@Vastin - Beorning Tank Needs a Nerf

[Iluvata]

I think many people disagree that a nerf is necessary, that's all . We can agree to disagree, let the devs decide.

Yes, I know. I get it. I appreciate the conversations, but...



I mean this in the least possible offensive way (I know it is still going to be offensive, so I apologize in advance), but to the devs:

I believe that only the opinions of those who consistently tank end-game content T2/T3 should matter in this decision. The skill level is higher and the gear is maxed, so we are talking from experience, not speculation.

I am sincerely begging at least for a mild nerf to the bear to be considered so that we guards can have our main-tanking role back. It's all we do: tank. We don't heal like beornings.

[Hephburz-2]

Ok, so... I can't even begin to tell you how much you are wrong, but let's start with my own history.

I too play all 5 tanks, champion included, and have currently tanked the raid on 3 of those 5. I am from the Evernight server, since the beorning revamp I've seen.. 1 perhaps 2 bear tanks, and I have NEVER seen anyone leading a raid group asking specifically for a bear tank.

Now moving on.

Captain;

Captains are the sturdiest single target boss tanks in the game. It doesn't matter what you say - that is fact. As pointed out above the -15% incoming damage from battle hardened, is 90-100% uptime, given that sure strike reduces the cool down of battle shout by 1s every use. With a tome of defence and 100% uptime on tactics buff this is already -30% damage with 63% mits. Several Captains also rotate in the old BB jewellery for +10% more mits with a 33% uptime, not reliable, but it's still there. Then you throw in to arms for a further -15% taking top potential -% incoming damage from -30% to -45%.

Now you have to add in their 30-80% incoming healing, again, by far more than any other tank can achieve. (5% from man racial, 25% from defeat response trait, 30% banner, 20% shield brothers call).

Following on to their superior cool down skills... IHW will already add a further -20% incoming damage, exceptional in fight where others are not taking any damage. Last stand with a varied 1m 30s - 3m cool down because of trait line procs. SoD again with a varied 1m 30s - 2m cool down because of trait line procs. Finally fighting withdrawal. The captain also has the ability to keep up around 5-7k HPS if they know what they are doing.

(I fail to see already from a dissection of the captain class what exactly the bear can offer better, aggro maybe?)....

Guardians;

This will be shorter... A perma 70% mits, with those mits going to 80-100% when used with litany given the fact the skill is broken and allows you to instantly rebuild fortification even though you shouldn't be allowed to be. One of the tanks with the most cool down skills if you are able to trait correctly, bring on the pain, redirect, pledge, juggernaut, warriors heart and even now catch a breath could be considered a cooldown skill. Guardians are also more than capable of having 10k HPS, seen it and done it myself, so dunno where you get your information from. They remain one of the best multi-target tanks and a close second to single target tanking, behind captains.

Warden/Champion;

Neither are superior at this role given the lack of love, but wardens in my eyes remain one of the best multi-target tanks, despite their DC nerf, and this is because of the sheer ease of aggro management on a warden. Coupled with their own self-healing I fail to see why a warden cannot perform in the right situation. Champions are really there for the lols in the current game climate, they don't offer anything to the fellowship that another tank can't do better.

Beornings;

1 cool down skill in TH. Relatively good self healing matching that of guardians and potentially a good warden, and surpassing captains. Relatively good aggro management in the terms of extensive force-taunts. However, again, I fail to see what bears specifically offer to the fellowship or the group as a tank that another tank cannot do, or do better.

If you want to raise the debuffs arguement, I will counter with the fact we already take a beorning healer which is just as capable of doing the same. I will agree, beornings are sturdy tanks, and excel at their role, but no more or less than a captain or guardian currently, where those two classes can provide more, especially to the fellowship, where what the bear offers can still be offered in the terms of a bear healer...

[Iluvata]

Ok, so... I can't even begin to tell you how much you are wrong, but let's start with my own history.

I too play all 5 tanks, champion included, and have currently tanked the raid on 3 of those 5. I am from the Evernight server, since the beorning revamp I've seen.. 1 perhaps 2 bear tanks, and I have NEVER seen anyone leading a raid group asking specifically for a bear tank.

Now moving on.

Captain;

Captains are the sturdiest single target boss tanks in the game. It doesn't matter what you say - that is fact. As pointed out above the -15% incoming damage from battle hardened, is 90-100% uptime, given that sure strike reduces the cool down of battle shout by 1s every use. With a tome of defence and 100% uptime on tactics buff this is already -30% damage with 63% mits. Several Captains also rotate in the old BB jewellery for +10% more mits with a 33% uptime, not reliable, but it's still there. Then you throw in to arms for a further -15% taking top potential -% incoming damage from -30% to -45%.

Now you have to add in their 30-80% incoming healing, again, by far more than any other tank can achieve. (5% from man racial, 25% from defeat response trait, 30% banner, 20% shield brothers call).

Following on to their superior cool down skills... IHW will already add a further -20% incoming damage, exceptional in fight where others are not taking any damage. Last stand with a varied 1m 30s - 3m cool down because of trait line procs. SoD again with a varied 1m 30s - 2m cool down because of trait line procs. Finally fighting withdrawal. The captain also has the ability to keep up around 5-7k HPS if they know what they are doing.

(I fail to see already from a dissection of the captain class what exactly the bear can offer better, aggro maybe?)....

Guardians;

This will be shorter... A perma 70% mits, with those mits going to 80-100% when used with litany given the fact the skill is broken and allows you to instantly rebuild fortification even though you shouldn't be allowed to be. One of the tanks with the most cool down skills if you are able to trait correctly, bring on the pain, redirect, pledge, juggernaut, warriors heart and even now catch a breath could be considered a cooldown skill. Guardians are also more than capable of having 10k HPS, seen it and done it myself, so dunno where you get your information from. They remain one of the best multi-target tanks and a close second to single target tanking, behind captains.

Warden/Champion;

Neither are superior at this role given the lack of love, but wardens in my eyes remain one of the best multi-target tanks, despite their DC nerf, and this is because of the sheer ease of aggro management on a warden. Coupled with their own self-healing I fail to see why a warden cannot perform in the right situation. Champions are really there for the lols in the current game climate, they don't offer anything to the fellowship that another tank can't do better.

Beornings;

1 cool down skill in TH. Relatively good self healing matching that of guardians and potentially a good warden, and surpassing captains. Relatively good aggro management in the terms of extensive force-taunts. However, again, I fail to see what bears specifically offer to the fellowship or the group as a tank that another tank cannot do, or do better.

If you want to raise the debuffs arguement, I will counter with the fact we already take a beorning healer which is just as capable of doing the same. I will agree, beornings are sturdy tanks, and excel at their role, but no more or less than a captain or guardian currently, where those two classes can provide more, especially to the fellowship, where what the bear offers can still be offered in the terms of a bear healer...

Thanks for the response, but aside from some nice corrections about the captain, you proved nothing here. And your post was exceptionally biased to highlight the strengths of the other tanks and skirt over the strengths of the beorning. Nice.

I know how good the other tanks are, I play them as well.

I already said in a previous post that I know Captain is a great single-target tank. I don't dispute that, but it can't hold up as a true number 1 tank.

I wish you would all stop with the "Oh we just have 1 CD". It lasts 25 seconds...it is basically juggernaut and pledge combined, but better!

Please stop trying to tell me I am wrong. For the love of god just take a beorning into the raid and you will all understand. And if your beorning struggles, find a new one. People with less than a month of Beorning experience are tanking T2/3 now.

I should have posted this in a forum with people willing to listen.

[Hephburz-2]

Its got nothing to do with people willing to listen, it's you - adamant that beornings are OP regardless of what anyone else in this thread posts and unwilling to see that that just isn't the case because your mind is made up and you just want people to agree with you rather than raise valid points against your OP.

[Estelrandir]

@Iluvata: Since I don´t have a tank beo, but I am currently collecting the equipment for it, I would like to ask you something:


for id 1 t2/3, do you tank the add group od dragons? if yes, do you stand still for the whole fight or are you kiting this group?

[Naranor]

Ok, so... I can't even begin to tell you how much you are wrong, but let's start with my own history.
Captains are the sturdiest single target boss tanks in the game. It doesn't matter what you say - that is fact. As pointed out above the -15% incoming damage from battle hardened, is 90-100% uptime, given that sure strike reduces the cool down of battle shout by 1s every use. With a tome of defence and 100% uptime on tactics buff this is already -30% damage with 63% mits. Several Captains also rotate in the old BB jewellery for +10% more mits with a 33% uptime, not reliable, but it's still there. Then you throw in to arms for a further -15% taking top potential -% incoming damage from -30% to -45%.

Now you have to add in their 30-80% incoming healing, again, by far more than any other tank can achieve. (5% from man racial, 25% from defeat response trait, 30% banner, 20% shield brothers call).

Following on to their superior cool down skills... IHW will already add a further -20% incoming damage, exceptional in fight where others are not taking any damage. Last stand with a varied 1m 30s - 3m cool down because of trait line procs. SoD again with a varied 1m 30s - 2m cool down because of trait line procs. Finally fighting withdrawal. The captain also has the ability to keep up around 5-7k HPS if they know what they are doing.

(I fail to see already from a dissection of the captain class what exactly the bear can offer better, aggro maybe?)....

Sorry, but you do not understand basic game mechanics.

1)at this moment guardian permanet have in raid 77-81%mitigation, while cappy cant reach more then 68% phisical and 70% tactical - it's can be reach only with herald so let say 68% permanet (reality 65% pm and 67%tm - this numbers you will have when need it). It's means that guardian with 300k hp and 77% mits and tome of defence(guardians also can use it) needs 1449275 damage to be killed (1754385 with 81%mits - we will not use it). Cappy with 300k hp 68% mits and tome of defence - 1041666, with sure strike, non permanent bh and tome of defence (total - 30%) - 1339285. In my opinion 1449275 permanet hp better then 1339285 non permanet which can be reached only in static fight.
OFC cappy also has to arms (total - 45%)which raised hp to 1442307, it's still lower then guardian level. But stop guardian also can press some skills and has redirect (total -45%), and guardian has 2006688.
I think that 2006688 much better then 1442307. I recomend to calculate youself what happend when guardian will press litany (and few fortification buffs) and cappy ihw/SoD (but result will be that with litany guardian has same hp as cappy with SoD, with lithany and 1 fortification buff guardian much stronger, and yes guardians can use fortification while litany).

2)Incoming healing is cool thing but, please learn meta, at this moment cappy has not incoming healing banner. Only in throne incoming healing was useful on some bosses. In Abyss and Anvil tank or oneshoted or can be healed.

3)Yellow Cappy has lowelest hps from all tanks, most hps skill is ered mithrin athelas essence. Also we cant forgot that any heal will work with same proporsion as 1442307/2006688. Yep guardian with warrior heart has aditional 2006688 hp

4)Fighting withdrawal 2min cooldown while guardian has 30s cooldown. If we speak only like +60% parry - skill do not work with antistan, and anyway worster then juggernaut or pledge.

5)SoD cooldown can be reduced in fight. Sorry but, do you play only on forum or have any game exp? SoD cooldown can be reduced by incoming crits. All Throne, all Abyss, 3/4 Anvil bosses have not crits. Only some trash mobs before bosses have.

6)"Last stand with a varied 1m 30s - 3m cool down because of trait line procs." what, what, WHAT. Everyone who read it lost part of mind. Please show video with 1m 30s - 3m. Do you still play in helm deep in 2013 year? Now 2019. Last stand - very bad emergency skill, which can be used only 1 time for fight. If i will have choose last stand, or permanet 3% from herald or +10s to bh or length of SoD on imbued weapon, +2 targeth to challenge, same challenge modificator as other tanks, i will choose any of it without a doubt.

Ofc cappy has some aditional skills - telling mark, standard of war, which helps to raid. +10% hp and to arms - cant help to raid, because yellow cappy will be in group with healers, supports and all of them do not need it to survive.
But interruption, coraption removing and haste are terrible in compensation.

I hope that person who think, that cappy best solotargeth (it's means that captain not tank) tank, can prove it with math.

[Hildilas]

You guys fighting over sth that vastin already said before the release of the Beo Update, talking about who of the best tanks is most op while wardens are sitting in the corner quietly sobbing xD
(Even though we completed the raid t2 with a warden tank but a main Tank should be able to Tank t3 raid as Well)

We do not know what they are going to nerf about the beo but they will. And because vastin already said that the beo tank might be a little op He will probably do sth about that no matter how much you guys are throwing arguments and numbers at each other.
They Said they do not want op skills in the game anymore which grant high mits etc. The Beo panic is sth they are looking at probably. Same with dunadain and last stand.


Do Not get me wrong. I hate all that nerfing. I am just saying that I am sure they are already looking into that and it is proven that they esp do what palantir players think. That is what palantir is for.

[Blato]

Dude, leave me alone.

I mean seriously, stop posting in this thread you troll.

You are not right, those are not even close to the only sources of physical damage in the raid.
You are not right, juggernaught is not as strong as TH.
You are incorrectly comparing GP to Counter when that is not even what I did.
I know about all the guardians buffs. I play ALL the tank classes as I said a million times. I am telling you from experience that the Beorning is much more powerful than any tank.


Stop posting in my thread, dsltn07.

Must be the funniest post i've ever read.
The only relevant instance boss where beornings superior phys mits are usefull is last boss TG t3. In pretty much all other relevant boss fights, Beo has a disadvantage because of tactical dmg - compared to guard. I don't understand why you focus on mits so much.
As long as you don't get oneshot, your mits shouldn't matter that much.

[Chris91]

I think both sides are wrong here somewhat. On one side we have the guy who claims Beos are better tanks than Cappys in any situation - which they aren't, Cappys are still the best boss tanks

On the other side we have the guy who clearly plays his Beo wrong otherwise he would not claim they are underpowered on every occasion

Cappy have good passive surviveability, defensive cooldowns and dps buffs, but really lack in the aggro department
Guardians have great aggro generation and passive surviveability, but lack useful defensive cooldowns vs tactical damage and dps buffs

Beos come close second in all categories, they have great passive surviveability, a useful cooldown vs tactical damage, great aggro generation and great dps buffs

Beos are THE BEST tanks overall, not the best in every category. But by far the best to pick when a little bit of everything is required. I'd still pick a Cappy as boss tank because of motivated, red banner and his cooldowns in Anvil. But the only reason to take a Guard over a Beo is kiting the adds in Anvil ID1 because Guard sprint ignores slows and perma force taunting boss 4. Otherwise Beo tanks are just better

Literally the only downside of Beo tanks is that Beo healers are equally strong and their offensive buffs don't stack

[Mukor]

Defensivewise there aren´t this big differneces between the tanks (taking out wardens and champs, which are for me dpser). one take mor physical on more tactical.
Panics too are nearly balanced.
offensive buffing cappies has the advantageesspecially they go yellow red for that they suck at masstanking.
the biggest advantage of beos are their bundle of aoeforceskills especially with a addrespawn under 1 minute, but this could easely compensate by removing all except one aoe taunt on beos or reduce challenge of guards back to 30s cd.

[Hildilas]

Defensivewise there aren´t this big differneces between the tanks (taking out wardens and champs, which are for me dpser). one take mor physical on more tactical.
Panics too are nearly balanced.
offensive buffing cappies has the advantageesspecially they go yellow red for that they suck at masstanking.
the biggest advantage of beos are their bundle of aoeforceskills especially with a addrespawn under 1 minute, but this could easely compensate by removing all except one aoe taunt on beos or reduce challenge of guards back to 30s cd.

Again... imo..Captain should not be a main tank and warden should not be a main dd.....through years of bad balancing both blue lines we have this now. It is more of an accident.
Cappy should be Like the ultimate supporter...Red=dd Support, blue = healing Support, yellow = Tank Support (!!)

The Question is does the Beo have too many Aggro skills or do other tanks do Not have enough.
I am in for the last case. I am sick of nerfing everything.

[Mukor]

Again... imo..Captain should not be a main tank and warden should not be a main dd.....through years of bad balancing both blue lines we have this now. It is more of an accident.
Cappy should be Like the ultimate supporter...Red=dd Support, blue = healing Support, yellow = Tank Support (!!)

The Question is does the Beo have too many Aggro skills or do other tanks do Not have enough.
I am in for the last case. I am sick of nerfing everything.

In any case the number/CD of the skills must be balanced to the respawn time. For this case one skill with one minute CD isn't enough, gives the other a big advantage.
Completely ignoring that the system in which we must taunt to keep the aggro is bad such skills shouldn't be necessary in two scenarios aggro Pingpong between two tanks or a fix get it back after reset (death/enemy skill).if we would get back to Such a system it wouldn't matter how much taunts you've, you only need two one mass and one single.

[Happychappy]

I think all the tanks are in a fairly good spot at the moment. Maybe the Warden Tank needs some work, not sure i don't really play one.

It is pointless nit picking over which is the best, just as long as all can do their roles fairly evenly, which i think they do. There will always be matters of opinion whether misinformed, lack of knowledge/experience or own self interests etc. It's unlikely everyone will agree with each other all the time. It's a never ending circle. Far bigger imbalances in the game than this.

This is a pointless Thread.....let it die a slow death guys.




From the most Obnoxious and Notorious Troll on the forum... apparently :P

[Hildilas]

I think all the tanks are in a fairly good spot at the moment. Maybe the Warden Tank needs some work, not sure i don't really play one.

It is pointless nit picking over which is the best, just as long as all can do their roles fairly evenly, which i think they do. There will always be matters of opinion whether misinformed, lack of knowledge/experience or own self interests etc. It's unlikely everyone will agree with each other all the time. It's a never ending circle. Far bigger imbalances in the game than this.

This is a pointless Thread.....let it die a slow death guys.




From the most Obnoxious and Notorious Troll on the forum... apparently :P

Agreed. Instead of crying for nerfs we should Support each class by crying for buffs - If really needed.

[Mukor]

Agreed. Instead of crying for nerfs we should Support each class by crying for buffs - If really needed.

Nerfing or buffing doesn't matter it has the same goal->balance. Just two different ways to one goal. But sometimes it is easier to nerf one class instead to buff the rest.

[Aedfrith]

I think all the tanks are in a fairly good spot at the moment. Maybe the Warden Tank needs some work, not sure i don't really play one.

It does, but otherwise surely it's a good thing that all tanks are distinctive?
The worrying subtext I'm perhaps reading into about some of the class feedback we've had is that all classes are going to get homogenised.
DO NOT DO THIS, VASTIN. All classes should, and must, be different and each must be able to do something special that no other class can - otherwise it will be completely overlooked for groups.
Currently both Burglar, especially post-nerf, and Champion are in a very bad spot from this perspective.

Surely it should be easy to change flat numerical values in traits to percentages - this would make some of the "dead" traits like finesse rating and +stat, as well as champ armour debuff, FAR more interesting.

[dsltn07]

Let me first say that I prefer class diversity. I think every class should ideally have two to three viable trait lines.

The biggest problem with this is that the majority of balance issues involve healers and tanks. The vast majority of the players that heal or tank do so on guardians and minstrels because they are the oldest, simplest, most consistent classes for those roles. The problem that has come up repeatedly through lotro’s history is that one of the alternate classes becomes a strong competitor for one of those main roles. When this happens, the large number of players that main guardian/minstrel begin to complain, very LOUDLY that their class has been left behind. This typically results in the alternate class being nerfed to oblivion. The best and saddest example of this has been the warden tank. Instead of actually balancing the alternate class, Turbine or SSG has seriously nerfed the alternate class until its competing role is useless.

THIS is why I have been vehemently opposing nerfs to Beo. There are currently very few people presenting the opposing viewpoint, and there are a LOT of mini/guardians currently asking for overly severe nerfs to Beo.

Strengths:
-Currently bees and crush bring roughly the same dps support of a cappy tank.
-Blue Beo has higher possible Pmits than other tank classes.
-Thickened Hide is one of the better cooldown skills in the game, though it is the only one, and you can definitely be killed while using it. Tiered up adds in T2/3 anvil for example will kill you straight through hide.
-Self healing is about on par with catch a breath, stronger than cappy of course.
-Max morale buff allows higher morale, BUT this is a trade off for generally lower crit defense, Tmit, morale, and armor values provided by a heavy shield.
-Sacrifice is great for saving healers and dps from strong targeted attacks like blue/purple eye.
-Counter is good for reducing damage and building guarded stacks. It also helps with wrath management through counter attack.

Weaknesses:
-Avoidances are generally MUCH lower than other tanks due to built-in bonuses from traits and skill being nonexistent.
-Self buff skills also provide much less damage reduction through our skill rotation than other tank classes.
-Skill set is limited due to our bear form morale/armor buffs. Using man form while taking physical damage is not really possible without dying.
(I would personally rather the armor buff be made permanently passive and the morale buff lowered or removed to make up for our lack of a shield.)
-Max Tmit is lower than guardian by 5% (substantial amount, we are talking 17% more damage to Beo)
-Legacies are almost nonexistent for tank.
-No heavy shield is a serious stat hole that has to be compensated for through gearing and traits.
-Blue traits are abysmally poor. Recuperate should be an inherent blue skill and be replaced with other buffs. Most of the trait line is built around sacrifice, recuperate, self damage buffs, armor crush, and bringing mitigation’s up to par with a guardian through 5% mit traits, and the 10% buff which takes up two passive traits and makes a main skill useless. This all could be considered a strength if you think about it being just worse than a cappy, and just worse than a guardian, but having some of each strengths.
-The self damage buff traits are just poor.
-Our damage reduction skills through slam and claw swipe are also very poor.

I feel this is a pretty fair overview for tank Beo, please feel free to add or criticize. I thought it would be good to have a generalized list because a lot of comparative strengths from other tanks were being undervalued and Beo strengths being overstated.

[Mukor]

Let me first say that I prefer class diversity. I think every class should ideally have two to three viable trait lines.

The biggest problem with this is that the majority of balance issues involve healers and tanks. The vast majority of the players that heal or tank do so on guardians and minstrels because they are the oldest, simplest, most consistent classes for those roles. The problem that has come up repeatedly through lotro’s history is that one of the alternate classes becomes a strong competitor for one of those main roles. When this happens, the large number of players that main guardian/minstrel begin to complain, very LOUDLY that their class has been left behind. This typically results in the alternate class being nerfed to oblivion. The best and saddest example of this has been the warden tank. Instead of actually balancing the alternate class, Turbine or SSG has seriously nerfed the alternate class until its competing role is useless.

THIS is why I have been vehemently opposing nerfs to Beo. There are currently very few people presenting the opposing viewpoint, and there are a LOT of mini/guardians currently asking for overly severe nerfs to Beo.

Strengths:
-Currently bees and crush bring roughly the same dps support of a cappy tank.
-Blue Beo has higher possible Pmits than other tank classes.
-Thickened Hide is one of the better cooldown skills in the game, though it is the only one, and you can definitely be killed while using it. Tiered up adds in T2/3 anvil for example will kill you straight through hide.
-Self healing is about on par with catch a breath, stronger than cappy of course.
-Max morale buff allows higher morale, BUT this is a trade off for generally lower crit defense, Tmit, morale, and armor values provided by a heavy shield.
-Sacrifice is great for saving healers and dps from strong targeted attacks like blue/purple eye.
-Counter is good for reducing damage and building guarded stacks. It also helps with

Weaknesses:
-Avoidances are generally MUCH lower than other tanks due to built-in bonuses from traits and skill being nonexistent.
-Self buff skills also provide much less damage reduction through our skill rotation than other tank classes.
-Skill set is limited due to our bear form morale/armor buffs. Using man form while taking physical damage is not really possible without dying.
(I would personally rather the armor buff be made permanently passive and the morale buff lowered or removed to make up for our lack of a shield.)
-Max Tmit is lower than guardian by 5% (substantial amount, we are talking 17% more damage to Beo)
-Legacies are almost nonexistent for tank.
-No heavy shield is a serious stat hole that has to be compensated for through gearing and traits.
-Blue traits are abysmally poor. Recuperate should be an inherent blue skill and be replaced with other buffs. Most of the trait line is built around sacrifice, recuperate, self damage buffs, armor crush, and bringing mitigation’s up to par with a guardian through 5% mit traits, and the 10% buff which takes up two passive traits and makes a main skill useless. This all could be considered a strength if you think about it being just worse than a cappy, and just worse than a guardian, but having some of each strengths.
-The self damage buff traits are just poor.
-Our damage reduction skills through slam and claw swipe are also very poor.

I feel this is a pretty fair overview for tank Beo, please feel free to add or criticize. I thought it would be good to have a generalized list because a lot of comparative strengths from other tanks were being undervalued and Beo strengths being overstated.

That's not the problem. The problem is that they don't know the border for balancing. They create a new class for this role. It sucks. They buff it but not to the level the current are, they buff it far above this level. Then they nerf it under this level and so on.
In case of wardens they make their whole system obsolete. Wardens were and are avoidance tanks but you don't need them. Last time that was needed was with 105 and in this point they were far to strong and did a 80% dpser while tanking. Ot Was always good to have a guard + mini in the one group and a warden + healing rk in the other.
But with HD they killed this whole system and naked cappies to strong so now you take a cappy which makes dmg support and if needed He switch with one click to the offtank.
And so on.
Now the same with beos, noone took them after release now they were buffed far over the goal. Especially in the term of aggro managment are three aoe forces godlike. Every other class need to time their taunts beos can nearly spam them.
In the other aspects of tanking they are balanced to cappies and guards.

[Blato]

The only aspect where beorning tanks are overpowered is the self-healing, you can get composure from red and heal for 40% of your morale over 8s every 14s.

While it is overtime (which isn't good for a tank) and you have to go into man-form (risk getting oneshot if not well geared) the magnitude and spamability is too much for a tank.


I do not think the taunts are that much of a problem, since 2 of the AoE taunts have melee range, which pretty much means they are ONLY there to keep stuff on you, not to pull anything.
The other 2 are pretty much the same as guardians fray and challenge but with much lower range - and beorning has no big AoE to get spread out npcs grouped up in the beginning like guard does - which means you are going to have to use thunderous roar before anyone did much damage, effectively copying almost no threat.

[Happychappy]

The only aspect where beorning tanks are overpowered is the self-healing, you can get composure from red and heal for 40% of your morale over 8s every 14s.

While it is overtime (which isn't good for a tank) and you have to go into man-form (risk getting oneshot if not well geared) the magnitude and spamability is too much for a tank.


I do not think the taunts are that much of a problem, since 2 of the AoE taunts have melee range, which pretty much means they are ONLY there to keep stuff on you, not to pull anything.
The other 2 are pretty much the same as guardians fray and challenge but with much lower range - and beorning has no big AoE to get spread out npcs grouped up in the beginning like guard does - which means you are going to have to use thunderous roar before anyone did much damage, effectively copying almost no threat.

Personally i would have made Composure 5-25% incoming healing instead and let Hearten do the job with that. High morale tanks would benefit a little less then, but it is a red line trait anyway.

But lots of other classes do have self healing and some are very strong also.

[Osglinthor]

Whenever someone mentions that class has more than one trait line viable and because of that should be #### in other trait line anything he says after that or before that becomes irelevent.If you want to go that way remove 2 specs aviable completly.So you end up being forced to quest in tank specs or for example yellow spec lm.There is not a single reasonable argument as to why should 1 trait line be weaker than other itentionly.Or why should class with 2 trait lines be weaker than class with 1 trait line aviable.Its not like i dont have to make gear and lis for both trait lines.Cretin level of argument so ####ing tired of it.

[mrfigglesworth]

I see this thread as a win in the sense that ideas are being discussed and defended and picked apart. maybe nothing will come of it all, but it's important to have your ideas and perception challenged. there are a lot of people who have t3 experience disagreeing with meta concepts right now, and that is a good thing. It is a good indicator that even though things may be imbalanced, they are not too far off from balanced to be considered problematic. Maybe beorning is best in every or most situation. Maybe not. It's an indication of overall healthy competitive tanking environment, and should continue to be discussed at length, as long as actual data and accomplishments are involved.

[Happychappy]

[QUOTE=dsltn07;7917251]Let me first say that I prefer class diversity. I think every class should ideally have two to three viable trait lines.

The biggest problem with this is that the majority of balance issues involve healers and tanks. The vast majority of the players that heal or tank do so on guardians and minstrels because they are the oldest, simplest, most consistent classes for those roles. The problem that has come up repeatedly through lotro’s history is that one of the alternate classes becomes a strong competitor for one of those main roles. When this happens, the large number of players that main guardian/minstrel begin to complain, very LOUDLY that their class has been left behind. This typically results in the alternate class being nerfed to oblivion. The best and saddest example of this has been the warden tank. Instead of actually balancing the alternate class, Turbine or SSG has seriously nerfed the alternate class until its competing role is useless.

THIS is why I have been vehemently opposing nerfs to Beo. There are currently very few people presenting the opposing viewpoint, and there are a LOT of mini/guardians currently asking for overly severe nerfs to Beo.

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I agree. It does seem to go this way unfortunately.

But i still see Guardians and Minis getting groups and i am not seeing "need Beorning" spam, Just "need Tank" or "need Healer spam".

A Beorning nerf is not needed at all. A few small Beorning buffs/reworks are still needed though in some areas.

I think the Hunter and possibly RK damage may need toning down slightly though. This would then give Champs and other dps classes a better fighting chance of getting into groups imo.

[Mukor]

The only aspect where beorning tanks are overpowered is the self-healing, you can get composure from red and heal for 40% of your morale over 8s every 14s.

While it is overtime (which isn't good for a tank) and you have to go into man-form (risk getting oneshot if not well geared) the magnitude and spamability is too much for a tank.


I do not think the taunts are that much of a problem, since 2 of the AoE taunts have melee range, which pretty much means they are ONLY there to keep stuff on you, not to pull anything.
The other 2 are pretty much the same as guardians fray and challenge but with much lower range - and beorning has no big AoE to get spread out npcs grouped up in the beginning like guard does - which means you are going to have to use thunderous roar before anyone did much damage, effectively copying almost no threat.

And which classes steal aoe aggro. Excactly melee and evemif a rk does it you can run after them and get them back. This possiblity guards don't have with their minute cd.
And even without loosing aggro in a lot of cases we need to taunt in under a minute. Through the spawn time.
Three aoe taunts even if they're melee are to much. They could make the two melee to threatgenerating skills simmilar to shield taunt but no forces.

[dsltn07]

And which classes steal aoe aggro. Excactly melee and evemif a rk does it you can run after them and get them back. This possiblity guards don't have with their minute cd.
And even without loosing aggro in a lot of cases we need to taunt in under a minute. Through the spawn time.
Three aoe taunts even if they're melee are to much. They could make the two melee to threatgenerating skills simmilar to shield taunt but no forces.

Biting edge is not typically viable for higher tier content because it requires man form. So that already drops it to two melee taunts: Maul 30s cd, and thunder 45s cd.

Also consider that our skills do not explicitly generate agro like guardians do to my knowledge except for reflect threat that is directly tied to vigilant and thunderous.