End Game Loot, Lootboxes, Update 23, and Beyond

[Severlin]

Greetings,

I'm writing today to discuss changes we are making to end game loot, and how lootboxes relate to your gameplay. We have been paying close attention to high level gameplay and rewards, and are not entirely happy with the system in place. Now that we are increasing the level cap to 120 in Update 23: Where Dragons Dwell, it's a great opportunity to make some adjustments, and explain how things will work going forward.

We should reward you for playing the game. Progression should come from playing the game, first and foremost. Before I talk specifics, let's talk about our goals with the system, the rules under which we want to operate, and how lootboxes fit into that system:

1. There should be no gear in lootboxes that you don’t have a chance to acquire by playing the game. If gear is in a lootbox, it should also appear on a game vendor or as a reward for content within a short period of time.

2. On the day that new content is released, players should not be able to get the brand-new gear with end game currency or Store purchases. The initial rush of gear needs to come from playing the new content and getting rewards for completing it. As such, the vendors for gear and lootboxes will not appear until a few weeks after that content is released. The exact timing might also depend on how involved the content is.

3. Gear that comes from a new Raid at the highest difficulty, or the equivalent raid completion gated vendor, will always have more power than comparable gear that comes directly from lootboxes.

4. If gear comes from a raid, you need to complete the raid at least once before you can obtain the gear from a vendor using game currency. This remains unchanged.

The above should help you understand how we want loot to work in LOTRO, and set clear "meta rules" for the future. If we stray from this, let us hear it. Sometimes, especially in our preview environment, you'll see gear show up out of order, or see gear that doesn't have its power level set, but if you see something that isn't right, bring it to our attention so we can fix it.

Now, with all of this as the guideline, let's explain how our end game systems will work in Update 23!

Gear will be rewarded for running content while you level up to 120: from quests and deeds, reputation barter, instance chests, and from defeating bosses in the raid (which will be released later this year). In general, instance gear will be better than questing gear, raid gear will be better than instance gear, and content with higher tiers of difficulty will reward better gear than easier content. This is pretty much how things work now.

Our new currency for our end game in Where Dragons Dwell and beyond is Embers of Enchantment. Embers can be earned for doing weekly quests, and by deconstructing gear you don't want. This Disenchantment process may also be familiar to you, as it's what you've been doing with Ashes of Enchantment.

One big difference in U23 and beyond is we will reward Embers of Enchantment to you directly when you do endgame quests, rather than indirectly through lootbox keys. You'll accumulate enough Embers to buy the gear you want from a vendor. This helps fight random luck when trying to get the stuff you want. The Ember vendors won't have gear from the most recent end game group content until around two or so weeks after that content is released. So, the only way to get this gear when content is first released is to play the content. Finally, the vendor may have a requirement that you complete the content before you can pick any of the gear.

Older content will work on a similar system, with its own currency. Ashes of Enchantment are becoming Motes of Enchantment, and you'll earn new Motes of Enchantment by running older content. Older gear will also Disenchant to Motes of Enchantment, and Motes items will have their own vendors. Quests that used to bestow keys or key slivers will bestow Motes directly instead of Black Steel Keys.

How do lootboxes fit into all of this? Lootboxes will continue to appear in-game, and you can buy keys from the LOTRO Store to open them. They'll have cosmetics, gear – with identical gear available from the Ember vendors, and some Embers. The gear and cosmetics will be available on the Embers vendor at the same time it debuts in a lootbox. Both new lootbox items and new vendor items will arrive a few weeks or so after new content is released.

Lootboxes are not required to gear up, but can be used to help you catch up on gearing, and acquire cool new cosmetics. If you don't want to buy a key for a lootbox, you can instead run content to earn Embers for the items. We absolutely want to reward players who are awesome enough to support the long-term success of the game by opening lootboxes, and get joy in doing it, but we don't want players to feel like they are forced to open lootboxes in order to play or excel in the game.

We've been carefully reading your thoughts about lootboxes in recent months, and we've had a near-equal amount of discussion inside the office as well. We’re encouraged by your passion for the game, and want to make sure we support your decision to be here with us.

Sev~

[Cordovan]

We also wanted to apologize to our French and German players as we are not yet ready to post this in your language forums. We'll be publishing it in French and German as soon as we can.

[B749]

Thanks for the post Severlin.

So if I understand this all right:

• Lootboxes are staying, but they are no longer part of the actual endgame content (because dailies are no longer awarding keys or key slivers, and instead granting Embers or Motes directly). Running level 115 dailies to acquire level 120 gear is therefore not possible.
• We can no longer earn Black Steel Keys from dailies, we can only acquire them from the Store after U23 goes live. Keys acquired from dailies before the update will still be usable though?
• The Embers currency can be used to barter for all the new Lootbox rewards on a vendor, and eventually for instance/raid rewards as well -- though deed requirements may/will apply. Even players choosing not to participate in opening lootboxes (which will now require Store purchases) can still earn all of the rewards they offer.
• Level cap Lootboxes will still drop Embers, but will no longer be a path to instantly get the newest gear since a two-week (or so) time window between content release and vendor update will be enforced. Due to the previously mentioned vendor restrictions, getting the best gear without beating high difficulty versions of the content will be impossible alltogether.
• Old Lootbox rewards and gear will be available for Motes, which our current Ashes will be converted into and which we will acquire from running level 115 dailies or disenchanting non-level cap gear.

I'm carefully optimistic about this as it does sound good (allowing players who don't want to encounter Lootboxes ever again to just add them to their loot filter and ignore them alltogether without crippling their endgame experience by doing so). It does leave me with one major question though:

How will you handle updating Lootbox gear and its power in the dot updates? Say you release the gear at the item level you planned to during the last Bullroarer round (which was 370 I think, with the T1 instance rewards starting at 375), then you release the Raid a few months later with, say, level 390 gear in it. Will you update the Lootbox drops to a higher level then, essentially making them more powerful than the Instance rewards? You did this with the Mordor cluster and it made rewards from the Instances feel quite worthless due to them being weaker than Lootbox gear.

I hope this turns out well and appreciate the amount of thought you guys have put into it. It sounds like a big improvement over the level 115 endgame.

[HoboNanikin]

I'm super happy to read this. This is how I want to play Lotro and have wanted to for awhile. This is the news that we've all been waiting to hear!

[Artanisul]

As long as landscape questing isn't based on needing instance gear like it was in Mordor this sounds ok. Sad to see we can't get keys from quests anymore but glad it wont be needed, that lootboxes are just an extra thing. Thanks for looking into how it all worked before and fixing things.

[ChaChaLoco]

So not really toning down the pay-to-win gambling elements present in LotRO so much as making the difference between the aforementioned and actual, legitimate gameplay progression less egregious. Thanks, I guess?

[Bohdb]

For those who like the cosmetics and such in the lootboxes will there be a way to trade ash for keys?

[Cordovan]

Thanks for the post Severlin.

So if I understand this all right:

• Lootboxes are staying, but they are no longer part of the actual endgame content (because dailies are no longer awarding keys or key slivers, and instead granting Embers or Motes directly). Running level 115 dailies to acquire level 120 gear is therefore not possible.
• We can no longer earn Black Steel Keys from dailies, we can only acquire them from the Store after U23 goes live. Keys acquired from dailies before the update will still be usable though?
• The Embers currency can be used to barter for all the new Lootbox rewards on a vendor, and eventually for instance/raid rewards as well -- though deed requirements may/will apply. Even players choosing not to participate in opening lootboxes (which will now require Store purchases) can still earn all of the rewards they offer.
• Level cap Lootboxes will still drop Embers, but will no longer be a path to instantly get the newest gear since a two-week (or so) time window between content release and vendor update will be enforced. Due to the previously mentioned vendor restrictions, getting the best gear without beating high difficulty versions of the content will be impossible alltogether.
• Old Lootbox rewards and gear will be available for Motes, which our current Ashes will be converted into and which we will acquire from running level 115 dailies or disenchanting non-level cap gear.

I'm carefully optimistic about this as it does sound good (allowing players who don't want to encounter Lootboxes ever again to just add them to their loot filter and ignore them alltogether without crippling their endgame experience by doing so). It does leave me with one major question though:

How will you handle updating Lootbox gear and its power in the dot updates? Say you release the gear at the item level you planned to during the last Bullroarer round (which was 370 I think, with the T1 instance rewards starting at 375), then you release the Raid a few months later with, say, level 390 gear in it. Will you update the Lootbox drops to a higher level then, essentially making them more powerful than the Instance rewards? You did this with the Mordor cluster and it made rewards from the Instances feel quite worthless due to them being weaker than Lootbox gear.

I hope this turns out well and appreciate the amount of thought you guys have put into it. It sounds like a big improvement over the level 115 endgame.

Some of the terminology is a bit complex, but let me take a crack at answering you:

• Lootboxes are staying, but they are no longer part of the actual endgame content (because dailies are no longer awarding keys or key slivers, and instead granting Embers or Motes directly). Running level 115 dailies to acquire level 120 gear is therefore not possible.

Lootboxes may appear in endgame content, so I don't think that quite matches your description, but you are correct that end game content will not be awarding Keys, and will instead grant Embers that will be used to acquire items from a vendor when it is available. Yes, you will not be able to run under-level dailies to get level 120 gear.

• We can no longer earn Black Steel Keys from dailies, we can only acquire them from the Store after U23 goes live. Keys acquired from dailies before the update will still be usable though?

Yes, and yes, previously-acquired keys will still be usable on both the new and older lootboxes.

• The Embers currency can be used to barter for all the new Lootbox rewards on a vendor, and eventually for instance/raid rewards as well -- though deed requirements may/will apply. Even players choosing not to participate in opening lootboxes (which will now require Store purchases) can still earn all of the rewards they offer.

Yes and no, in that we intend to put gear available in a Lootbox on a vendor at the same time they are released, which will be a little while after content is released. We are, however, leaving open the possibility that we might want to put rare or special loot in content (like rare raid or Instance loot) that might not appear on a Motes or Embers vendor.

• Old Lootbox rewards and gear will be available for Motes, which our current Ashes will be converted into and which we will acquire from running level 115 dailies or disenchanting non-level cap gear.

Correct, your current Ashes will be converted to Motes, and Motes will be used to barter for older lootbox rewards and gear. In general, Motes will be available by running older content that used to provide Embers, but I don't think we want to get locked down forever on a specific 115 daily.

Added: On the second half of your post, regarding timing of lootbox items during point updates; the plan is to release items in content, then release it a few weeks or so later in lootboxes and vendor(s). So that will apply both to main updates and point updates.

[Cordovan]

For those who like the cosmetics and such in the lootboxes will there be a way to trade ash for keys?

No.

[cagedrage]

If all old daily quests will now award motes, is there any plans to increase the 10k cap?

[Darkdede]

Some of the terminology is a bit complex, but let me take a crack at answering you:

• Lootboxes are staying, but they are no longer part of the actual endgame content (because dailies are no longer awarding keys or key slivers, and instead granting Embers or Motes directly). Running level 115 dailies to acquire level 120 gear is therefore not possible.

Lootboxes may appear in endgame content, so I don't think that quite matches your description, but you are correct that end game content will not be awarding Keys, and will instead grant Embers that will be used to acquire items from a vendor when it is available. Yes, you will not be able to run under-level dailies to get level 120 gear.

• We can no longer earn Black Steel Keys from dailies, we can only acquire them from the Store after U23 goes live. Keys acquired from dailies before the update will still be usable though?

Yes, and yes, previously-acquired keys will still be usable on both the new and older lootboxes.

• The Embers currency can be used to barter for all the new Lootbox rewards on a vendor, and eventually for instance/raid rewards as well -- though deed requirements may/will apply. Even players choosing not to participate in opening lootboxes (which will now require Store purchases) can still earn all of the rewards they offer.

Yes and no, in that we intend to put gear available in a Lootbox on a vendor at the same time they are released, which will be a little while after content is released. We are, however, leaving open the possibility that we might want to put rare or special loot in content (like rare raid or Instance loot) that might not appear on a Motes or Embers vendor.

• Old Lootbox rewards and gear will be available for Motes, which our current Ashes will be converted into and which we will acquire from running level 115 dailies or disenchanting non-level cap gear.

Correct, your current Ashes will be converted to Motes, and Motes will be used to barter for older lootbox rewards and gear. In general, Motes will be available by running older content that used to provide Embers, but I don't think we want to get locked down forever on a specific 115 daily.

Added: On the second half of your post, regarding timing of lootbox items during point updates; the plan is to release items in content, then release it a few weeks or so later in lootboxes and vendor(s). So that will apply both to main updates and point updates.

So you want to tell us that we should already collect keys for the new content?
There are many people who have farmed many keys over time. These players would have a big advantage in the next update.

Isn't it possible to turn the old keys and key slivers into Motes of Enchantment?

[Hurin]

Gear that comes from a new Raid at the highest difficulty, or the equivalent raid completion gated vendor, will always have more power than comparable gear that comes directly from lootboxes.

Now we're talkin.'

I hadn't played much for months due to lootboxes. This could potentially change that.

--H

[gildhur]

This all sounds great, and a dramatic improvement over the current situation (which I didn't think was terrible to begin with - lootboxes were always optional and earnable by playing, not paying?).

BUT, this is the lynchpin (emphasis mine):

Our new currency for our end game in Where Dragons Dwell and beyond is Embers of Enchantment.

How far beyond?

With each expansion pack or level increase, we've been blessed with a new grand universal currency that was supposed to fix the loot system and make it last forever.

• Siege of Mirkwood brought skirmish marks, which were later subdivided with medallions and seals to reward group content better than solo, etc. SMs were supposed to be the last currency we'd ever need, providing gear and rewards for all levels to correspond with their scaling content. And they sort of do! Just not high end gear. But then...

• Helm's Deep brought epic battles and their Stars of Merit, which last all of 5 levels.

• Gondor brought Long-lost Coins, Gift-giver's Brands, and Morgul Crests, which are great for another 5 levels.

• Mordor brought Ashes of Enchantment, which now last only the 10 levels of Mordor itself.

• Now Where Dragons Dwell is already revamping Ashes into Motes just over a year after they were introduced and adding Embers of Enchantment for the next 5 levels.

Only question now is will it be 2019 or 2020 before we get a new endgame loot system that invalidates Motes, Embers, everything else we've collected to that date and leaves our barter wallet full of anachronistic currency?

I get that MMOs are a constant work in progress, but after 12 years of development and updates I hoped that you would have finally found a single sustainable reward system that can actually grow with us into future updates...like...legendary items?

[B749]

Some of the terminology is a bit complex, but let me take a crack at answering you:

Lootboxes may appear in endgame content, so I don't think that quite matches your description, but you are correct that end game content will not be awarding Keys, and will instead grant Embers that will be used to acquire items from a vendor when it is available. Yes, you will not be able to run under-level dailies to get level 120 gear.

Yeah that's pretty much what I meant, in the current endgame lootboxes are so deeply integrated that they basically became the dominant part of the non-group PvE experience. Glad to see that's no longer going to be the case. If we don't want to get lootboxes as drops from endgame NPC's, there are mechanics in the game that allow us to make sure we never see them again (Loot filters ).

Yes, and yes, previously-acquired keys will still be usable on both the new and older lootboxes.

Thanks for the clarification.

• The Embers currency can be used to barter for all the new Lootbox rewards on a vendor, and eventually for instance/raid rewards as well -- though deed requirements may/will apply. Even players choosing not to participate in opening lootboxes (which will now require Store purchases) can still earn all of the rewards they offer.

Yes and no, in that we intend to put gear available in a Lootbox on a vendor at the same time they are released, which will be a little while after content is released. We are, however, leaving open the possibility that we might want to put rare or special loot in content (like rare raid or Instance loot) that might not appear on a Motes or Embers vendor.

Yeah I meant all the Lootbox rewards would be available on a vendor, not necessarily that all Instance/Raid rewards would be available on a vendor. I'm a big fan of rare exclusive Instance/Raid drops! Especially if they have some kind of story significance *looks at MoL in anticipation*

[...] In general, Motes will be available by running older content that used to provide Embers, but I don't think we want to get locked down forever on a specific 115 daily.

Yeah, I assume once the cap moves on beyond 120 you'd make the lvl120 endgame drop Motes as well and move forward like that. Motes = for old stuff, Embers = for current endgame. Point taken!

Added: On the second half of your post, regarding timing of lootbox items during point updates; the plan is to release items in content, then release it a few weeks or so later in lootboxes and vendor(s). So that will apply both to main updates and point updates.

Yeah I understood that, the thing that's not clear to me is if you'll allow the Lootbox items to become more powerful than, say, T3 Instance rewards once you release the raid (or two weeks after you release the raid, point being, allowing Lootbox gear to become stronger than T3 Instance rewards). In the Mordor endgame, this happened; Instances on t2 and t2c dropped item level 330 gear -- then once the Raid was released (which had loot in it ranging from level 337 to 345) the Lootbox gear was updated to level 337, becoming stronger than Instance rewards.

Basically my question is: will you maintain the following progression in item levels (which seems to be suggested in the current post):

Landscape/Quest/Low tier Instance gear --> Lootbox gear --> Highest tier Instance gear --> Raid gear

...or will you once again make it...

Instance gear --> Lootbox gear --> Raid gear

...like it became with Update 21.3? The only clear point made on this in Sev's post is that Raid gear will always be stronger than Lootbox gear, but nothing is said specifically about Instance gear.

[Oddessia]

Wait, so they are removing keys?

Oohhh I dont like that at all. Reason being - I can easily open 5 lootboxes a day after a mere 90 minutes of playing and have good chances of things I really like dropping: Pets, cosmetics. I NEVER barter for those 'fluff' things with ash - cause I find that to be a waste. I barter for gear with ash.

So now Ill have to grind motes/embers to barter for gear AND all the extra stuff? Unless the quests reward an absolute ton of motes/embers...this seems to me to be even more grindy than before. I love getting 'free' fun things from lootboxes, I love how easy keys are to get. I dont like this change at all.

If the prices on cosmetics, pets and all "non-gear" barter items are as ridiculous in the new area as they are now....there goes all those items for me. Where as I could get em easily after 15 min of dailies per toon ONE time, now Ill have to do dailies for weeks to barter for fluff things? Nah, Im not a fan.

That all said, of course "fluff things" come in secondary to gear importance (at least for me) but with the key method I was able to get both across all alts very easily. In fact I always had "too much" ash...and thats after bartering for the NS gold essences. Ash was never hard to get, in fact this is the easiest time Ive ever had gearing my toons and I loved it. 0 store or AH purchases. Keys galore. To me this new way sounds more grindy, more limiting and more expensive to obtain the "fun" items than before. Too bad

I know its not a popular opinion but ./shrug, there it is anyways.

[SkyWarpPro]

Will keys randomly drop in landscape like the older keys do? I like the older system of keys and lootboxes, so I am hoping so. Will there still be lootboxes with keys available from meta deeds in new areas?

[Vilan]

Is there any particular reason ashes are being renamed to motes? It seems like there are two new currencies, motes and embers, but motes are really just ashes 2.0. Couldn't we just leave them named as ashes?

[Hurin]

If the choice is between a game with (more) integrity where the best gear can't be bought or gambled for. . . but every "pull of the lever" for those who want to gamble for lesser things is paid for in cash. . . versus a game where the best gear can be won through gambling but this is rationalized/mitigated (only partially) by making "pulls of the lever" available through gameplay (eg., dailies for keys). . . I am firmly in favor of the former (keys only in the Store, best loot only through beating hardest content). Primarily because this, as proposed, insulates the designs for how the best gear/loot is obtained from the Store's influence. Ie., the designers are less likely to cater those designs and loot payout thresholds towards driving their players to despair (and thus, to the cash shop).

--H

[Vilan]

2. On the day that new content is released, players should not be able to get the brand-new gear with end game currency or Store purchases. The initial rush of gear needs to come from playing the new content and getting rewards for completing it. As such, the vendors for gear and lootboxes will not appear until a few weeks after that content is released. The exact timing might also depend on how involved the content is.

3. Gear that comes from a new Raid at the highest difficulty, or the equivalent raid completion gated vendor, will always have more power than comparable gear that comes directly from lootboxes.

What I'm hearing is that 2 weeks after the raid comes out, everyone will be standing around in T2 raid gear they got from opening lootboxes. But don't worry, the T3 raid gear, which is 2 item levels higher and gives another +8 vitality, will be locked behind the raid, so everything is hunky dunky. Meh.

[Vastin]

BUT, this is the lynchpin (emphasis mine):


With each expansion pack or level increase, we've been blessed with a new grand universal currency that was supposed to fix the loot system and make it last forever.

Heh. It's unlikely we'll achieve a 'universal' currency at any particular point, and to be honest that isn't really our goal.

Alas, keeping MMO currencies from inflating and devaluing over time is a surprisingly difficult feat given that we don't have the checks and balances of supply and demand or any kind of currency value anchors that you might see in the real world - heck, keeping real-world currencies balanced is a bit of a trick, as anyone who likes to keep track of such things is likely aware.

Honestly the only MMO I know of that even tries to maintain something approaching a single stable currency is EVE, and they claim to have to keep economists on staff to achieve it, which is cool, but it's not the focus of a game like LOTRO.

So as much as we'd like some currency or other to be a stable and enduring thing forever, that's not generally how it works. But it would certainly be nice if this one lasted a good while? We shall see how it goes.

-Vastin

[dselden]

If the choice is between a game with (more) integrity where the best gear can't be bought or gambled for. . . but every "pull of the lever" for those who want to gamble for lesser things is paid for in cash. . . versus a game where the best gear can be won through gambling but this is rationalized/mitigated (only partially) by making "pulls of the lever" available through gameplay (eg., dailies for keys). . . I am firmly in favor of the former (keys only in the Store, best loot only through beating hardest content). Primarily because this, as proposed, insulates the designs for how the best gear/loot is obtained from the Store's influence. Ie., the designers are less likely to cater those designs and loot payout thresholds towards driving their players to despair (and thus, to the cash shop).

--H

Agreed, although I'm skeptical there will end up being much of a difference in the end considering the route the game has gone over the past couple of years.

[Siddharta]

What I'm hearing is that 2 weeks after the raid comes out, everyone will be standing around in T2 raid gear they got from opening lootboxes. But don't worry, the T3 raid gear, which is 2 item levels higher and gives another +8 vitality, will be locked behind the raid, so everything is hunky dunky. Meh.

This is what i want to ask too.
How much ilvl difference between lootbox and instance gear affects character stats? From what I saw, the difference between lootbox gear and t2 gear for example is not that noticeable.
So i can use ilvl 370 gear and still have ~the same stats as players who run t2 or t3.

I mean when you say 'Best in Slot gear' , there must be something more than +30 stat, idk maybe some noticeable scaling class bonuses or scaling % of damage\inc healing\outgoing healing\bpe\damage reduction etc.

[CloudCastle]

Are ALL keys being removed as loot drops from the game? As in, no more "free" keys to open all those boxes that drop below level 115?

As someone who is not interested in buying keys, this would mean that I would never open a lootbox again. This is kind of a shame, because opening the occasional lootbox was actually fun.

I'm also in agreement with Oddessia that having the chance to "win" cosmetics and horses was fun, but grinding for them...especially if the cost is prohibitive...is not. I've only ever opened 3 end game boxes, but I enjoyed being surprised with a white peahen. And I was hoping that someday I'd even get a chance at the horse box.

Greetings,

Finally, the vendor may have a requirement that you complete the content before you can pick any of the gear.

Sev~

I think you were talking about instance and raid gear here, but just to check...solo players will still be eligible to purchase some gear with embers too, right? ALL gear won't be locked behind completing instances and raids? I may not group, but I still enjoy improving my character, especially when it's been needed lately just to get through the recent landscape content. It would be no fun at all to earn embers but not be allowed to spend them. (And sometimes people prefer to gear their characters better just so they CAN be accepted in groups to begin with.)

[Larurien]

4. If gear comes from a raid, you need to complete the raid at least once before you can obtain the gear from a vendor using game currency. This remains unchanged.

This worries me a lot, because the player that does the raid once will not need to do it again. This ends up reducing the number of players who want to do the raid, which badly impacts the servers where the population is small or has few tanks, supports and healers.

[Geventh]

Remove Ash or whatever currency you get from lootboxes.
It SHOULD NOT be VIABLE to open hundreds of boxes and profit every time regardless what else you get.

Why not add cosmetics and lesser gear to the store directly? Makes much more sense than trying to *accidently* sneak in BiS gear every 2-3 months.
Even if they are not BiS the difference would be neglectable with like 5 ilvl difference. All an excuse to divert us from the actual problem....

I won't support this by not bothering to play this update.