Champion Feedback Thread

[Arandour]

Idk what you are doing but in the instances and raids we did on live and br red(or yellow red st) champs are doing about 70-80% of rk/hunter dmg.
For example: The Anvil T2 Boss 1:Champ:80-100k. Hunter:120-140k.Rk:110-130k
Tikil Gundu T2 Boss 1: Champ:50-60k Hunter:70-80k,Rk 70-80k


Of course there are a lot of melee unfriendly bosses and fights where you rather take a ranged class.

Your feedback is still not appropirate, neither on the champ class nor on the raid feedback thread where you just qq 24/7 while raids are able to implement champs very well.
I even gonna say that the higher the difficulty the more usefull a champ will get in some situations.

There is a lot melee unfriendly bosses?Since Mordor Most of the fights are semi melee unfriendly from trash to bosses and some completely unfriendly.When range dps stay back and dps without slotting even one mitigation essence we have to slot many cause we are in front line and above that we have the unfriendly mechanics.So even that wont help to achieve some decent stats or dps close to range classes.

My feedback is not appropriate?I dont care about your opinion or any others cause i dont write if forums for you i care about developers opinion i write directly to them so the champs can be useful again.I dont care to chit chat with you or any other in here if you want to talk to me sent pm in game.

You said that new raid can implement champs very well but before some time you and some other raid leaders said that it was completely unfriendly and if you had the choise you probably would left champs outside for range so deside plz is the new raid melee unfirendly or not?
The difference between champions-hunters and rks is still huge in single target and there is a problem.For example when i crit solo a skill for 80-90k with my champ and 170-180k with my hunter its more than 20% like you said.Anyway i am not here to argue with anyone i give my opinion so classes can be more balanced.

[Gertes]

I would like to add that both Champions and Hunter Dps Numbers are likely the result of mid fight weapon swapping.
What is another problem, the discrepancy between more "casual" champions compared to Rk/Warden gets even bigger.

Champion got a lot of good changes over the last patches, but i still think especially red needs more love (im not into blue^^ so im not arguing for it)

[Rollag3]

And with such low numbers they're not competitive. Especially with all the other disadvantages melee have and no aoe is really needed.
Why should I take someone who do 100k if I can take 140 k which get less dmg.

Try playing a burg with 20k single targ damage then stop crying about your champs dps

[Arandour]

Try playing a burg with 20k single targ damage then stop crying about your champs dps

You are completely out of subject burglars are debufers not dps and to be honest they do very good dps with the right setup for debufers.Ask the creeps that are going one shot from burglars at ettens to see if they have good dps or not...

[Mukor]

Try playing a burg with 20k single targ damage then stop crying about your champs dps

As arandour said, burgs are supporters they don't need to do dps.
We've three dpsing classes in th game, champs, hunters and rks.
And between then the melee (champs) are the worst and have additonal disadvantages for doing their job.

[Gertes]

Isnt Red Burglar Dps not on the same level as the red champion?
Red Burglar should be at least as high as red champion in my eyes and both schould be at least at the level of rk/Hunter (or higher)

[Maeg]

Everything has been said many times by Champions (and then contradicted often by trolls). But it's not a problem to repeat it once more.

1. Champions as dps

1.a. AOE dps is fine, but aoe is never reason enough to have a toon as main dps in a group. Single target dps is always preferable.
1.b. Champion's single target dps is poor when compared with the other dps classes, although it is not bad if compared with non-dps classes. But, of course, we need to compete for a dps spot with dps classes, not with non dps classes, so we have difficulties finding spots.

To this analysis we have to add another serious element, to fully understand the bleak situation of the Champion: for some unfathomably reason the mechanics of the instances are designed to be ranged dps friendly and melee dps unfriendly, so that Champions can never be 100% focused on dps, there's always need to move around pusuing targets beyond our reach or running away from damage, and to equip mitigations to survive the damage we take. Neither of these problems applies to ranged dps.

To sum up: Champion as a dps class is in a bad spot. Its relatively low dps makes it never necessary in an instance, never the prefered dps class; it is simply not needed as dps. The logical solution would be to increase single target dps when in red (hint: we have many bleeds, but they aren't independent. If every skill put an independent bleed, our dps would automatically increase).

2. Champions as tanks

They are without doubt the worst tank class in the game. Just check the Champions forums for more details (and also a recent discussion in the main thread for beta feedback), but in essence the problem has two reasons: low survivavility and poor aggro control.

There have always been Champions tanking (or trying) in the game. As our dps now is not competitive and there is always need for more tanks, some Champions turn naturally to our role as tanks, but we find out that we can't perform capably beyond 3 man instances tier 1 with the tools we have for tanking. Champions need a complete overhaul of the tanking line.

Final summary: not needed as dps and bad tanks, Champions feel left aside in instances.

[Arandour]

Everything has been said many times by Champions (and then contradicted often by trolls). But it's not a problem to repeat it once more.

1. Champions as dps

1.a. AOE dps is fine, but aoe is never reason enough to have a toon as main dps in a group. Single target dps is always preferable.
1.b. Champion's single target dps is poor when compared with the other dps classes, although it is not bad if compared with non-dps classes. But, of course, we need to compete for a dps spot with dps classes, not with non dps classes, so we have difficulties finding spots.

To this analysis we have to add another serious element, to fully understand the bleak situation of the Champion: for some unfathomably reason the mechanics of the instances are designed to be ranged dps friendly and melee dps unfriendly, so that Champions can never be 100% focused on dps, there's always need to move around pusuing targets beyond our reach or running away from damage, and to equip mitigations to survive the damage we take. Neither of these problems applies to ranged dps.

To sum up: Champion as a dps class is in a bad spot. Its relatively low dps makes it never necessary in an instance, never the prefered dps class; it is simply not needed as dps. The logical solution would be to increase single target dps when in red (hint: we have many bleeds, but they aren't independent. If every skill put an independent bleed, our dps would automatically increase).

2. Champions as tanks

They are without doubt the worst tank class in the game. Just check the Champions forums for more details (and also a recent discussion in the main thread for beta feedback), but in essence the problem has two reasons: low survivavility and poor aggro control.

There have always been Champions tanking (or trying) in the game. As our dps now is not competitive and there is always need for more tanks, some Champions turn naturally to our role as tanks, but we find out that we can't perform capably beyond 3 man instances tier 1 with the tools we have for tanking. Champions need a complete overhaul of the tanking line.

Final summary: not needed as dps and bad tanks, Champions feel left aside in instances.

Agree.

We are useful only for T1 instances and AOE thats it.Since Mordor In all other situations a range dps can do our job much better than we do."To can be done with a champ" and "a champ can be useful" is completely two different things.I want to be useful thats it and for this to be true then we need more friendly mechanics and more dps for single target.

PS:Some burglars come here to say what we need or not for champions class.What is your problem this thread is for champions class not burglars...

[Gertes]

If we just look at stats alone the champion is left behind.
Might is still a bad Mainstat compared to Will or Agi.
Will offers at least tactical Mitigation (what is useful in most instances)
And Agility is totally op, with offering besides Master/evade/parry also Critt, what is essential for a DPS class. (im still asking why the beo got crit on might and all other might classes not???)
To argue with tactical mastery is foolish, because its useless on Champions/Guards and non Healing Captains.

Also the might increase from yellow got useless with the massiv Mastery on mainstat nerf. For a short time (after the champion balance patch) this trait was finally good and got nerfed in the ground with u23 changes.
My suggestion, make Mainstat again more important, or change the trait to increase in physical mastery or crit. (Wardens got a similar trait but instead of main stat with phy Mastery, what makes it a good trait to pick)

The whole Problem is, champions are not equal in stats, and on top, they often need more mitigation then ranged classes, because of mele mechanics. What results in a huge stat different overall (sometimes hunters/rk can go full glass canon and a champion needs moral/mitigation to survive and ends up with worse dps stats)
I'm personally not against mele mechanics (besides stupid only mele suns in the new instances^^), but Mele classes should get certain benefits to justify anti mele mechanics.
Like a higher base DPS when standing still (compared to ranged dps), so it is room to equip mitigations and make up for the dps loss, from mele stuns, kiting etc.

[Mukor]

Other solution would be range penalities. As 150-200% range dmg reflects so they need to slow down their Rotation and lower with it their dps.

[Gertes]

Other solution would be range penalities. As 150-200% range dmg reflects so they need to slow down their Rotation and lower with it their dps.

Disagree

No one wants annoying mechanics, such as reflects.
Why would you give a class damage in the first place, just to prevent them in doing it to the fullest potential.

[Mukor]

Disagree

No one wants annoying mechanics, such as reflects.
Why would you give a class damage in the first place, just to prevent them in doing it to the fullest potential.

It's just an example to disadvantage range same as melee are. Another way for balancing.

[Gertes]

It's just an example to disadvantage range same as melee are. Another way for balancing.

I also would like to see equal mechanics for mele and ranged classes. But that would be a lot of extra work for the instance Designers.
Thats why in my opinion it is the easiest way to buff mele classes to a certain extend. 10% more DPS then an ranges dd should be enough to compensate for the need of more mitigations and mechanics.

[Mukor]

I also would like to see equal mechanics for mele and ranged classes. But that would be a lot of extra work for the instance Designers.
Thats why in my opinion it is the easiest way to buff mele classes to a certain extend. 10% more DPS then an ranges dd should be enough to compensate for the need of more mitigations and mechanics.

That would be fine too even better, but adding a range damage reflect is less work.
Or just adding mechanics for which aoe is needed and without it impossible.
A nice begining would be remove crit from agility and tac mit from will and vita for range.

[Arandour]

Other solution would be range penalities. As 150-200% range dmg reflects so they need to slow down their Rotation and lower with it their dps.

Well for now even the new 3 man instance have been destroyed for melees cause last boss have melee reflect,not for the range too but only for the melee.You see they love us.
Beleave me they dont give a damn about of what we say in here probably they dont even read any of the feedback that we give.Last chance to stay in this game under this company is the new raid that i will check tomorrow.If they didnt listen and they make it melee unfriendly again like anything else they did since Mordor then i am gone for sure this time...

[Wolf2x]

This argument about Burglar not needing very good red dps just because their main role is debuffing, goes off to show how little people know about class balance in other MMO’s

I mean, with that logic you could also say Champ’s main role is AoE DPS therefore it shouldn’t have very good ST dps

But no both needs their ST boosted regardless of how strong other trait lines are. Thats how it works in any serious MMO

[Arandour]

This argument about Burglar not needing very good red dps just because their main role is debuffing, goes off to show how little people know about class balance in other MMO’s

I mean, with that logic you could also say Champ’s main role is AoE DPS therefore it shouldn’t have very good ST dps

But no both needs their ST boosted regardless of how strong other trait lines are. Thats how it works in any serious MMO

If burglars want more dps i agree with them but i dont agree when they come here and say to not give more dps to champs on single cause probably they want to have the same or more.They can go to burglars thread and ask what they want from developers but not here.To point me of what i need for my class that i play main for 11 years now its not acceptable.

[Wolf2x]

If burglars want more dps i agree with them but i dont agree when they come here and say to not give more dps to champs on single cause probably they want to have the same or more.They can go to burglars thread and ask what they want from developers but not here.To point me of what i need for my class that i play main for 11 years now its not acceptable.

I agree with you on that Champ ST needs a boost. But why don’t you move on to more viable classes if/when devs don’t give the required boost?

[Aleziana]

I agree with you on that Champ ST needs a boost. But why don’t you move on to more viable classes if/when devs don’t give the required boost?

Moving into a new class is not the solution. First of all we want to enjoy the game and the game needs to offer balance to its classes. For example i m also main champion and roling a hunter just because they have more damage it doesn't makes me enjoy the game i personally do not find fun sitting back and shooting arrows its 100% boring for my play style. Also i realy do not understand why swords don't make more damages than arrows. I believe that hunters and champios ST should have same damage and their only difference is the one class is range and one melee and you choose them for different maneuvers during the fights. That is why hunters have medium armor because they stay away from the main fight and champions go in the front line and they need heavy armor to survive.

[Arandour]

Moving into a new class is not the solution. First of all we want to enjoy the game and the game needs to offer balance to its classes. For example i m also main champion and roling a hunter just because they have more damage it doesn't makes me enjoy the game i personally do not find fun sitting back and shooting arrows its 100% boring for my play style. Also i realy do not understand why swords don't make more damages than arrows. I believe that hunters and champios ST should have same damage and their only difference is the one class is range and one melee and you choose them for different maneuvers during the fights. That is why hunters have medium armor because they stay away from the main fight and champions go in the front line and they need heavy armor to survive.

Agree.Champions ST damage should be the same or even more than hunters and even then hunters will do more dps cause they stay behind most of the times without even slot one mitigation essence and without have to deal with unfriendly melee mechanics like puddles etc.They focus to only one thing to dps we focus to dps and to survive.

I love dps classes and i have all 3 of them raid ready but if the champions class wasn't in game i would probably had quit long time ago.Its my first character that i create and i am in love since today cause my play style and my character fits with that class.So to change my main is not an option.I didnt change my main for 11 years so i wont do it now.Its easy for developers to not put unfriendly melee mechanics and to give us some more single target dps and i wonder why they keep punishing us.

.

[Mukor]

This argument about Burglar not needing very good red dps just because their main role is debuffing, goes off to show how little people know about class balance in other MMO’s

I mean, with that logic you could also say Champ’s main role is AoE DPS therefore it shouldn’t have very good ST dps

But no both needs their ST boosted regardless of how strong other trait lines are. Thats how it works in any serious MMO

This argument would count if aoe is needed, but atm aoe is far from a must have it's not even more a nice to have.

[Arandour]

This argument would count if aoe is needed, but atm aoe is far from a must have it's not even more a nice to have.

Agree and i sow it again today to new Anvil raid.All bosses single target,unbelievable ...

[Justapvpdude]

Agree and i sow it again today to new Anvil raid.All bosses single target,unbelievable ...

2nd boss fight is ST?

Ok...

[Arandour]

2nd boss fight is ST?

Ok...

Yes it is at least for T1 tonight i will try T2 to see what happens.4 bosses running around in all area ping pong between 2 tanks all over the place one here one there so what you expect me to do go aoe and hit the air?I went single and follow rat.

[Maeg]

I want to present two hypotetical situations. I think that they're rather self explanatory.

SITUATION 1

Player: "Thanks for the invite to the raid. By the way, I see there are many spots still open and I have a Hunter kinnie who is interested, can he come?"
Raid Leader: "A Hunter? Sure!, we need DPS!"
P: "Great! But, you see, now I have another Hunter kinnie, can he come too?"
RL: "Sure! Two Hunters better than one. After all, we do have to kill the damn monsters, don't we?"

//

SITUATION 2

Player: "Thanks for the invite to the raid. By the way, I see there are many spots still open and I have a Champion kinnie who is interested, can he come?"
Raid Leader: "A Champion? Is he any good? Well, it's true, we have many spots open and probably a Champion could be useful. Ok let's invite him."
P: "Great! But, you see, now I have another Champion kinnie, can he come too?"
RL: "Oh! Sorry, I'm afraid we need to think about the balance of classes in a raid. No, we already have a Champion, so this is covered. We need now other classes."