Reveal Weakness died for this

[4andreas]

Well, those that hoped this was going to be a temporary bandaid to burglar utility , sorry it's not happening. But thank you nonetheless, it's something. We can only hope for the promised revamp to give us a proper meaning in (small) fellowships. Alas that our community is so divided, as we have some thinking we should be a full dps class, and others thinking we need aoe. I truly hope that the burglar becomes the heart of every fellowship again.

If red could just be our sneaky burst (solo/pvmp), blue our sustained dps with fellowship utility, and yellow our trickster: debuff, cc, moderate healing and moderate damage.
Wasn't that the original intention?

Red burst is already in a good shape in my opinion. It's blue and yellow that are in worse state.

i think we all agree that yellow is buff line, but in my opinion blue should not have more dps than red. Red is squishy high burst line. You can oneshot landscape mobs yay or maybe creeps in pvmp and thats all. There is no need for burst in instances. Even if something is dps race, and you want to dps some mob fast, the time in which you do it is so long, that burglar 'burst' falls behind other dps. Compared to red, blue offer much more utility and thus i see it as something between yellow and red.

Yellow line is the only line currently usable for group content.

In my opinion burglar should be a single target dps class with same damage as rk/hunter WHEN fighting from behind. Which would effectively mean we would always have less dps because of not being ranged and other mechanics.

[Fingerz]

I'm sorry we are not a support class anymore 2 of our 3 trees are dps they just don't work like they should. Our "Support" line is only used in a 12 man raid and that is the only place it is ever used or can even function.

And here lies the biggest problem.

Our support line needs to be competitive in a 6 man fellowship.

Fill a dps spot in a 3 man sure, still need a better red line boost but we should not start getting comfortable that a Burg should become support line in just 12 man raids.

For one thing this game need more than 1 class that can play an effective debuffer in 6 mans, historically always Burg or LM had ample utility to fulfill this role.

I'm putting my faith in Vastin that he recognizes this and will address this issue on his in depth Burglar parse.

[Sneakfoot101]

Well, those that hoped this was going to be a temporary bandaid to burglar utility , sorry it's not happening. But thank you nonetheless, it's something. We can only hope for the promised revamp to give us a proper meaning in (small) fellowships. Alas that our community is so divided, as we have some thinking we should be a full dps class, and others thinking we need aoe. I truly hope that the burglar becomes the heart of every fellowship again.

If red could just be our sneaky burst (solo/pvmp), blue our sustained dps with fellowship utility, and yellow our trickster: debuff, cc, moderate healing and moderate damage.
Wasn't that the original intention?

Red burst is already in a good shape in my opinion. It's blue and yellow that are in worse state.

You could buff yellow and blue by 100% and nothing would change. There is no heart of the fellowship anymore... there is only Tank/DPS/Healer nothing else.

[Sneakfoot101]

And here lies the biggest problem.

Our support line needs to be competitive in a 6 man fellowship.

Fill a dps spot in a 3 man sure, still need a better red line boost but we should not start getting comfortable that a Burg should become support line in just 12 man raids.

For one thing this game need more than 1 class that can play an effective debuffer in 6 mans, historically always Burg or LM had ample utility to fulfill this role.

I'm putting my faith in Vastin that he recognizes this and will address this issue on his in depth Burglar parse.

That would be good I agree but it will never happen they will not buff yellow so it works in a 6man to the point that ppl ask for us. Because if they did then it would be too OP for a raid and LMs would cry.

[Fingerz]

That would be good I agree but it will never happen they will not buff yellow so it works in a 6man to the point that ppl ask for us. Because if they did then it would be too OP for a raid and LMs would cry.

We can agree to disagree

I can see why you think that as Burg has fallen so far behind LM nowdays but I have Burglar'd here too long to not recall a good 5+ years where Burg was as good as LM de-buffing / CC 6 man fellows.

I think it's can and should happen with smart thoughts on combining trick AE, + one trick per target or magnitude, adjusting how trickster works and giving clever retort the group benefits as mentioned in the previous burg threads.

[Sneakfoot101]

We can agree to disagree

I can see why you think that as Burg has fallen so far behind LM nowdays but I have Burglar'd here too long to not recall a good 5+ years where Burg was as good as LM de-buffing / CC 6 man fellows.

I think it's can and should happen with smart thoughts on combining trick AE, + one trick per target or magnitude, adjusting how trickster works and giving clever retort the group benefits as mentioned in the previous burg threads.

They are really good ideas and it would make yellow for sure more fun to play. We will see hope it all works out.

[Thodrien]

the dps increase we got with this update is a full joke and i really cant belive Vastin things that the super minor dps boosts he did will change anything.
It will maybe increase our dps by 3-5% so instead of 80k we do 84k dps while hunters,rks,champs and wardens still easy do 120-150k in that comparision.

###

[Thodrien]

I compared my tooltip stats aswell pre and after the update.
Lv 95 burg with 32.973 mastery=188.9% mastery

Skill changes:

Purge corruption got a 927 number=48% increase
Knives out got a 361 number=15% increase
CDG and Fain Attack+all bleeds got 0=0% increase
Provoke got a 301 number=15% increase
Double edged strike 1 got a 119 number=4.7% increase
Double edged strike 2 got a 215 number=10% increase
Flashing blades 1 got a 53 number=1.8% increase
Flashing blades 2 got a 339 number=15% increase
Gamblers Advantage got a 355 number=15% increase
Subtle Stab got a 108 number=5% increase
Cunning Attack got a 272 number=15% increase
Suprise Strike got a 301 number=15% increase

My overall dps with the same rotation went up by 500-800 average on 5min parses=3.8%-6.2% increase

@Vastin:I am sorry but this tiny tiny increase is not even close to be enough to close the gap between red burgs and other classes.

And what you say here: " I rather imagine that the Burglars are clever enough to parley this buff into a bigger increase than that through tweaks to rotations, stats and tactics."
is so amazingly wrong i thought for a second it would be friendlyhat writing this and not you......

What needs to happen: Since 5-15% tooltip increase result in a super small and barely noticable dps increase i suggest:
60-80% tooltip increase
30-50% tooltip increase on bleed

[Morgorth]

I rather imagine that the Burglars are clever enough to parley this buff into a bigger increase than that through tweaks to rotations, stats and tactics.

-Vastin

In a game...
Based on a book...
About a Burglar...
Burglar is the weakest class.
And then the Dev...
Who looked at the class...
For a minute...
Told the folks...
Who've been playing the class...
For 12 Years...
They're playing it wrong...
And insulted their intelligence...
With passive aggressive condescension...
And we're supposed to be happy with this...
How many subscription months do we have to pay?..
How many lootbox keys do we have to be forced to buy?..
Before we realize this sunk cost fallacy...
Is exactly that?

[Vilan]

How is it condescension? He's saying "Look guys, you have WAY more time to fiddle around with these changes than I do. So I'm guessing you'll find creative ways to parlay them into a bigger increase than they seem on the surface." Whether you agree with that or not, it's still pretty much the opposite of condescension.

[Happychappy]

The point I'm trying to make is that Red Line Burglar is not useful for anything but PvMP. They're terrible at everything in all PvE content. Blue Line is also not played anywhere because it doesn't fit any role whatsoever and Yellow Line is only playable in Raid content (no 3-man/6-man content). Red Line Burglar used to be able to compete with other DPS classes (like Hunter/RK/Champion/Warden) or at least be closer to them than now. Nowadays, Red Line Burglars only have about 50-60% of those classes' DPS, they have 0 AOE and are MELEE ONLY and they will never be used as a DPS therefore. In addition to that, SSG just recently nerfed Reveal Weakness so that it doesn't stack anymore. However, yellow Line Burglar is mandatory for the raid and therefore Red Line Burglar will never be played in the new raid.

While Beorning certainly has some DPS support buffs, his main role is a healer so why would you think they should have equal/more dps than a Burglar (regardless of trait line). However, Burglars main role never was support on Red Line, so they definitly need a big DPS buff to be able to be compete.

The red line Beorning just like the red line burglar is a dps line. What else is it you think they bring?

Yes their main role weirdly is as a healer. Burglars main role is as a Debuffer/CC.

In red line the classes are the same, they are dps. The Burglar has stealth/CC etc and the Beorning has heavy armour.

Are you struggling to kill mobs in red line? or do you just want to one shot mobs constantly?

Yes dps should be more competetive but i do think that dps on some classes has gone too far.

We need more tactical play with debuffs/CC etc, where the burgs and Lms can excell and not just a Dps race.

[Sneakfoot101]

The red line Beorning just like the red line burglar is a dps line. What else is it you think they bring?

Yes their main role weirdly is as a healer. Burglars main role is as a Debuffer/CC.

In red line the classes are the same, they are dps. The Burglar has stealth/CC etc and the Beorning has heavy armour.

Are you struggling to kill mobs in red line? or do you just want to one shot mobs constantly?

Yes dps should be more competetive but i do think that dps on some classes has gone too far.

We need more tactical play with debuffs/CC etc, where the burgs and Lms can excell and not just a Dps race.

Hey Happychappy do you play a end game burg? You say our main role is a debuffer/cc right? When is the last time you used our debuffer/cc line in a 3/6 man group?

One shotting landscape mobs is not the issue here.. content that matters is. Where did you lvl your burg farming in the shire like 90% of the population? You want more tactical play? I agree but the devs don't they design content that is a modern dps race that favors ranged classes and when the rest of the classes fall behind they cant afford to take the time and get everyone else caught up (because they are working on the next patch/content where the cool kids open loot boxes asap so they can do more damage and ssg can make more money) so they band-aid fix them and atm burg is covered in band-aids.

[Happychappy]

Hey Happychappy do you play a end game burg? You say our main role is a debuffer/cc right? When is the last time you used our debuffer/cc line in a 3/6 man group?

One shotting landscape mobs is not the issue here.. content that matters is. Where did you lvl your burg farming in the shire like 90% of the population? You want more tactical play? I agree but the devs don't they design content that is a modern dps race that favors ranged classes and when the rest of the classes fall behind they cant afford to take the time and get everyone else caught up (because they are working on the next patch/content where the cool kids open loot boxes asap so they can do more damage and ssg can make more money) so they band-aid fix them and atm burg is covered in band-aids.

They have enough dps for a 3/6 man.

Yes they do favor ranged dps with content, with bloated morale pools of mobs due to the high dps of certain classes.

The problem is competing with the Hunter and RK for a dps spot. Never going to end well unless they do something about it.

I just dont think more and more dps is the answer.

[Sneakfoot101]

They have enough dps for a 3/6 man.

Yes they do favor ranged dps with content, with bloated morale pools of mobs due to the high dps of certain classes.

The problem is competing with the Hunter and RK for a dps spot. Never going to end well unless they do something about it.

I just dont think more and more dps is the answer.

I agree with you its not the answer but that's the way it is and how it will stay.. because that's what makes money ppl pay to see big numbers its the reality of gaming these days.

[Areyekuwe]

It is hardly necessary for me to post, saves the aggravation.

Here is a good starting point,

Note the bold font:

If youre going to nerf a huge skill like Reveal weakness and then claim you will compensate that nerf with an increase to burglar damage. Then do it already and compensate the nerf. Stop playing around with this moderate damage increase and make a burglar single target competitive. Right now in end game they are nothing more than disable bots. If double disables wasnt a significant debuff then there would be zero reason to bring a burglar to the raid. A class only being useful for one skill is absurd. Can a developer please get a grip on the burglar, this has been out of hand for awhile now.

So, now we are told that SSG has some other idea about what people should be expected to do to the raids.

This does not change the fact that Burglar Class is not very usefull in any raid, to put it mildly. (Insert here something about one more hunter or RK in DPS role or a LM in support, RK / mini in heal and how they do everything we do better. So, people just know and very seldom add us to a group.

Based on the numbers seen I highly doubt this will impact anything for the burglar. Red line damage is still no were near competitive for 3 man and 6 man content versus other classes. The real lack they have is no AoE at all. So that leaves them to compete as a single target against a hunter. Lets look at a scenario...."TG Tier 3 5/6 need dps"....a hunter and a burg send you a tell. Which would you choose Vastin, seriously?

We are DPS and Support and we march straight out of the most famous book on the Middle Earth and all that

But we are intended to stay in The Shire and not do anything where effective contributions are expected. It so seems.

I'm sorry we are not a support class anymore 2 of our 3 trees are dps they just don't work like they should. Our "Support" line is only used in a 12 man raid and that is the only place it is ever used or can even function.

Just as it said in quote above, if we are getting a nerf and compensation for that, well just do it already. ON all skills that were affected. Please.

I honestly wish this change wasn't even announced...and please don't suggest that changing our rotations, stats or tactics will provide any noticeable increase in DPS. Much of our DPS comes from CA bleeds, IFA crits and obviously the big hitter of CdG, none of which were touched. Trivial boosts to subtle stab and crit chain skills, the latter of which are already going to be used as part of any competent burg's rotation when up, won't leave for "creativity" with respect to rotation tweaks.

Completely agree with all 4 quotes otherwise.

[Areyekuwe]

I'd say I really have no idea how you managed to nerf yourself via an update with nothing but numerical increases in it for burglars.

The OP's numbers look correct. Many of the burglar skills increased base damage by about 10-20%, as indicated by their tool tips - EXCEPTING a few of the fastest/most powerful skills. I'm not boosting those short term because I want to keep the skills in a better comparative range until I have a chance to finish my broader pass on the class over the next couple weeks.

Will this result in a 10-20% increase in DPS? Probably not, because, as noted, some of the biggest skills weren't boosted, or were boosted by a smaller value. Will it be 2%? I rather imagine that the Burglars are clever enough to parley this buff into a bigger increase than that through tweaks to rotations, stats and tactics.

-Vastin

We got a nerf to our damage through the RW.

Can we just get compensation to all the skills that were affected?

[Areyekuwe]

How is it condescension? He's saying "Look guys, you have WAY more time to fiddle around with these changes than I do. So I'm guessing you'll find creative ways to parlay them into a bigger increase than they seem on the surface." Whether you agree with that or not, it's still pretty much the opposite of condescension.

There is nothing to fiddle around with. Changes are tiny tiny, next to no change at all.

That line from the dev it kinda carries no real meaning, it's an embellishment, he has style. You know.

The person that posted about game based on the Burglar (class) story and pretty much looking down on effectiveness of Burglars

and no
we are not meant to be NPCes like barber or banker, well that poster has a VERY VALID point.

[jljohnson4]

We got a nerf to our damage through the RW.

Can we just get compensation to all the skills that were affected?

I agree with you. Something needs to replace what was taken. However I think gaining back the dps that was lost is the wrong way to go about it. Here's why. It's not just our skills that were impacted. It was everyone's. The nerf to RW, wasn't just a burg nerf. It was a nerf to the outgoing dps of every class. Take all the extra dps done by every member of a group because RW was up on a target. That is a burglar's contribution to dps. Every potential member of a 3/6/12/24 man that has a burglar present is feeling that loss. The larger the group, the greater the burglar's contribution to dps. Not to mention the massive amounts of dps lost to larger groups with more than 1 burglar. Now as primarily a pvp player, it would be interesting to see the total loss in dps to, let's say, a 6 man added back to the burglar's base damage. But that would be wildly unrealistic lol. I think the proper way to go about receiving the compensation we need is to start increasing damage in small increments instead of a blanket increase to everything. 5% here. 15% there. This skill now. A different skill later. Until we reach a good point over all. It might take some time but I'm excited to see what Vastin has in store for the class.

[Areyekuwe]

Posts like the one above is what is wrong with whole gaming community of old men playing games. Stagnation and overthinking, in the same time.

@jljohnson4

Yes it was removed from all these classes and they are just fine with RW benefit removed.

Burglar solo is not. Burglar in a group not and in 2 ways: overall and there is less of a reason to even get a burglar into a group.

Please do not overthink it. Burglar ability, nerfed. -This impacts Burglars.

Yes yes, yes

The Butterfly Effect: This effect grants the power to cause a hurricane in China to a butterfly flapping its wings in New Mexico. It may take a very long time, but the connection is real. If the butterfly had not flapped its wings at just the right point in space/time, the hurricane would not have happened.

But we are talking about Burglar class here, and I personally pretty much always cast RW, still do even for anticipated one-shot, it's a habit.

We were promised to receive compensation and we received a lot of praise about how we move fast are instant and look good on paper

This is all beside the point that it is pretty clear that RW nerf was done to make fellowship fights harder, that what you write about was the reason why it came about. But us Burglar class had to pay for it.

[J-Moneyforever]

Posts like the one above is what is wrong with whole gaming community of old men playing games. Stagnation and overthinking, in the same time.

@jljohnson4

Yes it was removed from all these classes and they are just fine with RW benefit removed.

Burglar solo is not. Burglar in a group not and in 2 ways: overall and there is less of a reason to even get a burglar into a group.

Please do not overthink it. Burglar ability, nerfed. -This impacts Burglars.

Yes yes, yes

The Butterfly Effect: This effect grants the power to cause a hurricane in China to a butterfly flapping its wings in New Mexico. It may take a very long time, but the connection is real. If the butterfly had not flapped its wings at just the right point in space/time, the hurricane would not have happened.

But we are talking about Burglar class here, and I personally pretty much always cast RW, still do even for anticipated one-shot, it's a habit.

We were promised to receive compensation and we received a lot of praise about how we move fast are instant and look good on paper

This is all beside the point that it is pretty clear that RW nerf was done to make fellowship fights harder, that what you write about was the reason why it came about. But us Burglar class had to pay for it.

I mean... You wanted throw knife to benefit from positional and stealth bonuses and not break stealth (LOL). And you wanted relish battle to heal you for a total of like 25% of your HP so like... Don't talk I guess.

[Areyekuwe]

I mean... You wanted throw knife to benefit from positional and stealth bonuses and not break stealth (LOL). And you wanted relish battle to heal you for a total of like 25% of your HP so like... Don't talk I guess.

I know you are talking to me, because you are quoting me. But I fail to grasp your point, it seems too subtle.

BTW, I still would not mind these things. 25% would be nice!
Hell I will settle for the god-mode, but then there is still world chat, oh that will make anyone reading it quit, even people that write there :P

But a dev responded after a few months and said what is going into production. -So, I am working with that.

He also said that we are fast, instant, good looking on paper and a few other things. -Based on this dev nice communication it is pretty clear that we are up the creek.

But anyhow, you point? I apreciate you talking to me directly and all, you know.

[Mithithil]

One might speculate on:

Yellow Capstone also allows RW at 10% if you spend the points and boost the LI enough
Blue "" 8.5% ""
Red "" 7.5% ""

as a compromise, thus the debuffing and raid line gets to use a serious RW, the higher dps lines have less RW but make up in individual dps for their more likely roles. You can take your redline into the raid, but at cost of reducing group dps for which your solo dps output will not compensate

Its a simplification and probably needs ranged dps to take a 3-5% nerf, and/or mobs to lose 10% morale or drop mob mits/resistances which may be getting to be too much work.

I play blue line most of the time, still seems a viable compromise for general pottering and deeding. Got enough yellow for some debuffs in 3 man stuff but the long stuns and interrupts are also appreciated by my fellows as long as nobody expects anything quick.

[jljohnson4]

Posts like the one above is what is wrong with whole gaming community of old men playing games. Stagnation and overthinking, in the same time.

@jljohnson4

Yes it was removed from all these classes and they are just fine with RW benefit removed.

Burglar solo is not. Burglar in a group not and in 2 ways

First: Umm rude.

Second: I am personally not having any problems clearing any solo content, so I am unable to relate. You might want to look into what you might be personally lacking to find the problem. I also have no issues what so ever getting into groups and completing group content... So again I cannot relate to your situation... Sorry. Looks to me like you could do with a little more thinking if you are having issues with basic game play... Most of us are doing just fine.

[Areyekuwe]

First: Umm rude.

Second: I am personally not having any problems clearing any solo content, so I am unable to relate. You might want to look into what you might be personally lacking to find the problem. I also have no issues what so ever getting into groups and completing group content... So again I cannot relate to your situation... Sorry. Looks to me like you could do with a little more thinking if you are having issues with basic game play... Most of us are doing just fine.

Good one. Thumbs up.