Minstrel Tweaks

[istvana]

As an aside, I generally didn't expect raid minstrels to be diving into the fray with their swords brandished high, howling for blood and HPS when I made the Strike changes.<


Please don't screw this one up because you think of LOTRO as a raid game. It isn't. There are more people enjoying Middle Earth and the lore than there are serious raiders and we spend money too.


Don't make changes that hurt what the smallish number of raiders sneer at as "casuals" they may be the core of the game.

[dsltn07]

Hey @Vastin,

So all the buffs to outgoing healing are nice, but...

- You buffed the group heal component of Chord of Salvation. AS many stated befor, that is the same Group heal as Raise the Spirits does and they both scale with the yellow trait "Raise our Spirits" up to 20%. Have you checked/fixed it that they are not bound together anymore? Otherwise the Group heal you are skilling in that trait probably is scaled up the same for Raise the spirits.
You said you are not fixing any buffs, but this is crucial since with those changes this trait would be so good and maybe a key skill to use If it would apply the HoT it is supposed to give.

The cooldown increase was unnecessary since the existing Group Heal was basically non existent, but it should have been the amount, you changed it too now, all the time. Pls leave it at 10s. You basically buff nerv a skill here :=)


- The Cooldown increase on Inspire Fellow is not necessary, but i will come at the end of this Feedback to all the Cooldown related stuff.


- The Bolster Courage heal increase is given to both, the ST heal and the Group heal Bolster our Courage ? Would be nice if the buff is applied to both Heals.
The increased Cooldown to 3s is to much in addition to all the other cooldown increases. But again the Cooldown stuff comes at the end.


- Song of Hammerhand 30% is too much. Minstrels who are not good equipped, will welcome this change, but Endgame Minis (will welcome it aswell) let's have some realtalk, we are at a point again where we are stacking Vitality to infinity. Right now 30% will equall 50.000 k of my Moral in a Raid. 20% are enough :=).
Gift/Legend of Hammerhand are fine, but Tanks get Huge bubbles now.


- Healers/Heroes/Dissonant strike damage increased by ~800%, now draws their base dmg from tactical implement, Dissonant strike now does Light damage like the other two strikes.
Don't you think all together this gets out of Hand? I don't know if it is right now at a 100% or on what value this will add. If the Value we have right now is 100% and all this adds up... This skill will do more damage than most of our actuall Damage Skills. You should buff alle our other Damage skills... Minstrell is doing the least damage now.


- Now we get to the Soliloquy of Spirit Change. That is the worst change ever, and we don't even get a trade for that. I thought of a lot of changes, but non of them included that you would change an immediate skill. These abilities are what defines a Minstrel right now. This was the most used ability a Minstrel had. It was the skill, if used right, which had the highest HPS, in a Boss encounter, by far. There was no skill coming near that healing output in Total. But this was only due to Soliloquy of Spirit being an instant skill. Now not being an instant skill will make the ability so useless, that it will only be used because of the 3% mitigation buff granted by the blue line Cap Stone "inner strength".
This change will drop our Total HPS by a lot. The buffs to all the other abilities are nice, but since the cooldown was increased aswell there will be a Minus in our HPS. And even tho HPS is not everything, group Healing will take a huge hit in my Opinion. ST healing may not suffer, from that change, as hard as group.
In my opinion revert that change, or make it an instant cast again, delete the Healing, make the mitigation standard, change the Capstone and fix that HoT from Rais the spirits granted by the trait "Rais our Spirits".


- The trait "Raise our Spirit" could be a pretty big "game" changer and maybe revert some opinions here if the Trait would actually work. So please look into that. We as players don't even know what the HoT looks like / was supposed to look like. We just see a trait, not working the way as in the Tooltip stated, with huge potential. Imagine it would be a HoT ticking every 3s for 7k in Tooltip. That would be a fair trade for all those increased cooldowns and the change to Soliloquy of Spirit.
But in the end it would be best reverting Soliloquy of Spirit.


- To end my Feedback I would like to say that all the Cooldowns increased make the howl Mini situation not better. Why make the Minstrel more slow as it already is. Give the Bolster Courage, if in your opinion it is really necessary, at least a 1s cd. Honestly there is no need for that. There is no need for any Cooldown increases. With all those changes the Minstrel will be slower than before, there will be more pauses between abilities because you are waiting for them to get off CD.
The increase of Coda Cooldown was not necessary, since it never made sence to use it again before the -inc Damage buff would expire and you put at least 2 points into the trait increasing the duration of that buff. Which means it is 10s long.
Inspire Fellows was our best group heal with low cooldown. The buff of healing is good, but 10s CD is too much. Increase Heal by 90% and increase Cooldown by 100%?! Someone explain the maths too me. It is not about the altitude it heals. It's the frequency or rather the amount it heals in a period of time. Minstrels don't have huge group heals like beornings. It's about the frequency and with those high cooldowns and the loss of group healing support through Soliloquy of Spirit
I don't see an increase or improvement in Minstrel healing.



It would've been the best to just buff some outgoing healing stuff and update skills and from there we could see if the Minstrel is too strong or needs a further buff. But that is just so much mess at the same time which wouldn't be necessary. I would rather wait a few weeks more (missing raid release) than just making quick changes.

Still thanks for the effort you are putting in.


PS: don't judge my spelling, there are probably some mistakes in the Text

Your math is off regarding inspire fellows. You forgot the induction time, it’s a 10s cd, but you save an extra 2.5s for the second induction you didn’t have to use.

[JiiPee]

But it will make the rotation and skill gap even less, you're missing the point, the less skills you have to press = less skill it takes to require to play the class. Please revert the SoS change you even stated you have no idea how to play mini

Healing with SoS:




Healing Without SoS and With these new changes:



You can see with the new changes mini will run out of skills to heal with and the consistency will turn to ####, also it feels even more boring. Please revert as no one asked for this
If there is a broken mechanic within the skill that allows it to be "exploited" then fix the exploit, don't ruin the whole class and rotation
The skill gap isn't also the problem, its the people who you listen to, you don't actually make it so people who are good at their class can give their feedback, you make it so even those who have mental ######ation can whine and cry about a class being too underpowered and give their stupid feedback

So you compare mini healing pre change when mini was OP AF with no bolster inductions to current mini heals by removing SoS from your skillbar? Well done man well done. I didn't see anywhere mention that SoS is REMOVED from game. But I understand that you want back OP bolster and induction buffs so that you can look awesome by posting thouse ridiculous HPS numbers.

[sahanto]

So you compare mini healing pre change when mini was OP AF with no bolster inductions to current mini heals by removing SoS from your skillbar? Well done man well done. I didn't see anywhere mention that SoS is REMOVED from game. But I understand that you want back OP bolster and induction buffs so that you can look awesome by posting thouse ridiculous HPS numbers.

I mean, the skill is useless now, maybe a pre combat buff for mits at best.

Your math is off regarding inspire fellows. You forgot the induction time, it’s a 10s cd, but you save an extra 2.5s for the second induction you didn’t have to use.

Skills go on cd when they go off not when theyre used.

[CaerArianrhod]

I can't believe how many people just said this. How have they played lotro and never experienced a classic "Tank and Spank" boss fight? Unbroken? Sagrog? Hrímil? Storvâgûn? The howling pit? Honestly? Feeling sorry for all of the fellowships who have had to run with a minstrel who isn't able to remove corruptions between heals.

Of course you can go an try it. A minstrel has even two skills for corruption removal, but I'm sorry for the group which needs a minstrel - who has usually as healer 0 finesse rating - to remove corruptions.
And this is not about the 10% of all fights, where you can stay on the boss. You don't want to go into an orc group on TG in T3 just to try to remove a corruption from an archer. And from your listed fights, Sagrog is the only one, where you can stay and remove corruptions without neglecting your primary focus: healing.

[dsltn07]

I mean, the skill is useless now, maybe a pre combat buff for mits at best.

Skills go on cd when they go off not when theyre used.

Yes, and the group would still have to wait 15 seconds to get the same heals currently.
Versus the change where you can fire the one skill and it’s ready to go again in 12.5 seconds. It’s like a direct 17% HPS buff to inspire fellows, just on cooldown. The additional 2.5 seconds you’re not inducting can then be used on other skills.

[keztryl]

I actually meant what I said. Here is why. Piercing Cry no matter the build or stance removes one corruption every ten seconds. This is enough for any situation. For every boss you named I can name 3 where no Minstrel would dare stand near a frontal aoe or radius aoe. There was a time back at level 65 where a Minstrel played a more prominent role in corruption removal with their one melee skill but since the addition of two more corruption incorporations, this being Piercing Cry and Cry of the Valar a Minstrel has plenty of choice in their arsenal regardless of build or trait line.

I always remove corruptions and in most cases before any other class. You mention The Howling Pit. I been trying this with 3 Minstrels all red line. I am always kiting non stop and main target selector in this group. Corruptions for all purposes of this post could be said to be non existent and all while at range using one skill. This being Piercing Cry. With 3 Piercing Cries all with the resets from Ballad crits it is a magical sight to behold.

My point was just that the rhetoric of "Minstrels should never stand near the boss" was getting a bit over the top imho. Fights where the entire group stands behind the boss are so common that they have a name for that kind of fight (i.e., tank and spank). If you were to stand away from the group on the last boss fight of the current raid, you will almost certainly be knocked off the ledge (Hrímil Frost-heart), so at the very least, this heal will be useful in the current raiding context (but also in many many others). And while I agree that Piercing Cry with resets does work fantastic for corruption removal in Red, you can get about 5 corruptions removed in 12 seconds by using dissonant strike and piercing cry in Blue (strike+cry+heal+strike+heal+c ry+strike), making Minstrels one of the most effective classes for corruption removal in the game regardless of which line they are in.

Sure there are risks, but this skill has some great rewards and I can only say I'm happy to see them improved.

[keztryl]

Of course you can go an try it. A minstrel has even two skills for corruption removal, but I'm sorry for the group which needs a minstrel - who has usually as healer 0 finesse rating - to remove corruptions.
And this is not about the 10% of all fights, where you can stay on the boss. You don't want to go into an orc group on TG in T3 just to try to remove a corruption from an archer. And from your listed fights, Sagrog is the only one, where you can stay and remove corruptions without neglecting your primary focus: healing.

Okay. I don't really want to get into a long drawn out debate. I get that there are a lot of different play styles, and in all honesty, I've been playing minstrel for long enough that the situation described above does not scare me one bit. "Going into an orc group on TG in T3 just to try to remove a corruption from an archer" is something I do all the time because I've done it a billion times in Unbroken t2c and Sagrog t2c. Its a well practiced normal part of playing the class for me.

This sort of goes to my earlier posts about HPS. HPS is only a proxy for what really matters... namely, your "Save Percentage" (i.e. the number of times a fellowship member would of died but didn't because of your actions). If removing a corruption is going to prevent someone in your fellowship from falling over, do that. Yes you are a healer, but removing corruption is also a part of your class. You can't heal someone through hits from archers with multiple corruptions. You need very little finesse to be effective against mobs from behind. What's important is that neither you nor a member of your party dies from an archer with two corruptions.

In conclusion...

Hear ye, hear ye fair minstrels! Neglect not thy blade!
When thou sword sinks deep into thy enemy's back,
let them know who holds the steel, singing "I stabbeth thee!"

[Vastin]

Okay folks, here's the next pass, based on feedback and further math and contempation - and most importantly, based on much more detailed animation timing than I had before.
The changes below supersede the previous list.

Minstrel Change Log V2.0

Note: Most values below were calibrated on a pure blue spec 120 minstrel with mid-endgame gearing. YMMV.

- Many Minstrel skills/effects that had not been normalized previously have been updated. This should mostly result in a more even experience as you level. In particular low level minstrel DPS is no longer quite so outrageous.
- Animations on several skills have been shortened, some quite significantly (Raise the Spirit, Bolster Courage, Inspire Fellows, Chord of Salvation, Soliloquy of Spirit, Perfect Ending, Story of Courage, others).
- Healers/Heroes/Dissonant strike damage increased by ~800%, and now draw their base dmg from tactical implement. Dissonant Strike now does [Common->Light] dmg.
- Healers/Heroes Strike heals increased by ~550%.
- Major Ballad group heal increased by ~570%. This skill can now be used prior to combat.
- Improved Chord of Salvation group heal component increased by ~300%, cooldown increased [10->12s].
- Fellowship's Heart base heal increased by ~110%. Group HoT by ~20%.
- Raise the Spirit base heal increased by ~150%, animations shortened, base induction increased [1.2->1.4].
- Raise the Spirit's yellow line trait now properly applies a Fellowship HoT (3ticks/2s, 20m radius)
- Coda of Resonance Heal increased by ~150%.
- Coda of Melody's heal increased by ~130%.
- Inspire Fellows heal increased by ~115%, cooldown increased [5->6s]. Base induction reduced [2.5->2.0]
- Perfect Ending heal increased by ~40%.
- Bolster Courage direct heal increased by ~55%, group heal by ~30%, animation times reduced, cooldown increased to 3s, base induction increased [2.5->2.7]
- Triumphant Spirit heal increased by ~30%.
- Legend of Hammerhand's expiry heal is now 2% of each fellowship member's max morale per bubble that expires.
- Soliloquy of Spirit is no longer Immediate and will not interrupt other skill animations.
- Spirit of Freedom is now Immediate and has a very short animation.
- Story of Courage no longer has an induction, it is now a Fast skill with a short anim.
- Song of Hammerhand bubble magnitude increased (10%->30% Max Vital).
- Gift/Legend of Hammerhand bubble magnitudes increased (10%->20% Max Vital).
- Echoes of Battle now does [Common->Light] Damage.
- All Ballad damage increased by ~40%.
- Successive heals will now maintain the Perfect Ending buff once you have achieved a full stack, rather than it expiring if it is not used.

That's about it. Probably not going to be able to get much else done save for a minor number polish pass after this, as I really need to move on now.

This, frankly, is probably overdoing it on the healing scale - cutting the animation times bumps the base output considerably, even taking the loss of animation breaking into account - but I simply don't have a good way to run realistic numbers in-house in this time frame so I'll see what I can do about getting a version of this to Palantir or Bullroarer quickly. In any case, I'm still taking feedback based on this listing, though I may not have time to act on it soon.

-Vastin

[Strikerin]

Many of you seem to forget that I do have the power to change animation times - within reason. The animation tails on your primary heals are clearly WAY too long if you've become this wedded to the interrupt mechanic, so I'll just trim them - it's not like the extended animation is doing you any good aesthetically given as you are intentionally cutting them.

-Vastin

Thanks Vastin!
Please just keep in mind that the Mini needs to be able to equal the Beorning as a fellowship and single target healer. There are a number of these changes that are effectively nerfs (Inspire fellows is a stacking buff that reduces incoming damage - increasing the CD and healing amount, even by the same percentage, does not account for this).

It shouldn't make it into this pass - but a mechanic that is just as problematic structurally is the current induction reduction mechanic. Like mitigation, avoidance, and incoming damage reduction, this is an additive multiplier that has an exponential increase in effectiveness the more you have. With new set bonuses providing a new source of this stat, and with the high rate the mini already has, please be aware that the difference between a t2+ geared mini and one without may be dramatically different.

While you are making tweaks - please recognize that healing on the move was a Beorning specialty even before the Spring Mini nerf or the Fall Beorning buff. With the amount of movement in the new raid, it might be good to consider improving one or two healing on the move abilities.

Edit: Ninja'd by Vastin!
Thanks for your dedication - I know you wouldn't be working at 9:40 at night if you didn't care!
Looking forward to seeing in in Bullroarer (and hopefully the Palantir team

Let's hope that Palantir has a few mini's that can really put the changes through their paces.

[Mechrophilia]

- Many Minstrel skills/effects that had not been normalized previously have been updated. This should mostly result in a more even experience as you level. In particular low level minstrel DPS is no longer quite so outrageous.-Vastin

This worries me. Please keep in mind, Vastin, that lower level mini DPS was already nerfed quite a bit with the update 23 pass. Their DPS right now is FAR from outrageous.

~M

[DJ_JD]

Okay folks, here's the next pass, based on feedback and further math and contempation - and most importantly, based on much more detailed animation timing than I had before.
The changes below supersede the previous list.

Minstrel Change Log V2.0

Note: Most values below were calibrated on a pure blue spec 120 minstrel with mid-endgame gearing. YMMV.

- Many Minstrel skills/effects that had not been normalized previously have been updated. This should mostly result in a more even experience as you level. In particular low level minstrel DPS is no longer quite so outrageous.
- Animations on several skills have been shortened, some quite significantly (Raise the Spirit, Bolster Courage, Inspire Fellows, Chord of Salvation, Soliloquy of Spirit, Perfect Ending, Story of Courage, others).
- Healers/Heroes/Dissonant strike damage increased by ~800%, and now draw their base dmg from tactical implement. Dissonant Strike now does [Common->Light] dmg.
- Healers/Heroes Strike heals increased by ~550%.
- Major Ballad group heal increased by ~570%. This skill can now be used prior to combat.
- Improved Chord of Salvation group heal component increased by ~300%, cooldown increased [10->12s].
- Fellowship's Heart base heal increased by ~110%. Group HoT by ~20%.
- Raise the Spirit base heal increased by ~150%, animations shortened, base induction increased [1.2->1.4].
- Raise the Spirit's yellow line trait now properly applies a Fellowship HoT (3ticks/2s, 20m radius)
- Coda of Resonance Heal increased by ~150%.
- Coda of Melody's heal increased by ~130%.
- Inspire Fellows heal increased by ~115%, cooldown increased [5->6s]. Base induction reduced [2.5->2.0]
- Perfect Ending heal increased by ~40%.
- Bolster Courage direct heal increased by ~55%, group heal by ~30%, animation times reduced, cooldown increased to 3s, base induction increased [2.5->2.7]
- Triumphant Spirit heal increased by ~30%.
- Legend of Hammerhand's expiry heal is now 2% of each fellowship member's max morale per bubble that expires.
- Soliloquy of Spirit is no longer Immediate and will not interrupt other skill animations.
- Spirit of Freedom is now Immediate and has a very short animation.
- Story of Courage no longer has an induction, it is now a Fast skill with a short anim.
- Song of Hammerhand bubble magnitude increased (10%->30% Max Vital).
- Gift/Legend of Hammerhand bubble magnitudes increased (10%->20% Max Vital).
- Echoes of Battle now does [Common->Light] Damage.
- All Ballad damage increased by ~40%.
- Successive heals will now maintain the Perfect Ending buff once you have achieved a full stack, rather than it expiring if it is not used.

That's about it. Probably not going to be able to get much else done save for a minor number polish pass after this, as I really need to move on now.

This, frankly, is probably overdoing it on the healing scale - cutting the animation times bumps the base output considerably, even taking the loss of animation breaking into account - but I simply don't have a good way to run realistic numbers in-house in this time frame so I'll see what I can do about getting a version of this to Palantir or Bullroarer quickly. In any case, I'm still taking feedback based on this listing, though I may not have time to act on it soon.

-Vastin

I can't complain about any of these changes now, I'm excited to try it out! Thank you for such quick work on this!!

[Bombolllo]

Yeah thanks Vastin second round of changes looks like a good step in the right direction, interested to test the changes when they release on BR or live but think this looks like a really nice buff that also makes the class a bit less clunky. Ty and hope it makes for a more interesting rotation!!

[istvana]

I'm still taking feedback based on this listing, though I may not have time to act on it soon.<


Good - thank you. Just two comments based on the fact that much of the game is below 120 and many people play for the open world and the lore not the dungeons and very definitely those who raid are a small but often very loudmouthed percentage.


1. If this is going to make the class much harder to play solo because the damage output will be significantly less - as you already said - DONT DO IT. Make your changes in the healing line and in the healing stance but leave the red line and damage stances alone.


You have no clue how many people enjoy soloing around in landscape, and switched from blue hunter to red minstrel so they could keep doing so. Don't force them out of the game for good.


Doing something that even you admit you don't t have time to do right and that may wreck the class - just because a handful of people complained - is a terrible idea. I agree their complaints were justified minstrel healing has become awful and if you just raised healing output and left damage alone I wouldn't have the slightest problem.


2. Don't just assume that the game begins t 120 - we see so *many* people bumming around at much lower level some of whom have been playing for many years without hitting high level because they don't care. Or don't want to and use the Stone of the Tortoise.


If you can make changes that you think will probably help well geared people at 120 but you don't know how it will affect normal players at 20 or 40 or 70 DONT DO IT. Don't break the class for most of us - if you do not have time to make sure your changes work at lower levels don't push them out.


And frankly just you saying that low level minstrel damage is outrageous shows you don't know the class well enough at levels below 120 to push out a major revision in a huge hurry and maybe breaking the class. As someone else already said - others of us care about lower levels too


"This worries me. Please keep in mind, Vastin, that lower level mini DPS was already nerfed quite a bit with the update 23 pass. Their DPS right now is FAR from outrageous."


This is most definitely true - the nerf at lower levels was very substantial the class doesn't need a *second* nerf.

[DJ_JD]

I'm still taking feedback based on this listing, though I may not have time to act on it soon.<


Good - thank you. Just two comments based on the fact that much of the game is below 120 and many people play for the open world and the lore not the dungeons and very definitely those who raid are a small but often very loudmouthed percentage.


1. If this is going to make the class much harder to play solo because the damage output will be significantly less - as you already said - DONT DO IT. Make your changes in the healing line and in the healing stance but leave the red line and damage stances alone.


You have no clue how many people enjoy soloing around in landscape, and switched from blue hunter to red minstrel so they could keep doing so. Don't force them out of the game for good.


Doing something that even you admit you don't t have time to do right and that may wreck the class - just because a handful of people complained - is a terrible idea. I agree their complaints were justified minstrel healing has become awful and if you just raised healing output and left damage alone I wouldn't have the slightest problem.


2. Don't just assume that the game begins t 120 - we see so *many* people bumming around at much lower level some of whom have been playing for many years without hitting high level because they don't care. Or don't want to and use the Stone of the Tortoise.


If you can make changes that you think will probably help well geared people at 120 but you don't know how it will affect normal players at 20 or 40 or 70 DONT DO IT. Don't break the class for most of us - if you do not have time to make sure your changes work at lower levels don't push them out.

This is a completely exaggerated post. Vastin's already said he play tested at level 50 and was able to comfortably kill elite mobs. Minstrel dps has been over the top at low levels for a long time now, so really it's about time this sort of change was made. Finally, Vastin has also mentioned multiple times theses changes will be play tested either on Palantir or Bullroarer, which would give additional chance to review dps numbers.

[istvana]

DJ JD you seem to have missed a few things we were saying. Firstly minstrel dps was recently reduced substantially - I agree it used to be too high but this already had a look taken at it. A look by someone that had more time than Vastin *admits* he has.

Secondly if we had reason to expect a nice thorough test before anything was released we wouldn't really have an objection to testing it. But Vastin has admitted he doesn't have time and the test is quite likely to be on whether the healing is good enough now at 120 with almost no attention paid to anything else simply for lack of time.


The time to stop the class from being wrecked for non-raiders is NOW before it goes to the test server, the raiders who moaned and complained all say it is a big improvement because it deals with *their* issue while it wrecks things for others, and Vastin takes the half hour he has to skim the comments and then releases it,

[Zvim666]

I look forward to testing it out. Thanks for your time, Vastin.

[jomanjy]

Okay folks, here's the next pass, based on feedback and further math and contempation - and most importantly, based on much more detailed animation timing than I had before.
The changes below supersede the previous list.

Minstrel Change Log V2.0

Note: Most values below were calibrated on a pure blue spec 120 minstrel with mid-endgame gearing. YMMV.

- Many Minstrel skills/effects that had not been normalized previously have been updated. This should mostly result in a more even experience as you level. In particular low level minstrel DPS is no longer quite so outrageous.
- Animations on several skills have been shortened, some quite significantly (Raise the Spirit, Bolster Courage, Inspire Fellows, Chord of Salvation, Soliloquy of Spirit, Perfect Ending, Story of Courage, others).
- Healers/Heroes/Dissonant strike damage increased by ~800%, and now draw their base dmg from tactical implement. Dissonant Strike now does [Common->Light] dmg.
- Healers/Heroes Strike heals increased by ~550%.
- Major Ballad group heal increased by ~570%. This skill can now be used prior to combat.
- Improved Chord of Salvation group heal component increased by ~300%, cooldown increased [10->12s].
- Fellowship's Heart base heal increased by ~110%. Group HoT by ~20%.
- Raise the Spirit base heal increased by ~150%, animations shortened, base induction increased [1.2->1.4].
- Raise the Spirit's yellow line trait now properly applies a Fellowship HoT (3ticks/2s, 20m radius)
- Coda of Resonance Heal increased by ~150%.
- Coda of Melody's heal increased by ~130%.
- Inspire Fellows heal increased by ~115%, cooldown increased [5->6s]. Base induction reduced [2.5->2.0]
- Perfect Ending heal increased by ~40%.
- Bolster Courage direct heal increased by ~55%, group heal by ~30%, animation times reduced, cooldown increased to 3s, base induction increased [2.5->2.7]
- Triumphant Spirit heal increased by ~30%.
- Legend of Hammerhand's expiry heal is now 2% of each fellowship member's max morale per bubble that expires.
- Soliloquy of Spirit is no longer Immediate and will not interrupt other skill animations.
- Spirit of Freedom is now Immediate and has a very short animation.
- Story of Courage no longer has an induction, it is now a Fast skill with a short anim.
- Song of Hammerhand bubble magnitude increased (10%->30% Max Vital).
- Gift/Legend of Hammerhand bubble magnitudes increased (10%->20% Max Vital).
- Echoes of Battle now does [Common->Light] Damage.
- All Ballad damage increased by ~40%.
- Successive heals will now maintain the Perfect Ending buff once you have achieved a full stack, rather than it expiring if it is not used.

That's about it. Probably not going to be able to get much else done save for a minor number polish pass after this, as I really need to move on now.

This, frankly, is probably overdoing it on the healing scale - cutting the animation times bumps the base output considerably, even taking the loss of animation breaking into account - but I simply don't have a good way to run realistic numbers in-house in this time frame so I'll see what I can do about getting a version of this to Palantir or Bullroarer quickly. In any case, I'm still taking feedback based on this listing, though I may not have time to act on it soon.

-Vastin

I love these changes. even though i find the 30% bubble is too strong also Raise the spirit induction imo need to be increased more as well. right now on live it has only 0.3s indcution (with the new raid set) so i don't think the 0.2 increase will do anything.but still thanks for reducing the animation on most of skills, these are solid changes.

[Thodrien]

Decent changes but in all honesty: now mini will be most likely on rk/beorning lv.
And that is not good for the given content and will most likely produce a t3 raid cleared on day 1/2.
Id rather kept the old mini as it was and nerved beorning/rk.

[the319]

Potentially nice changes, hopefully the hot from raise our sprites doesn't interfere with the chord hot like it did before. Should be a lot less clunky to play

[cike]

I love these changes. even though i find the 30% bubble is too strong ...

I wonder if it's still based on minis morale. This shouldn't be too op if it is (100k mini morale -> 30k bubble which is less than a single heal)

[CaerArianrhod]

Okay folks, here's the next pass, based on feedback and further math and contempation - and most importantly, based on much more detailed animation timing than I had before.
The changes below supersede the previous list.

Minstrel Change Log V2.0
[...]
That's about it. Probably not going to be able to get much else done save for a minor number polish pass after this, as I really need to move on now.

This, frankly, is probably overdoing it on the healing scale - cutting the animation times bumps the base output considerably, even taking the loss of animation breaking into account - but I simply don't have a good way to run realistic numbers in-house in this time frame so I'll see what I can do about getting a version of this to Palantir or Bullroarer quickly. In any case, I'm still taking feedback based on this listing, though I may not have time to act on it soon.

-Vastin

The changes sound really good.
The next round for feedback should be the Bullroarer version of the changes, so we can test and feel/see how this changes are working.
I like the V2.0 changes a lot more and now i'm waiting for BR to be open to test them.

[Emaldiom]

I wonder if it's still based on minis morale. This shouldn't be too op if it is (100k mini morale -> 30k bubble which is less than a single heal)

With new raid armour and full essence jewellery setup you can get 180.000 morale as a minstrel even with crit and mits capped (and outgoing healing)
Then this bubble will suddenly become much better

I do think the hearing will now be on pair with rune-keeper and beor..which is not that good tbh as the healing of these classes is OP and makes content trivial..
I suspect t3 raid to be done by best kins the first week or day even when released as long as this healing is the norm

I do however think the current live mini needs improvement, but maybe not as big as this

But then again, this is not tested yet on bullroaer or pala so time will show

[Driverman23]

I was trying imagine the rotation without SOS animation cut but with bolster and coda on CD I could only imagine raise the spirit spam to hopefully proc perfect ending.

That's not a hopefully proc skill, it's guaranteed.

[Herwegur]

Secondly if we had reason to expect a nice thorough test before anything was released we wouldn't really have an objection to testing it. But Vastin has admitted he doesn't have time and the test is quite likely to be on whether the healing is good enough now at 120 with almost no attention paid to anything else simply for lack of time.
The time to stop the class from being wrecked for non-raiders is NOW before it goes to the test server, the raiders who moaned and complained all say it is a big improvement because it deals with *their* issue while it wrecks things for others, and Vastin takes the half hour he has to skim the comments and then releases it,

You are completely misrepresenting what's happening. All of this will be put to public testing. If you wish to participate in beta testing these Minstrel changes, download the Bullroarer client and see you in Bullroarer feedback thread.

I wanted to write a longer reply but then I saw the words "raiders who moaned" and cannot take above post seriously. Dividing and attacking other players/playstyles does not yield credence to your opinion. Again, if you are interested in *constructive* discussion and testing of these changes, see you in beta forums and on Bullroarer server itself. Otherwise you are the one who is moaning.