@Cordovan @Devs - Original Challenger being removed in new raid: Please reconsider (T3)

[Unknowned]

LoTRO has very little of competion in terms of PvE raids, but every year almost every raiding kinship gathers their members to come back and fight for this title, which players value more then anything in PvE content.
Original Challenger has large impact on raiding community and please reconsider to add it into this raid, or in different form of displaying respect to server first.
Original Challenger being removed in the new raid is not a good idea for a healthy progression of the new raid.

If you are afraid that someone will transfer to other server for the title, make the title server bound (meaning if someone transfers he can't claim it)
If you don't like Original Challenger the way it is, create a new title.

There can be a new title, displaying that this particular group of players has completed the raid server first, or sort of achievement (deed) like in WoW progression of realm first. Removing the OC title will eliminate the last small feeling of achievement lotro has in term of competitive raiding because there will not be any difference between a kin who finished it first and a kin who finished it last as long as you got it during that "time limit"

EDIT: i am only talking about tier 3 raid.

[Mukor]

Since the raid is this long on the beta the title is just about which raid community can run first after the release.
Mechanics are known, nobody has to develope the tactics etc.
So the title says only we're the lucky ones with the most time to play.

[Unknowned]

Since the raid is this long on the beta the title is just about which raid community can run first after the release.
Mechanics are known, nobody has to develope the tactics etc.
So the title says only we're the lucky ones with the most time to play.

tier 3 was not on beta, and i doubt they will be any BR for t3. so it won't be just who logs faster will get the OC.

[Demosthenes11]

Since the raid is this long on the beta the title is just about which raid community can run first after the release.
Mechanics are known, nobody has to develope the tactics etc.
So the title says only we're the lucky ones with the most time to play.

Exactly.

------------------

To be honest there's no such thing as progression, not technically or essentially speaking, when raid is being beta tested first hand by the very same players who are the most interested in racing for any respective reward. Till SSG decides and manages to have their own staff test their product -as had been the case for older raids, there can be no realistic discussion regarding end-game competition and any progression related rewards will continue to server merely as raider candy to mainly attract the exact players that are mostly interested in showing off their accomplishments for the shake of showing off. That appears to be the marketing side of it. Original Challenger as things stand for the passed couple of raid updates is a fancy, but vacuous notion. Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying it's not well deserved nor unfairly awarded for the people reaching for it. Anyone can join beta to help spot bugs and offer feedback, while -inevitably- learning his way around the given encounters. I'm only saying it actually reflects peoples' -much appreciated and apparently needed- contribution to development rather than the outcome of healthy progression. As long as it continues to be falsely viewed as such, it's only going to keep producing drama on the forums and in-game, which ironically enough makes it the opposite of healthy.

[Mithrandir1903]

Signed

I was so excited about upcoming raid. Eventhough I don't plan to get title, it is good to see kins competing for that. Now I feel like I don't care about raid. It is like new instance coming not raid.
It looks small issue for non raiders, but for raiders it means a lot. Pls consider that again.

[Mukor]

tier 3 was not on beta, and i doubt they will be any BR for t3. so it won't be just who logs faster will get the OC.

An t3 is no challenge Mode jsut the same mechanics with harder hitting, less dmg taken and more morale having foes.

[Mandura]

I'm glad the 'original challenger' title won't be a thing for this raid. For the last two raids the only thing it was good for was causing drama leading to the closure of both the progression threads.

I'm not even sure there will be a 'led the charge' title like for the instances. If there is, there ya go, thats your new 'original challenger'. Just won't be exclusive for a single raid group.

[Drizzels]

I am glad there is no Original Challenger Title.
In the past idiotic people with transferring servers to steal them just was annoying.

I would like to have a bit shorter time frame for the T3 Title(Whether its "Lead the charge" or something else).
4 weeks after T3 release would be a bit to long in my opinion.
Make it either 1 week or maybe 3-5 days after the first raid/server got the raid down on T3.

The T2 title can stay 4 weeks or however long.

[Unknowned]

An t3 is no challenge Mode jsut the same mechanics with harder hitting, less dmg taken and more morale having foes.

if you played on BR and actually did the raid you'd know this is not true. T3 will should have a lot more mechanics. at least according the GMs.

I am glad there is no Original Challenger Title.
In the past idiotic people with transferring servers to steal them just was annoying.

I would like to have a bit shorter time frame for the T3 Title(Whether its "Lead the charge" or something else).
4 weeks after T3 release would be a bit to long in my opinion.
Make it either 1 week or maybe 3-5 days after the first raid/server got the raid down on T3.

The T2 title can stay 4 weeks or however long.

all the drama is basically because people transferring to steal the title, but there are many different ways to prevent that instead of making all other kins who want the OC pay for it. which basically as i suggested make the title server bound or anything else that prevent people from transferring for the OC i don't mind.

[luckygirl1]

I would say that group who just had to transfer for an OC of the Abyss title was the one that ruined it for everyone else. But there was plenty of drama during throne OC's too. Don't think they want to deal with it and it's already been pretty much decided that they are doing the timing title.

[QueenArleth]

In my opinion, there should just be a "world-first" title that spans across all servers, since there are only a handful of kins that are planning to do T3 Anvil and most servers only have 1 endgame kinship that will be actively pursuing it after launch. The exception is on the larger servers such as Arkenstone. You cannot transfer for a "world-first" since only the first raid to clear T3 will get it and it offers exclusivity that a 1 month title does not, which is what the elite raiding kins want. The thing that people are opposed to with a timer-based title, is that basically everyone who clears in a 1 month for T3 or 2 month period for T2 will get it. As far as I know, a few kins have already cleared T2 on Bullroarer so they will just clear it within the first week when it goes live. Someone could literally form a raiding group after the raid is released and get the title before the 2 month timer expires and their level of achievement will be equal to that of a kinship that grinded out several hours per raid in every Bullroarer build. At that point it's akin to the elementary school soccer leagues where everyone gets a participation ribbon.

But it is what it is, and it's really too late to change course.

[Wolf2x]

If they wanted to avoid server transfers for the title, there was much better ways to do it. They could have disabled the title upon transfer, or they could have just awarded a title to world first only

Raid groups battling versus time is not a competition, raid groups vs. raid groups is a competition. This change will unfortunately eliminate all the competitive spirit left in the game. (There wasn’t much to begin with)

Also, I noticed that the name of the deed for T3 is still “Original Challenger of the Anvil”. If you are gonna go through with this current system (which you should not), can you at least remove the “Original” from the title? Being the 10th group in a server to finish the raid 29 days after release is not exactly original

[Cordovan]

In looking into the Original Challenger title I have yet to see a LOTRO raid that had it in which the title didn't cause massive drama both inside and out of the game. It seemed to bring out the worst in our raiding community, and be more damaging than encouraging. We shall see, though, how this new title goes, and we do appreciate the feedback. I personally suspect we'll still see "world first" forum threads and accomplishments among our top raiders, which is great, it just won't come with as much drama associated with it.

[Smapper]

In looking into the Original Challenger title I have yet to see a LOTRO raid that had it in which the title didn't cause massive drama both inside and out of the game. It seemed to bring out the worst in our raiding community, and be more damaging than encouraging. We shall see, though, how this new title goes, and we do appreciate the feedback. I personally suspect we'll still see "world first" forum threads and accomplishments among our top raiders, which is great, it just won't come with as much drama associated with it.

The drama was created not because people "transferred to get title" but simply because people "exploited" in order to get those titles. I don't think getting rid of the title will in anyway fix the problem you see since there will still be people who exploit and get the server first or server second title in these forums. You literally have the solution for the wrong problem.

[Deadly_Myths]

In looking into the Original Challenger title I have yet to see a LOTRO raid that had it in which the title didn't cause massive drama both inside and out of the game. It seemed to bring out the worst in our raiding community, and be more damaging than encouraging. We shall see, though, how this new title goes, and we do appreciate the feedback. I personally suspect we'll still see "world first" forum threads and accomplishments among our top raiders, which is great, it just won't come with as much drama associated with it.

99% of the drama was happening because some players transferred to another server to steal the OC title, which was very unsportsmanship but why would all other kins who wants the OC title must pay for it. there was good suggestions listed above of how to prevent this from happening again without removing the title. but i don't think "world first" forum thread alone will be enough to feel accomplishment when 1st kin and last kin who finished the raid during that time limit will have exactly the same title. why bother even and try hard for world first when there is 0 rewards for it except your name will be on top in a "forum thread". please reconsider this.

[CaerArianrhod]

tier 3 was not on beta, and i doubt they will be any BR for t3. so it won't be just who logs faster will get the OC.

Well and as we now from Thikil Gundu, T3 has totally new mechanics on boss-fighs etc. etc. etc.
The title would be only for "we killed trash faster".

[Gertes]

I really like this new change, it rewards also kins that did not practices day's if not weeks before on beta, with the possibility to acquire a rare title.
Kins who got the world or server first Kill, will still be remembered in the forum.

[ColMcStacky]

In looking into the Original Challenger title I have yet to see a LOTRO raid that had it in which the title didn't cause massive drama both inside and out of the game. It seemed to bring out the worst in our raiding community, and be more damaging than encouraging. We shall see, though, how this new title goes, and we do appreciate the feedback. I personally suspect we'll still see "world first" forum threads and accomplishments among our top raiders, which is great, it just won't come with as much drama associated with it.

I could honestly go either way with the OC title myself. On Landy, there is currently only one kin that I know that will definitely have a raid group, another that probably will, and three that I highly doubt will have enough people coming back to the game to raid. I realize that isn't the situation on every server, but many recent decisions made with u23 and later patches really pushed a lot of people away from the game.

To put it into perspective, for Throne, I regularly was a part of 4 raid groups (1 being my own that I led). For Abyss, I regularly ran with 1 in the first few months, only really getting involved with 2 more regularly after about 6-7 months. For Anvil, I don't even know if there is a raid group that I will be able to join.


And as others have said, the main issues are that people will transfer for titles (as has happened to Landy during Abyss, sadly, about a week before the group I was with got it ourselves), and that the players are the ones playtesting the raid for months while it is in beta. This really destroys any competition that could possibly form since for starters, not all servers are equal. Even a single player on Arkenstone will have a great advantage gear-wise over a player on Landy for example, simply due to the larger volume of high-tier instances being run. On Landy, you can't even pug a t2 Thikil-Gundu in world chat and expect to complete it in a timely manner. You have to wait for 5 other people you know to get online, and with families/work/etc., this doesn't always happen every night even. This means different servers will have their own unique progressions independent of one another (and for this reason, a "world first" title is a poor solution, in my opinion). That aside, those most motivated to get the title will have 2-3 months of practice before the raid even makes it to live, which hurts fair competition even more. If you don't playtest the raid on Bullroarer, you are at a distinct disadvantage to begin with, and those who "tested" the raid the most will inevitably get the first completion because they were months ahead of the game.

Besides, everyone knows that most people who playtest the raid don't even do it to actually test it, but to find exploits they can use later when it goes live. Personally, I ran bosses 3 and 4 only once on BR, in a t1 pug that I saw, and found an exploit on each of the two bosses. We weren't even looking for them, we were just playing through the raid to see what it's like. How is it that these weren't found by people running the raid constantly on BR, but were found and reported by a random PUG instead?

[ColMcStacky]

Well and as we now from Thikil Gundu, T3 has totally new mechanics on boss-fighs etc. etc. etc.
The title would be only for "we killed trash faster".

Sarcasm? Bosses 3 and 4 in Thikil Gundu are the exact same on t2 and t3, with the exception of morale/damage. Boss 2 is the same exact mechanics, only there are all 4 adds present instead of just 3 of them. Boss 1 is the same, except you can only use each forge once (which does nothing mechanic-wise other than make the fight a DPS race). The trash hits harder and takes longer to die, but again, no extra mechanics. The only real difference is that the spirits that spawn when you kill dwarves can only be interrupted by FMs...

Then Glimmerdeep is also exactly the same, except there are more trolls in trash pulls, making it more tedious, but not necessarily harder.

Caverns I can't say, as at this point I just refuse to run that terrible instance.


I know you know all this, but I still feel the need to spell it out in case some reading the thread aren't aware. There is no great difference in mechanics between tiers 2 and 3 in the new instances. Why would the raid be any different? When they created t3 instances, it wasn't to replace challenge modes like we used to have, but to just put less effort into designing mechanics while still trying to make things "difficult" by having them hit harder and take longer. This is fake difficulty though, and basically makes it so your gear matters more than your skill. For example, a skilled tank or healer in the past, even if undergeared, was able to complete t2c instances if they took mechanics into consideration. Now with t3 instances, it doesn't matter nearly as much how skilled you are as it did then. Now it only matters that you have enough stat points to not get 1shot/let others get 2shot.

[H3llsJ4nitor]

I am glad there is no Original Challenger Title.
In the past idiotic people with transferring servers to steal them just was annoying.

I would like to have a bit shorter time frame for the T3 Title(Whether its "Lead the charge" or something else).
4 weeks after T3 release would be a bit to long in my opinion.
Make it either 1 week or maybe 3-5 days after the first raid/server got the raid down on T3.

The T2 title can stay 4 weeks or however long.

Personally, I've always found the most idiotic people to be the ones that use LI exploits on captains to get OC titles, but that's just me

[canyouaddcolour]

I'm glad the 'original challenger' title won't be a thing for this raid. For the last two raids the only thing it was good for was causing drama leading to the closure of both the progression threads.

I'm not even sure there will be a 'led the charge' title like for the instances. If there is, there ya go, thats your new 'original challenger'. Just won't be exclusive for a single raid group.

Yup. People have been incredibly toxic about the Original Challenger title in the past. It's still a notable title with extra motivation for the people beyond the first on each server to push a little more in that first month. If we looked back at Abyss how many Kins completed it within the first month? 20?

[Drizzels]

Personally, I've always found the most idiotic people to be the ones that use LI exploits on captains to get OC titles, but that's just me

LOL

LI captain exploit?
Feel free to explain that to me oO

[NeoBasilisk]

Abyss demonstrated that these titles are no longer a net positive on the community when on one hand you have some people earning them a few hours after the raid is released, and on the other hand you have entire kins transferring servers to steal the titles from slower servers.

[Smapper]

There seems to be a metric ton of confusion with what toxicity is related to. At the end of the day, there will always be drama as to who got server first and who used what exploit to do so, a title will not change any of that, it's simply a bit of extra incentive and "flex".

[Smapper]

Abyss demonstrated that these titles are no longer a net positive on the community when on one hand you have some people earning them a few hours after the raid is released, and on the other hand you have entire kins transferring servers to steal the titles from slower servers.

Can we pls shut up about transfering? It's starting to frustrate the hell out of me. Kins have transfered for titles since freaking Sauromon, never have people even been slightly outraged till now for some odd reason.