Bullroarer Update 23 Preview #5: Feedback Thread

[Drizzels]

Our warden was doing 170-200k dps on solo and up to 300k AoE, i don't play warden so i can't comment what's exactly is wrong with this class now

Any screenshot/videos for that? i would indeed like to see a warden doing 170-200k st dps on 1 target without using the old set bonus.
If that is really the case they should change something asap but so far i heavly doubt that.


Edit: What is wrong with the moral pools if you do several 100k dps with your grp?
Even without a warden (lets say champ,burg,hunter,capt) you got 200k+ grp dps, so npc moral should be 10 million each or more, while bosses should have several 100 million moral then!!!!

[Siddharta]

Even without a warden (lets say champ,burg,hunter,capt) you got 200k+ grp dps, so npc moral should be 10 million each or more, while bosses should have several 100 million moral then!!!!

For fun sake, i hope Pinion will make such changes for 1 day, just to see Drizzles group fighting through instance for 20 hours

[Drizzels]

For fun sake, i hope Pinion will make such changes for 1 day, just to see Drizzles group fighting through instance for 20 hours

Better that then getting the content done on the release day i assume
And i know this is only t2 and not t3 but still it shouldnt be that easy that you can zerg the bosses down.
In generel difficulty shouldnt come over moral and mostly not about the dmg the bosses do but about interesting and challenging mechanics.
AND THEY DO LACK HERE!

[Siddharta]

Better that then getting the content done on the release day i assume
And i know this is only t2 and not t3 but still it shouldnt be that easy that you can zerg the bosses down.
In generel difficulty shouldnt come over moral and mostly not about the dmg the bosses do but about interesting and challenging mechanics.
AND THEY DO LACK HERE!

Beta5 Trash morale pools only make instance boring not hard.
As you can see i'm mostly talking about trash state.
I'm ok if 4-boss instance lasts for 60 minutes on T2 and 70-80m on T3 (also considering if loot is nice). BUT NOT MORE. I don't want to spend 2-3 hours for 1 run.
As you can see i'm not complaining about bosses HP\mechanics\difficulty. I'm complaining about overall duration of the instance which is caused by high trash morale pools .

Mechanics is what makes instance interesting\hard, not HP amount. And as i said before i will give a feedback about this later if will be able to run the whole instance.

[Oelle]

morale of enemies too low -> mobs die too fast to use mechanics they are supposed to use
morale of enemies too high -> nothing exciting happens anymore (everything happened already), fights get boring

damage of enemies too low -> nothing exciting happens, fights get boring
damage of enemies too high -> people die and need to kite instead of using tanks/healers

the middle ground needs to be found. Enemies need to live long enough to be a threat with the mechanics they have, but not too long to get boring
Damage needs to be high enough to have a reason to take tanks/healers into group-instances, nothing more

what should make fights interesting besides these basics are mechanics

[Cordovan]

We will be looking further into balance based on your feedback from preview #5. Any further balance-related feedback is much appreciated.

[Drizzels]

We will be looking further into balance based on your feedback from preview #5. Any further balance-related feedback is much appreciated.

make sure to look at the broken stuff with the scaling System and the stats.

With a bit more testing i can say that @Siddharta is Right About Wardens.

Borur scored a devastating hit with Surety of Death on Gigabyte for 136,715 Light damage to Morale and that was solo in pvmp.
I can easy imagine 200-300k dots in an instance with some support up. Looks like every time you Level a warden the whole class is ####ed up...

[NavarreBlood]

On my lvl 115 minstrel on BR:

Skills:
Call of Orome gives -16544 light mitigation
Timeless Echoes of Battle gives -8484 target song and cry resist.

Legendary legacies: (at lvl 74)
Target resist rating (call to war skills) -7800
Target resist rating (ballads) -7800

The problem is acute for minstrels because after clearing lvl 115 school all except final boss I noticed that against the first two bosses I'm doing 35.5% less dps than against the signature and normal uruks and dunlending. Presumably this is due to much higher mitigations on elite+ monsters. While monster mitigations have greatly increased since level 105, the mitigation debuff skills of minstrels (and probably many other classes) have not kept pace.

From my school 115 beta #5 minstrel dps test:
Avg dps for non bosses (signatures and normals): 17435.86
avg dps for 2 bosses: 11245.5 (64.5% of non-boss dps or 35.5% lower dps)

My stats: finesse 50%, crit 30%, crit magnitude 75.3%, tac mastery 217%. There really isn't anything I can do to increase these numbers, except possibly find a way to stack more crit for the crit magnitude increase. So better gear isn't the answer.

Minstrel is either the lowest or 2nd lowest sustained dps class in game with cappy. Many of these observations & recommendations could apply to cappy & cappy skills & legacies as well.

Increasing mitigation debuffs will not make minstrels op, but will allow dps minstrels to deal with PvE content that is in the new area - for example all the mini bosses and bosses in thikil-gundu solo are elite or greater. Dps should also be increased just to catch up with the lowest other non-dps classes. Same could probably can be said of cappy dps though I don't have numbers for that.

Recommendation: (please scale based on actual monster mitigation values)
Increase both skill mitigation debuffs by a factor of 5.
Increase Legendary legacies target resist debuffs by a factor of 5.
Increase base dps by 50% - even with this minstrel will be last or 2nd to last of all classes for dps.
Also look at increasing cappy base dps and cappy mitigation debuffs by a similar amount to bring these two classes more into balance with every other class.

To all those worrying about what this will do to class balance, even after this change, it is likely that minstrel and cappy would both be the two lowest dps classes in game by quite a bit. Thanks for your consideration.

[Pavlin]

Morale pool difference at the very least



Our warden was doing 170-200k dps on solo and up to 300k AoE, i don't play warden so i can't comment what's exactly is wrong with this class now

Doing 200k dmg on what ? Galtrev dummies ? Right.
I dont care about aoe/ on aoe you can cheat with dmg/
Because of bs talk like yours we have broken classes at release.
Prove with video or go home

[flirtswithmediocrity]

1. character stat changes are okay

I thought the character ratings we're already good with build #4. There was lots of room to cap ratings, but capping a single rating or two seemed possible. Plenty of rating room to grow with future gear. The big change with build #5 is that mitigations dropped about 7%. This generated a noticeably different amount of mob damage. In build #4 I was able to solo t1 3man level Caverns but not anymore. I am interested to try the t2 level for instances now.

2. Champ animation skill delay while redline traited and dual wielding is still broken

Please fix this. It has been noted by 3 different posters on this forum.

[DisplTru]

[...] now there is literally no question that odyssy is gonna get world first since there are literally 0 hard core raiding kins out there.

How do you know?

[Oelle]

Looks like every time you Level a warden the whole class is ####ed up...

Thats because lightdots only scale with level (and some legacies) and are not based on any weapon rating. The same is true for Cunning Attack on Burglars and LM pets.
That way of scaling is quite nice for those classes as they dont have to gather crystals for dps that much... but it comes with balance issues, because the scaling formulas change so often.

[zipfile]

How do you know?

Cause pretty much every other kin abandoned the game?

Faded is out, Fashion Police is dormant, top leaders Raging Raiders are now in other MMOs...
On Arkenstone, there's maybe 3 kins left that do organized Abyss runs, out of which R&U is the most competent.

So, yeah...that's about it.

[Drizzels]

Cause pretty much every other kin abandoned the game?

Faded is out, Fashion Police is dormant, top leaders Raging Raiders are now in other MMOs...
On Arkenstone, there's maybe 3 kins left that do organized Abyss runs, out of which R&U is the most competent.

So, yeah...that's about it.

Just because arkenstone lost a few raid kins that doesnt mean that there are not enough others on the remainign servers.

Specially on the eu servers i know a lot of raid kinds/alliances who will play with u23.(lets say around 20 kins on the 5 eu servers and quite a few on the other 4 na servers)

[zipfile]

Just because arkenstone lost a few raid kins....

But the potential drama we lost is irreplacable...

[Seodric]

We will be looking further into balance based on your feedback from preview #5. Any further balance-related feedback is much appreciated.

The stats now are a REAL MESS. Something profoundly went wrong..... This is worse than BR patch 4, and worse than it is on live, which was, afterall, ok. Old stats fitted instance scaling ..... WHich can't be said for instances now + landscape.






1314 mastery from Might/Will/Agility Essences, and 12487 mastery from Mastery Essence. (Almost 10x the amount.)
1642,5 crit from Fate essence, and 9249 from Critical Rating essence.


- Even if Agility/Might/Will still provided 8 mastery per 1 mainstat, the new mastery essences would outperform them by loads.


Here's some examples from other levels, showing the exact same problem, with mastery and crit outperforming mainstat:








Compare that now to what the ratings are on live, with 8 mastery from each might:



3128 mastery from old Might/Will/Agility Essences vs 4198 from a Mastery Essence. (This is balanced since it gives room for the other stats might gives like parry/block.





Recap: All mastery and crit stats through every levelcap are wayyyy too strong, OR mainstat too weak. It simply makes huge disparities on pieces that has crit/mastery vs fate/mainstat. The problem isn't only for essences. Every gear piece, every essence, where crit and mastery contributes as pure stat, are too strong compared to Mainstat and fate. Same with difference on gearpieces that has essence slot, and not. Essence slotted pieces will outperform non-essence slottedpieces by XX amounts.


EDIT: Bullroarer update #5 also has huge imbalance, freeps got way stronger because of boosted essences, while creeps lost nearly all their scaling from BR patch #4, and is now really weak and gets oneshotted easy by burgs and hunts at masterycap. Bullroarer #4 was fine in moors, Bullroarer #5 is a total mess where creeps get oneshotted left and right. Even worse than on live.

Hunter hit: Bretle scored a critical hit with Heart Seeker on Yourmama for 309,859 Beleriand damage to Morale. Element scored a critical hit with Heart Seeker on Gigabyte for 280,160 Beleriand damage to Morale.

Warden hit (as we all know warden does bleeds): Borur scored a critical hit with Light Damage over Time - Tier 4 on Gigabyte for 101,815 Light damage to Morale. Borur scored a critical hit with Light Damage over Time - Tier 3 on Gigabyte for 90,107 Light damage to Morale.

[Seodric]

3 mitted defi only has 25% beleriand mitigation with no other buffs, which resulted in a hunter doing 6k DPS with ONLY auto-attacks, and now when you add the other skills the creep will feel like a paperbag. Worst balance i've ever seen in moors.

Bretle scored a critical hit with Improved Merciful Shot on Zerosugar for 243,464 Beleriand damage to Morale.

[OOC] Mulatic: 'Bretle scored a critical hit with Barrage of Fire 3 on Mulatic for 236,550 Fire damage to Morale.'
[OOC] Mulatic: '3 tact mits'

Runboy scored a critical hit with Imp. Penetrating Shot: Pierce the Darkness on Gigabyte for 111,260 Light damage to Morale.

[Osglinthor]

Doing 200k dmg on what ? Galtrev dummies ? Right.
I dont care about aoe/ on aoe you can cheat with dmg/
Because of bs talk like yours we have broken classes at release.
Prove with video or go home

Cant talk about aoe but its probably possible with group buffs since i was doing close to half of that on 4 dummies pre these stat change.
And 170-200k St in group is doable https://imgur.com/a/dCOUczC here is 2 ~76k parses i did quickly.
How ever people and devs shouldnt jump to conclusions.This is result of last build stat changes and i doubt warden is the only problem.
And ofc this is done with 2 old setbonuses despite everyone stating for i dont know how many years those setbonuses need to change.

[Fraushgrish2]

Just because arkenstone lost a few raid kins that doesnt mean that there are not enough others on the remainign servers.

Specially on the eu servers i know a lot of raid kinds/alliances who will play with u23.(lets say around 20 kins on the 5 eu servers and quite a few on the other 4 na servers)

LOL a few we had 20+ raiding kins in ark before abyss

But ssg my balance advice is to revert everything back to the way it was in build 4 and simply bring down the crit cap to 90k that would fix everything I'm going online rn to do some more testing

[Osglinthor]

Thats because lightdots only scale with level (and some legacies) and are not based on any weapon rating. The same is true for Cunning Attack on Burglars and LM pets.
That way of scaling is quite nice for those classes as they dont have to gather crystals for dps that much... but it comes with balance issues, because the scaling formulas change so often.

Light dots do scale with Weapon dmg.This was changed recently.

[Gertes]

LOL a few we had 20+ raiding kins in ark before abyss

At lvl 105 with the Throne Raid, there were also way more pugs that searched in the World Chat. With Abyss i saw maby 20 Times someone searching for Abyss t2, over liek 6 Months. Compared to the every day Pugs at lvl 105. It seemed to me Abyss was to hard for the most casual Kins and world chat Pugs. That was also the result of just having 3 Bosses. Throne also had with Id2 and Id4 Fights that got avoided by most Kins (due to the difficulty).

But Abyss has with ID1 and ID3 Fights that seem to hard for the most Kins at t2cm (also Id2 was mostly to hard without beorninger).
This is maby also a point why we have fewer kins, nowadays.

I dont want to say, that content needs to get easier, there needs to be infect more content (instances/raidencounters), so the pool people can choose from is bigger. When we got 6 Bosses and 3 of them are doable for moot kins, and the 3 others just for more organised kins, Lotro will automatically see more people returning to the game and instances content.

Im also not a fan of designing instances to hard, its needs to be kind of challenging at first, but with good gear and more knowledge of the Instances. They should be more or less farm able. Imo Silent street and Quays of Harlond, had a good difficulty curve, also the osgiliath Instances. In the beginning there were quite hard but after 1-2 Months with the new Gear, you were able to farm them with random people from the chat. And by farming i dont mean that it was super easy (like samborg), but it was also not exhausting to run.

[DisplTru]

At lvl 105 with the Throne Raid, there were also way more pugs that searched in the World Chat. With Abyss i saw maby 20 Times someone searching for Abyss t2, over liek 6 Months.

Aren't you from Gwaihir? I see Abyss T2 groups looking fpr players almost every evening in Gwaihir LFF ...

I dont want to say, that content needs to get easier, there needs to be infect more content (instances/raidencounters)

Very true.

[Gertes]

Aren't you from Gwaihir? I see Abyss T2 groups looking fpr players almost every evening in Gwaihir LFF ...

Yes i am, but its always the same group who is looking for players (most likely Fair an Gwanna and Avorthalier), at lvl 105 so many different Kins and Pugs looked for People.

[Drizzels]

We will be looking further into balance based on your feedback from preview #5. Any further balance-related feedback is much appreciated.

I would like to but appearently br is going down right now...

[galrodan]

I'm just going to leave this here and let it speak for itself.

Reydlayn scored a critical hit with Improved Merciful Shot on Urunluk for 412,417 Beleriand damage to Morale.

Upscaled freeps are more broken than ever

Mulatic
R13 reaver
Arkstone