Bullroarer Update 23 Preview #2: Release Notes and Feedback Thread

[Macdui]

"crafting and LIs keeping pace"

"distribution is released at a measured, judicious pace over the course of multiple updates"

Phasing in T3 later for instances, the Raid even later.

"picking class work back up"



What are the consequences for the players? Mostly me...

Well LIs are growing with us. We have the means of obtaining crystals and scrolls in game and can chose the means to grind them. Alternatively we can buy the items in the store at the full price (who does that? is it for identifying the "target markets") or use bought MC to do it cheaper and measurably quicker. Ofc at a stroke Anfalas could be superseded.
Crafting keeping pace, well other than providing some level 120 output recipes it's a rehash of other flawed tiers. Descriptions failing to mention multiple outputs. For all intents crafters can only make might gear according to tooltips. Will we have crit outputs using the same name as non-crits? Will crit output stats show an increase in the tool tip or only the made item? Will we be faced with purchasing a choice of earring, bracelet and ring recipes with no idea if any can produce the stats combination we are looking for? Will items we then make be superseded before we get to use them, again? Another dreadful, inept implementation again? Management clueless to it's merits either way.

If we want to get the optimum gear our gameplay choices make available then with this "measured and judicious pace" our resources are tapped repeatedly over the months. Before essence it was different, each upgrade was an easy vendor for the old piece. Not such an easy decision now. You have this "better" piece, but it's got a finesse stat and you rather it was mastery. If you do equip it you have to think about maybe cutting finesse elsewhere on your gear and using up precious essence reclamation scrolls because you slotted what you think is the top tier essence in your item. You can't even "ash" your old item until the essence has been removed after all. Even an unwanted essence might have some value bartering for a malleable essence of some kind, but you are reticent because your stock of Mordor malleables has no value to you now they've been superseded along with the ash you capped and you don't want to be seen as a mug for falling for that again. You're glad you sold 30 to some "target market" on the AH before the end of beta. So you just wonder if it's even worth slotting this new gear, chances are better will come along, but who knows? Who knows how many mini-tiers of upgrades we will face? When will essence recipes be phased in? Will my profession have access to them? How many tiers of crafted essence will there be? Should I wait for the Gold versions? But like kindred used to be the best of reps who's to say we wont have "Shifting Hues" essence dumped on us that we "just have to have"?

Maybe I'll just stop playing and avoid the temptation, far better to wait for that final point update after the raid goes live, then I'll know the best I can get, as a no longer raider, will be in the game and I can avoid the constant uncertainty and thinly veiled abuse.

Yeah class work. Systems, some care a lot, some careless. My Guard tapped out on imbued legacy scrolls with the Edgecase attempt. No scrolls have yet been provided to those classes receiving a pass up to now. Likely this is how they are paying for the balancing. The most popular class taking two trait tree flips for optimal role was taking the piss.

SSG, is there anyone there that can run this game better than it is now?

Mac

[Tieros]

Facts:

• My wimpy never-grouped, landscape only L115 Beorning had no difficulty taking down L120 (red to me) signature drakes, even with an add or two. The same character on live struggles to kill 6 on-level jangovar maurader/warrior pairs every 3 days :-)
• I only saw L75 LIs as drops in Glimmerdeep
• The max morale and power scroll that I got from a Hobbit present wasn't scaled correctly. The morale gain was less than 500 on a char with 114K morale.
• Dying from misadventure in both new zones rezzed me in Moria 3 of the 4 times I jumped misadventuredly :-)
• IXP rune drops from L115-120 mobs are still 1K and 3K runes. Less than the IXP from killing the mobs
• When you exit from the new Erebor to the stable master and then try to view the map, it's showing the inside of Erebor, not the outside

Opinions:

• The new Erabor area is cool, but it makes no sense magically dropping it between the old exit and stable master. It should be connected in a way that looks like the dwarves excavated the new areas
• Skald's Drop adds at the broken part of the bridge are coming in too fast, especially with our buddy Spall chasing after them all
• Aria of Valar needs to grant deeds for unrestricted travel through Angmar, Lothlorien, and Southern Mirkwood
• Hero's dropbox loot was horrible. I only opened two, but there was nothing worth keeping out of either one of them. The only teal item I got was a Thrang's cosmetic weapon. I hate the lootbox model, but that's more of a rant than an opinion :-)

[wispsong]

Well said. End game instances, not dailies is what people want. (Aside from PvP fixes)

You mean players like you. I could care less about group instances.

[Celebreneth]

You mean players like you. I couldn't care less about group instances.

Fixed it for you. Sorry seeing people butcher common idiomatic phrases is one of my pet peeves.

But anyway, if you don't care about instances, then you would not be opposed to any changes related to instances. Therefore you and the person that you quoted would be on the same side, so to speak.

Indifference =/= opposition. Indifference means that you would be okay with whatever happens.

[Taldeen]

This isn't a minority.
Also, casuals and pretty much anyone else is more than welcome to step up and get good gear, but they should face the challenges and have consistent performance to achieve it.
Additionally, you seem to have bought right in into their locks trap, with promise of a lot of loot but only a single run. What a joke that system is, but the funny part is that people bought in.

To be blunt. I dont see major issues with instance locking of 3 mans, 6 mans. Sure i would like to be able to run multiple times with the same char again on a single day, but i can see the advantage of locks (keeping people at a similar pace/level/income).
I feel there are way more important things than this (class balance, instance balance etc.)
That said, i'm one of these non casuals, aka. progress raiders....

[Rimenuir]

To be blunt. I dont see major issues with instance locking of 3 mans, 6 mans. Sure i would like to be able to run multiple times with the same char again on a single day, but i can see the advantage of locks (keeping people at a similar pace/level/income).

Except people are gonna be buying lootbox keys to gear now. Which means it won't keep people at a similar pace/level/income

[MAWorking]

Except people are gonna be buying lootbox keys to gear now. Which means it won't keep people at a similar pace/level/income

And?
Not sure I understand your point.
Spreading out your player base can help with lag and performance issues, encourage new social interactions and help to set goals/dreams.

Are we all suppose to do this at the same time with the same stuff?

[Thurallor]

There seems to be an undocumented change in the Lua interface that breaks some plugins. I was in the middle of characterizing the problem(s) when the server went down just now.

My preliminary observation is that the Turbine.Gameplay.Item.GetItemI nfo() function is returning nil, and the Turbine.Gameplay.ItemInfo members seem to have been moved to the Turbine.Gameplay.Item object.

[Skyfoot]

I dont see major issues with instance locking of 3 mans, 6 mans. Sure i would like to be able to run multiple times with the same char again on a single day, but i can see the advantage of locks (keeping people at a similar pace/level/income).

In theory, I agree with this. However, it's only practical if you have a significant quantity/quality of instances to run. For example, FFXIV has weekly locks/caps but it also has (currently) 7 dungeons, 8 8-man raids and 2 24-man raids for you to choose from with a variety of gear sprinkled throughout. This compared to...what precious little LotRO has to offer.

Of course, the pacing argument gets thrown out the window when you introduce loot-boxes with incomparable, group-level gear.

[Skyfoot]

Spreading out your player base can help with lag and performance issues, encourage new social interactions and help to set goals/dreams.

Is that seriously your argument defending loot-boxes?

[MAWorking]

Is that seriously your argument defending loot-boxes?

No it was an observation to dispute an opinion.
As noted earlier, there is nothing productive by attacking other players. State your opinion, bugs etc and leave the petty stuff out.

Thanks.

[Skyfoot]

No it was an observation to dispute an opinion.
As noted earlier, there is nothing productive by attacking other players. State your opinion, bugs etc and leave the petty stuff out.

Thanks.

So the answer to my question is "Yes". I'm not "attacking" you but it's pretty clear that you aren't here to add anything serious to the conversation--especially with that as your argument. You're welcome.

[wispsong]

Fixed it for you. Sorry seeing people butcher common idiomatic phrases is one of my pet peeves.

But anyway, if you don't care about instances, then you would not be opposed to any changes related to instances. Therefore you and the person that you quoted would be on the same side, so to speak.

Indifference =/= opposition. Indifference means that you would be okay with whatever happens.

I like my dailies. So why I don't care for instances, I would care very much if my dailies were removed or were made less rewarding.

[mkcraft27]

Except people are gonna be buying lootbox keys to gear now. Which means it won't keep people at a similar pace/level/income

But the gear out of the lootboxes is worse then the gear in the instances. So yea people can open as many lootboxes as they want and get gear that way, but they will have worse gear then the people running instances.

[Skyfoot]

But the gear out of the lootboxes has a chance to be equal to the gear in the instances.

Fixed it for you. Keeping you honest.

[Fingerz]

But the gear out of the lootboxes is worse then the gear in the instances. So yea people can open as many lootboxes as they want and get gear that way, but they will have worse gear then the people running instances.

The issue arises that when opening lootboxes you also receive a healthy amount of ash which inturn is then bartered for the BiS gear.

[XbammyX]

Who is this 'Myself' mentioned above? Needs to be able to add all his accomplishments to his tombstone. One question though, if you say the name backwards does he disappear like Mister Mxyzptlk?

Very toxic atmosphere indeed.

Nothing there is toxic, and I explained my "accomplishments" because if I intend to comment on the feelings and experience of a hardcore raider then it might be wise to explain my background as such.

This thread is as toxic as it gets. The Instances aren't balanced yet for Tier 2, and it's the beginning of testing. How dare they, right, actually use Bullroarer for testing?

If they haven't answered your feedback the moment a new build is posted that doesn't mean it's being entirely ignored. Push the feedback again, but being toxic makes you look like a brat who's incapable of contemplating a perspective other than your own arrogant one.

I don't think there needs to be people who speak towards developers with utter contempt involved in Palantir.

I apologize if it sounds like contempt, I hold none for the developer team. I understand this is just a game, but it is a game that I enjoy.

Mahalin

I shortened your post so this one is not too long, but I have read your whole post. Forgive me but I thought my post above was plenty long and didn't want to include more, but I will now. I understand the perspective of players who do not have a static, coordinated team of experienced players, and I also understand that I should not expect a finished product on the beta server. However, I am not speaking for those types of people nor am I asking for a finished product immediately. I know perfectly well that most of the player base are not interested in extraordinarily challenging content. But, the original post in this thread by Cordovan implies (by use of the word challenge) that the developers were under some kind of impression that the current iteration of the instances were, in some way challenging. Perhaps I have misunderstood what "Let us know how you find the challenge" means, but it certainly is the case that the current iteration of these instances are not challenging to anyone of any background, not just my own.

To be clear, I do not mean challenging in the same way that a Mythic+ is challenging in WoW, or a Nightmare in Swtor, as those are back-breakingly hard and intended for the tiny minority of people that I happen to play with. I would never expect a t2 6man to ever reach that level of difficulty, nor do I want them to for that matter. My complaint, I suppose, is better articulated with this then: Even for a group of casual friends, or a PUG just looking to clear t2 for the day, the current challenging iteration of Thikil-Gundu is possible without a healer and with 3, or less, people, and I think that is a problem. Now I understand perfectly well that this is the beta server and this is not its final iteration, and I understand perfectly well that not everybody wants Mythic/Nightmare-level content, but I find it hard to look at Thikil-Gundu from any perspective (whether it be casuals, a group of friends, a PUG, hard core players, or any other) where TG t2 is okay. The reason I brought up Palantir in the first place is that bugs such as the bug with the Frost/Fire shields ought to be found and cleared up BEFORE it ever reaches Bullroarer (the fact that it wasn't implies that an instance-breaking bug is not a priority or it was never discovered in the first place, which is equally worrying because that also means that TG t2 was never even attempted on Palantir). Also, I do not think it unreasonable to say that by the time the content has reached Bullroarer, that at least some mechanics (not all, but more than zero) are implemented and testable by the broader population. Again, I apologize if my previous post sounded nagging, arrogant, bratty, childish, ignorant, or anything else. I'm just concerned by the fact that we are already 2 builds into Bullroarer and TG t2 can essentially be soloed by almost any class, and I'm sure you can understand how this might lead to negative expectations about the upcoming t3 instances and the raid.

You are not majority. You are screaming and bitching vocal forum minority, absolutely toxic and negative elitists so most people just don't want to talk with people like you and even to visit the forum.

In my kinship and friends majority is for locks and rich loot per 1 run. Because it's much more convenient for casuals. And casuals are REAL MAJORITY. For hardcore players game has raids.

I will not discuss it because it's useless. Elitists just don't accept other opinions and say that casuals don't have the right to get good loot. Just remember forum screamers, YOU ARE MINORITY.

This line of reasoning makes no sense. As you say, you are a casual, and as such, you have no need to gear out as quickly as possible, and clearly you have no desire to gear out quickly either. What content does a casual need to gear out quickly for? Festivals? Landscape? Tier 1 instances? You also say that there is a place for hard core players (in the raids) but how are we supposed to get to the raids quickly if we are stuck down here with you killing a set of 3 brain dead instances once a day? I guess we could pay money and open lootboxes, but who in their right mind would give money to SSG if the supposed majority wants them to completely disregard the opinions of a substantial portion of the player base? Also, Why should those who want to grind for hours a day not have the choice to play the game more and be rewarded for playing more? You thoroughly describe yourself more accurately than you try to describe those you clearly despise:

Casuals just don't accept other opinions and say that raiders don't have the right to get good loot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority
https://www.amazon.com/Liberty-Dover.../dp/0486421309

Also casuals do not have a right to demand the best loot in the game if they do not intend to put in the same amount of effort that the hard core players do.

Lastly, I do not understand why it is not possible that t2 and t3 content be as hard and as rewarding as players like myself and many others hope it could be (or close to it) while it also be the case that casual players are rewarded in proportion to the effort they exert in tier 1, or if they so choose to try, t2 or t3. I hope my thoughts are better articulated in this post as clearly they weren't in the last one. If anyone who has a different opinion similar to Wanderv and would like to seriously discuss it with a hardcore raider, my discord is Bammy#1789.

[MAWorking]

But the gear out of the lootboxes is worse then the gear in the instances. So yea people can open as many lootboxes as they want and get gear that way, but they will have worse gear then the people running instances.

Odds are, people will roll the dice on boxes and get X gear which is better then what they have. They then will do instances in an attempt to improve gear.

At least that is how I see it.

[MAWorking]

Also casuals do not have a right to demand the best loot in the game if they do not intend to put in the same amount of effort that the hard core players do.

I guess I just have to ask, does it matter if they do?

I have read arguments over and over again about "buying" of gear as a horrible and unfair thing and yet a single player doing this has absolutely no effect on your personal play. Me having better gear then you does not ruin your instance run.

Do not take this personally OP, but isn't this just jealousy?

[MAWorking]

So the answer to my question is "Yes". I'm not "attacking" you but it's pretty clear that you aren't here to add anything serious to the conversation--especially with that as your argument. You're welcome.

No, the answer was what I stated. Rest is you trying to pick a fight or do a "gotchya" moment.

Shrug.... beta servers brother... stay on point and try to help improve the game instead of picking a fight.

(yet another example of the toxic nature)
Why can't people simply express an opinion without personalizing it and attacking thoughts?

[XbammyX]

I guess I just have to ask, does it matter if they do?

I have read arguments over and over again about "buying" of gear as a horrible and unfair thing and yet a single player doing this has absolutely no effect on your personal play. Me having better gear then you does not ruin your instance run.

Do not take this personally OP, but isn't this just jealousy?

Let me try and explain it this way (Hard core competitive raider perspective incoming):

It doesn't really matter if a casual player can obtain the best ingame loot for t1's, boxes or whatever, BUT if a casual player can obtain this stuff then so too can a hard core player, and this is (for me) where the problem lies. As I'm sure you know, there are a large number of kins who plan on competing against each other to see who can be the first ones to clear the new raid. Allowing for THE BEST gear to drop from boxes (irregardless of how low the drop chance is, or if its RNG), t1, or anywhere outside of the harder content creates a problem where people can essentially pay for competitive advantages against other players.

An alternative perspective is that some people have a different worldview, one where hard work is rewarded, one you clearly don't share. Is it jealousy if a person thinks you should have to work hard if you want to be able to afford a Rolls Royce?Don't kid yourself about jealousy. If I wanted to I could drop $500 into this game the moment U23 came out and hand out keys and boxes to myself and everyone else on my raid team, but I don't want to do that. I shouldn't have to do that. It's an obvious attempt at a money grab by SSG.

[Rimenuir]

I guess I just have to ask, does it matter if they do?

I have read arguments over and over again about "buying" of gear as a horrible and unfair thing and yet a single player doing this has absolutely no effect on your personal play. Me having better gear then you does not ruin your instance run.

Do not take this personally OP, but isn't this just jealousy?

Have you ever gone into a t2 raid with people who only farmed CoS 105 and did dailies to get their ash for their armor? Who also buy the +96 runes on the AH because they have tons of gold from doing said dailies? Have you ever run a t2 raid with people who think they are raid ready because they have all amazing gear yet no skill?

I have, and thats because the way to gear is by using lootboxes. It cuts the skill out of what is needed to group, it cuts the ability of play because they can 1 shot a landscape mob, but dont know what to do to a mob that has 1 million morale, Oh thats right, they use rapid fire followed by swiftbow, how silly of me to expect them to use focus skills.

Buying keys and getting armor from lootboxes hurts other players, I'm not a hardcore player (still dont have Abyss gear) yet I know my class and when I group, I expect people to follow their roles, yet I was kicked from a kin for expecting that. They all thought they were good because they have all this fancy gear, yet didn't have anything to practice on.
When my friend was learning how to tank on one of her alts, we ran CoS tons of times, yet only got rewards for one of the runs. Yes, we weren't doing it for the rewards, but I wanted something to show for it, maybe a scroll of empowerment, maybe some ash, it's not hard to reward people for doing the content, whether its the first or the 50th time. The problem isn't jealousy, because a player who bought their gear will do much worse in a raid/instance than someone who worked for it. It isn't jealousy, its just an expectation that people know what to do. And just because you make it 115/120 levels, doesn't mean you actually know how to play your class in a group setting. Having minstrels not targeting people when they are healing because they are targeting the boss, having hunters use rain of arrows because theres mulitple mobs, having tanks not holding aggro because they dont understand tanking.... but hey, I have the gear so I must be good? Right?

And to address and earlier point from you, having locks actually separates the playerbase, it doesn't bring us together. If I get a chance to log in earlier than my friend A, I decide to run with friend B, friend A logs on later and asks if I can run X instance, but I have to tell him I cannot, because Friend A needed my help and I now have locks. I would love to help out, but then I'd be taking someones spot who needs the chest. It'll constantly be Thrang 4/6 need tank and heals because no tank/healer will want to run for nothing.

[Fingerz]

Let me try and explain it this way (Hard core competitive raider perspective incoming):

It doesn't really matter if a casual player can obtain the best ingame loot for t1's, boxes or whatever, BUT if a casual player can obtain this stuff then so too can a hard core player, and this is (for me) where the problem lies. As I'm sure you know, there are a large number of kins who plan on competing against each other to see who can be the first ones to clear the new raid. Allowing for THE BEST gear to drop from boxes (irregardless of how low the drop chance is, or if its RNG), t1, or anywhere outside of the harder content creates a problem where people can essentially pay for competitive advantages against other players.

An alternative perspective is that some people have a different worldview, one where hard work is rewarded, one you clearly don't share. Is it jealousy if a person thinks you should have to work hard if you want to be able to afford a Rolls Royce?Don't kid yourself about jealousy. If I wanted to I could drop $500 into this game the moment U23 came out and hand out keys and boxes to myself and everyone else on my raid team, but I don't want to do that. I shouldn't have to do that. It's an obvious attempt at a money grab by SSG.

Respectfully, enough of the hardcore raider/casual stuff now, it's muddying the waters of the real issues at hand

[MAWorking]

Let me try and explain it this way (Hard core competitive raider perspective incoming):.... I shouldn't have to do that.

I get the desire to be first, though I personally have seen no real value (once again to me). Isnt a first title a vanity plate? The opposite of Jealousy?

I appreciate the point of view. Question though, why should 1 persons play style negatively impact another players play style? This question literally could be used either way.... boxes are bad and make me sad or boxes are good and make me happy.

I raid. I grind. I play everyday. But my "friends" are for the most part, casuals.
Im a lifer. Ive spent money on the game (keys) but I view that as a form of supporting a game I enjoy.

I think it might be fun if they could come up with a way to qualify a raid title? I hear ya that you do not want a group of rich kids beating ya... could there be a way to add a negative effect for loot box gear only on t2c or t3 (whatever is going to give the title, pretty sure it is t2c) until it has actually been completed by a group. A server challenge that actually impacts the server.

Just a thought.

[XbammyX]

I get the desire to be first, though I personally have seen no real value (once again to me). Isnt a first title a vanity plate? The opposite of Jealousy?

I appreciate the point of view. Question though, why should 1 persons play style negatively impact another players play style? This question literally could be used either way.... boxes are bad and make me sad or boxes are good and make me happy.

I raid. I grind. I play everyday. But my "friends" are for the most part, casuals.
Im a lifer. Ive spent money on the game (keys) but I view that as a form of supporting a game I enjoy.

I think it might be fun if they could come up with a way to qualify a raid title? I hear ya that you do not want a group of rich kids beating ya... could there be a way to add a negative effect for loot box gear only on t2c or t3 (whatever is going to give the title, pretty sure it is t2c) until it has actually been completed by a group. A server challenge that actually impacts the server.

Just a thought.

There's plenty of ways you could get around it, sure. Making box gear unusable is one way, but that would be even more massively unpopular. I know the idea of making a "window" of sorts where anyone who completes the raid on the highest difficulty (t3 is still, as of now, unconfirmed) gets the title has been thrown around, and the current number is something like 30 days. That's an option, and I quite like it as it echoes a similar scheme that BioWare implemented in Star Wars: TOR. Essentially, they have T3 (Nightmare) and for the first month of Dread Fortress and Dread Palace the raid was given a buff that made it even more difficult than Nightmare was already, and you had until the next update (~30 days) to clear it and be rewarded with an exclusive title that was never coming back. I think that's a pretty neat way of getting rid of the server first titles to lessen bickering between groups "stealing" titles, while also keeping the sense of accomplishment (what this is really about for me) and prestige (I suppose) that comes with the title.