become weaker. I hoped the balance patch improved flanking again.

I loved the old LM. Using Eagle for reliable flanks, pulling with embers, adding fire lore, GoW while foe is running towards me, then Staffstrike on CD and throw in LotrD, staffsweep....

This times are over. Anyway, maybe a build using blue line for the Feral buff and Eagle(+50% Gust of Wind damage +5% crit) could work? Solid flankrate for Staffstrike, interrupts, + Feral buff improving GoW.

[anteku]

This times are over. Anyway, maybe a build using blue line for the Feral buff and Eagle(+50% Gust of Wind damage +5% crit) could work? Solid flankrate for Staffstrike, interrupts, + Feral buff improving GoW.

Yea, I used to enjoy flank-n-spank too. The melee skills are now mostly useful for the secondary effects (e.g. sword and storm's stun) than for damage per se.

Blue is very viable for landscape and some group content. I'd suggest the bear over the eagle. I've not used the eagle in a long time, but I wouldn't be surprised if the bear's flank rate is higher. The bear flanks very consistently and often.

[Elquasso]

This times are over. Anyway, maybe a build using blue line for the Feral buff and Eagle(+50% Gust of Wind damage +5% crit) could work? Solid flankrate for Staffstrike, interrupts, + Feral buff improving GoW.

Good times / old times are indeed over. I sometimes run in blue with the Eagle for the same reasons you listed above. Or the Bear.

[Estelrandir]

I just checked the numbers:

Flank bonus dmg:
non-crit: 1 200 - 1 400
crit: 2 000 - 2 600

the rune has no effect on the values. I tested it without rune, with tact rune and with dps rune. Dps rune doesn´t work on the staff, thus no staff strike dmg improvement. Staff strike itself deals approximatly slightly less than double flank dmg.

Flank heal:
without heal rune:
non-crit: 1 000 - 1 300
crit: 2 500 - 3 300

with heal rune:
non-crit: 1 300 - 1 800
crit: 3 200 - 4 400

The flank effect will crit whenever the original effect of the skill deals crit or devastated dmg.

The moral pool of LM on lvl 115 is around 70k, the enemies have around 95k - 115k and they are dealing around 4k - 5k hits. (Thus flank heal doesn´t even heal 1 hit from the enemy.) Now you can compare it to your experience and decide, if the values are enough high for you.

[Tatharil]

Thank you for your thorough testing, Estelrandir.

I think my LM will remain covered in dust. If not even melee rune improves staffstrike... LM without melee and worthwhile flanking isn't the same.
Maybe I will try a yellow burglar while I wait for yellow hunter to get his balance patch. Or maybe I will play good old Baldur's Gate in the meantime.

[Herwegur]

This has been brought up multiple times during first phase of LM changes, a month ago on Bullroarer. By myself among others, I completely share your approach to LM melee.

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...65#post7838765
Linking it again, as reviving discussion about this is VERY much needed.

Waiting for next phase in LM changes. Cautiously optimistic that melee will be adjusted up. It needs it. Staff Strike dmg legacy hasn't scaled well at all.

[aldariondb]

I have just started playing LM over the last 3 months so was not familiar with the old mechanics. Like was said before, the melee does not get the benefit of rune, only the tactical. I must say that the staff skills are not part of my skill bar at the moment.

[Estelrandir]

I have just started playing LM over the last 3 months so was not familiar with the old mechanics.

All new LMs since HD will have no idea what old Staff strike was about. Here you can find the old trait for it:

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...65#post7838765

Back then it was so strong trait that it was considered as legendary (well, at least by me). In today´s language it would belong to the last raw of the skill tree.

Today staff strike is so weak that new LMs can´t really see a reason to use it when compared to the power of other skills.

[Tatharil]

Things Lm lost with HD:

Master of the Staff: + 5% morale, Staffstrike stuns if it crits, + 25% critchance, + 50% critical multiplyer, Staffstrike deals light damage (benefits from + lightdamage title)(And i think + 20 or 25% Staffstrike damage)


Sword and Staff: the + 15% melee damage are gone. Old LMs(created pre HD) still have it or at least had it before i deleted my old LM due to bored and disgusted by HD class changes. New LMs don't get the melee bonus.

old Sword and Staff: https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Sword_and_Staff

new Sword and Staff: https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Swo...taff_(passive)

Staffdamage not scaling since lvl 100.