u23 PvP changes

[TronGilrain]

I would like to ask devs how they found this : "PvMP

Steadfast Barrage can no longer crit, as the description indicates."
to be only issue in pvp at the moment? We have freeps 1-2 shooting creeps. We have stealth freep damage not show in combat log. We have 40k per tick bleed from wardens.We have people exploiting terrain with double jumps. How did you guys found that barrage problem ? It's shooking.

[Fraushgrish2]

I would like to ask devs how they found this : "PvMP

Steadfast Barrage can no longer crit, as the description indicates."
to be only issue in pvp at the moment? We have freeps 1-2 shooting creeps. We have stealth freep damage not show in combat log. We have 40k per tick bleed from wardens.We have people exploiting terrain with double jumps. How did you guys found that barrage problem ? It's shooking.

I feel like we asked them to nerf barrage for hunters in the moors and they were like huh they must be talking about the BA skill \o/

[Dranak123]

I feel like we asked them to nerf barrage for hunters in the moors and they were like huh they must be talking about the BA skill \o/

that's all well and good but hold onto your hats....im interested in the graph of fell/wrought phys mits percentages. it sort of looks like tactical classes can cap tact mits ok. But everyone will struggle to get their non-common phys mits much above 20-25%. I do hope I am totally wrong. Champs Wargs and Reavers will have a field day.

[Insiladan]

Everything is ok with pvmp now on test. Plus-minus we finally have a balance. They don't write changes (dunno why), but creeps are much stronger now. Also thanks to decreasing mastery rating of freeps from 400% to 200%. Hope this build will go to live.
Ofc freeps will find new bugs to be stronger (someone told, that it was burg with 1 mill hp, lol), like it was always, but now we have what to say them (hope so). Will see.

[Fraushgrish2]

Everything is ok with pvmp now on test. Plus-minus we finally have a balance. They don't write changes (dunno why), but creeps are much stronger now. Also thanks to decreasing mastery rating of freeps from 400% to 200%. Hope this build will go to live.
Ofc freeps will find new bugs to be stronger (someone told, that it was burg with 1 mill hp, lol), like it was always, but now we have what to say them (hope so). Will see.

Yall know since creeps are good there are probably already plans to nerf the #### out of em right

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

Yall know since creeps are good there are probably already plans to nerf the #### out of em right

Freeps were allowed to godmode 1-shot everyone for over a year, I doubt creeps will be allowed to remain anywhere close to balanced past the next dot update (u23.1).


If I were to wager a guess, I'd say Wargs/Spiders getting nerfed into the ground and Burgs/Champs getting big buffs, and creep stats getting nuked to below the numbers currently on live.

[Fraushgrish2]

Freeps were allowed to godmode 1-shot everyone for over a year, I doubt creeps will be allowed to remain anywhere close to balanced past the next dot update (u23.1).


If I were to wager a guess, I'd say Wargs/Spiders getting nerfed into the ground and Burgs/Champs getting big buffs, and creep stats getting nuked to below the numbers currently on live.

I'll take that bet with anyone dumb enough to bet against it, I bet wargs get nerfed literally in 23.0.1, while burgs get buffed not only to just their regular rotation, but a buff to CDG as well cant have people walking around not one shooting! And also yes, I'm willing to say since everyone here is complaining about how "It's so difficult to cap mit and crit" that those essences are gonna get buffed so hard that creeps wont stand a chance

[Corwelleon]

I'll take that bet with anyone dumb enough to bet against it, I bet wargs get nerfed literally in 23.0.1, while burgs get buffed not only to just their regular rotation, but a buff to CDG as well cant have people walking around not one shooting! And also yes, I'm willing to say since everyone here is complaining about how "It's so difficult to cap mit and crit" that those essences are gonna get buffed so hard that creeps wont stand a chance

I’ll be the outlier here and disagree. I doubt the devs wake up each morning and ask themselves how much more badly they can screw-up the creeps... the single cause of the current bad situation was neglect. As they tinkered with freeps- with a goal to help them in raids and instances, the creeps just got left behind, again and again.

Recall the outcry got so loud, Vastin finally showed the Creeps some love and, although far from balanced, things did get better. So, we can continue to gnash our teeth and wail in the wilderness, but I doubt it was intentional. As for this update, as the devs balance (nerf) the Freep mastery to slow down their dps, the creeps simply benefit from this time... benign neglect.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

the creeps simply benefit from this time... benign neglect.

Creeps getting 1-shotted with 400k hits from hunters on BR, with most creep stats being worse at 120 than they are on live at 115.

Good one.

[wretchesandkings]

I’ll be the outlier here and disagree. I doubt the devs wake up each morning and ask themselves how much more badly they can screw-up the creeps... the single cause of the current bad situation was neglect. As they tinkered with freeps- with a goal to help them in raids and instances, the creeps just got left behind, again and again.

Recall the outcry got so loud, Vastin finally showed the Creeps some love and, although far from balanced, things did get better. So, we can continue to gnash our teeth and wail in the wilderness, but I doubt it was intentional. As for this update, as the devs balance (nerf) the Freep mastery to slow down their dps, the creeps simply benefit from this time... benign neglect.

It does make me wonder if the coding for npc directly affects creeps. If it’s separate, despite creeps being npc like, then that means someone must have changed creep stats manually this time.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

It does make me wonder if the coding for npc directly affects creeps.

This is correct.


What frustrates people is how easy a simple courtesy tweak of a few numbers would make the neglect slightly less painful....

... and how that hasn't been done, while any issue with freeps in the moors is jumped on ASAP, like the complaints with Eye Gouge....

[Hephburz-2]

This is correct.


What frustrates people is how easy a simple courtesy tweak of a few numbers would make the neglect slightly less painful....

... and how that hasn't been done, while any issue with freeps in the moors is jumped on ASAP, like the complaints with Eye Gouge....

Cord mentioned something earlier on stream - how they changed something with regular mobs (npcs) and it affected creeps because they run on the same systems. So I’m not sure it is a simple tweak, it looks like mobs and creeps run in unison, so the reason no drastic changes have ever happened is because it would massively screw over any pve?

[Riddim The Legend]

Cord mentioned something earlier on stream - how they changed something with regular mobs (npcs) and it affected creeps because they run on the same systems. So I’m not sure it is a simple tweak, it looks like mobs and creeps run in unison, so the reason no drastic changes have ever happened is because it would massively screw over any pve?

Then maybe it's time for Devs to work on creeps skills rather than whatever that is shared between NPCs and Creeps.

I cannot think of 1 NPC that might have the same skill that creeps have

Devs would just have to adjust damage outputs on creeps skills and update corruptions bonuses to something useful

[Hephburz-2]

Then maybe it's time for Devs to work on creeps skills rather than whatever that is shared between NPCs and Creeps.

I cannot think of 1 NPC that might have the same skill that creeps have

Devs would just have to adjust damage outputs on creeps skills and update corruptions bonuses to something useful

Creeps are based off session play instances, this is undeniable in how session plays are created and in turn how they mirror creeps. This is why creep corruptions often affect raw stats which are just +numbers and rather easy to implement. You can also just look at skills in certain session plays and look how they mirror creeps. The elf laeredan session play in volume 1 is almost identical in skills to the elf ranger the freeps have, as various evil session plays mirror creeps specifically reaver. Session play mobs are based off of NPCs when it comes to general coding / stats which is linked to the monster play system. So changing NPCs affects creeps.

But in total, yes, A VERY EASY FIX would be too simply buff corruptions for creeps + add a few more slots.

[Urundus]

Other than the already mentioned Skills, Corruptions and Racial/Class Traits that could get updated there's a lot more that could change without impacting NPC's at all.
There's an entire system already in place to give certain stats to Creeps, and we know they can be adjusted because Vastin worked on it a while ago.

The first ones are the so called ''Core Passive Skills''. These characteristics and their values are the same between creep classes, just the tier of each characteristic differs.



These numbers could get adjusted or even have more stats added to them.
On the Beta B/P/E and mitigations seemed fairly low, so an increase in Avoidance and Armour could be helpful.
It would make sense to add the stat Resistance to the Resistance characteristic, because currently both on Live and on the Beta, Resistance is 0%.
I could also see Incoming Healing getting linked to the Health characteristic. This way the stat can return without being dependant on your Rank, and will be solely based on the class you play.

The next one is called ''Advanced Passive Skills''. These are pretty much just passive stats that can be bartered for at a certain rank in exchange for commendations.



Other than the previously already mentioned increases in these stats, we could possibly also see more of these passives being added. It would be an easy way to distribute stats according to class, because (again) you could limit the amount of tiers a certain class could barter for. Thus they would only have to be created once and just set tier limits for each class.
For example, Finesse, Mastery, Resistance, B/P/E, and specific Mitigations is what I would like to see as passives.

This way Corruptions and Racial/Class traits could regain their role of slight tweaking and changing the way certain skills work, instead of providing our Creeps with core stats like it is now.
In the end it would also be easier to tweak Creepside in general, or specific Creep classes individually. Ratings on these characteristics or passives could be changed to affect the entirely of Creepside. For specific class tweaks the tier cap of those characteristics/passives could be increased or decreased.

[Hephburz-2]

There you go @Vastin. Theres your fix.

[Drizzels]

Make sure to convert physical and tactical mitigation to 1 corruption and not 2 different ones as we have it now.
This would fix a lot of stuff for the Mitigation problems.


Aswell really important: make sure that every creep got 15-25% base finsse. Finesse corruptions were a idiotic band aid fix with mordor release and nobody should be forced to Slot them!

[ChaChaLoco]

Probably better off just rebuilding Creeps from the ground up, separately from NPCs, etc. Failing that, just do what Urundus said please... and actually scale/rebalance (ideally as percentages to lower need to maintain) the racial/class traits and all the respective Creep buff pots.

Also, small quality of life change: can we get versions of the man/elf/dwarf/hobbit trackers that are reusable (but otherwise share the same CD) and cost like 1k comms to buy or something, so that I don't have to fill up my bags with these things (also change the stack cap for these from 20 to 500 too - do the same with all the pots, please). Heck I'd even be open to making the food items one-time reusables (probably leave the DoF and morale/power pots as consumables to give us something to spend comms on). Bit of a sidetrack (and minor issue) I know but getting sick of those damn trackers.

[Hephburz-2]

Probably better off just rebuilding Creeps from the ground up, separately from NPCs, etc. Failing that, just do what Urundus said please... and actually scale/rebalance (ideally as percentages to lower need to maintain) the racial/class traits and all the respective Creep buff pots.

Really doubt they have the team to undertake such a thing to completely rework creeps and break the shared systems with NPCs, we can only hope that one day.

But as mentioned, please just make DECENT changes to the corruptions to bring them into line with lv120, it is a very easy fix and can be given quick feedback!