Bullroarer Update 23 (Build #1) - Preview and General Feedback

[Thurinuor]

I would love to see more cosmetics in the shop than lootboxes and keys. I would buy every pet or an beorning steed or something like that (weopon cosmetics). I rarely buy keys or stuff like that because pets and mouts stay forever, gear is obsolete in a couple of month...

[BotLike]

Also , landscape is once again ridiculous.
As a guardian you can hit 1 sweeping cut only , run to the next target and the previous one will bleed to death.
That's with a lazy build with purple/yellow gear from tavern , no essences at all and only 86k mastery.
This feels like pre-mordor and the wastes all over again.
There are some signatures here and there , but overall its a total joke really.

This nerf on enemies was way too much.

[Narunthon]

I, too, am worried about the p2w scheme that seems to be cooking. But, more importantly to me, I am also worried about the mastery changes. Does anyone have any feedback regarding the DPS drop (specifically for Hunters)? Hunters are one trick ponies and from reading about the update it seems that one trick might be taken away. Champs can (sort of) tank, minis can heal, Rk can (sort of) heal. Hunters only rain death and destruction and thats it. If a hunter cant do that anymore, whats my motivation to keep playing (and thusly pay SSG money for VIP ect ect). Your pay to win ideas will only work if we play.....

[Joedangod]

Hunters only rain death and destruction and thats it.

A class does not need to be inherently better at something in order to be good. It just needs to be competitive with everything else that does that same thing. Asking for one class/traitline to be noticeably better than others for a particular thing is basically akin to giving the middle finger to those who play a different class/traitline with the same purpose.

That being said you should probably read through the post they made on the mastery changes. The goal was for TTK (time to kill) to be the same for DPS specs whilst non-dps specs should see a slight improvement in TTK.

[Arnenna]

Oh? To what facts do you refer?

Here's my list of facts:

1. You can't "win" LoTRO.
2. You can get better gear than you have now, or there will be better gear to get in the next update/xpac.
3. You can now "buy" that gear by opening loot boxes.

Ergo, it is NOT pay to win. It is, AT BEST, pay-to-get-the-best-gear-today-and-then-do-it-all-again-soon.

It's pay to be the better, then those that do not pay. That in itself, means that it's a flawed system, seeing as you rightly say . . . one cannot "win" LOTRO. What it does is enable people with money to have major advantage over people that do not have as much, or none at all. When we're all just running around landscape getting through content, yeah, that really doesn't matter that much. But . . .

"Winning" that can be done is the raid server firsts. It wholly depends on how quickly that raid is delivered after whatever round of gear progression comes before it. If it's a matter of a week or two, then yes, people will be able to gear up quickly by paying, jump into the raid and "win" the server firsts. That . . . is P2W, because they can only be "won" once, and speed is of the essence when it comes to the raiding kins on our servers. This may not seem important to you, or others (it isn't to me as I don't chase server firsts at all), but it's very important to the players that participate in that race, and this type of advatange that can be obtained with money, IMO, is not fair to any of them.

Edit: Gear shouldn't be in lootboxes, period, but if it really needs to be, then keys, shouldn't be in the store. Simple. Nobody has shortcuts based on the contents of their RL wallets then. Speed should come from "in-game" play, for those willing to put in the graft. Remove daily locks, let those people that want to excel forward, earn their way, not buy their way.

[Narunthon]

A class does not need to be inherently better at something in order to be good. It just needs to be competitive with everything else that does that same thing. Asking for one class/traitline to be noticeably better than others for a particular thing is basically akin to giving the middle finger to those who play a different class/traitline with the same purpose.

That being said you should probably read through the post they made on the mastery changes. The goal was for TTK (time to kill) to be the same for DPS specs whilst non-dps specs should see a slight improvement in TTK.

But, as I said, all the other classes can do other things. Hunters are ONLY for dps. Or would you like me to off-tank throne or heal in abyss on my hunter for you?

Last update they first said Blue-line hunter would stay the same DPS and redline would see an increase. That turned out to be a bold faced lie. So I will believe it when I see it with future updates, which is why I was asking if anyone had any info on current DPS on BR. Are they telling us the truth or is this like last time? Not looking forward to regearing my hunter, but I'll be happy to for the greater good of the game so long as my hunter is still viable and good at what it does. Im just asking if anyone has tested hunter to see how viable it is. And TBH landscape doesn't worry me as much as raid bosses and Moors does.

[Xerothain]

It's pay to be the better, then those that do not pay. That in itself, means that it's a flawed system, seeing as you rightly say . . . one cannot "win" LOTRO. What it does is enable people with money to have major advantage over people that do not have as much, or none at all. When we're all just running around landscape getting through content, yeah, that really doesn't matter that much. But . . .

"Winning" that can be done is the raid server firsts. It wholly depends on how quickly that raid is delivered after whatever round of gear progression comes before it. If it's a matter of a week or two, then yes, people will be able to gear up quickly by paying, jump into the raid and "win" the server firsts. That . . . is P2W, because they can only be "won" once, and speed is of the essence when it comes to the raiding kins on our servers. This may not seem important to you, or others (it isn't to me as I don't chase server firsts at all), but it's very important to the players that participate in that race, and this type of advatange that can be obtained with money, IMO, is not fair to any of them.

Edit: Gear shouldn't be in lootboxes, period, but if it really needs to be, then keys, shouldn't be in the store. Simple. Nobody has shortcuts based on the contents of their RL wallets then. Speed should come from those willing to put in the graft. Remove daily locks, let those people that want to excel froward, earn their way, not buy their way.

Hhm, would you prefer to have people who have a lot more time to spent in Lotro having a major advantage over people that can´t afford that much time? For me it is really helpful that i can "buy" some advantage to compensate my lack of time due to my fultime job. That way, i can keep up pace with my mates and run the same content. Otherwise i would be so far behind, that it wouldn´t make sense playing with them.
I think the balance is the point. It´s not having an advantage, it´s having a choice between investing time or investing money. As long there´s another way to get the same Potions - f.ex. while grinding some content, who cares? Invest money and buy it, or invest time and grind it. That should be the way.

[BotLike]

Hhm, would you prefer to have people who have a lot more time to spent in Lotro having a major advantage over people that can´t afford that much time? For me it is really helpful that i can "buy" some advantage to compensate my lack of time due to my fultime job. That way, i can keep up pace with my mates and run the same content. Otherwise i would be so far behind, that it wouldn´t make sense playing with them.
I think the balance is the point. It´s not having an advantage, it´s having a choice between investing time or investing money. As long there´s another way to get the same Potions - f.ex. while grinding some content, who cares? Invest money and buy it, or invest time and grind it. That should be the way.

Why the heck would you deserve to have the best gear if you don't even play or play way too little due to lack of time ?
We all already payed for the game , like in Mordor launch. Gear you should get through effort and character progression.

Yeah , fall behind , nothing wrong with that , do content at your own pace.
Plus , a geared player that has no idea how to play still falls behind all the same for all group play that matters and there is no pay to win remedy for that ; D

BREAKING NEWS : Most of us that complain for pay2win , also have a job and can easily pay 50 bucks or so and get full geared.

[Arnenna]

Hhm, would you prefer to have people who have a lot more time to spent in Lotro having a major advantage over people that can´t afford that much time? For me it is really helpful that i can "buy" some advantage to compensate my lack of time due to my fultime job. That way, i can keep up pace with my mates and run the same content. Otherwise i would be so far behind, that it wouldn´t make sense playing with them.
I think the balance is the point. It´s not having an advantage, it´s having a choice between investing time or investing money. As long there´s another way to get the same Potions - f.ex. while grinding some content, who cares? Invest money and buy it, or invest time and grind it. That should be the way.

Granted, there should be balance, but at the moment, the balance is pointing pretty heavily toward the dollar.

Those with time are restricted by daily locks on absolutely everything. Instances, dailies, you name it, they've locked it down. Those with a lot of money to spend have zero restrictions on what they can buy. The only limit is how much they have to spend. That's not a limit for me, and maybe not for you, but it is for some players. I also have a job to go to, and a home to run and a Granddaughter to care for full time, but guess what, if I don't have time to play, tough luck. I don't have time to go to the cinema every night either, but I don't expect the movie houses to compensate me for it.

I remember a game from a while back where players that fell behind because of time restraints were helped by kinnies and friends to catch up by running "uncapped" content with them. Those were "great" days, and not once did we hear our kinnies say "Sorry, we can't help you, because we are locked out for today, so put your hand in your pocket".


Your "invest money and buy it", is working just fine, but your "invest time and grind it" it severely constricted.

What about players with very little time and not much money to splash out? Where do they fit in with this grand plan you see?

[Hythel45]

Gear should be gotten 1 of 2 ways: 3, 6, 12 man instances ( raids and the like ) or crafting. Crafted gear for landscape content and maybe decent enough to run tier 1 instances, anything after that should be as a reward for successful completion of said instance. But never should the gear come from loot boxes.

[Jerguc]

Hhm, would you prefer to have people who have a lot more time to spent in Lotro having a major advantage over people that can´t afford that much time? For me it is really helpful that i can "buy" some advantage to compensate my lack of time due to my fultime job. That way, i can keep up pace with my mates and run the same content. Otherwise i would be so far behind, that it wouldn´t make sense playing with them.
I think the balance is the point. It´s not having an advantage, it´s having a choice between investing time or investing money. As long there´s another way to get the same Potions - f.ex. while grinding some content, who cares? Invest money and buy it, or invest time and grind it. That should be the way.

How were you able to play with your friends a few years ago then? Gear for casual players was easily obtainable with dailies, then you'd gradually improve it and at the end raid gave you the best you could ask for. Even crafted gear was good enough for landscape.

What you're saying has a major flaw in itself. These lootboxes just defeat the purpose of achievement and throw the meaning of ''playing the game to get better'' completely out the window. Instead of forcing these lootboxes down our throats, Devs could easily make the crafted gear good enough to be able to run T1 instances.

I mean back in the days it was considered an achievement if you could buy your own horse. I know it's completely diffrent these days, but would you be more happy if you bought crafted gear or whatever with ingame gold or real money? Make your own conclusions but for me paying with real money for gearing up myself is something I don't want to do.

Instead they should focus on how to keep us playing the game and paying for our VIP subs, that's what longterm plan should be. Certainly not lootboxes with gear.

[Snoopy]

Serious question. Can someone please explain to me how me buying all my new shiny gear on day one versus earning it all in 3 weeks will affect anyone else?

[Decrepify]

Serious question. Can someone please explain to me how me buying all my new shiny gear on day one versus earning it all in 3 weeks will affect anyone else?

Legitimately earning gear shows competence.
People who lack it buy the dice roll to get it.

[Nydhogg]

Since this feedback is mainly about the U23 monetization, I believe this is the appropriate thread to add to. I understand SSG needs to make money, so please make VIP worth it for long term PVE players. For new players, yes VIP unlocks the whole game, but for long term players who have already unlocked everything there is basically two choices:

- Sub for $100 a year and get the two yearly updates "for free".
- Buy the two yearly updates $8 each for a total of $16.

In my situation I would be paying $84 annually for remote mailbox access? That is not worth it to me. If you cannot add more benefits to VIP, the other solution I would suggest is to double the price of the newest quest pack to 1600 points (and only after the next update reduce it to the standard 800 points).

I reckon there would be many players paying the doubled price (I for myself would not want to wait until the content has been made obsolete with the next update). I would happily pay $32 a year for content instead of $16 if it means no more lootbox nonsense. However, I refuse to buy these keys in the store, so I am sticking to my $16 per year. (Although I really think you should charge me more.)

P.S. I cannot see the pricing for the quest pack on BR, so if you're already charging 2,000 points for this update (like the pelennor instance cluster), instead of 800 like Northern Mirkwood, I would say that's a fair price, but for $20 I expect to be able to play without having to buy gear via keys in the store. Still my point stands there is no reason for me to sub. I'd have spent $28 this year, so remote mail would cost me $72. I'll ride over to the next town instead.

[yafga]

Serious question. Can someone please explain to me how me buying all my new shiny gear on day one versus earning it all in 3 weeks will affect anyone else?

Well, it's important to keep the endgame running. And to keep players running. If people get the best gear in day 1, it will be harder to get people for runs etc.. Also don't you miss the days when it actually took some effort to get BIS gear? Instead of just buying everything for 50$ ?

AND another important thing::: They make it WAY more GRINDY to force people into buying lootboxes. It effects everyone.

[Arnenna]

Serious question. Can someone please explain to me how me buying all my new shiny gear on day one versus earning it all in 3 weeks will affect anyone else?

Because some players that buy all the shiny gear on day one will get bored very quickly after that and stop logging in. You may not be one of them, but there are players out there that will simply give it the "nothing left to do" approach and go play something else. That means less players around to do the grinds with.

In a nutshell, less players actually "playing" to win, means less company around to play with.

[Nydhogg]

AND another important thing::: They make it WAY more GRINDY to force people into buying lootboxes. It effects everyone.

Mainly this. I can only play one character these days because the grind is too much.

[idontcare789]

Im guessing this reverting to 200% is mostly to do with tactical classes. You could control the scaling at 200% but at 400% things went haywire.

[Theozor]

My initial impressions...

* The new landscape looks great. Good job, art department!
* I for one like the landscape mob morale changes, at least at upper levels. I haven't checked out low or mid levels yet, but it sure was nice for my guardian not to have to slug it out for 2+ minutes with every wolf he encountered. (Yes, I know my DPS is weak, and yes I know it's my own fault for choosing survivability over DPS.)
* I've got mixed feeling on the new area between the Erebor outdoor entrance and original main hall. On the one hand, more dwarf architecture is always good in my book, but I also miss being able to go outdoors without zoning twice.
* Do we really need another tier of crafting with new mats, especially when the previous tier was so lacking? Hopefully there will be an equivalent place to Mornaur to lessen the grind of obtaining mats.
* I wouldn't complain if LoE went away for good, but I expect we'll need it again for Minas Morgul.
* As OCD as I am, I'm happy to have a level cap that ends in 0 again.

[Seschat]

eriador new map

Oh yuck, please no. The Rhovanion map was enough of a travesty. This is LOTRO, not Gun Gale Online.

[mkcraft27]

Legitimately earning gear shows competence.

Not necessary, I know people who have full raid gear yet ant very good players.

But more importantly, does someone else getting their gear from in a different way then you, detract from your enjoyment of the game?

[yafga]

I will give you SSG my feedback regarding ash and lootboxes.

First and second step:
1. Remove those potions from the store/lootboxes. It's funny that you try to balance the game, but then adding a OP potions that u can get for real money, making it possible to heal ur self with 70% morale every one minute. Who came up with this idea? Wasn't the P2W S*storm enough for you when Mordor was released?
2. Make BIS gear available only from dailies, instances and raids.

You shouldn't release a new instance cluster, and then make it possible for people to buy the gear for real money.. Doesn't it take away from the hard work you have put into the instances ? The content you have built, thinking about players leaving as soon as they buy the best gear, and stop doing your instances. People mostly run them to get gear, or at least its a big part of it.

I have a suggestion what you could do with the lootboxes and ash gear, the system might not be completely wasted. Make the gear available for barter via Ash and or drop in lootboxes LATER into the update. Maybe a few months or so after U23 is released, as a "catch up mechanic".
Also it will make it less p2w, BIS gear should NEVER be available in lootboxes or obtainable for real money. So now for a few months people will gear by actually doing content, then raid will get released and people will move on to that, then make it possible to trade the instance gear via Ash f.ex.

By doing this you will earn some extra money from loot-boxes later on and you will keep your player base for the time being. Trust me, i know so many people that are seriously going to quit the game and cancel VIP.

Please, let us Lotro players for once get what we deserve.. you STILL have time to change this. And I urge all players to stand up against this, don't let SSG get away with it the second time.

[Macdui]

Serious question. Can someone please explain to me how me buying all my new shiny gear on day one versus earning it all in 3 weeks will affect anyone else?

It might have been 3 weeks in the past but it's likely months of grind these days. For many of us the MMO RPG is about developing our characters over time through achievements we make in game. This was the heart of the game many of us bought into 11 years ago. When you buy into the store for "progression" you diminish those in game achievements. When you make the store more important than the game then budgets move from the game to the store and the game diminishes.

Think of it as a spoilt child who gets anything they want, despised by their piers. How does that corrupted child turn out?


The alternative is making VIP worth paying for with all resources going into a compelling, engaging game. SSG's decision makers being so out of touch with the game play and MMO RPG fundamentals have all but given up on that idea and followed the lootbox/store model of even more cynical publishers.


Each "sale" proves SSG business model and we have a lesser game than we could have had, a game that with the most iconic of IPs would have had the budgets and logins of WOW.


Mac

[elzeqq]

SSG just needs to remove best in slot gear from lootboxes and make it drop in instances.

I don't know who came up with this idea that best in slot items should be from lootboxes, this never been like that before, we always got best gear from instances/raids.
Just remove the loot lock from 3/6man, tune down the items from boxes abit and everyone will be happy.

And of course remove those pots

[Dorri_Hammerfist]

needed improvements:
character selection screen has no background scenery/character for hobbits (checked only on very low graphic settings)
56 lvl red burg with slightly outdated gear was able to solo School of Tham Mirdain on level, same burg was pwned right at entrance by 2 rats + slug in the Osgiliath Labyrinth on t1. haven't checked landscape yet.